Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman

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Trayvon Martin vs George Zimmerman

I think it is clear that Trayvon Martin's Human Rights were violated by George Zimmerman.
However what I do not understand is that everyone now wants to violate George Zimmerman's rights. I do not believe he is a danger to the public, but he should answer for his acts.
 
Trayvon Martin vs George Zimmerman

I think it is clear that Trayvon Martin's Human Rights were violated by George Zimmerman.
However what I do not understand is that everyone now wants to violate George Zimmerman's rights. I do not believe he is a danger to the public, but he should answer for his acts.
I honestly do not know enough about what happened to say what should be done to Zimmerman, but he did shoot an unarmed innocent. Until his intent can be determined how that should be dealt with is unknown, but if it truly was a case of a man that assumes a black teen in a hooded sweatshirt/jacket is a threat that needs to be killed then, yes, he is a danger to the public.

At a minimum the guy is guilty of some degree of manslaughter. The real question is if it is aggravated, or should even be considered murder.
 
.. Zimmerman, but he did shoot an unarmed innocent.

I think all seem to agree with this, the rights of the innocent were violated.

... if it truly was a case of a man that assumes a black teen in a hooded sweatshirt/jacket is a threat that needs to be killed then, yes, he is a danger to the public. ...

This is the point I wanted to come to. Zimmerman seems unfit for the task he was doing, so until proven otherwise he should certainly stop doing that. However imprisoning him seems against his rights, he does not seem to go out and just kill. He saw a thread and misjudged it, he interpreted and act and over reacted on it, all that is wrong, but it does not make him "a danger to the public", it does for me make him inapt to carry a gun (but that is already judgement again).

Excuse me, but in order to understand what is or is not Constitutional, you should be linking me to clauses within the Constitution itself, not a news article.

You are very right, in my job I do the exact same, only the law in the original language is valid, however, this does not exclude discussion.

The point is a bit further in my mind.
1) I go with the view introduced by Locke (on which the US constitution and a lot of others are based) that a government gets authority by defending rights and by defending rights only. => you do not even need a constitution for this.
2) That does not not forbid the government to do other things (as far as I got the constitution above also not in the US), but the point is that this is on a voluntary basis. e.g. the government can not force you to give money to invest this in a Marshall plan in Europe, however they could organise the plan and ask for participation or give other advantages (e.g. support in international relationships) to participants.
=> Even if this Marshall plan was essential to create stability and not let extreme political tendencies take over in Europe.
 
He saw a thread and misjudged it, he interpreted and act and over reacted on it, all that is wrong, but it does not make him "a danger to the public",
Just a danger to people he finds suspicious. There are two very well known facts that the media hasn't been able to distort: 1) A teen was killed. 2) The shooter was on the phone with 911 before a confrontation occurred and they and told him to stop his pursuit of the now dead teen, which he did not do. His actions resulted in the confrontation and eventual death of an unarmed teenager.

At best, he exhibited careless and reckless behavior which caused someone to die. He violated another person's right to life. To claim, without evidence, that he is not dangerous and should not be punished in some way is a dangerous precedent, especially when we do not know his motivations behind his actions or even if this paranoid security mentality he appears to have shown is the first sign of a sociopathic breakdown.

There are witnesses and other evidence that must be examined, but unless the teen took the gun and committed suicide, he will have to take some form of responsibility.
 
To claim, without evidence, that he is not dangerous and should not be punished in some way is a dangerous precedent...

This is very clear to me, it is even clear to me that Zimmerman should be punished. I have trouble to understand Zimmerman is not charged (you do need the correct formulation to avoid issues later), since if it was justified self-defense the judge will be able to decided that on the proof presented.
What I do not understand is that people want to imprison Zimmerman, he was protecting his neighborhood; the case is about applying the wrong means in a particular case not about locking away a determined killer; again a judge should decide.

That is why I brought this case in this thread, Zimmerman even if guilty (at least of excessive use of force) has rights.
 
