Transgender Thread.

[Famine]

@Famine, this is the third time now where I am going to say this. I agree that medical information should very clearly state in big bold red letters what physical sex someone is. That is the ONLY documentation that needs to state what physical sex someone is, and only because of the reason you have stated. I don't know how much clearer I can tell you that I agree with that aspect of your argument.

That didn't form part of my argument - because it's moronic. Besides which I'm sure that many trans people would object to having their birth gender displayed in such a fashion.

Your medical notes don't work like that. They are part of a suite of documents of record that are derived from your birth certificate and include your NI number, driving licence, passport, voter ID and others. They have to function in this fashion because they are objective and establish your identity. Change your birth certificate and they all change.

With regards to emergency treatment, you are seriously wrong if you thing medical personal in the emergency room do not check over your information in some way before treating you.

That's odd as my wife - a 999 call handler who was formerly an A&E nurse at Addenbrooke's - completely disagrees with you. In a life & death situation it simply isn't possible to firmly establish someone's identity in order to then check their medical notes before treatment. You treat what you see.

You can ask her if you like - her user ID is @Mrs. Famine.

Incidentally this:

4, producing thorough case notes and reporting the patient's history, condition and treatment to relevant hospital staff.

... doesn't mean anywhere near what you want it to mean. The paramedic's job of "reporting the patient's history" means every scrap of medical information they have from first encountering the patient until they are handed over to A&E staff. This includes basic things like their GCS and sats and any treatment they've given to the patient to stabilise them en route.

It doesn't mean accessing the patient's medical notes because, as mentioned above, sometimes that simply isn't possible.

It is a nickname you go by, either given to you by your peers, or chosen by yourself.

Just as Ialyrn is my nickname, nothing more, nothing less.

A chosen identity that doesn't belong in documents of record, eh? Imagine that.

People don't want transgender people in the toilet that corresponds with their gender, but their biological sex; because think of the women and children and their safety from sexual predators (case and point in this thread).

I'm still waiting to find out how I'm going to find out if someone who looks like a bloke and is in the bloke's toilets was born with a vagina and why I'd object to it.

 

[BobK]

Seems to me that a birth certificate should reflect status as of the moment of birth, not what someone later decides they think they should be. No matter how strongly they feel that way.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Seems to me that a birth certificate should reflect status as of the moment of birth, not what someone later decides they think they should be. No matter how strongly they feel that way.

They're a transient document though. In my own case my birth certificate is invalid and can't be used as a standalone document.

As far as reflecting gender goes there will always be people whose gender is not clear or not correctly established within the window in which birth certification must occur. I don't have figures for how many - I'd guess it's a fraction of a percent - but those cases do exist and will continue to occur.

 

[Famine]

As far as reflecting gender goes there will always be people whose gender is not clear or not correctly established within the window in which birth certification must occur. I don't have figures for how many - I'd guess it's a fraction of a percent - but those cases do exist and will continue to occur.

There would be no great harm in allowing this to be "Indeterminate" and resolved following testing - though if the phenotype is unclear, cellular gender testing takes a few minutes and gender genotyping around an hour, while you have 6 weeks to register a birth.

 

[GBO Possum]

Gender is a just a little less simple. Click the linky!

"While biology shows us gender can be fluid, our brains struggle to see it that way."

 

[Famine]

Gender is a just a little less simple. Click the linky!

"While biology shows us gender can be fluid, our brains struggle to see it that way."

That subheading is possibly the wrongest thing I've ever read. Gender fluidity is, for humans at least, solely cognitive and with no foundation in physiology. Sure you can have hermaphroditic plants and animals and even some that change their physiological gender in response to environment, but it's about as relevant suggesting that humans can have feathers or a swim bladder.

Once the article settles down and starts talking about genetic/physiological gender differences, it's dramatically overplaying just how common and relevant many of the things it mentions actually are.

However even an article written from this viewpoint can only establish two genders and all of the alternatives it mentions are expressed in terms of male-ness and female-ness. To be honest, it adds nothing to my earlier comment:

Genetically you are whichever gender your chromosomes say you are (give or take some rare and unusual events). Physiologically you are whichever gender you genitalia say you are, with occasional muddied waters of intersex phenotypes.

 

[Daniel]

@Famine am I right in assuming your definition of gender is physiologically based rather than socially or neurologically based?

 

[Famine]

@Famine am I right in assuming your definition of gender is physiologically based rather than socially or neurologically based?

No.

Genetically you are whichever gender your chromosomes say you are (give or take some rare and unusual events). Physiologically you are whichever gender you genitalia say you are, with occasional muddied waters of intersex phenotypes. The feeling or belief that your physiology doesn't match your own gender identity is either psychological or neurochemical.

That's four different gender classifications in there, if you're keeping count.

And to throw us back at the topic again, ALL are expressed by degrees of maleness and femaleness.

 

[squadops]

Is there a reason any of this should matter? I know I couldn't care less if a person relates to being a donkey.

