Ultimate Driving Simulator, on MR Cars

[LS Chiou]

Wow, thanks a lot for all the insightful sharings. It's more than I expected.

As some comments above, I also try different ways to deal with different slides. In some situations and some cars, they work. In a few others, they don't. It's pretty much the motivation of starting this thread.

Some mentioned weight distributions, too. In addition to what I wrote in post #99, I'd like to add some more interesting finds. I dig out Lotus Elise, several of them: Race Car '96, Sport 190 '98, 111R '04, and the latest '11, all of joy! A whole bunch of cornering machines! Interestingly, their f/r weight distributions fall around 40:60 (from 39:61 to 42:58). They all have clear tendency of oversteer but no snappy ill-behavior on limits.

The newest '11 has the most rearward bias (39:61), it's amazing it's more than those RR cars. With only 142 ps on its tiny engine, it's equipped with an open differential! And it's actually doing more than fine as that. Slow in the straight as expected and much less brake is needed than other 'normal' cars when approaching corners. Some sense of lively tail, but never too nervous and easy to catch when sliding happens.

Yes it does happen despite the weak power and low speed as the confidence it gives me could be higher than the car is actually capable of. It can compete with cars of twice the power and win - overtaken in the straight but catch them in the corners, thus a fun race. If the engine is tuned up, than I'd like to have an LSD with 20-ish % of lock for easier control. (I believe other better drivers would do just fine without it.)

The more powerful Sport 190 '98 is the most lively in this group. Again, I'd like to have higher initial torque in LSD than the stock one (not too dramatic, 20-ish % is enough). With the help of LSD, it's stable enough to let me push hard at will, yet still a very lively feel, totally fun. (hmm... it's more nervous and harder to drive in GT5 as I remember. Or I didn't use the right LSD setting at that time?)

The similarly powerful 111R '04 is the most stable road car here, coincidentally it's the least rearward biased (42:58). Not as spiritual to drive as other two, but it's just relative. It just feel safer and more planted. Cornering ability is still exceptional. They are all more than capable of fighting with other cars with much much more power.

Finally the Race Car '96, it drives on its own rails! The grip is almost unreal as those X-cars, just slower. Amazing car! Not explored it too much yet. I'll take it to some races to challenge those big guys. Must be fun.

Interestingly, with so rearward distribution, these little Lotus are doing great with their stock suspensions. So the mystery is still unsolved. Or I'm looking at the wrong spot?

I know the choice of tire widths (f/r proportion) and real world suspension tunings play a large role here. Sadly we can't do much in GT6.

 

[research]

this thread is 🤬 awesome.

 

[Stotty]

This is 100% correct, I have raced many different MR cars and you always go to the throttle to regain the rear, as long as you didn't initially lose the rear because of too much throttle, which would be in the rain or with a very high hp MR car With that said, I don't feel it works properly in GT6 because the tires tend to over heat instantly with any sliding of the rear, and so when you add throttle back to add weight to them they have already lost lots of grip because they are red or almost red. Although it *seems* like maybe they have improved the tire model a bit in v1.04 and the tires don't overheat as quickly, not sure here though.

Agree 100% 👍

For the most part, the tyres are the issue with MR cars IMO - yes, some have silly amounts of weight transfer induced oversteer, but the way grip decays once a tyre starts to turn red makes catching any oversteer by rebalancing the weight with the throttle very difficult... not impossible, but the window is very narrow.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Agree 100% 👍

For the most part, the tyres are the issue with MR cars IMO - yes, some have silly amounts of weight transfer induced oversteer, but the way grip decays once a tyre starts to turn red makes catching any oversteer by rebalancing the weight with the throttle very difficult... not impossible, but the window is very narrow.

I took the Stratos out last night for my first post v1.04 drive and noticed that in stock trim on Sports Hards it will light up the rear end from a standing start without popping the clutch so to speak. Just punch the throttle and the wheels spin. I tested a couple of other cars real quick that were as close as I could find power and weight wise and both of them bogged down. I've long suspected PD just programmed less grip into the rear for some reason and that's something that deserves more testing but it's hard to do it "apples to apples" so to speak

 

[psavi]

It's really cool that real life racing drivers are sharing their thoughts and techniques here on the thread. That is really interesting! Keep it up, guys. 👍

I have read a lot of posts here on GTP on the big "MR cars are broken" debate and I would like to share my opinions about it here. I apologize in advance for the long post.