After all is said and done, his life is not gonna be an easy one. He's definitely a marked man from now on.

He has become this generation's OJ Simpson of sorts.
 
This is what happens when the media blows something up without getting a story straight.

Witness report says Trayvon was beating the crap out of Zimmerman's face before he got shot.

I'm not even wasting my time with this story until the court case is over with.
 
This is what happens when the media blows something up without getting a story straight.

Witness report says Trayvon was beating the crap out of Zimmerman's face before he got shot.

I'm not even wasting my time with this story until the court case is over with.

Earth to Omnis. Zimmerman followed the kid! Fact.

How on earth can someone claim self defense after following someone and obviously starting the confrontation? How absurd.
 
How do we know he started the confrontation? At the end of the case, only Zimmerman will know what actually happened.
 
Earth to Omnis. Zimmerman followed the kid! Fact.

How on earth can someone claim self defense after following someone and obviously starting the confrontation? How absurd.

We don't know what happened yet. If you follow someone that has been walking between houses after the neighborhood has been burgled a couple times, and that person later jumps on you and beats the crap out of you, is that a reasonable response to asking what he's doing in the neighborhood?

We don't know what happened yet. It would be a waste of time to speculate until the court case happens and all the evidence and testimony is heard.
 
This is what happens when the media blows something up without getting a story straight.

Witness report says Trayvon was beating the crap out of Zimmerman's face before he got shot.

I'm not even wasting my time with this story until the court case is over with.

Look at the videos to when they brought in Zimmerman to the police station you can see that is face is fine and doesn't look beaten at all. There are also witnesses that coincide with this as well. Then you have the 911 call where you here quite well someone screaming for help, sound experts in the field using voice recignition software said it wasn't Zimmerman.

We're also talking about an area that has a history of blacks being discriminated against more so than others. The way I see it is Trayvon was profiled by a man that doesn't have the cleanest of records. Also a guy that seems to have help from the Court System if you know what I mean.

A rare time I disagree with Omnis.

We don't know what happened yet. If you follow someone that has been walking between houses after the neighborhood has been burgled a couple times, and that person later jumps on you and beats the crap out of you, is that a reasonable response to asking what he's doing in the neighborhood?

We don't know what happened yet. It would be a waste of time to speculate until the court case happens and all the evidence and testimony is heard.

Like you said we don't know what happened, the evidence thus far doesn't collaborate with the story Zimmerman gave about being beat up. Neither does the visual evidence.
 
The problem with the "evidence" we have heard at this point is that most of it has been media edited. Literally. To the point that NBC is investigating how the 911 call they aired was so heavily edited to completely change the conversation Zimmerman had. After that, and CNN's "the best audio experts say he said the word coon" then later "other best audio experts say he said punks" I just cannot trust anything reported at this point.

How much is being made up, edited, faked? How much is being selectively chosen in reporting? And how much is only being used after the above acts have been found out in order to justify the bad reporting?
 
The problem with the "evidence" we have heard at this point is that most of it has been media edited. Literally. To the point that NBC is investigating how the 911 call they aired was so heavily edited to completely change the conversation Zimmerman had. After that, and CNN's "the best audio experts say he said the word coon" then later "other best audio experts say he said punks" I just cannot trust anything reported at this point.

How much is being made up, edited, faked? How much is being selectively chosen in reporting? And how much is only being used after the above acts have been found out in order to justify the bad reporting?

I agree, but there are other outlets that I trust a bit more that I'm using as a reference point. I don't trust FOX because of their bias on the case only to defend guns, which I don't think needs protecting. MSNBC I don't trust because of their liberal bias on it and the whole "black struggle" I understand Sharpton doing it. However, the tapes I've heard from all outlets (not sure why one would listen to a single media) you hear someone crying for help, then two shots. The area that Zimmerman says it all went down back to his car doesn't connect, why follow him when you could have easily called the cops to get the kid arrested.
 
