Ultimate Driving Simulator, on MR Cars

[Super1600]

No one said that the reason they are broken or the proof they are broken is because they are un-drivable. Again, you're just making stuff up.

It is the specific things they are doing that is proof, it is meaningless if someone can drive them or not.

If a car is behaving unrealistically, it doesn't matter what anyone can or cannot do. The proof there is something wrong is the fact that they do things other than what a real car would do under the same circumstances.


Is the Integra a touring car? No, so what you see a touring car do is irrelevant.

What I said is that is just one example of a larger problem, cars getting on two wheels to often when they shouldn't. What you have seen other cars do in other circumstances (such as the video with a Subaru with broken suspension doing an endo), means nothing.

Cars in Gt6 doing endos are not trying to replicate a car with a broken suspension, so that is why your vid is useless to the conversation. I guess you are not understanding the difference.

is the Integra tuned?
does it have the stock tires?
does the integra have a racing suspension?

you are telling us stuff about some pics wothout giving any information, on that respect my video and your "proof" have the same value

 

[research]

...
And thanks for the inputs. I'll try the ride height adjustment. (Higher in front looks odd and should be bad for high speed stability, though) .

I would tend to agree. Downforce from under-car aero requires a slight rake from front to back (rear slightly higher) and usually a diffuser. I love diffusers.

About the suspension geometry changes, I roughly know that most road cars are designed to have stability in higher priority, especially when braking. Toe out on the rear when it's lifted is really dangerous. It's already somewhat floating at the moment! What to do if there's an urgent accident forcing you to change direction and slow down at the same time? Say, an animal is right at the apex of a mountain road. Or sidestepping obstacles on the lane in highway. That'd be too 'exciting' to drive such a car on public roads. I don't think those super car makers would scare their wealthy (and non-racer) customers with such a surprise.

I agree wholeheartedly! You bring up some great points, there. In an SW20, I guess the answer is to stay in the gas, haha. Good luck with that, huh?

On specific race cars, even if they are designed to have lift off oversteer with their suspension geometry, I'd be very surprised if they are really so snappy IRL. Any racer is already very busy on fighting with opponents and the track, if he/she has to fight with the drama of his/her own car, wouldn't it overloading?

In addition, on race cars or supercars, suspension travel tends to be very small. So the geometry changes, if any, should be relatively small, too. In replays, I see there's little roll or dive/squat on R8 LMS or Diablo. So I also doubt PD has included the effects into the physics.

All correct. You seem to have some decent knowledge and awareness.

A lot of cars are set up like this irl. BMW's rear axles for example are designed so that when you brake and the rear end lifts, it increases rear toe to improve braking stability. I don't know if GT actually replicates things like this though.

Toe OUT? Or in?

PD's communication is terrible. If they actually told us what was going on then there wouldn't be any need for half the topics on this forum lol.

Man. What would GTPlanet be like if PD were a touch more open...

How many times did you replace the front seat?

Only once. After that I went to work on my pedal-foot game. Stepped it WAY up. I care about this car more than my own body, and that's saying something because I am sort of a health freak...

This happens more than you think. Even one of the guys here posted what happened to his mr-s when a buddy took it for a drive. It was around a tree, up a hill, and I want to say upside down when it was all said and done.

WARNING: Do NOT let your inexperienced friends take your mid-engined runabout for a spin without proper instruction!

 

[mu22stang]

I don;t care what tires are on a car, they shouldn't be getting two wheels off the ground as much as they do in GT6. I think that may be part of what is wrong with some MR race cars.

You should care. The fact that you aren't even considering it makes it difficult to respect what seems to be an exhaustive mini study on the subject of game physics.

If, and this is a big hypothetical if, the physics were 100% perfect BUT the simulated characteristics of the tire had double the grip of the bestest, most awesomest racing tire known to mankind, the cars would absolutely, positively roll over more often, stoppie more often and in general, behave strangely compared to reality.

 

[BWX]

is the Integra tuned?
does it have the stock tires?
does the integra have a racing suspension?

you are telling us stuff about some pics wothout giving any information, on that respect my video and your "proof" have the same value

I took the pic of the endo.. So yeah I know about that. It is well documented. The other one is just an example of how cars are so easily getting on two wheels.. It's a license test or mission race obviously. I gave link to the post and you can go ask that guy. There are plenty of people bringing up that problem too. I think ti all might be part of the same problem.

