Transgender Thread.

[ryzno]

You make a good point how does "they" work in other languages ?

@huskeR32 tree'd me...

 

[huskeR32]

@huskeR32 tree'd me...

It sounds like your Spanish is stronger than mine - I certainly wouldn't feel confident in my ability to go to Mexico and communicate with the locals! - so if I've missed any nuance, please do chime in.

Didn't mean to step on your toes by answering his question, I was just already typing up my post when I saw him ask it .

 

[TenEightyOne]

In some languages there is no seperate word for "gender" (as in identity). They use sex and gender interchangebly. I am curious if other languages make that difference though.

That's the case in US English as opposed to International English, according to the US dictionary definitions posted way back in this thread (or elsewhere at GTP, I forget).

On that bombshell, I speak Spanish too, not perfect but, I'd be fine if I went to Mexico. That said, they have specific words depending on if you are talking to a man or woman/boy or girl.

That's also true in English, it's common (if becoming unpopular) to talk about waiters and waitresses, actors and actresses, we have all kinds of gendered nouns despite having no actual gender system (e.g. le/la das/die/der). French has an ungendered "they" (on) in addition to gendered they (ils/elles), so it's do-able.

 

[PocketZeven]

I'm not fluent in Spanish, but I know some. "Ellas" = they/them if you're referring to a woman, or a group that's entirely women. "Ellos" = they/them if you're referring to a man, or a group that has at least one male member.

So, the language already dictates that "ellos" can serve a neutral purpose, even though it's the "masculine" version of the word. Perhaps non-binary folks in Spanish-speaking languages would just utilize that already extant flexibility?

I am curious if a native speaker agrees with that. In dutch "hun" (they) is plural. As far as I am aware isnt used for individuals.

I am just starting trying to understand non-binary as a gender, but have difficulty understanding. Because as far as I know sex defines your biology and sexuality defines your sexual preference.

I know of intersex or androgany, but I have a lot of difficulty understanding non-binary. In my head it just feels like the question if I am ethnically chinese, but feel dutch and then deciding you are neither chinese and neither dutch, but end up as both. I would not understand the feelign of being neither.

What is the main difference in feeling as both genders vs no-gender?

French has an ungendered "they" (on) in addition to gendered they (ils/elles), so it's do-able.

"on" (we/us) is plural though and not an individual. I dont think it is used as pronoun for an individual at all.

 

[huskeR32]

I am curious if a native speaker agrees with that. In dutch "hun" (they) is plural. As far as I am aware isnt used for individuals.

Ah, yes, my answer was only dealing with plurals. Singular of ellos/ellas is, I believe, el/ella. That would leave one without a neutral word when referring to a singular person. That's when I would assume the speakers would either invent a word, or simply request to be referred to as one or the other of their preference. Languages aren't so unyielding as to make this problem unsolvable.

I am just starting trying to understand non-binary as a gender, but have difficulty understanding. Because as far as I know sex defines your biology and sexuality defines your sexual preference.

As @TexRex already pointed out, there is no relationship between sex, gender and sexual preference. So, yes, you're correct on sex and sexual preference, but neither of those has any bearing on gender (though many conflate sex and gender either out of genuine unawareness, or out of a deliberate refusal to recognize the distinction).

Perhaps your confusion is stemming from trying to incorporate sex and preference into what gender is?

What is the main difference in feeling as both genders vs no-gender?

I'm not sure there is much of a distinction here. Either way, a person saying that they're neither or that they're both are probably trying to communicate the same thing - that they don't feel like the traditional, rigid, male-or-female dichotomy accurately describes them.

 

[PocketZeven]

Perhaps your confusion is stemming from trying to incorporate sex and preference into what gender is?

I'm not sure there is much of a distinction here. Either way, a person saying that they're neither or that they're both are probably trying to communicate the same thing - that they don't feel like the traditional, rigid, male-or-female dichotomy accurately describes them.

The point was made that in many languages and cultures there is no "gender" (as in identity). That makes understanding "gender" so difficult. I might be wrong but there is not (yet) such a concept in the cultures and languages I am familiar with.

So non-binary person could be seen as both? Can a hermaphrodite (intersex) be seen as non-binary?

