Ultimate Driving Simulator, on MR Cars

[Malcolm Tucker]

You actually mean the suspensions changing geometry in general, not changing to toe out like the mr2. Right? The way you worded your first response could confuse most people into thinking that geometry change to toe out is normal. And now we've had multiple replies/questions between us to clear it up. BMW guys.... I swear...
(elbow to rib)

lol I'm not a BMW guy, I should have thought before using a BMW as an example

What I meant is that suspension geometry on most cars is never constant, it's designed to change to suit different situations eg when the rear experiences a lot of rear lift, it generally means you are decelerating so it toes in to increase rear stability. I can't be specific for different cars, the BMW I was referring to was the E36 (the rear axle/geometry is actually the same on the E46 as well except there's more aluminium. I'm not a BMW guy honest)

It's pointless discussing this though, who know's if PD replicate change in geometry like this, and the fact that all road cars have 0.00 camber and 0.10 toe in the tune settings means it's hard to come to conclusions about a lot of things re GT6 physics

 

[Lawndart]

Having driven nearly all types of cars, at speed, competitively, I'm going to Eco a couple things I've said in other threads...

Snap sensation (unintended reaction) - falling off the cliff, loosing control quickly "something broke"

Kick sensation (intentional action) - sudden abrupt motion within the performance envelope that is induced by the driver. You try and kick as a reaction to a mistake, and you can over to it.

Drifters kick their car sideways, not snap them. Its a skill, not a reaction.

There is a reason racers say; "the car got away from me..."

And again; "nothing in auto racing 'snaps' unless there is a mechanical failure or oil on the track.

In real life;
MR cars are the easiest to drive because the entire mass of the car moves more predictably in a single direction so tires work more collectively, not as much front or rear bias to balance/control. Consequently they are harder to recover beyond the envelope for the exact same reason. Its a trade off.

FR cars are the hardest as they 'push' power from a lighter rear to a heavy front. There is a sizable envelope to correct. And a balance that is clearly felt through you're butt and adjusting angle of attack can be manipulated rather predictably with throttle. More control is the trade off for more things to balance (racers mostly prefer FR, as control and skill is their main tools)

RR require an entirely different driving style and has inherent advantages as the weight is over the power axels and they put power down instantly, especially effective in weather. You do everything earlier, including getting on the throttle sooner at corner exit. The rear controls the entire car much like a boat, the front carves. In short, its point and shoot. You are either a Porsche factory racer with uniquely developed skills to the RR car, or you're not and driving anything else.

FF cars are actually quite challenging as you feel much less, its easy for the rear to go loose and relies on throttle to keep it planted. Torsion flex often lightens one side of the car while turning and lack of feel do to the pull characteristics creates a more reactionary behavior as it's easier to get on the throttle early but you can cook a power wheel pretty easily and this forces you to back off... Do this a few times and your tire is gone. FF race cars are mostly found in spec series like BTCC or in their own class or cup series.

4wd is like a FR with the added pull effect that helps balance the car but the weight of the system often outweighs the benefits as you're trading performance for tire eating stability... Unless your Nissan who has invested two decades in aids to compensate... PD was part of that development btw, beyond the screen interface. A lot more can be said about these cars but do to the advantage in weather it can unbalance a race series and why there really are few all wheel drive factory race cars. I jump at any chance to drive one in a race if there is even a hint of rain...

That is about as short and simple as I can keep it from a driver perspective, but one thing is for sure, nothing in auto racing 'snaps', in fact auto racing is very fluid and more about a smooth flow and when you exceed limits it's actually quite slow and linear, but a race driver with a 190 pulse and adrenaline makes everything seem slow so what it looks like in an instant of a video feels like minutes in the cockpit.

Currently, that sensation people get in stock MR race cars feels more like a rear blowout or failed control arm than natural, it even forces you to over compensate in exactly the same way. But it's less exaggerated the lower you go in PP for obvious reasons. I suspect its a flaw in weight and aero. Check my posting history for that theory.

People who prefer oversteer likely don't mind it as much in GT 6 but the fact is its too sensitive and does compromise the benefits of why one chooses to race an MR car. And congrats for learning to compensate, real drivers are always having to compensate in some way as the perfect set up is a black art heavily dependent on driving style...

In real life, a car that is 'hard' to drive is lazy driver speak fora lousy setup... And why its always a mechanic asking why?