Please don't tell me it's because some are crying for equal rights, meaning more equal than others. If that is the case well, I'm discriminated against every day, so what?

 

[Daniel]

It is for equal rights, but not in the I-have-more-rights-than-you-I-deserve-special-attention rights. There is evidence that trans people experience higher amounts of harassment, assault and bullying. There's a disproportionately high amount of homeless youth who are LGBT (i.e. the percentage of LGBT youth may be 5-10% but the percentage of LGBT among homeless youth is around 20-40%). There isn't a lot of protection as well. 33 states don't have laws surrounding workplace security, meaning that someone could be fired from their job for being trans.

It's also asking for general respect. Nobody here is disagreeing that a trans person can change their biological and physiological makeup. However they can change their physicality and social appearance to match their neurological gender identity; they just want the general public to see them as their neurological gender.

 

[squadops]

It is for equal rights, but not in the I-have-more-rights-than-you-I-deserve-special-attention rights. There is evidence that trans people experience higher amounts of harassment, assault and bullying. There's a disproportionately high amount of homeless youth who are LGBT (i.e. the percentage of LGBT youth may be 5-10% but the percentage of LGBT among homeless youth is around 20-40%). There isn't a lot of protection as well. 33 states don't have laws surrounding workplace security, meaning that someone could be fired from their job for being trans.

What is the proposed way to curb this higher amount of harassment, assault ad bullying? How should we address homeless exactly? Where I come from you can be fired for any old reason. YOu are not convincing me that this is not 'have mo rite'

It's also asking for general respect. Nobody here is disagreeing that a trans person can change their biological and physiological makeup. However they can change their physicality and social appearance to match their neurological gender identity; they just want the general public to see them as their neurological gender.

We all ask for general respect. I'll agree with the rest of that 👍

Whenever these things come up I always have to ask what would happen if I started a publication called 'ivory' lol. I'm still here to tell you that I am discriminated against on a daily basis and I do not sing out, instead I try to figure it out. Not conformity, success.

 

[Daniel]

What is the proposed way to curb this higher amount of harassment, assault ad bullying? How should we address homeless exactly? Where I come from you can be fired for any old reason. You are not convincing me that this is not 'have mo rite'

I'll put it this way: in areas that do have employment protection of sex (i.e. biological gender), race, religion and sexuality, there is no protection of gender identity. In that case, trans people are asking for equal rights.

 

[squadops]

Fair enough, I see no harm in in putting that on the book and on the mandatory poster, I will try to find you a picture of one from here, just a sec.

Here, I will give you this link, let me know if you cannot see what we post by law.
http://www.dws.state.nm.us/Business/Publications/State-and-Federal-Posters

such as this http://www.dws.state.nm.us/Portals/0/DM/LaborRelations/human_rights_poster_2015.pdf

do we need more?

 

[Famine]

It's also asking for general respect. Nobody here is disagreeing that a trans person can change their biological and physiological makeup. However they can change their physicality and social appearance to match their neurological gender identity; they just want the general public to see them as their neurological gender.

And in every response I've posted so far I've pointed out that people will treat you according to what they see, not what's in your underwear - because they have no idea what's in your underwear.

If you're unconscious, look like a girl and have documentation on you that says you're a girl, paramedics will treat you as a girl.

If you go into girl's toilets looking like a girl, the other people in the toilets will act as if you're a girl.

If I don’t know anything about you and meet you in the street looking like a girl, I will refer to you as if you're a girl.

Here on GTP, no-one knows anything about you, so if you say you're a girl, you'll be treated as if you're a girl.

In none of those situations does anyone know you were born with a penis without being told about it, so none of them will treat you as if you are a guy. So what's the problem here?


Incidentally, we're still on just two genders. No-one has come up with anything that can't be described by maleness and femaleness. Perhaps 'agender'? You'd need to identify as neither, produce no hormones, have zero genitalia and have Turners Syndrome to qualify though.

 

[FoolKiller]

In none of those situations does anyone know you were born with a penis without being told about it, so none of them will treat you as if you are a guy. So what's the problem here?

What if it's Pat?

 

[squadops]

Beer or wine Pat? eeeeeh ergh eh, I'll have a water.

 

[Famine]

What if it's Pat?

No idea who that is, but they look sufficiently androgynous that they ought to carry some information containing their physiological/genetic gender data on in case of emergency treatment being necessary, I'd be guarded about my pronouns and whichever toilet they went in they'd get some odd looks.

Meanwhile, on the internet, they'd be treated as whatever they portrayed themselves, because on the internet there are no genders.

 

[squadops]

It comes from a Saturday night live skit, eventually they made a movie. No one can find out Pat's gender no matter how hard they try.

 

[Famine]

No one can find out Pat's gender no matter how hard they try.

Apparently you just need to follow Pat into the toilets, since people habitually strip bollock-naked and take a running jump at the cubicle.