 

[killerjimbag]

Interesting article.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5428701

 

[TexRex]

Perhaps it's just how I see sexuality ('the opposite', 'the same', 'either', or 'neither' / hetero, homo, bi, A-). If I state myself as a heterosexual male (sexuality - gender), it's simple to understand my partner would not be a homosexual male or female (for instance). I was wondering if stating that a non-binary person was either a heterosexual (opposite) or homosexual (same) undermined their gender since it assumes one state in order for them to be attracted to the same or opposite, therefore leaving bisexual or Asexual as the only two 'safe' options (if we're applying labels)

Not trying to pick fault, just curious.

I...I don't know.

If someone who was identified at birth as a particular gender can not deviate from that identity and still be homosexual, I have to imagine that one who deviates from that identity at birth can not be pegged *cough* as having a certain sexual preference.

For all I know, there are "male" trans individuals out there, those who were identified as female at birth, who are attracted to "female" trans individuals.

I jokingly asked a gay friend if he could be attracted to a really butch lesbian, to which he chuckled and replied, "I haven't been yet."

 

[Danoff]

Interesting article.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5428701

There is the counter-point, which is transgender regret stories, some of which end up in suicide. Is counselling someone to reconsider transgender therapies automatically conversion therapy? I'd hate to see that be the case. Seems like defining what is "conversion therapy" would be fraught with problems.

 

[Famine]

In the UK you literally can't get your passport changed to anything except for male or female.

There is a good reason for a passport (and other official identity documents) to remain a reflection of your physiological gender rather than your psychological one. It's so that you can be identified when you cannot identify yourself - such as when you are unconscious and require appropriate medical treatment for your own medical history, or dead and your loved ones want to bury the right otherwise-unidentifiable remains.

I am just starting trying to understand non-binary as a gender, but have difficulty understanding. Because as far as I know sex defines your biology and sexuality defines your sexual preference.

I know of intersex or androgany, but I have a lot of difficulty understanding non-binary. In my head it just feels like the question if I am ethnically chinese, but feel dutch and then deciding you are neither chinese and neither dutch, but end up as both. I would not understand the feelign of being neither.

In this context, gender is not a reflection of biology, and in no context is it a reflection of sexual preference. Gender is what you identify as.

Nationality is an interesting one, because your ethnicity is a matter of genetics and physiology (like chromosomal and physiological gender are), but your nationality is a matter of identity. This would be more like if there were only two possible nations on Earth and most people identified as one or the other (which matched their ethnicity), but some identified as the opposite, some as both equally, some as neither, and some as parts of one and parts of the other - and which may shift on a momentary basis.

What is the main difference in feeling as both genders vs no-gender?

If you feel both genders you feel that you have some parts of either identity. If you feel none then you do not have parts of either.

This reflects back to earlier points @Danoff made about gender stereotypes - how can one decide you have male and female identifiers without first deciding what makes males male and females female, and how can you do that without referring back to gender stereotypes?

So non-binary person could be seen as both?

No, that would be genderfluid. Non-binary is specifically someone who does not identify as either because they do not perceive gender as an exclusionary one-or-the-other thing.

Can a hermaphrodite (intersex) be seen as non-binary?

Not intrinsically (although they may identify as such) because intersex disorders and hermaphroditism (which are different things) are physiological not psychological. Gender in this context is what you identify as, not what your chromosomes say or what physiology they produce.

 

[Moglet]

Thanks for the explanation. As you already pointed out, it doesnt help that the community themselves have trouble "labeling" yet some can find offence in mislabeling even when there is no malicious intent. Like within ethnic groups, slurs its kind of unanimous what is offensive and what not. Are there any definitive answers to the definion of LGBTQ+?

This is why I rarely take offence if people use terminology that is considered rude, lots of people genuinely don't know what terms they should use and what is off limits.

This is interesting thread for people from cultures where gender doesn't really exist, in every culture there are some expectations for males and females in society, but that's only expectation. English culture is trying to give label on something that can't be labeled because everybody is an individual.

That's a very good point and it's certainly interesting to hear how other cultures approach the idea of gender (if at all).