I don't spend much time with MR cars anymore in GT 6 because its counter intuitive to what I know as a driver, whereas other cars do what I expect them to do for the most part, even when setup poorly. A good setup increases stability, that's it. It's what you do with that stability and new found confidence that amounts to reduced lap times.

If a car is inherently unstable you can improve it but as a platform it's still more compensating than enhancing.

PS I type all my messages on a phone with my thumb so pardon odd wording (auto correct) at times... My posts are even too long for me to edit

 

[BLACK86]

Thanks for all that lawndart and anything else in the future, we are so lucky to have a race car driver willing to give some time and valuable info to us about the game.

 

[OdeFinn]

@Lawndart, common problem with MR cars is too heavy foot, on throttle and on brake.
Game is not giving you that "holy 🤬 its going and going, when this acceleration is ending" feeling when slamming more throttle than it is accelerating at once, after finding right amount of progressive pedal usage MR cars start behave as you want them to behave.

 

[super_gt]

 

[Swagger897]

the R8s are AWD

And also mid engine layout and most of the power sent to the rear wheels

I know they are using the Quattro system, but I believe the distribution is from 15-85 to 30-70. I'm not sure exactly what it was that day, but it isn't quite an AWD to me. However, the GT3 car is basically a standard 4.2 and has more brackets for the pit lift, and structural integrity. I got to take a tour at the plant when I went to Munich a while back ( during the weekend ) and see them make some GT cars. I'm not sure what category it was they were made, but it wasn't that drastic from the production...

 

[brianwong]

But wasn't the reason the NSX and MR2 exhibited snap oversteer because they were tuned or developed by racing drivers?

Informative but we don't know what kind of tires he's on. In GT6 every car handles like that on on Comfort Hards or Mediums given enough power. If he's on decent street tires...and 20+ years ago, they are probably no better than CH or CM's...if...

To be fair modern street tires should all be in the comfort class. Sports tires are semi slick track tires.

 

[brianwong]

mods please delete

 

[LS Chiou]

@OdeFinn, Nice driving! I can't see the motion of steering wheel, but I guess your corrections must be very quick & precise.👍 I wonder if it's in your blood, you guys are probably accustomed to going sideways on snow!

Yes I know the 'principles' of driving such tail happy MR/RR. It's just difficult (for me) to pay full concentration to catch each & every snap for a long enough period, or enough to fight against opponents in a race. By comparison, there're many other MR cars are so stable and so easy to drive, so I wonder why. Nevertheless, I've tried very hard on those difficult ones, believe me.

Say, I finally won the rainy Spa by BTR, with intermedium, 75kg in front and 8:8 brake bias, without aids. I know the AI's are very slow in the corners, and the tuned up BTR is at least as fast as other hypercars in the straight, so I have the chance. I reset my goal from 'winning the race' to 'stay on track', I tried braking early and gently, easy on gas... etc. for simply staying on tarmac. There're still some surprising snaps I had to deal with, but not fatal, luckily. By this, I gradually gained positions and finally won. I'm very glad I did it.

And then, I was not so successful on dirt. It seems less necessary to use ballast on dirt, but the low traction surface, too much rotation, and peaky power band are not easy to deal with all at the same time.

Later I thought, is it a coincidence that those tail happy MR/RR has F/R distribution of 41:59 ? BTR, CTR, Cizeta V16T, Diablo, Stratos..., I found they are all the same. And some ballast in front are all doing good thing to them: better balance, less snappy, easier to do effective corrections. It seems the sweet spot is somewhere near 45:55. (oh, I feel Cizeta is not snappy, it's a dumbass, but very over)

Then I thought, what if those inherently stable cars are tuned to 41:59? Would they act like the snappy ones? Guess what, they wouldn't! They are still stable, not snappy at all.

I brought up Zonda C12S, Ford GT, Jaguar XJ220, Saleen S7, Enzo, NSX... etc., and put some ballast at the rear to get 41:59, except the S7, which is 52:48 in stock (!!) and can only tuned to 45:55 by 200kg at the tail. These stable MR cars present more oversteer by the rear ballast for sure, but they all remain progressive and still nicely balanced overall. No snappy drama whatsoever, no LSD trick is needed.

It's interesting, but I have no idea why. Difference in suspension technologies? Hmmm.... Like I once mentioned, I don't think the intuitive hardware tell the whole story...


BTW, I really like the suspension walkaround in this site: http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/sitemap.html

Just seeing the photos alone is enjoyable. A good read, FYR.

 

[research]

...