From all the posts of people complaining about the handling of MR cars, not once people were willing to post a video of them driving and explain what kind of behavior they thought it was broken. From what I saw, people were very quick to jump into conclusions that "this car is too hard to control! This car can't be like this IRL! It must be broken". Rarely, people provided information. The most information they gave was that they were driving car X stock with stock tires or with racing softs or whatever. Or they used the stoppie and rollover problem as proof that something must be wrong with the handling physics.

A common misconception that I perceived is that people tend to believe that the car will be more controllable on racing tires than on comfort tires. As pointed by someone on this thread, racing tires are much less progressive and therefore harder to keep on the edge of traction and much harder to catch the slide when the car oversteers.

I see a lot of people claim things like "no way this supercar would come with Comfort tyres in real life, it would come with Super Softs at least". This is completely wrong and the fact that it is possible to match the Nurburgring lap time of the Zonda R (with its slick tires) with Sports Hards is proof enough of that.

About catching slides, as far as I know, the sooner you countersteer, the easier is to catch a slide. If someone had Jedi reflexes and precise inputs, he could go throwing any car on any corner and never lose the back of the car, as long as the cornering speed was right. Common people usually don't have reflexes fast enough to save a racing car from spinning.

Then, in the same threads you have people saying "I have no problem with this car. Learn how to drive. Turn on SRF" without adding anything to the discussion. This posts are completely unnecessary and should stop.

Sometimes, people that have driven the cars IRL appear on threads and say that the car handles nothing like in real life and that the car was on rails. These are great and we really appreciate this inputs, but it is really hard to compare real life experience to the game. Unless you use a scientific method to compare the cars or you drive the real and the virtual cars at the same track, at the same pace, with tires with similar grip and maybe on the same day, you can't really compare the handling characteristics of the car.

Currently my pastime is driving road cars around Nurburgring strictly on Comfort tires, compound depending on the age of the car, trying to match the real life grip and the real lap time. I'm no great driver, but I have no problems worth noting with MR cars. Do I push them to the limit of grip? I certainly try. Do I spin then sometimes? Yes, sir. Do I think it is the car's fault? Hell, no. Am I able to catch the car sliding? If I react quick enough, yes.

Yesterday, I drove the Lancia Stratos around Nurburgring on CHs, which I believe would be the closest to its tires IRL and it was very fun. It's not a tame car and I spun it several times. But I was able to recover from a lot of slides also. And I was able to complete a lap, despite being an improvable lap.

To conclude, I'm not on PD's side saying that everything they do is top notch, because they do make a lot of mistakes, especially on cars' specifications and there might be some modeling errors on the handling properties of any car. But neither do I think that their physics are broken. I actually think that GT6's physics is the best of the series by a large margin.

 

[Dodzzz]

About catching slides, as far as I know, the sooner you countersteer, the easier is to catch a slide. If someone had Jedi reflexes and precise inputs, he could go throwing any car on any corner and never lose the back of the car, as long as the cornering speed was right. Common people usually don't have reflexes fast enough to save a racing car from spinning.

About countersteering in GT6, there are some problems, (steering wheel) input lag, and the inability for us to feel that the car is starting to slide? (But I'm not 100% sure if in real life you can feel that sensation?) the only way we can tell the car is start sliding in GT6 is by listening to the tyre screeching sound..

 

[Lawndart]

Wow, thanks a lot for all the insightful sharings. It's more than I expected.

As some comments above, I also try different ways to deal with different slides. In some situations and some cars, they work. In a few others, they don't. It's pretty much the motivation of starting this thread.

