Tuning system is completely broken in GT7
- Thread starter mrPetros
- 144 comments
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- 670
- London
- potatoe506
Useful video, but you can't help but question whether or not this is the right track to test the physics on. Tsukaba is the slowest and tightest track in the game, would we not see different results on a track with more normal cornering speeds? My understanding is that he felt like it was quicker through slow tight corners, but it had less rotation at higher speeds. Are the results consistent on cars running more downforce or different tyres?
Good starting point but without more context it fails to provide a concrete answer. Would be interested to see results at a track like Spa or Suzuka while using a Gr.3 car that's capable of higher cornering speeds and loads.
- 670
- London
- potatoe506
I just don't get the mindset to be honest. The PP system more or less works as intended as an indicator of how different cars will stack up against each other. If you use it in good faith, it performs its intended role perfectly well, even when comparing different classes of cars. But we are acting like it's useless because there are couple of weird examples where you can exploit the measurement system to gain an unfair advantage?
The issues people are observing with the PP system are all fixable but those fixes would make the system more complicated and harder for most players to understand and use. Instead of 'PP doesn't work' threads you'd have 'how does PP work' threads.
Feel free to take that last sentence out of context.
I get that for Sport mode there needs to be greater control, but honestly they're probably better off using other kinds of restrictions anyway. Using a simple power/weight ratio would work at least as well as a PP system for races that are restricted to a specific classification of car and would remove any weird transmission/top speed tricks, whilst still giving players the widest choice possible of how they want to setup their car.
I still don't see any evidence against the idea that 99% of the time, the PP system works perfectly well.
The issues people are observing with the PP system are all fixable but those fixes would make the system more complicated and harder for most players to understand and use. Instead of 'PP doesn't work' threads you'd have 'how does PP work' threads.
Feel free to take that last sentence out of context.
I get that for Sport mode there needs to be greater control, but honestly they're probably better off using other kinds of restrictions anyway. Using a simple power/weight ratio would work at least as well as a PP system for races that are restricted to a specific classification of car and would remove any weird transmission/top speed tricks, whilst still giving players the widest choice possible of how they want to setup their car.
I still don't see any evidence against the idea that 99% of the time, the PP system works perfectly well.
- 670
- London
- potatoe506
Sorry but what's your point? Yes that's a weird example that only applies in a specific PP range of maybe 500-650. Try it in a Gr.3 event and you will lose. Try it on a 700pp or above road car event and you will lose.
Again, if you use the system as intended it works fine. Declaring it as broken because there is an exploit which is only relevant to players trying to cheese their way through single player events is a bit dramatic no?
- 585
- Turkey
- talhaONE
What? No you dont lose. For example you can drop F1500T-A to 700PP range Just by limiting its top speed while keeping race compounds. Same thing can be done to Both Redbull x2019 and x2014, All Gr1, Gr2, Gr3 and Gr4 cars. Result is you get better grip and Acceleration and possibly more downforce depending on your tune which only limited by the top speed which hardly matters. In the sport mode there used to be gr4 nurb race and best lap times were done by using this exploit.
PP system is there to avoid any exploits and make races fair but in current system its too easily exploitable. It affects pretty much all lobbies and tuning allowed sport races not just single player. To be honest I always thought Forza PI system is complete Dumpster Fire but Gt7 literally set a new standart.
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- 4,864
- Kentucky
- barrett5
- BarrettMopar
Under 170 pp, over 240 mph.
- 670
- London
- potatoe506
I love how you say I'm wrong and then proceed to produce examples which completely ignore what I said.
Try it in a Gr.3 only event. You will lose. This is because Gr.3 events are generally restricted to 800pp and at that PP level there is no time to be gained by doing the top speed exploit. At 800pp you are reaching speeds well over 150mph on straights and as a result are losing out on too much time for any gains elsewhere to be worthwhile.
The Gr.4 event was possible because the event was restricted to 630pp. Read my comment again. "Yes that's a weird example that only applies in a specific PP range of maybe 500-650". At 630pp the cars are barely capable of reaching much more than 150mph because they gain a lot of PP from their downforce and race tyres, so limiting your top speed has basically zero compromise. You are faster to accelerate but you reach almost the same top speed because the straight isn't long enough for that PP level. If the cars were restricted to 700pp as they are in the single player the top speed exploit would be nowhere near as effective and on most tracks you'd be at a disadvantage.
Funnily enough, try the same thing at the new 600pp Tokyo Expressway single player event. Because everyone is in a road car they all have a lot more power than Gr.4 cars have at 630pp. As a result running the top speed exploit is not possible because other cars are reaching 180mph on the straight while you are stuck at 149mph.
- 1,538
- NRW - GT
AND? With that you can´t win any interessting Race or things like this.... So its only stupid not more to do things like this.
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- 4,864
- Kentucky
- barrett5
- BarrettMopar
And it can go as low as 75 pp but only go 200 mph so it doesn't win that race. I think what could be the most interesting would be to make a custom race of the very low pp transmission glitch vehicles because I don't know how the AI would cope with the gearing. Once I get a few more unique vehicles to race, I will do a custom race. I do still have a few ideas for unique vehicles left.