Snap sensation (unintended reaction) - falling off the cliff, loosing control quickly "something broke"

Kick sensation (intentional action) - sudden abrupt motion within the performance envelope that is induced by the driver. You try and kick as a reaction to a mistake, and you can over to it.

Drifters kick their car sideways, not snap them. Its a skill, not a reaction.

There is a reason racers say; "the car got away from me..."

And again; "nothing in auto racing 'snaps' unless there is a mechanical failure or oil on the track.

Mr. Dart. I'm sure you're aware that the general nomenclature in the autosport world is "snap-oversteer" for such sensations, as has been used in many automotive publications. We just can't describe this very sudden loss of the rear as "kick-oversteer".

I understand what you're trying to convey- but a handful of vehicles, even IRL, can exhibit a feeling that is exactly like the traction loss of a rear tire hitting an oil slick (when riding on the limit). Now, of course, regaining traction with a tire covered in oil is going to be a whole different story, but we're just talking about the initial loss.

... Currently, that sensation people get in stock MR race cars feels more like a rear blowout or failed control arm than natural, it even forces you to over compensate in exactly the same way. But it's less exaggerated the lower you go in PP for obvious reasons. I suspect its a flaw in weight and aero. ...

I see your weight and aero, and raise you some gravity. Ever see a cone travel 100 meters at a height of 20 meters IRL? Something is up with the gravity in this simulator...

 

[OdeFinn]

@LS Chiou, BTR don't need so quick steering as Yellow Bird does, driving around Nordschleife with YB gives same type of fun as on that old video (and really same kind of steering ):


And RWD (or 4WD) with snow... what else you need

 

[LS Chiou]

What I said is not "quick steering", it's the "corrections". The correction can be a type of steering oh well, but I mean the counter steering for balancing the oversteer etc.

Great video, I saw that before. What a car and what a driver!

And, I feel BTR is even more snappier than CTR in GT6, no?

 

[CarreraGT]

delete

Delete what?

 

[CarreraGT]

Did you notice the pumping of the brakes to create a pendulum action? It's not exactly proof. GT6 does it on stock cars on solid braking. The gov't would never let a car that behaved like that to be sold. Show me any motor trend or car and driver braking test where a car does this.

Exactly. MR's are a joke and the fact that PD try and adjust the way they handle with every update shows how hopeless their physics model is. I love the way RWD cars handle in GT6 but mid engined are a joke, it's a real shame

 

[OdeFinn]

And, I feel BTR is even more snappier than CTR in GT6, no?

Same thing on quicker, counter steer had to be fast on CTR, and some places wanking as that guy on video

BTR is "slower" on all aspects, easier until you push it out of control, point where you can just start praying is there, on CTR there is still power left for correcting on higher speeds, until it lefts from control.

CTR can fly sideways easily 150kmh because of power, throttle is savior when rear takes different track around corner. Many times it is just easier to slide thru turns, balancing counter steer and normal steer with throttle is just plain fun, it snaps a bit but not terminal snapping, some waving will be there if making even small mistake.
BTR lack of power limits it harder to control on high speed, if you do steering(brake/throttle/wheel) error.

BTR is snappier on high speeds (lack of power), less bodyroll (wider body) makes it easier to control on slower speeds.

Too tired to write... sorry.

 

[OdeFinn]

Chris Harris with pale face few words about Stratos and S4 B group

... OT now head to bed.

 

[LS Chiou]

Oh! How I wish the Strato in GT6 has those fat tires !

 

[Gunma36]

Incredible Markku Alen...looks like a racing grandpa...funny how he describes the Stratos noise "Pavarotti!"

 

[Stotty]

In real life;

MR cars are the easiest to drive because the entire mass of the car moves more predictably in a single direction so tires work more collectively, not as much front or rear bias to balance/control. Consequently they are harder to recover beyond the envelope for the exact same reason. Its a trade off.

FR cars are the hardest as they 'push' power from a lighter rear to a heavy front. There is a sizable envelope to correct. And a balance that is clearly felt through you're butt and adjusting angle of attack can be manipulated rather predictably with throttle. More control is the trade off for more things to balance (racers mostly prefer FR, as control and skill is their main tools)

RR require an entirely different driving style and has inherent advantages as the weight is over the power axels and they put power down instantly, especially effective in weather. You do everything earlier, including getting on the throttle sooner at corner exit. The rear controls the entire car much like a boat, the front carves. In short, its point and shoot. You are either a Porsche factory racer with uniquely developed skills to the RR car, or you're not and driving anything else.