Some mentioned weight distributions, too. In addition to what I wrote in post #99, I'd like to add some more interesting finds. I dig out Lotus Elise, several of them: Race Car '96, Sport 190 '98, 111R '04, and the latest '11, all of joy! A whole bunch of cornering machines! Interestingly, their f/r weight distributions fall around 40:60 (from 39:61 to 42:58). They all have clear tendency of oversteer but no snappy ill-behavior on limits.

The newest '11 has the most rearward bias (39:61), it's amazing it's more than those RR cars. With only 142 ps on its tiny engine, it's equipped with an open differential! And it's actually doing more than fine as that. Slow in the straight as expected and much less brake is needed than other 'normal' cars when approaching corners. Some sense of lively tail, but never too nervous and easy to catch when sliding happens.

Yes it does happen despite the weak power and low speed as the confidence it gives me could be higher than the car is actually capable of. It can compete with cars of twice the power and win - overtaken in the straight but catch them in the corners, thus a fun race. If the engine is tuned up, than I'd like to have an LSD with 20-ish % of lock for easier control. (I believe other better drivers would do just fine without it.)

The more powerful Sport 190 '98 is the most lively in this group. Again, I'd like to have higher initial torque in LSD than the stock one (not too dramatic, 20-ish % is enough). With the help of LSD, it's stable enough to let me push hard at will, yet still a very lively feel, totally fun. (hmm... it's more nervous and harder to drive in GT5 as I remember. Or I didn't use the right LSD setting at that time?)

The similarly powerful 111R '04 is the most stable road car here, coincidentally it's the least rearward biased (42:58). Not as spiritual to drive as other two, but it's just relative. It just feel safer and more planted. Cornering ability is still exceptional. They are all more than capable of fighting with other cars with much much more power.

Finally the Race Car '96, it drives on its own rails! The grip is almost unreal as those X-cars, just slower. Amazing car! Not explored it too much yet. I'll take it to some races to challenge those big guys. Must be fun.

Interestingly, with so rearward distribution, these little Lotus are doing great with their stock suspensions. So the mystery is still unsolved. Or I'm looking at the wrong spot?

I know the choice of tire widths (f/r proportion) and real world suspension tunings play a large role here. Sadly we can't do much in GT6.

Yes, the issues stick out at around 500pp and higher cars. It's not accurate to assume mimicking power to weight + traction will suddenly bring them inline. Its likely that every other 'force' that really comes into play at higher performance envelopes like DF, 2x weight and the way it transfers at speed, and mechanical grip tolerances is all not working together as they should.

I'm glad other drivers are joining in as well, or that I've joined in with them, but I wouldn't count on videos as our intention isn't as much to educate as it is to lend context further identify the oddities...

Once the physics stop changing it might be easier for drivers to explain 'why' certain thing happen in certain circumstances, but until we have a solid baseline, even a drivers feedback is only relevant to very specific instances. It's why I chose the R8 LMS as my case study, but until certain things make more consistent sense, then even we (drivers) will argue amongst out selves, mostly because we always have to compensate in real cars for something screwy... But MR cars in the 600pp+ are just odd.

Drivers prefer to discuss techniques of driving a car more than the car itself. The car is nothing more than a tool, after a few laps we know enough about the car, it's now time to figure out how to get the job done more efficiently than the other guy, and none of us drive the same car... But I don't mean to speak for others.

Oh, one more thing, drivers inherently don't tend to agree on anything... They are too competitive and that's not limited to the track... And knowing the dangers of their sport, they always maintain some amount of distance... Its like a big dysfunctional family more than close knit friends... But they are inseparable when on the same endurance team...

 

[OdeFinn]

@Dodzzz, no noticeable steering lag if using steering sensitivity 6 or 7 with wheel, personally using 6 with G27.

 

[psavi]

About countersteering in GT6, there are some problems, (steering wheel) input lag, and the inability for us to feel that the car is starting to slide? (But I'm not 100% sure if in real life you can feel that sensation?) the only way we can tell the car is start sliding in GT6 is by listening to the tyre screeching sound..

For the record, I use a G27. I actually disconsider reports about handling from people that use the controller. Sorry, but this game is not for playing with the controller.