There is a good reason for a passport (and other official identity documents) to remain a reflection of your physiological gender rather than your psychological one. It's so that you can be identified when you cannot identify yourself - such as when you are unconscious and require appropriate medical treatment for your own medical history, or dead and your loved ones want to bury the right otherwise-unidentifiable remains.

If this is the case then how do Argentina, Canada, Malta, New Zealand, Uruguay and some US states deal with this? All of them let you identify as non-binary on official documents including passports.

 

[Famine]

If this is the case then how do Argentina, Canada, Malta, New Zealand, Uruguay and some US states deal with this? All of them let you identify as non-binary on official documents including passports.

They've simply decided that the good reason isn't a good enough one to remain as it is.

 

[Moglet]

They've simply decided that the good reason isn't a good enough one to remain as it is.

BRB going to Canada

In all seriousness though I'm not overly concerned about my documents showing anything other than Male but I should probably update the photos given that I have a beard in them...

 

[ryzno]

For all I know, there are "male" trans individuals out there, those who were identified as female at birth, who are attracted to "female" trans individuals.

My dad had a co-worker who was male, fully changed to female and ended up getting with a woman.

 

[TenEightyOne]

"on" (we/us) is plural though and not an individual. I dont think it is used as pronoun for an individual at all.

It's also they as an alternative for ils or elles - when used as they the subject is a specific or unspecific number of things/people, just as it is in English. With that said, despite the lack of gender it always takes an il form for verbs and adjectives, never elle or nous.

Here's an interesting guide to just 2,343,562 of the ways you can use on in French. De rien.

 

[TexRex]

De rien.

Le beurre est bon sur le pain.

 

[novcze]

The point was made that in many languages and cultures there is no "gender" (as in identity).

Exactly, gender in grammar is common thing but definition of gender as:

- either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

and its usage is confusing.



On that note, If I refuse to comply with established idea of man in society (chase pussy, make kids, work my ass off to pay mortgage) what gender should I choose from this list? And why do I need to label my identity?

In our culture it is that I'm human male which translates as man and there is no further need to split people into more groups because identity of every individual is unique.
Also in our legal identity documents there is stated only our sex, which one can change, but only after sex reassignment surgery.

 

[Moglet]

On that note, If I refuse to comply with established idea of man in society (chase pussy, make kids, work my ass off to pay mortgage) what gender should I choose from this list? And why do I need to label my identity?

Lets assume for a minute that the idea of being a man is not distilled down to that awful description in your post. If you were to do things that weren't traditionally "manly" then you could choose "gender non conforming" meaning you don't conform to what society expects from your gender.

However if you wake up one day and feel an absolutely crippling sense of depression that washes over you at the thought of you being the gender you were assigned at birth, or look in the mirror and want to tear gendered parts of your body off, or suddenly have an overwhelming urge to switch your gender to the point where it fills your thoughts every second you're awake, then you might want to choose a different option.

It should be noted though that this feeling (gender/body dysphoria) is not a qualifier for being trans, it's just an example.

 

[UKMikey]

There is the counter-point, which is transgender regret stories, some of which end up in suicide. Is counselling someone to reconsider transgender therapies automatically conversion therapy? I'd hate to see that be the case. Seems like defining what is "conversion therapy" would be fraught with problems.

It sounds like pre op counselling would only be considered conversion therapy if counsellors were also trying to convert the gender preference of the individual. I can't see where or why opponents of conversion therapy would be opposed to pre-op counselling.

 

[PocketZeven]

There is a good reason for a passport (and other official identity documents) to remain a reflection of your physiological gender rather than your psychological one. It's so that you can be identified when you cannot identify yourself - such as when you are unconscious and require appropriate medical treatment for your own medical history, or dead and your loved ones want to bury the right otherwise-unidentifiable remains.

In this context, gender is not a reflection of biology, and in no context is it a reflection of sexual preference. Gender is what you identify as.

Nationality is an interesting one, because your ethnicity is a matter of genetics and physiology (like chromosomal and physiological gender are), but your nationality is a matter of identity. This would be more like if there were only two possible nations on Earth and most people identified as one or the other (which matched their ethnicity), but some identified as the opposite, some as both equally, some as neither, and some as parts of one and parts of the other - and which may shift on a momentary basis.

If you feel both genders you feel that you have some parts of either identity. If you feel none then you do not have parts of either.