FF cars are actually quite challenging as you feel much less, its easy for the rear to go loose and relies on throttle to keep it planted. Torsion flex often lightens one side of the car while turning and lack of feel do to the pull characteristics creates a more reactionary behavior as it's easier to get on the throttle early but you can cook a power wheel pretty easily and this forces you to back off... Do this a few times and your tire is gone. FF race cars are mostly found in spec series like BTCC or in their own class or cup series.

Broadly agree, but I wouldn’t say MR cars are the easiest to drive fast/at the limit. Most people can cope with traction oversteer (ie; the car loses grip on the exit of a corner due to too much gas), but will struggle with momentum oversteer (where the weight of the car is causing the slide). Momentum oversteer tends to happen at much higher speeds and is much more difficult to manage.

It’s momentum oversteer that causes ‘the car got away from me comments’ for the most part.

Overall, I’d say FR are the easiest cars for most people to drive – go too fast and the car will understeer, which is much easier for most people to deal with than oversteer. Far less use of momentum to manage turn in with FR than a MR or RR.

Of course you still get ‘the car got away from me comments’ for a FR when the car has a very narrow grip limit and rotates very quickly once the tyres start to spin… in GT6, this feeling is more pronounced with slick tyres (as it should be), but is still there with other compounds.

Currently, that sensation people get in stock MRracecars feels more like a rear blowout or failed control arm than natural, it even forces you to over compensate in exactly the same way. But it's less exaggerated the lower you go in PP for obvious reasons. I suspect its a flaw in weight and aero. Check my posting history for that theory.

I don't spend much time with MR cars anymore in GT 6 because its counter intuitive to what I know as a driver, whereas other cars do what I expect them to do for the most part, even when setup poorly. A good setup increases stability, that's it. It's what you do with that stability and new found confidence that amounts to reduced lap times.

If a car is inherently unstable you can improve it but as a platform it's still more compensating than enhancing.

Broadly agree that there’s something wrong in the MR physics – I think it’s got something to do with how they have modelled weight distribution/transfer, but the way the tyres behave once they start sliding magnifies the effect. However, don’t write them off!

I haven’t driven them all, but some MR cars are still really nice (at least stock on stock tyres), and some are actually better in GT6 than 5.

The 430 Ferraris (Scud/SP1/430) are all much nicer than GT5, where they simply understeered. Now they have some rotation. The 458 is a proper missile now. The Honda NSX is still lovely stock, and the Lotus Esprit V8 has just perfect handling.

Some, however, are just plain horrible

 

[Lawndart]

Mr. Dart. I'm sure you're aware that the general nomenclature in the autosport world is "snap-oversteer" for such sensations, as has been used in many automotive publications. We just can't describe this very sudden loss of the rear as "kick-oversteer".

I understand what you're trying to convey- but a handful of vehicles, even IRL, can exhibit a feeling that is exactly like the traction loss of a rear tire hitting an oil slick (when riding on the limit). Now, of course, regaining traction with a tire covered in oil is going to be a whole different story, but we're just talking about the initial loss.




I see your weight and aero, and raise you some gravity. Ever see a cone travel 100 meters at a height of 20 meters IRL? Something is up with the gravity in this simulator...

"Snap oversteer" without a mechanical is simply a car that is already on the edge and an inexperienced driver attempting to correct it. Basically they have already lost control of their own ability to handle the car and the reaction throws the car out of the performance envelope. I don't belabor this point because its driver error and as such a reaction that induces it.

Gravity is an interesting thought, but not likely a force that exceeds the weight, but if gravity does govern the system, but not evenly, then perhaps... But that even harder to deduce... The cones could mearly have no real physical properties like real life and that would make sence as cones in the real world tend to always get stuck under the car... They are the worst intentional obstical on a race track.

Broadly agree, but I wouldn’t say MR cars are the easiest to drive fast/at the limit. Most people can cope with traction oversteer (ie; the car loses grip on the exit of a corner due to too much gas), but will struggle with momentum oversteer (where the weight of the car is causing the slide). Momentum oversteer tends to happen at much higher speeds and is much more difficult to manage.

It’s momentum oversteer that causes ‘the car got away from me comments’ for the most part.

Overall, I’d say FR are the easiest cars for most people to drive – go too fast and the car will understeer, which is much easier for most people to deal with than oversteer. Far less use of momentum to manage turn in with FR than a MR or RR.