 

[BLACK86]

Is there any chance of the people having issues with mr cars to post a video or replay file of a full lap around nurburg ring? it would be a great help as personally i dont have any issues with mr's even the infamous audi on comfort softs no aids no abs is stable for me, and it would be super stable if i was to drive it with aids on like it was in that driven video posted. personally i think people are not being gentle enough with the cars.

after saying that the physics could still be wrong as i have never driven a mr at its limits. would be very interesting to see how the people who have problems drive the cars

edit: on a side note where has "ultimate" driving simulator come from? i thought it was the real driving simulator?

 

[sumbrownkid]

Again the word apologist when nobody has apologized.

 

[LVracerGT]

The Audi LM race car you drive stock setup and think it is "right"??

And even if you do, just because someone "can drive" these problematic MR cars in GT6, that doesn't mean the physics model is correct.

As I and others have said, not all MR cars are so badly messed up.


I see you ignore my evidence to the contrary though, (everyone in the real world not being dead who drove one, and other people's experience with the real life cars being completely different) and your only evidence is "being able to drive them".. The fact that you brag about it like an accomplishment says something about how wrong they are though.


And yet again..

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/1-04-update-physics-changes-your-impressions.301227/page-10#post-9307422


Yeah that looks "correct"...

The only argument to that is a video of a broken car on the internet just proving how broken some aspects of the physics model is in GT6.

I don;t care what tires are on a car, they shouldn't be getting two wheels off the ground as much as they do in GT6. I think that may be part of what is wrong with some MR race cars.

The Audi R8 LMS in stock form is difficult to drive, and as I've stated in other threads before along with how I came about the information, the R8 suffered from handling issues until sometime during the 2012 racing season. Not saying that's why it handles like it does in GT, but considering they modeled and set the physics for that car back in 2008 it's possible those issues are still built into the car in GT. And before you flame me for that, think about other car models PD has shortcut on and ask yourself if it's really that far fetched.

As for the Chris Harris video, that has no validity to how the car in GT should drive. There is no way of knowing what kind of set up was on that car, and knowing how car companies operate when someone reviews their car, I'm sure Audi put a very driveable setup on that car and not something a racing driver would get on a circuit during a race or qualifying session to get the best time.

The only thing being ignored here, is your ability to accept that MR cars are not indeed "broken." Just because you post a picture of a FF car doing a stoppie at the top of the hill at Monaco, where all the weight is already being thrown forward and down from the car reacting to cresting the hill, and another FF car on two wheels through a corner, presumably from hitting the tall rumble strip (also probably due to having a very sticky tire applied), provides no valid evidence that MR cars are broken.

Edit: I should state that I recognize there is an issue of some sort when it comes to cars going on two wheels and rolling over. Where you're going wrong is taking that fact and jumping to conclusions that MR cars must be wrong because of this.

 

[NixxxoN]

Well, yeah I have driven an MR car, and at highway speeds.. not with slicks.

Even if I never drove a car in my life, and was strapped to a wheelchair like Stephen Hawking I am still qualified to make observations inferred from videos, and written words of other people's experiences who have. So your attempted argument, in the form of a question designed to show how I am unqualified to make any points about the matter, is inconsequential.

For instance:



Now you go drive the same exact type of car in GT6 with default setup or anything remotely close, and see if you experience anything close to what he did.

Heh, not the first time someone posts this video and not the first time I reply to it.

1) He drives slowly and carefully
2) He uses TC

You guys should realise that powerful MR cars are usually tail happy and spin prone, dont pretend every car in the world must have the back end glued in the tarmac

 

[Welsh-Fury]

Here I go, ready to blow all your minds.

Ya'know that some old American muscle cars feel like tour buses and may be difficult to turn? You know why? 'Course you don't, otherwise someone would of mentioned why many MR cars have bad oversteer other then just a bash on GT6's physics.

With a lot of weight in the front of the car, the front end wants to keep going strait when you want to turn, giving the car understeer. With a lot of weight in the back of the car, the front has an easier time changing direction while the rear doesn't, giving the car oversteer.