This reflects back to earlier points @Danoff made about gender stereotypes - how can one decide you have male and female identifiers without first deciding what makes males male and females female, and how can you do that without referring back to gender stereotypes?

No, that would be genderfluid. Non-binary is specifically someone who does not identify as either because they do not perceive gender as an exclusionary one-or-the-other thing.

Not intrinsically (although they may identify as such) because intersex disorders and hermaphroditism (which are different things) are physiological not psychological. Gender in this context is what you identify as, not what your chromosomes say or what physiology they produce.

The problem is all of the above is not universal and there is much contradictory information out there. I know of the difference between biology gender and genderidentity. But if genderidentity is purely a mental thing, I am more enclined to understand why some people would classify it as a mental illness. Note that I personally dont know anyone who is non-binary.

Genderfluid, Non-binary, trans, queer etc. It is very confusing for me and very hard to classify and use correct pro-nouns.

This is why I rarely take offence if people use terminology that is considered rude, lots of people genuinely don't know what terms they should use and what is off limits.
.

I already noticed in your posts that you are very aware that ignorence does not equal malice. The problem there are some that do take offense. There is no mainstream way how someone like me can actually learn more. Even dictionaries and wikipedia has conlicting information.

 

[Moglet]

Genderfluid, Non-binary, trans, queer etc. It is very confusing for me and very hard to classify and use correct pro-nouns.

I already noticed in your posts that you are very aware that ignorence does not equal malice. The problem there are some that do take offense. There is no mainstream way how someone like me can actually learn more. Even dictionaries and wikipedia has conlicting information.

You wait until you see the acronyms! There are still lots that I don't understand and I'm fairly active in conversations about gender. One of the problems is that people have different definitions for things, non binary is a good example as some use it as a catch-all term to cover things like agender or gender fluid and others use it as an actual separate identity that just means they don't identify fully as either male or female but also don't consider themselves fluid or totally lacking in gender.

You can always PM me with questions you have, I'll always do my best to answer them. 👍

 

[Famine]

The problem is all of the above is not universal and there is much contradictory information out there.

It's universal... ish.

The issue is that the adoption of the term "gender" to mean an identity as a distinction from "sex" to mean a physical characteristic is very much new - the terms are pretty much interchangeable, although "gender" means "sort, or kind" and "sex" means "division in two". However, although "sex" as a verb means "to get jiggy with it", neither term has ever meant what kind of thing you're attracted to - sexual orientation doesn't belong in the discussion except as a way to baffle religiousists ("hey, is a dude who sleeps with a dude who used to be a chick still gay according to Leviticus? What about a dude who sleeps with a chick who used to be a dude? What if he sleeps with a chick who secretly wants to be a dude, or a dude who openly wants to be a chick?", and so on).


In essence you should keep four terms in mind:
* Trans - across, or opposed
* Cis - alongside, or the same; not a wholly necessary term, but one frequently used
* Gender - psychological sexual identity
* Sex - physiological sexual characteristics

There's a light muddying of the waters with biology here, because really you have two sets of physiological sexual characteristics - chromosomal (genotype) and physical (phenotype) - and they may not be the same thing. Someone with a male genotype may present as female, or indeterminate. And then there's external and internal physiology, where individuals with a male genotype may present externally as female but internally as male (such as in AIS). There's definitely an episode of House based on that one.

Thus you can see that someone who is "trans", "gender" is someone whose psychological sexual identity is opposed to their physiological sexual characteristics. There's a disorder name for it of "gender dysphoria" (gender is psychological sexual identity, and 'dysphoria' literally means 'bad body'). The surgical treatment is "sex reassignment surgery" because it reassigns your (external, physical) physiological characteristics - your sex - albeit in a non-functional manner. Still, there's plenty of people born with those bits that have non-functional ones.


There's a whole suite of types of transgender precisely because there's only really two types of sex - anything other than cis-male and cis-female (again, terms that aren't wholly necessary, but which mean "physiologically and psychologically male" and "physiologically and psychologically male", thus shorter to type) is by definition transgender. Maybe cis-neuter too - agender and... freak smelting accident.