Of course you still get ‘the car got away from me comments’ for a FR when the car has a very narrow grip limit and rotates very quickly once the tyres start to spin… in GT6, this feeling is more pronounced with slick tyres (as it should be), but is still there with other compounds.



Broadly agree that there’s something wrong in the MR physics – I think it’s got something to do with how they have modelled weight distribution/transfer, but the way the tyres behave once they start sliding magnifies the effect. However, don’t write them off!

I haven’t driven them all, but some MR cars are still really nice (at least stock on stock tyres), and some are actually better in GT6 than 5.

The 430 Ferraris (Scud/SP1/430) are all much nicer than GT5, where they simply understeered. Now they have some rotation. The 458 is a proper missile now. The Honda NSX is still lovely stock, and the Lotus Esprit V8 has just perfect handling.

Some, however, are just plain horrible

My comments are for real world only. And you pointed out the very reason they are easier to drive... As a single mass pushing in a given direction, it's very pronounced and easy to feel as a driver. Not as much in GT 6.

In RL the 'rule' to regaining a slide in an MR car is to do nothing... Not even lift more than 10% off the throttle or steer. Just let the car decelerate enough to regain (return to the envelope) control, much the same rule for all cars sliding in the wet. Spinning an MR car in real life is nearly impossible to recover from.

So its ironic to your point that what's commonly accepted in real life is a bit reversed in GT. It would make more sense if FR cars were harder to handle but after years of tuning the sim system they found a good balance... You would think they would have done the same with MR cars... Hmm

 

[BLACK86]

In RL the 'rule' to regaining a slide in an MR car is to do nothing..

This is exactly what i do in gt6 and it works everytime for most of my slides, however when the rear steps out too much i have to counter steer

 

[RSnider]

I mentioned this one time in a thread similar to this dealing with mainly the R8 LMS, but I have driven an R8 (4.2 V8). Although no where near the Bilstein and such not, it is relatively close to the GT3. However, i should say that i drove it in Audi's experience program (or whatever it is called) where you can drive the RS5, TTRS, and the R8 on a track near you. I live in Atlanta so the track it was hosted at was Road Atlanta. Although the track isn't in GT, i have information to share about an MR.

Like others have mentioned, you don't ever want to lift in a knee-jerk reaction. Otherwise, you will get too much turn in and spin, like we do in the game. Hitting the power is a bit of a no-no as well when in the corner, as it will handle like an R8 LMS in the game. However, I have barely noticed it in GT6 but they seem to have implemented the fish tail effect where i can keep the wheel perfectly straight, and the back swings out and then comes under controller after 20 yards or so (note, it wont work in all MR cars, but in my case it did, esp on a track right after PLM).

However, my information shouldn't be taken too much for consideration. I only did three laps with the car, one out lap, one hot lap, and the in lap because the car literally scared me to death. I learned what I and others have explained above, not to lift, punch, or try to turn in but use more acceleration rather. I chose after that to drive the RS5 because I thought it was a bit more suited for me, and I felt that I could actually drive it really hard for a good 15 minutes (or 3-4 laps).

Overall with the characteristics of the R8 LMS, I have two opinions.
1. It is a bit difficult even with a "decent" tune to keep up to cars such as a Z06, or even the Schulze. You cant really take hard turns with apex's more than 45* balls to the wall, but you cant take them too slow either. You just have to keep the tires spinning (rolling) without the LSD actually coming into mess everything up. If you go too fast, the rear wheel on the outside seems to spin way too fast to flip you out, and if you go too slow, the inside wheels seem to stop or slow down. There is that 49-2-49 chance you actually hit that perfect speed every time starting out. I mean, it's not like it's our career to drive these things because they are paid to win...

2. Once you feel as if the LSD is the problem, if you don't race in the cockpit view, your going to want to after this. I rarely ever drive anything but the roof view, however one day I wanted to drive the cockpit in the R8 LMS. I noticed going into the first hairpin at Silverstone (sorry, not familiar yet with the track turn names) that my wheel turns to the left a lot more than some of the other cars do at the same speed. I tried it with a BMW GT2 and I noticed that (at least the hands) dont go that far to the left as the R8 does. I then thought, could the deadzone for this car just be non-existant, or is there not a lock on the steering radius causing this? Im not sure exactly as to the actual steering deadzones of the R8, but I feel as if that is the problem with the car. Any other car I can take balls to the walls and go into a turn full left, and not have a problem, (and it being an MR) and I cant replicate it with an R8. Im not an expert, but those are my thoughts of the car...