I've heard many sides of the story.

One side is where Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, and it was his cry for help in the background. (Apparently a couple of the police that heard the phone call say it was Zimmerman)

The other side is that Trayvon was attacked due to racial profiling, and it ended up bad.

The facts? Zimmerman was told to not follow the person, and to not engage him. To just wait for authorities.

My stance? For now I'm waiting for the court-case to determine whether or not he's innocent or guilty.
 
This is what happens when the media blows something up without getting a story straight.

Witness report says Trayvon was beating the crap out of Zimmerman's face before he got shot.

I'm not even wasting my time with this story until the court case is over with.

We don't know what happened yet. It would be a waste of time to speculate until the court case happens and all the evidence and testimony is heard.

This. This. This.

There is so much arm flailing and misinformation out there right now. I believe it was NBC that ran this as the phone call between Zimmerman and the 911 Operator:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

When what really happened was this...

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

The two things people seem to be focusing on are racial profiling and the Stand Your Ground Law. The latter hardly applies to this situation (if at all) and the former is based on idiots like Spike Lee and that pathetic New Black Panther Movement that have been waiting for an opportunity to start a race war.

What's funny to me is this: While most gun-violence related stories tend to be contrived fear-mongering campaigns preying on the general public's ignorance to the simple facts of firearms in the US, this is a situation where I think a discussion on the limits of firearm ownership should happen.

To me this story in particular boils down to a few things:
-A kid was shot and killed. That's a tragedy no matter how you spin it.
-Zimmerman seems to be an idiot. He disobeyed a 911 dispatcher to aggressively follow someone.
-You cannot trust reporters, they're whores.
 
This. This. This.

There is so much arm flailing and misinformation out there right now. I believe it was NBC that ran this as the phone call between Zimmerman and the 911 Operator:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

When what really happened was this...

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

The two things people seem to be focusing on are racial profiling and the Stand Your Ground Law. The latter hardly applies to this situation (if at all) and the former is based on idiots like Spike Lee and that pathetic New Black Panther Movement that have been waiting for an opportunity to start a race war.

What's funny to me is this: While most gun-violence related stories tend to be contrived fear-mongering campaigns preying on the general public's ignorance to the simple facts of firearms in the US, this is a situation where I think a discussion on the limits of firearm ownership should happen.

To me this story in particular boils down to a few things:
-A kid was shot and killed. That's a tragedy no matter how you spin it.
-Zimmerman seems to be an idiot. He disobeyed a 911 dispatcher to aggressively follow someone.
-You cannot trust reporters, they're whores.

Yes, very true. There is a lot of misinformation in this story.

The reason why Zimmerman has not been apprehended is because of the Stand Your Ground law. Prior to this case, there was another case in which a burglar entered the house of a widowed woman, with a knife and everything, and the woman ended up using her pistol (or shotgun) to kill the burglar. She had children in the house, and there may have been another burglar, who left after hearing the gunshot. The law protected her, and there was probably a good deal of consensus, publicly, that the law did a good job.

There is not much agreement as to the Stand Your Ground law applies here (I don't think it does). The space where this happened was completely different from the first case... and in this case, it was Zimmerman that was giving chase to Martin (although Zimmerman assumed that Martin was up to no good). In any case, this law is the reason why Zimmerman remains free, and has even prompted some to reconsider reforming it, to prevent people like Zimmerman from being protected from these type of actions.

As to the notion of race... I would like to ask the question, had Martin been white, had he been wearing something else, would Zimmerman have had any reason to think this person was up to no good? My opinion is that the most Zimmerman would have done was ask "who are you, where are you going?" But that's not what he did. He called the police first, saying that there was some suspicious person walking down the neighborhood. He then proceeded to ignore the dispatcher's orders to not pursue Martin, and pursued Martin. Why did he do that? Would he have followed the dispatcher's orders had Martin been white. I think so.