- 670
- London
- potatoe506
Yes and that is different to the 149mph max speed exploit to which I was responding to.
Like I said, a couple of weird exploits which exist in a system which works as intended 99% of the time. Literally every game has bugs and exploits. If they fix these exploits more will come up. There are other bugs that haven't been brought up here, on some cars if you put literally one kg of ballast and change the positioning of it you get significant PP drops which whether they are reflected or not on track, shouldn't be happening. I think the only problem they have is that they are using it as an restrictor when it should either be used purely as a gauge, or it should be used alongside other types of restrictions that are impossible to exploit, like power/weight ratio restrictions.
- 679
- mrPetros
if you cant manage it without wall riding...well that's on you and your skill
however, for the nth time you are out of topic
Here's the thing though... you are isolating every single thing per case, and try to come up with examples saying that "well, thats no real problem, it works as intended 99% of the time"
and that unfortunately is not the case.
I named this topic "Tuning system is broken", and that goes for a wide range of things: transmission, aero, camber, ballast, etc and their conjunction.
there is really no merit in trying to argue that "yes, but it doesnt matter almost all of the time"
Tuning system is broken and really needs a re-make. Pretending that is not the reality really serves no good purpose in my opinion.
I read earlier people that are worried if polyphony patch-out the tomahawk.
I dont think they will. Because if they do, its just a matter of time that people will fiddle around with the broken tuning system on another car, and they will manage to "create" the next tomahawk.
The problem lies in overhauling the entire system. And the people pretending that "ah, this is just fine" are not helping making the game any better.
my 2c's
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- 670
- London
- potatoe506
But the system doesn't need an overhaul lol, the two biggest issues right now are the 149mph top speed exploit, and the transmission exploit. There are other oddities but they don't enable the impossible, just a matter of small margins.
I am aware that it is possible to find disproportionate differences in PP while making small changes to aero, ballast, differential etc. but these are relative small fry, impossible to truly eliminate until we have the computing power and technology for A.I. to test drive our cars and produce a performance measure that captures every aspect of a car in an instant. And even then it wouldn't be perfect because race tracks are too different from each other, you would have to produce a result for literally every track and racing condition (because in the dry a RWD car might be as good as a 4WD car but when it rains the 4WD car gets an advantage). This idea of a PP system that is seemingly as powerful and all knowing as any God that man has ever dreamt up is an impossible and totally unrealistic thing to hope for, yet alone ask for.
The system does work 99% of the time until players try and find exploits for it. What else is there to say really? We are talking about a system that doesn't work properly with the Tomahawk, a car which is routinely criticised for being completely removed from the physics of reality. Use any other car and it works fine. The top speed exploit could easily be fixed via simple changes to how PP is recorded. Instead of just using the value at 150mph, record and use more values from 100, 120, and 140mph. That's it. Transmission exploit could be fixed by limiting how wide you can set the gear ratios. Does that really seem like an overhaul?
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- 1,538
- NRW - GT
If YOU don't like what I write, then YOU shouldn't create a public topic. Then think your part and that's it. If YOU are looking for all sorts of tricks to manipulate the current system of calculating PP value, then this is your business. But then also accept that others do NOT see the problems you "manipulate" or see these exceptional cases as not so dramatic. And like I said, it's my opinion that if you ride the Tomahawk and change it soooo much that it's in a ridiculously easy league, then don't be surprised that others see it as "pointless".
- 1,372
- Serbia
- Warlock__SRB
BoP/PP can easily be solved and fixed... Simply, there is weight, power, torque and chassis aero, and this is base for BoP/PP...
If for example you add custom gearbox or any other part BoP/PP changes, BUT it doesn't change anymore if you fiddle with gear ratios, there is no need for this...
If for example you add custom aero parts, splitter, wing, diffuser etc... BoP/PP should change... but changing aero values of custom aero parts should change BoP/PP...
In real live, let's say in GT3 race, BoP is set by weight, power, torque and chassis aero... one can fiddle with dif, aero and suspension without a problem, and BoP won't change... gearbox is set in GT3 cars, maybe they have different final drive ratios, but it is too much of a hustle to exchange gearbox...
But this is really simple solution, and would fix a tons of issues, any thoughts?
...and we need ability to get Wide Body off the car!!!
If for example you add custom gearbox or any other part BoP/PP changes, BUT it doesn't change anymore if you fiddle with gear ratios, there is no need for this...
If for example you add custom aero parts, splitter, wing, diffuser etc... BoP/PP should change... but changing aero values of custom aero parts should change BoP/PP...
In real live, let's say in GT3 race, BoP is set by weight, power, torque and chassis aero... one can fiddle with dif, aero and suspension without a problem, and BoP won't change... gearbox is set in GT3 cars, maybe they have different final drive ratios, but it is too much of a hustle to exchange gearbox...
But this is really simple solution, and would fix a tons of issues, any thoughts?
...and we need ability to get Wide Body off the car!!!