I know exactly that to which you are referring. It's like X degrees of analogue stick input (or wheel rotation) in car A turns the front wheels a different amount than the same input in car B. The end result is effectively flicking the steering as you begin to turn in.

Another theory I have is, if you look back to previous GT games (when playing with a controller, at least), you can apply full analogue stick input, but the game would only turn the wheels until you started to understeer. I've noticed more and more with GT6, it feels like this automatic "steering limiter" isn't as conservative, so you end up applying WAY too much steering input. The important thing to remember here is, the large majority of players with controllers, whether they realize it or not, apply full analogue stick input in every corner, and the game simply limits the actual steering to what the car can handle in those conditions and this is how we've learned to play ever since GT1. Now, if that steering limiter is altered, you have all these people driving the same way they always have (applying fully steering input in every corner), except now you have the wheels of the car actually turning more than previously allowed, so you wind up with wildly exaggerated steering inputs and we all know what you would expect to happen when you wildly throw a car into a corner, especially a MR layout - you're going for a ride.

I think the bigger issue isn't why do some cars handle so poorly; rather, what the hell is going on with the control inputs and filters on some cars while others seem to behave perfectly normal.

 

[Lawndart]

This is exactly what i do in gt6 and it works everytime for most of my slides, however when the rear steps out too much i have to counter steer

Exactly, it's that MR cars rear ends seems to rotate to the front very quick in GT 6, almost like a motorcycle high siding. Its much easier to react with a wheel as the controllers built in 'aid' that reduces rate of steer isn't quick enough to counter.

Next time you watch a spin on TV, notice how the driver doesn't turn in the spin, but actually straightens the wheel. The rear stepping out you can conterstear, but a slide, counterstearing actually accelerates the spin as it removes any counter resistance...

 

[Swagger897]

I know exactly that to which you are referring. It's like X degrees of analogue stick input (or wheel rotation) in car A turns the front wheels a different amount than the same input in car B. The end result is effectively flicking the steering as you begin to turn in.

Another theory I have is, if you look back to previous GT games (when playing with a controller, at least), you can apply full analogue stick input, but the game would only turn the wheels until you started to understeer. I've noticed more and more with GT6, it feels like this automatic "steering limiter" isn't as conservative, so you end up applying WAY too much steering input. The important thing to remember here is, the large majority of players with controllers, whether they realize it or not, apply full analogue stick input in every corner, and the game simply limits the actual steering to what the car can handle in those conditions and this is how we've learned to play ever since GT1. Now, if that steering limiter is altered, you have all these people driving the same way they always have (applying fully steering input in every corner), except now you have the wheels of the car actually turning more than previously allowed, so you wind up with wildly exaggerated steering inputs and we all know what you would expect to happen when you wildly throw a car into a corner, especially a MR layout - you're going for a ride.

I think the bigger issue isn't why do some cars handle so poorly; rather, what the hell is going on with the control inputs and filters on some cars while others seem to behave perfectly normal.

Finally.... Someone with the same thought..

 

[LVracerGT]

My comments are for real world only. And you pointed out the very reason they are easier to drive... As a single mass pushing in a given direction, it's very pronounced and easy to feel as a driver. Not as much in GT 6.

In RL the 'rule' to regaining a slide in an MR car is to do nothing... Not even lift more than 10% off the throttle or steer. Just let the car decelerate enough to regain (return to the envelope) control, much the same rule for all cars sliding in the wet. Spinning an MR car in real life is nearly impossible to recover from.

So its ironic to your point that what's commonly accepted in real life is a bit reversed in GT. It would make more sense if FR cars were harder to handle but after years of tuning the sim system they found a good balance... You would think they would have done the same with MR cars... Hmm

I have to respectfully disagree. Having driven in real life myself, and having spent a season working as a mechanic at Skip Barber at Lime Rock with driving instructors who have spent the majority of their life behind the wheel, the "rule" to catching a slide in an MR car is to actually roll on the throttle a little to transition the weight over the rear tires. Lifting would only transition more weight to the front and make the slide worse.

As far as I've been able to tell from driving GT6 the same rule applies, and it's worked for me every time, in real life and GT6. I actually wonder how many people are taking into account weight transition and how much of a factor it is in GT6 since it was largely absent in the GT5 physics model.

 

[Lawndart]

I have to respectfully disagree. Having driven in real life myself, and having spent a season working as a mechanic at Skip Barber at Lime Rock with driving instructors who have spent the majority of their life behind the wheel, the "rule" to catching a slide in an MR car is to actually roll on the throttle a little to transition the weight over the rear tires. Lifting would only transition more weight to the front and make the slide worse.