If I can induce understeer on cars such as the Yellowbird or GT40 by adding weight to the front of the car to balance the weight ratio, then that's a win for me.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I am in a third camp here, maybe all by myself. I can drive the MR's and can make it around the track with decent pace so getting them around isn't an issue for me. But the whole time I'm thinking to myself, "this doesn't feel right, there just isn't enough grip on the back end" and I'm holding on for dear life so that I don't move the wheel a single mm because I know if I do, I'll lose the back end and there will be no recovering. It's fun, it's challenging, you learn a lot of car control, but I don't think it's "right" or accurate to real life. The fact that the Yellowbird and BTR seem more driveable than the Stratos and Cizeta also seems to my amateur eyes to be an indicator that something is amiss. They have even more weight at the back than most MR's and yet don't handle much differently than they did in GT5.

 

[gogetbusy]

So to sum everything up - there's nothing wrong with MR physics, this isn't GT5 so please stop moaning about it and utilise that time for learning how to handle those cars.
I don't want GT5's F2010 scenario (for those who don't know, it's when PD "adjusted" the physics of Ferrari F1 F2010 to the point it lost any resemblance to the actual thing, and it was pretty realistic at first) repeating itself in GT6 but with MRs. MRs are PERFECT, we don't need them changed.

In my opinion one of the best handling cars in GT6 I've driven thus far is Lancia Stratos.

 

[eran0004]

Isn't that car 4WD though?

True. Not that it helped much in that situation

 

[sailworksman]

Funny, I have raced 4 MR cars, and 1 RR car on a track. I managed to keep the shiny side up on all 5, at speeds of up to 130mph. The cars were stock. 4 out of the 5 cars are available in GT6.

The MR cars in GT6 feel completely unbalanced in their stock form. So I see no simularity to the "game" cars vs their real life counterparts.

Like one poster indicated, real life MR's cannot be that bad-Exactly, they are not.

 

[gogetbusy]

But did you really push them?
Straight line speed does not interest me, what does interest me is if you have reached the limits of lateral grip levels of aforementioned cars in order to fully experience their handling characteristics?

Mind you it's much easier to push the cars in GT due to the lack of sensation of speed and movement.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

This is a joke. You think the game is broken, because a car with F1 tires, and all the wait in the front, can do an Endo?

You amuse me.

That car, in stock form (in real life) can pull it's inside rear tire up off the ground through corners. Most normal street going FF cars completely unload the rear springs upon hard braking.

If I put super tires, on the front of a Corolla, I wouldn't be confident the rear wheels would stay planted. Especially if it was tuned, in the way that the car in your picture is.

 

[gogetbusy]

This is a joke. You think the game is broken, because a car with F1 tires, and all the wait in the front, can do an Endo?

You amuse me.

That car, in stock form (in real life) can pull it's inside rear tire up off the ground through corners. Most normal street going FF cars completely unload the rear springs upon hard braking.

If I put super tires, on the front of a Corolla, I wouldn't be confident the rear wheels would stay planted. Especially if it was tuned, in the way that the car in your picture is.

The thing is, this happens with AI on comforts.

 

[Lion-Face]

I only see pictures of that at cote d azur where the ai goes over the crest at the top of the hill. It seems to me the braking point for the ai is just on the crest, so it brakes when the front tires are off the ground, and the rears are still on the track, putting the brakes on in that situation would mmake the car endo everytime. I haven't seen the cars endo like that outside of a jump on the track.

Also, MR cars are great

 

[jnoble]

Thought I might throw my 2 cents in here. I drove a mostly stock '91 MR2 NA through highschool and college. I tracked it at Roebling Road Raceway with the Carolina Chapter of the Porsche Club 3 times, great group by the way. And needless to say I drove in a spirited manner on the street. The lift off oversteer and instability of this car in GT has always been off. That car would tell you mostly everything that was going on, and would only bite you if you did something stupid, like abruptly lift mid-corner. The car is very difficult to drive in the game, in real life it was an absolute joy. Wish I would have kept it, now I drive a truck...

Oh yeah and I second what was said above, about letting your friends drive your MR car, don't do it. One and only time I let someone else drive the thing down a Interstate entrance ramp, I say what ever you do don't lift, what does he do? He lifts mid corner, we go off into grass.

 

[jeepster2982]

Funny, I have raced 4 MR cars, and 1 RR car on a track. I managed to keep the shiny side up on all 5, at speeds of up to 130mph. The cars were stock. 4 out of the 5 cars are available in GT6.

The MR cars in GT6 feel completely unbalanced in their stock form. So I see no simularity to the "game" cars vs their real life counterparts.

Like one poster indicated, real life MR's cannot be that bad-Exactly, they are not.