The underlying question has to be, why was Zimmerman so concerned about chasing Martin? Granted, he's security, he's charged to keep the neighborhood secure. But from whom? Folks like Martin?

I'm no Spike Lee, nor part of the Black Panthers movement, but Martin's race played a role in all of this. And I don't think it's in any way divisive nor race-war-inciting to reach this conclusion either.
 
The underlying question has to be, why was Zimmerman so concerned about chasing Martin? Granted, he's security, he's charged to keep the neighborhood secure. But from whom? Folks like Martin?

I'm no Spike Lee, nor part of the Black Panthers movement, but Martin's race played a role in all of this. And I don't think it's in any way divisive nor race-war-inciting to reach this conclusion either.

The problem is Zimmerman wasn't hired security he was a block watch volunteer. He is charged with watching out and reporting to the police when something not of the norm happens, which he should have done with Trayvon. It's funny Zimmerman's friends say "if only Trayvon told George who he was and where he was head, this would have all been avoided". WHAT!? Uh no, if Zimmerman didn't want to be a sorry excuse for a local batman and instead called the cops like he should this would have been avoided. I agree with what you're trying to say, I just wanted to clarify that to everyone so I'm not trying to pick you out by any means.

I had the same issue a few months back in my neighborhood, I come home late from work one night and park the car go inside the house. I forgot my phone was still in the car so I went back out for it about 10 to 15 minutes after I had been home. It was past 11pm, and I had my Springfield .45 on me, I saw a guy walking down the street with a beenie on and a led flash light poking into the house next door. I asked him if he needed help and he seemed to not hear me, he couldn't find away onto the property and proceeded to jump the fence. After that I called the police and they came five to ten minutes later.

I could have followed him but why? Why run the risk of a confrontation and shooting someone out of possible fear and self defense when you could let the police take care of it? That is what we should be asking for this case, this wasn't like Zimmerman being mugged or at his house and being burglarized. If that were the case I would agree that the end result was necessary if that person was in danger. As a gun owner and someone who was brought up learning about how to deal with certain situations, common sense (to me) tells me the way Zimmerman states how it happened doesn't add up.
 
Stand Your Ground means self defense. Initiating a pursuit is the opposite self defense.
Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder at least.

And well put, LMS. Following means murder. Judge Judy uses the term "But for the fact..." all the time. But for the fact Zimmerman followed the kid, he'd still be alive=guilty.
 
The fact that Zimmerman followed Martin against advice does not in and of itself automatically make it murder.

We don't know what happened yet, and unfortunately the news media has been caught red-handed doctoring the evidence which brings most of the "facts" we think we know into question. We'll have to wait for some sort of official inquiry and/or trial to get a better idea of what happened.

My suspicions are that what Zimmerman did constitutes murder, but I am not in possession of enough facts to say for sure one way or another, and neither is the vast majority of us.
 
My problem with this actually has very little to do with the fact the the poor kid was killed. My problem is with the fact that the mdia so obviously misrepresented the facts in order to twist it to their own anti-gun agenda. They made Zimmerman a vigilante, and portrayed Martin as a sweet little kid minding his own business (using a picture several years old!) neither of which was the case.

They're practically screaming, "This guy shot a kid for no reason!!! Get rid of guns!!!!!"

This should have folks everywhere very very worried. From the media, this isn't about a crime, it's about guns. This hasn't become just "spin," it's blatant propoganda. As we saw here, creative editing can make anybody say anything.

And if the press can treat this issue like this, what happens when they get hold of an issue that you care about, like travel, choice of schools, job placement???

We've come to trust our press entirely too much. Free press is vital, but without integrity the press is useless.
 
My problem with this actually has very little to do with the fact the the poor kid was killed. My problem is with the fact that the mdia so obviously misrepresented the facts in order to twist it to their own anti-gun agenda. They made Zimmerman a vigilante, and portrayed Martin as a sweet little kid minding his own business (using a picture several years old!) neither of which was the case.