As far as I've been able to tell from driving GT6 the same rule applies, and it's worked for me every time, in real life and GT6. I actually wonder how many people are taking into account weight transition and how much of a factor it is in GT6 since it was largely absent in the GT5 physics model.

I don't think your actually disagreeing as much as you're adding to it. It depends how your sliding as the adding throttle is not exclusive to MR but it is about transitioning grip.

Applying throttle to control a spin is used by all car types, it helps when spinning to the inside of FR cars (mostly from lifting at the slip angle mid turn), and planting FF rear ends (like the bottom of the foxhole on the ring)... So you are right in the sense that I could have said +/- 10% but in GT 6 with how it uses a digressive traction model, applying throttle in most circumstances accelerates lose of mechanical grip... Outweighing any benefits of weight transfer.

Congrats if you've found this dynamic in GT 6, it's very inconsistent for me with a controller, not so much with a wheel as I use neutral throttle to good effect in this scenario... But not adding throttle, please share your technique.

 

[z06fun]

I have to respectfully disagree. Having driven in real life myself, and having spent a season working as a mechanic at Skip Barber at Lime Rock with driving instructors who have spent the majority of their life behind the wheel, the "rule" to catching a slide in an MR car is to actually roll on the throttle a little to transition the weight over the rear tires. Lifting would only transition more weight to the front and make the slide worse.

As far as I've been able to tell from driving GT6 the same rule applies, and it's worked for me every time, in real life and GT6. I actually wonder how many people are taking into account weight transition and how much of a factor it is in GT6 since it was largely absent in the GT5 physics model.

This is 100% correct, I have raced many different MR cars and you always go to the throttle to regain the rear, as long as you didn't initially lose the rear because of too much throttle, which would be in the rain or with a very high hp MR car With that said, I don't feel it works properly in GT6 because the tires tend to over heat instantly with any sliding of the rear, and so when you add throttle back to add weight to them they have already lost lots of grip because they are red or almost red. Although it *seems* like maybe they have improved the tire model a bit in v1.04 and the tires don't overheat as quickly, not sure here though.

As I've stated in a few other posts, I have raced many many different cars in real life, for the past 15 years, including MR/RR cars, and I love the changes they have made to the physics in GT6 vs GT5, and love love love driving them in GT6 vs GT5 and previous GT's, because they feel so much more real/correct to me. Yes some of them have way too much front grip to start out with, but that is simply a balance problem. In GT5 they had some severe physics issues like not laying down power even though all of the weight was over the drive wheels, and the balance didn't change properly (or at all?) with throttle for many of them.

In my experience the MR and RR cars are the hardest to drive in real life because of the HUGE balance change you can get with throttle. I could go in to the physics of why that is in detail, but the cliff notes is that, for MR and RR cars the CG is very close to the drive wheels, and so the torque x small lever arm acting on the CG causes HUGE weight change on the front tires, combined with some opposite weight change on the rears. This doesn't happen to the same degree for a typical FR because the CG is much farther away from the wheels exerting the torque. The weight change up front on MR or RR is so dramatic that the front will go very numb under heavy throttle and the car will tend to just want to go straight. Also, MR/RR cars tend to have small wheel base also which makes them a bit less stable (reduces their already low polar moment of inertia).

With all that being said, I tend to prefer typical FR over MR/RR cars in real life because they don't pickup much additional understeer under throttle like an MR/RR does. So if you balance an FR for a small amount of over steer under throttle lift, they still turn well under throttle.

 

[LVracerGT]

I don't think your actually disagreeing as much as you're adding to it. It depends how your sliding as the adding throttle is not exclusive to MR but it is about transitioning grip.

Applying throttle to control a spin is used by all car types, it helps when spinning to the inside of FR cars (mostly from lifting at the slip angle mid turn), and planting FF rear ends (like the bottom of the foxhole on the ring)... So you are right in the sense that I could have said +/- 10% but in GT 6 with how it uses a digressive traction model, applying throttle in most circumstances accelerates lose of mechanical grip... Outweighing any benefits of weight transfer.

Congrats if you've found this dynamic in GT 6, it's very inconsistent for me with a controller, not so much with a wheel as I use neutral throttle to good effect in this scenario... But not adding throttle, please share your technique.