Input lag might factor in the equation, but I do feel the car starting to slide through the force feedback of the wheel if I'm really focused.

About real life, you have to remember that you have feedback from everywhere in a car: steering, seat, g-forces, body roll, etc. So I believe it must be much easier to tell in real life.

 

[Johnnypenso]

@Dodzzz, no noticeable steering lag if using steering sensitivity 6 or 7 with wheel, personally using 6 with G27.

Every tv has input lag, has nothing to do with the wheel or the PS3

 

[LS Chiou]

....

I do feel the car starting to slide through the force feedback of the wheel if I'm really focused.

About real life, you have to remember that you have feedback from everywhere in a car: steering, seat, g-forces, body roll, etc. So I believe it must be much easier to tell in real life.

Yes, and that's one of the major problems I have in the game. I'd like to add GT6 is significantly improved, but sadly it still can't recreate reality, mainly the g-forces.

I agree the signs right before the car starting to slide are detectable in many cars and many situations, by which we can do the corrections effectively. However, some are really beyond me - too little or none can be perceived, or too abrupt and too big to catch. Fortunately, by the helps along with this thread (and some others), I gradually found ways to overcome those cases.

Oh, I don't mind sharing the embarrassed moments I have with those tail happy cars. It's just quite a hassle for me to do the recording and uploads etc. I think, with calmness and honesty, described by words are equally effective for communication. Video is great, I agree wholeheartedly, just not very convenient for me. Sorry.

 

[Lawndart]

Input lag is a funny thing that has no effect on me as you get input lag from a real racecar... Or I'm too old and slow to notice.

Just think about the basic function of a car turning; the wheel, through the column, a couple joints, steering box, the steering rack, through the axels, the wheels, and tubes of air supporting about 600lbs+ per axel... (Not even considering the play in any steering system)

Racing is 90% 'sliding' (slip angle, not drifting) and there is lag as you setup for a turn and get all the weight, compression, angle, etc all settled for the turn...

Just wait till they actually put tire flex into GT... The arguments about input lag will go up 10x...

 

[LS Chiou]

Yes, the issues stick out at around 500pp and higher cars. It's not accurate to assume mimicking power to weight + traction will suddenly bring them inline. Its likely that every other 'force' that really comes into play at higher performance envelopes like DF, 2x weight and the way it transfers at speed, and mechanical grip tolerances is all not working together as they should.

Say, before the Elise Race Car '96, I gave Evora a try first. I think this car is another typical Lotus, just not as nimble as other smaller ones. Ah, 'not as nimble' might be somewhat misleading, Evora also has eager turn-in and fast response to driver's inputs. However I feel it's not as alert and sure-footed as Elise around the limit, needs more concentration (and more lock % in LSD to make it easier).

I tuned it up to about 560pp and ran the 15 min Ascari. It's more than capable to match those GT cars. In the 2nd lap, I was very surprised that it flipped over at the corner "Petit Eau Rouge" https://www-unikconcierge.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Ascari-Track.jpg

Maybe I ran into the curb too much, and with most load at the left side, a bump at the right flipped it over. It's not the first time I flip a car, but a first here. Really surprised when the vision was circling in front of me. Nevertheless, with such an accident, it still won the race.

In the replay, the flipping car looks so light, like a piece of cardboard in the wind. The way it rise and fall looks like slow motion, and the proportion between the time in the air and spinning speed is not very right to me.

It's fun, though, if not very real.

Drivers prefer to discuss techniques of driving a car more than the car itself. The car is nothing more than a tool, after a few laps we know enough about the car, it's now time to figure out how to get the job done more efficiently than the other guy, and none of us drive the same car... But I don't mean to speak for others.

Oh, one more thing, drivers inherently don't tend to agree on anything... They are too competitive and that's not limited to the track... And knowing the dangers of their sport, they always maintain some amount of distance... Its like a big dysfunctional family more than close knit friends... But they are inseparable when on the same endurance team...

Ah, another interesting POV. I got the feeling, while you describe it clearly.