Nope. Your real life experience is null and void because guys like LVRacerGT claim the GAME is fine. So everyone must shut up and bow to them and their opinion. Which is founded on what exactly? You can manipulate a game? I can clear super Metroid in under 2 hours, does that make me a master of theoretical physics since that game breaks every rule of nature?

 

[sailworksman]

But did you really push them?
Straight line speed does not interest me, what does interest me is if you have reached the limits of lateral grip levels of aforementioned cars in order to fully experience their handling characteristics?

Mind you it's much easier to push the cars in GT due to the lack of sensation of speed and movement.

Well, to the point of where the co-pilot felt comfortable with my ability drive at such speeds around the track. Driving them to the brink of them letting go? Not quite. I will offer though, the Porsche 997 Twin Turbo was one car that felt a few times, it was on the edge. Probably the most fun to drive during my sessions.

If you remember the 458 Italia in GT5. It was a go to car for most. A ringer car if you will. Even stock, it was a great handling car. So is the real life version.

 

[sailworksman]

Which is founded on what exactly? You can manipulate a game?

Exactly.

 

[mu22stang]

Just drove the R8 LMS Ultra '12 (15th anniversary) for the first time. Maybe the anniversary cars handle different than the "problem" R8 LMS's, but this car is a breeze.

Racing hards and absolutely zero tuning changes. Haven't dabbled in ABS 0 since 1.04; it was stupid before. All else to 0, steering -2, T500.

If this is a difficult car for you to drive, your argument on MR physics is invalid.

 

[LS Chiou]

Wow! Glad you guys like this topic. TBH I don't have any real life experience with MR cars except go kart. Your opinions on the real things are so valuable to me. Thanks a lot.


Let me re-emphasize the two key points I'd like to highlight:

1. Are they really that difficult?
2. Are they really that different?


For #1, it seems pretty much positive, since someone already brought up the tragedy of lending MR car to an unprepared friend. However there're other opinions and experiences, too. So this might lead to the next question.

I feel the differences among MR cars are much larger then those in other categories in GT6. Even larger than those among categories. Some are more stable than an FR, but some are more unstable than an RR. And I don't think the basic configurations (weight distribution, wheel base, track width... etc.) tell the whole story. I wonder what exactly are the key factors.

On top of this problem, when you try to catch the oversteer when it happens, it isn't natural or smooth or realistic at all. It goes from snap oversteer, to correction, to snap oversteer the other direction instantly if you don't get the angle and timing exactly perfect. It isn't that difficult to correct oversteer if you have enough room on the road/ track IRL. It isn't brain surgery. This game.. and it is far from a simulation at this point, has major issues, and the dynamics of most MR cars highlight these issues for everyone to see.

I feel your pain, totally.

I have no idea what exactly is realistic, but it's extreme in the game. In some situations, counter steering is just doing nothing. With or without gas, or bake, it just insists keeping the rotation. In some others, it's just impossible to catch the second attack in the other direction, which is pretty much like a horrible high side on a motorcycle. No cure at all.

Interestingly, I found a car respond almost heavenly in this regard -- Enzo. In GT5, my impression on it was not so good, so I didn't try it until recently. Its response to correction is quick and true. Counter steering is very effective and predictable. How nice.

I wonder what makes such a difference.

Yes, completely stock. MR cars handle and feel like MR cars. Never had a problem with them, and I've never heard anyone I race with complain about them. The only complaints I hear are complaints about people who complain about MR cars not driving the way they expect them to. IMO the only problem is people not being able to adapt to the much more realistic physics and the way MR cars require to be driven.
....

Hmm... I really don't have the experience with real MR cars. How do they handle the situations I've mentioned in post#4? -- "Say, an animal is right at the apex of a mountain road. Or sidestepping obstacles on the lane in highway."

That's in real life public roads. In track races or in the game, there're all sorts of bends and many of them need braking mid corner. In a series of bends, there's no straight line to brake early. Changing direction and rear-front weight transfer are happening at the same time inevitably. What to do?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not challenging you or others who are capable of fiddling MR cars. I just don't know how all these things are put together. I learn very hard to tune these monsters and myself to deal with this problem. I'd like to know how, and why.