Ah, see I exclusively play with the G27, the DFGT before that, the DFP before that, and whatever the Blue gripped Logitech wheel was for GT3 before that. The only thing I use the DS3 for in GT is to navigate menus.

As for sharing my technique, I can't really explain that on a forum. I was put in a go kart when I was 6 so I actually had to adapt to right foot braking once I was old enough to drive a full size car, where with most people it's the other way around, and I didn't even know I knew how to trail brake before I knew what it was. Almost all of my driving technique was self taught, I've never owned an automatic transmission car IRL and taught myself how to heel-toe. I only learned a few tricks with brake pressure and weight transition during my time at Skip Barber in discussion with instructors. Driving at the limit actually kind of feels like second nature to me, I don't really think about it too much. I'ts just been something that's been an obsession most of my life.

For some reason the producers for SpikeTV for the most recent GT Academy decided to omit my entire home interview which explained all of that, omitted 95% of all my other interviews my entire time at Silverstone, and any every time I performed well (pretty much every challenge) they diverted the attention to another contestant, and that's all I care to reveal on that at this time.

If you want to send me a FR though, I'd be more than happy to just turn laps and discuss what I'm doing in different scenarios.

 

[BLACK86]

I have to respectfully disagree. Having driven in real life myself, and having spent a season working as a mechanic at Skip Barber at Lime Rock with driving instructors who have spent the majority of their life behind the wheel, the "rule" to catching a slide in an MR car is to actually roll on the throttle a little to transition the weight over the rear tires. Lifting would only transition more weight to the front and make the slide worse.

As far as I've been able to tell from driving GT6 the same rule applies, and it's worked for me every time, in real life and GT6. I actually wonder how many people are taking into account weight transition and how much of a factor it is in GT6 since it was largely absent in the GT5 physics model.

I think it depends on the type of slide, if the back starts to slide out then yes easing on the gas smoothly with the right amount can stabilize the car, most of my slides are due to coming into a corner nice and smooth but a little too fast with throttle still open, its like the whole car starts to slide in one lump the back and the front sliding in union, if the slide is matching the corner then i do nothing and let it cancel out, or if the slide is not matching the corner i can ease off ever so slightly and it cancels out just that bit quicker, if you ease off a tiny bit faster you can get the car front to turn more to match the corner then ease on again slowly to stabilize and drive away clean...its a great zone to be in as you can take the whole corner with you right foot....this was all experienced in the diablo gt2

I wish i was skilful enough to do this whenever i want, ive noticed this alot more in gt6 i think its mainly due to me getting out of the comfort hard rut i was in in gt5, and now driving the sports tyres in gt6.

 

[Lawndart]

Ah, see I exclusively play with the G27, the DFGT before that, the DFP before that, and whatever the Blue gripped Logitech wheel was for GT3 before that. The only thing I use the DS3 for in GT is to navigate menus.

As for sharing my technique, I can't really explain that on a forum. I was put in a go kart when I was 6 so I actually had to adapt to right foot braking once I was old enough to drive a full size car, where with most people it's the other way around, and I didn't even know I knew how to trail brake before I knew what it was. Almost all of my driving technique was self taught, I've never owned an automatic transmission car IRL and taught myself how to heel-toe. I only learned a few tricks with brake pressure and weight transition during my time at Skip Barber is discussion with instructors. Driving at the limit actually kind of feels like second nature to me, I don't really think about it too much. I'ts just been something that's been an obsession most of my life.

For some reason the producers for SpikeTV for the most recent GT Academy decided to omit my entire home interview which explained all of that, omitted 95% of all my other interviews my entire time at Silverstone, and any every time I performed well (pretty much every challenge) they diverted the attention to another contestant, and that's all I care to reveal on that at this time.

If you want to send me a FR though, I'd be more than happy to just turn laps and discuss what I'm doing in different scenarios.

Yeah, using a wheel is a different game. I have a Fanatec Elite but at the end of the day I'm just too tired to pull the whole rig in front of the tv

I just with they had better FF and lower native wheel weight in GT 6, but its a much more enjoyable game with a wheel.

My real racing style is 'rear steering' as I race Spec Miata's (scca) mostly, slightly less HP than Skips. So I depend on rear end rotation while breaking and then 'planting it' with the throttle (neutral) when I'm at the right angle of attack. Not easy to do predictably in GT, but the MRs seemed to do it better than FRs until I realized how narrow the performance envelop is.

I test on Daytona in GT as it has those aggressive closing radius turns...

Btw, some good posts between ours from others, I think we are all onto the same thing, echoing each other