I think I'm more of a mechanic than a driver. I'm equally eager in overtaking as other drivers, but for me it's mainly for getting rid of the crowded situation and get some air. I don't like head to head deadlock with any opponent. I feel it dangerous and uncomfortable. So, actually I don't like so many cars on track in the newer game. Too much pressure, especially in those narrow track. (and degrade the frame rate, duh)

OTOH, I like studying the mechanical side of things and enjoy the interactions between me and the machine.

 

[Lion-Face]

I just posted a youtube video on my channel in regards to this.

I bought a stock R8 LMS, took it to Bathurst and put some laps to see how the stock settings perform.



My GT6 video thread - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/new-gt6-youtube-channel.302553/

Comments, criticism welcomed.

 

[Gentoo64]

^ of course you have to drive MR differently, but I still think the game has a major problem with them. It's only this game, MR's don't behave this way on Assetto Corsa, Forza, previous GT's, SImbin games, or any other racing game I've ever played. The lack of oversteer correction is outrageous, once you start to oversteer, you will face (and be stuck on) a wall 99.9% of the time.

If you make the weight balance 50:50 it helps a bit, but that "thing" that makes the cars completely out of control is still there, so it's not a weight position issue, as a 50:50 MR car technically should be identical to a 50:50 FR car as they are both RWD and have completely even constant weight distribution.

It's the game. Also some 4WD cars handle like RR which should technially be impossible with a big engine in front and 4WD layout (regardless of torque distribution and LSD settings).

People can defend the MR handling saying it's perfect, and saying things like the Stratos and F40 aren't the worst, but the best cars they have ever driven, but the game's physics aren't right and I wouldn't trust them after the countless amount of complete screw-ups and bugs that have already been found.

Also, this isn't a plain MR issue, it's individual cars. Cars like the NSX behave nicely and typical MR for example.

 

[Johnnypenso]

More and more this discussion reminds me of the discussion around camber. You have a whole bunch of people on one side who say 0.0/0.0 camber is the fastest setup, and a tiny minority on the other side saying, "I have my car set up with camber and I can drive it and it handles fine". Here you have a whole bunch of people saying there is something wrong with the MR's, they are far more difficult to drive than they "should" be, and a large minority on the other side saying, "Yes they are hard to drive but look I can do it". In both cases, each side is saying something completely different.

The issue isn't can you drive an MR or a car with camber is it? I could drive a Yellowbird on wooden tires if I had to, but it doesn't mean it's correct or accurate in terms of grip levels. I could throw tons of camber on a car and drive it too. The issue is really whether MR programming in GT accurately reflects real life handling and unless someone has driven the exact same cars in the same conditions I'm not sure we'll ever know the answer.

What I do know is that a lot of people can't drive cars like the Stratos with any consistency whatsoever and that doesn't appeal to average gamers whatsoever, so if PD ever gets wind of the general discontent around this issue. you can bet they will patch it.

 

[Lawndart]

I just posted a youtube video on my channel in regards to this.

I bought a stock R8 LMS, took it to Bathurst and put some laps to see how the stock settings perform.



My GT6 video thread - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/new-gt6-youtube-channel.302553/

Comments, criticism welcomed.

I don't think anyone is saying they are in drivable, it's that they don't drive the way they should. The whole point of an MR drivetrain and the benefits of them are not modeled in GT correctly.

I'm sure you could knock off 5 seconds a lap in an FR without having to be so carful. Even in your video, you can see the inherent instability in braking and that's the leading issue (immediate snap oversteer)... You, like many of us, have learned to deal with it, but the point is we are just not accepting it as correct.

Even those of us who are quite fast in an MR car over 600pp would still opt for any other drivetrain if we had a race that's more than 3 laps...

The problem with forum conversations is they loop and people reiterate, and people stop posting. Its good that you posted a 'how to' vid but it more highlights what's wrong and Leland's further context to the conversations here, but let's not go back to square one and deviate from the investigations.

A conclusion to this who thing might be simply classing all MR race cars for wheel users only (still wrong but less obvious), but that's a minority of GT players.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm sure you could knock off 5 seconds a lap in an FR without having to be so carful. Even in your video, you can see the inherent instability in braking and that's the leading issue (immediate snap oversteer)... You, like many of us, have learned to deal with it, but the point is we are just not accepting it as correct.