Obviously there's the traditional ones you hear a lot, with simple opposition: male to female, female to male. Agender is someone who has no gender identity - they do not regard themselves as a gendered being, regardless of physical sexual characteristics. Genderfluid would be someone whose gender identity is not fixed. Genderqueer, perhaps a slightly less popular term for non-binary (because of the implications of 'queer' on sexual orientation, even though it's not really part of the discussion; queer in this context is a verb meaning 'to twist or question'), means someone whose gender identity is not described in terms of maleness and femaleness as they reject that such a distinction exists*.


Sexual orientation isn't part of the discussion simply because who you are doesn't have any effect on who - if anyone - you want to screw. You might be MTF and go for women, or for men, or for neither. You might be agender and still love a big old pair of titties. You could be monogamous, polyamorous, or just not get involved. You might have... a paraphilia. It's exactly the same as if you're a guy born a guy, or a girl born a girl, so it's not really relevant.



*And this leads back to a question @Danoff posed - and was called transphobic for posing - of how you can describe a gender identity in terms of maleness and femaleness without resorting to stereotypes of male and female behaviour.

 

[PocketZeven]

It's universal... ish.

In essence you should keep four terms in mind:
* Trans - across, or opposed
* Cis - alongside, or the same; not a wholly necessary term, but one frequently used
* Gender - psychological sexual identity
* Sex - physiological sexual characteristics



*And this leads back to a question @Danoff posed - and was called transphobic for posing - of how you can describe a gender identity in terms of maleness and femaleness without resorting to stereotypes of male and female behaviour.

Thanks, but I do understand these basics. And have actually learned about genderidentity in this thread. But as I pointed out earlier in many languages and cultures there is no seperate word of gender as an identity. I have only learned you are the gender your born with or trans or perhaps intersex. These are all concepts based on biology. Psychological identity is so difficult to understand for many outsiders. To me it sounds similar to psychological ethnicity. Which now is often criticised for cultural appropiation, but lately in my view has a lot of in common with gender identity. Yet someone who is born cauasian, claiming to be black is quickly labeled for being crazy.

edit: correction

 

[TexRex]

We all know about those crotch sniffers, built into the door handles of all public restrooms, that detect the genitalia of wouldbe travelers and allow the door to be locked automatically if the genitalia detected doesn't correspond to the gender permitted to enter, but do you suppose one of those Gwyneth Paltrow vagina candles could be used to trick the system and allow someone with ill intent to get in? One wonders if that's why they sold out so quick.

 

[Northstar]

We all know about those crotch sniffers, built into the door handles of all public restrooms, that detect the genitalia of wouldbe travelers and allow the door to be locked automatically if the genitalia detected doesn't correspond to the gender permitted to enter, but do you suppose one of those Gwyneth Paltrow vagina candles could be used to trick the system and allow someone with ill intent to get in? One wonders if that's why they sold out so quick.

Somehow, that would seem more understandable than the actual reason they did (which is that people are just as crazy as her).

 

[Famine]

But as I pointed out earlier in many languages and cultures there is no seperate word of gender as an identity.

The issue is that the adoption of the term "gender" to mean an identity as a distinction from "sex" to mean a physical characteristic is very much new - the terms are pretty much interchangeable, although "gender" means "sort, or kind" and "sex" means "division in two".

 

[Moglet]

Post

This is an excellent post (I didn't quote the entire thing for the sake of people browsing on mobile), not least because it contains possibly the best thing I've seen posted on GTP in a while: "You might be agender and still love a big old pair of titties"

 

[MaxAttack]

Don't know why I came to this thread, but now I know there's a legal precedent for saying big ol' titties on GTP, and that's about all the information I'll be needing.

Thankee, and big ol' titties.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Don't know why I came to this thread, but now I know there's a legal precedent for saying big ol' titties on GTP, and that's about all the information I'll be needing.

Thankee, and big ol' titties.

I came to this thread because I misread the thread title as "Transgender Threat" and wanted to know more.

 

[Milouse]

That's also true in English, it's common (if becoming unpopular) to talk about waiters and waitresses, actors and actresses, we have all kinds of gendered nouns despite having no actual gender system

So, for instance, when a restaurant owner seek to hire people, what does the classified ad look like regarding waiter/waitress mention? And did this change over time?