Which might explain the state of most public toilets I go into.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Personally, I try to stay away from public bathrooms as much as possible, because they're (quite literally) ****holes. And I'm not sure how it is on the other side of the pond, but over here it's quite common that with public restrooms there's a queue in front of the ladies room and there's hardly anyone in the mens room. So guess what a lady will do if they really, really have to go?

And nobody makes a problem out of it either, it's not like they'll be on your lap in the same stall while you're pooping. And any of the dads with little girls or moms with little boys: if your little one is about to (or has) crap(ped) his pants you will go to whatever one is available, regardless of gender.

So the whole discussion is moot to me.

But of course, the issue here is not the restroom. Just like it wasn't the bus all those decades ago.

 

[FoolKiller]

Apparently you just need to follow Pat into the toilets,

That was actually how the final skit played out, only they cut to commercial just before and came back to everyone saying, "Of course. I knew it all along."

While I was attempting humor, I do believe the use the bathroom you appear to match discussion becomes tricky in the case of androgynous appearance. However, I believe if the bathroom used remains consistent it should resolve any questions fairly quickly.


As the father of a young daughter I would prefer an option that doesn't result in me in a women's restroom or her in a men's restroom. To reduce the possibility of issues I take her into the men's restroom, and even though I am used to it by now, I definitely see other men feeling uncomfortable when they realize there's a young girl present. I've seen multiple cases of guys finishing up and quickly walking out without washing their hands, all while looking at us out of the corner of their eyes. You'd think I walked in with a gun. Comic Con was the most awkward situation. My daughter was uncomfortable in a crowded men's room but also didn't want to get separated from me in a large crowd by going into the women's room alone.

 

[Famine]

Personally, I try to stay away from public bathrooms as much as possible, because they're (quite literally) ****holes. And I'm not sure how it is on the other side of the pond, but over here it's quite common that with public restrooms there's a queue in front of the ladies room and there's hardly anyone in the mens room. So guess what a lady will do if they really, really have to go?

And nobody makes a problem out of it either, it's not like they'll be on your lap in the same stall while you're pooping. And any of the dads with little girls or moms with little boys: if your little one is about to (or has) crap(ped) his pants you will go to whatever one is available, regardless of gender.

So the whole discussion is moot to me.

I concur. I'm baffled by the whole toilet issue that's been brought up in this thread. You go in, you close a door and you evacuate whatever you want to evacuate in privacy. I may have been in the toilet with hundreds of people who weren't born physically/genetically male, but I have no idea if I have because it isn't mandatory to show any identification - or that you have a penis - when you go in.

But of course, the issue here is not the restroom. Just like it wasn't the bus all those decades ago.

That seems a little disingenuous though - unless you're suggesting that men are oppressed because our toilets are inferior (they aren't - they have urinals too) and we get hauled to prison (as perverts) if we go into the ladies' toilets.

 

[squadops]

That seems a little disingenuous though - unless you're suggesting that men are oppressed because our toilets are inferior (they aren't - they have urinals too) and we get hauled to prison (as perverts) if we go into the ladies' toilets.

There is this cry of discrimination though, that is why I posted my state's labor laws just above. The public restroom argument is a joke as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Famine]

There is this cry of discrimination though

By whom and discrimination of whom?

 

[squadops]

By whom and discrimination of whom?

This
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...2-genders-or-more.345206/page-7#post-11338410

And the second link in my response right after.

.....

Discrimination is a part of our society and no amount of laws will change that, as in the homosexual thread debate, it can't be taught out of the kids either imo.

 

[Famine]

This
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...2-genders-or-more.345206/page-7#post-11338410

And the second link in my response right after.

I can see nothing about toilet discrimination in there...

 

[squadops]

Oh, well I didn't mean that

I thought we were speaking of this.

But of course, the issue here is not the restroom. Just like it wasn't the bus all those decades ago.

 

[Obelisk]

This thread is painful for me to even read...

As for where I stand, you are who you are. No one else can tell you otherwise.

(inb4 someone proves Godwin's Law)

 

[Rallywagon]

I look at it like this, gender rolls are a made up concept. You are born with a penis, or a vagina and this of course creates some internal biological differences. You are absolutely born with one or the other (talking average health baby). I think medically it should matter that you get the right sex, because you don't go looking for ovarian cancer in the scrotum. However beyond that, and speaking specifically to gender identification, it doesn't matter. Things like "female shoes" or "male pants", completely a human fabrication. I couldn't care less if some woman felt more comfortable taking a crap in the mens room while belching loudly. Nor do I care if some guy would like to put on make up and a dress and prance around the mall. I'll be honest, some of the fabrics used to make women's clothing looks very comfortable on a warm breezy day.

 

[NLxAROSA]

That seems a little disingenuous though - unless you're suggesting that men are oppressed because our toilets are inferior (they aren't - they have urinals too) and we get hauled to prison (as perverts) if we go into the ladies' toilets.

No I was alluding more to the fact that the whole restroom thing is just a small part of a larger gender disparity issue/debate that's going on right now, like the bus thing was part of a larger racial disparity issue.