I thought of this the other day and glad you mentioned it. Has anyone taken cars like the Stratos, tuned it up at 450PP and compared it to other cars in the stable at the same PP? Or 600PP in an FR GT3? Are the overall lap times of these troublesome MR's comparable to FR's in the same class? I know the Stratos wasn't top of the class in GT5 but it was competitive in race on larger tracks due to it's higher power and top speed. Is it the same in GT6?

I haven't really put the boots to the Stratos yet I've only driven it stock and I find it fun but not particularly fast.

 

[eSZee]

@Dodzzz, no noticeable steering lag if using steering sensitivity 6 or 7 with wheel, personally using 6 with G27.

Sensitivity setting is only for controllers. Has no effect on wheels.

 

[OdeFinn]

Sensitivity setting is only for controllers. Has no effect on wheels.

Well if that is your sense of feel, we don't have anyhing to discuss.

 

[eSZee]

Well if that is your sense of feel, we don't have anything to discuss.

Does it really affect wheels?

 

[Lion-Face]

eSZee - The sensitivity is for controller only.

I thought of this the other day and glad you mentioned it. Has anyone taken cars like the Stratos, tuned it up at 450PP and compared it to other cars in the stable at the same PP? Or 600PP in an FR GT3? Are the overall lap times of these troublesome MR's comparable to FR's in the same class? I know the Stratos wasn't top of the class in GT5 but it was competitive in race on larger tracks due to it's higher power and top speed. Is it the same in GT6?

I haven't really put the boots to the Stratos yet I've only driven it stock and I find it fun but not particularly fast.

I'm currently racing that R8 LMS Phoenix car with some league mates and it is as fast if not faster than the other cars. We race 615pp racing hards. I run no abs but they do. For example, the BMW GT3 and Audi both run 2:03's at Bathurst. I have run a 1:22 at brands hatch gp while the Merc, BMW and GTR have so far only managed 1:23's. So the Audi can be very competitive.

The video I posted before wasn't a, look I can do it no problem. It was aimed at showing this car just needs some time put into it. You can't go fast on the first lap, but it can go fast. Personally I see nothing wrong with having to put time into a car in GT to get the most out of it. It's a lot more rewarding than taking the de facto fastest car for a given pp, slapping a forum tune on it and winning.

But I understand now this probably wasn't the best thread to post that video in, as it's more about the R8/MR GT6 cars vs real life, which my video is more of a how to drive the R8 in GT6 and what is possible.

I'm sure you could knock off 5 seconds a lap in an FR without having to be so carful. Even in your video, you can see the inherent instability in braking and that's the leading issue (immediate snap oversteer)... You, like many of us, have learned to deal with it, but the point is we are just not accepting it as correct.

I just wanted to address this

The FR cars in the same class (GT3 in particular) go no faster, and certainly not 5 seconds a lap faster. I didn't feel the car was unstable during that video, I even commented the stock setup feels quite safe. The 'inherent instability in braking' that you see in the video is a stock setup issue that is easily rectified. It is too low of a ride height on the bumpy Bathurst circuit which is easily corrected if I wasn't running stock settings. On flatter circuits, like Silverstone, you don't find those issues with stock settings.

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

Does it really affect wheels?

i think it does. on redbull x-challenges the x-standards i found they have really lazy steering and with default sensitivity i really had to whack the steering wheel just to make the medium turns. i bumped it up to +7 and it felt right. i no longer had to over-cross my arms on hairpins. what i think i does is it narrows the lock-to-lock range. incidentally, on fancars i reset my sensitivity down to +1 or 0 as it has really a quick steering like karts.

 

[Lion-Face]

http://www.gran-turismo.com/nz/gt6/manual/#!/howtorace/drivingoption

GT6 Manual

"Controller Steering Sensitivity
Adjust the movement speed and sensitivity of the front wheels in response to steering input from the directional buttons or stick. A smaller value will result in slower movement and smoother steering control. A larger value will result in quicker and more responsive steering. Adjusting this value will allow you to find a level of sensitivity that fits your playing style."