They're practically screaming, "This guy shot a kid for no reason!!! Get rid of guns!!!!!"

This should have folks everywhere very very worried. From the media, this isn't about a crime, it's about guns. This hasn't become just "spin," it's blatant propoganda. As we saw here, creative editing can make anybody say anything.

And if the press can treat this issue like this, what happens when they get hold of an issue that you care about, like travel, choice of schools, job placement???

We've come to trust our press entirely too much. Free press is vital, but without integrity the press is useless.

Invisible rep.

LMS, my central point stands and it is one with which you cannot disagree. That's why I reiterated it in my post. There's a reason why he hasn't been arrested. I'm pretty sure the Sanford PD isn't completely unprofessional. We don't know enough to speculate. Hopefully this gets put to rest soon.
 
I've generally refused to debate this issue beyond criticizing the media's reporting of it and the premature hatred from activists. They can do what they want but I'd suggest not getting riled up about it until the evidence has been presented in full.
 
There's a reason why he hasn't been arrested.

:confused: No there isn't. He killed someone after following them. Two undeniable facts. Even if he didnt follow the kid, which he clearly was told not to follow him and he still did, once you kill someone you should be under arrest until the story gets straight.
 
I agree that the media's delivery does seem like a way to oust guns, I don't fear anything will happen when it comes to guns with this case. All it shows is what one looney does to the group. Many of us don't jump to the point where we have a hair trigger type reflex. There is far more crap that comes along with shooting someone than simply picking up the phone and calling police and letting them take care of it. I understand omnis not all the fact are here, and yet the media has made this a trial every day. I'll wait, but from what has been proven Zimmerman did follow the kid after being told not to.
 
:confused: No there isn't. He killed someone after following them. Two undeniable facts. Even if he didnt follow the kid, which he clearly was told not to follow him and he still did, once you kill someone you should be under arrest until the story gets straight.
The police at the scene obviously didn't have a case to arrest him or they'd have done so. I'm not a policeman and i wasn't at the scene, but what I do know is that police don't arrest people unless they have probably cause, according to this bit on the requirements for felony arrest:

"A peace officer may make an arrest for a felony, with or without a warrant, at any time, day or night, at any location, whether or not the felony has occurred in the officer's presence, so long as such arrest is supported by "probable cause.""

The possible crime in question would be a felony because a person was killed.
 
Oh, he was arrested, then released. He was never arraigned, which is just as abhorrent.

I've never been arrested, but I assumed if someone dies because of me there would be something saying I can't leave the country until an investigation was held.
 
I've generally refused to debate this issue beyond criticizing the media's reporting of it and the premature hatred from activists. They can do what they want but I'd suggest not getting riled up about it until the evidence has been presented in full.

This is my stance as well, reminds me of the Casey Anthony trial where the media made it their focus to only show one side.

All I know is I feel bad for whoever got put on this case.
 
Sorry, Dapper. What I meant was him remaining in custody, not just merely arrested. The point is, he's not dangerous and will go to court and all that or else the Marshalls will come after him.

And you're acting like he's all free willy nilly. Psyche. He's probably more scared for his life now than he was when Trayvon was allegedly on him.
 
Considering the bounties and death threats against him, yeah I'd say he's having it pretty rough.
 
Having never killed another individual with a gun at point blank range, I can't say I have any real experience with what happens legally.

But obviously Zimmerman being released the night of him shooting an unarmed teenager for no particular reason and after being told to stop pursuing the kid was bad for everyone involved. I mean, public prosecution never ends well. Zimmerman hasnt been proven guilty and the parents feel like their son's murderer never had to answer for what he did.

I am never really outspoken on public trials, and I am not really taking sides in this case, but if no one discusses what happened this time then it will happen again. If I need to shoot someone in self defense I am willing to sleep in jail for a night or two especially if it keeps the entire country from hating me.
 
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