 

[Gentoo64]

Setting sensitivity to -2 makes a DS3 stick behave a lot smoother like a wheel, it tones down oversteer correction madness quite a bit but can feel a bit sluggish because of the limited range of the stick. Because of the soft and wobbly nature of the DS3 stick -2 can really help as naturally when correcting oversteer you will pull a hard left / right and -2 will make that transition smoother. I used -2 for a few weeks and loved it at first then got annoyed with how slow it is, even little things like overtaking on a long straight can be hard to judge, so I'm back to 0.

No idea if it affects wheel or not, all you have to do is try -2 then 7 and see if you feel a difference. I would say it would sort of defeat the purpose of a wheel and 1:1 movement as that's what the degree angle is for. Also no idea who would use 7 ( I see a lot of people do ) I would picture that like using digital buttons... I'll try it tomorrow.

 

[Swagger897]

eSZee - The sensitivity is for controller only.



I'm currently racing that R8 LMS Phoenix car with some league mates and it is as fast if not faster than the other cars. We race 615pp racing hards. I run no abs but they do. For example, the BMW GT3 and Audi both run 2:03's at Bathurst. I have run a 1:22 at brands hatch gp while the Merc, BMW and GTR have so far only managed 1:23's. So the Audi can be very competitive.

The video I posted before wasn't a, look I can do it no problem. It was aimed at showing this car just needs some time put into it. You can't go fast on the first lap, but it can go fast. Personally I see nothing wrong with having to put time into a car in GT to get the most out of it. It's a lot more rewarding than taking the de facto fastest car for a given pp, slapping a forum tune on it and winning.

But I understand now this probably wasn't the best thread to post that video in, as it's more about the R8/MR GT6 cars vs real life, which my video is more of a how to drive the R8 in GT6 and what is possible.



I just wanted to address this

The FR cars in the same class (GT3 in particular) go no faster, and certainly not 5 seconds a lap faster. I didn't feel the car was unstable during that video, I even commented the stock setup feels quite safe. The 'inherent instability in braking' that you see in the video is a stock setup issue that is easily rectified. It is too low of a ride height on the bumpy Bathurst circuit which is easily corrected if I wasn't running stock settings. On flatter circuits, like Silverstone, you don't find those issues with stock settings.

In my league we found that the BMW Z4 GT3 is the same level as a GT3, and the R8 is technically a GT2, but it drives about the same as the BMW... It's a bit of a dumbed down car than what it should be...

 

[LS Chiou]

I just posted a youtube video on my channel in regards to this.

I bought a stock R8 LMS, took it to Bathurst and put some laps to see how the stock settings perform.



My GT6 video thread - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/new-gt6-youtube-channel.302553/

Comments, criticism welcomed.

Nice driving, but I think the struggles are clearly there. I myself don't like racing in such a car. Be it realistic or not

If possible, I'd like to tune it to my liking, instead of bearing with the difficulty of stock form.

BTW, is that video representing the real vision on your TV well enough? I mean, the stuttering is horrible!

 

[LS Chiou]

Let's explore some more interesting cars, shall we?


Vauxhall, VX220 Turbo '00 (or Opel, Speedster Turbo '00, should be the same)

More or less drives like a bigger Elise -- not fast in the straight but has very high cornering limit. Progressive oversteer in general, could bite if not treated right (lift off gas too abrupt), but not very bad, a fun car definitely. And it seems slightly more stable in GT6 than in GT5. Healthy f/r distribution and the stock suspension setup is spot on. I'd like to have LSD adjusted to higher initial torque to fit my liking if the power is tuned up.


Spyker, C8 Laviolette '01

This car is very much beyond my expectation. In my impression from GT5, it's a typical agile little MR, but not anymore in GT6. It's 52:48 distribution number here is suspicious, but the handling character follows this spec quite well. That is, it drives like an FR!

Turn-in is not as responsive as a proper MR, feels a bit nose heavy. Power out of a slow corner, the back end would step out wildly just like a powerful FR with light tail. It also oversteers under braking, but feels not the same as tail heavy MR/RR, on which the swing is largely caused by the inertia in the lateral direction. While on this car (and typical FR), it feels the tail is floating when the load is thrown to the front under braking, so the back end looses grip. This type of oversteer is easy to correct, just easing off the brake a bit and it'd straighten itself instantly, unlike those on MR/RR, which the lateral inertia of the tail keeps the tendency of rotation.

Even with some ballast at the back to make it 50:50, this car still drives like an FR, can be pushed hard on track. Head to head late brake fighting at the entrance of corners is its strong point, instead of the exit acceleration like other MR/RR. I also found it very sensitive to the tires, different responses between RH and SS seem larger than other cars. Thanks to the light weight, it's very fast and very capable. More of a proper tool for track racing than a joyful toy in the game. I really don't know if this is realistic. Nevertheless, the 52:48 number is still odd to me, and very different from my memory in GT5. (By comparison, the equally odd 52:48 on Saleen S7 doesn't make it act like an FR. I feel it still drives like an MR, just more stable and less oversteer. Or I mixed things up? Will check it again some other time... )


Oullim Motors, Spirra Prototype '04

Was it there in GT5? Don't remember. This is the first time I try it anyway. And it seems an interesting sleeper.

Its 44:56 (or 46:54?) looks healthy, but in stock form, its tendency of oversteer is unexpectedly high. However, its character is not like the agile Lotus, or snappy Diablo, instead, it's like the heavy-tail-Cizeta -- huge inertia in the back thus the rotation is hard to hold back -- which (I think) is very unlikely on such a light car with such a f/r distribution. Very odd, but it's what I feel.

Luckily, it responds to tunings very well. Lowered, stiffened suspension and LSD adjustments make it much better to drive -- the response of throttle-steering and stability under decelerating are very much improved. Together with boosted power, except for the first 2 corners, it can dance beautifully through the first half of Apricot Hill by throttle alone. It drifts through the S bends and can be thrown into the large U-bend in the middle with 4-wheel drift without braking and then power out. Very enjoyable with pretty high cornering limit.

BTW, I also like the lovely V8 exhaust note and well-proportioned handsome body (if somewhat 'square'). A nice car after proper tunings. I'm glad I gave it a try. 👍

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

another factor that makes cars oversteer is if rear axle is wider than fronts. cars like Czeta, Porsche, Murcielago or Spyker have their rear axles wider resembling a shape of a spider and this type of chassis design makes rear tyres always do extra work during cornering. when you enter a corner the rears always react first, before the fronts, because they stick out outward. Deltawing is the extreme example of this. this kind of rear geometry effectively makes the car as if it has extremely hard rear suspension and high anti-roll bar setting.

the easiest way to guess how any particular car would react during cornering is to imagine a car is on a big flat platform. now, raise one side up, either left or right, till the car tilts and suspension and tyres start to depress. keep raising one side of the platform eventually leads the car to slide down. which side, either front or back, would you think a Civic slide first? the front of course because the majority of its weight is at the front. how about if it's rears really sticking outward? it'll be an interesting betting competition, it might slide down evenly, or if it's rears are extemely staggered it's rear would give in to the gravity first, despite the great effort the rear tyre makes to try to hold most of the weight of the vehicle.

the weight distribution influences majority of the car's cornering attitude while there are other factors come in - the grip level of fronts and rears, suspension strengths, width of axles etc. if the down force factors come in then you have to imagine differently - you gota imagine there is this huge gigantic turn-table and it spins really fast and your car is on the very edge of it. the faster the table spins the more air resistance and centrifugal force that tries to throw the car outward. which side do you think the car starts to slide out then? the end result will be very messy though

 

[LS Chiou]

Good point. And the tilted platform analogy is spot on. 👍

The relationships among track widths, tire widths, weight distribution of f/r balance are also clearly described in the TopGear's article about DeltaWing I've mentioned on this post:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/understanding-the-deltawing.293139/page-5#post-9339354