Last night I was fighting with BTR. (not a MR, oh well, you got the idea anyway) It's such a beast that almost has telepathy with me in an opposite way, by which it attacks me so effectively. It seems that just looking at the coming corner is enough to introduce a snap oversteer! Before turn 4 of Brands Hatch (Surtees), still in the straight (Cooper Straight), I swear the steering wheel wasn't moved at all, I lifted the throttle just a bit, and the moment right before I touched the brake, it swapped ends. What a car! That's just free running, alone. How can it survive in a crowded race full of pushing opponents?

I know I know, that Cooper 'Straight' is actually not dead straight but a very slight left hand sweeper. But I don't believe this German sport car is actually so touchy that it can't survive a sweeper.

 

[LS Chiou]

Please. When people say some cars are impossible to drive, so hard to deal with, or the likes, maybe it's a little exaggerated. Anything is possible, alright. Those 'complains' are actually a crying for help, or a deep frustration, or confusion. What people feel can't be denied. A problem is a problem.

So, in reply to those, saying only "There's no problem at all.", or "That's easy."... etc. are just not helping. Not helping at all. It's just like saying 'Can't you moron do such an easy stuff?'. It's rude and useless. Let's not bashing each other by contempt. It's not helping.

OTOH, it's nothing wrong to be a mediocrity. After all, we're just human beings having some fun with this video game, learning something along the way. I'm totally fine with the fact that I'm a slow driver. It does nothing to the enjoyment I have. We're not competing for some championships here, are we? I'm not. Are you?

 

[Mad Matt]

To comment on your questions about real life: My experience suggest that avoiding sudden obstacles is generally a delight as long as you're not already close to the limit, the road is not too slippery and you don't panic lift.

I had just such an experience on the way back from buying my MR2. I was forced to veer off the motorway onto a temporary slip road (signs hidden by a huge lorry), the join between the roads was terrible so the road dropped away and turned sharply. Based on many years of driving experience I was expecting trouble but the car just shrugged it off as if it was nothing, despite the fact that I was doing 75mph.

On another day, a year or so later, but at much slower speeds on a wet road with a little bit of oil spilt I was fighting the car to stop it swapping ends, snap over-steer one way and then the other. The road was undulating and twisting and I made the foolish mistake of lifting off too quickly and being too close to the limit.

You need to learn to listen to what the car is telling you and react accordingly as well as paying a lot of attention to the state of the road. Once you've got the hang of that the car is a lot of fun and you can even provoke over-steer moments for pleasure :-) I had a lot of fun driving in the snow and using the accelerator to make the car turn.........

All of this is in real life and if you are tempted by an MR car then I'd suggest being prudent and getting some coaching from a professional in an environment where you can afford for it to go wrong. That way you'll train yourself to understand what the car is telling you and to react in the right way.

 

[Malcolm Tucker]

Toe OUT? Or in?

Man. What would GTPlanet be like if PD were a touch more open...

Toe in to increase rear stability.

I'd have so much more respect for them, and GTPlanet would be a much more friendly place without all of these silly debates and disagreements going on

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Practicing driving MR cars in a cruise lobby online, I had some sessions driving SW20 ZEEK MR2 GTS replica - 400PS on comfort soft, just road speed pace ( 60-110 kmh ), and it was great for cruising around green hell, la sarthe, eiger, london, madrid, ascari and matterhorn. Do some spirited driving with friends, avoiding traffic, passing etc.

 

[Raitziger]

I think MR cars are now fine after the 1.03 update. Even RR like RUFGT (996 GT3) is a real joy to drive. Before the update I was also complaining.

 

[dr3w]

To comment on your questions about real life: My experience suggest that avoiding sudden obstacles is generally a delight as long as you're not already close to the limit, the road is not too slippery and you don't panic lift.

I had just such an experience on the way back from buying my MR2. I was forced to veer off the motorway onto a temporary slip road (signs hidden by a huge lorry), the join between the roads was terrible so the road dropped away and turned sharply. Based on many years of driving experience I was expecting trouble but the car just shrugged it off as if it was nothing, despite the fact that I was doing 75mph.

On another day, a year or so later, but at much slower speeds on a wet road with a little bit of oil spilt I was fighting the car to stop it swapping ends, snap over-steer one way and then the other. The road was undulating and twisting and I made the foolish mistake of lifting off too quickly and being too close to the limit.

You need to learn to listen to what the car is telling you and react accordingly as well as paying a lot of attention to the state of the road. Once you've got the hang of that the car is a lot of fun and you can even provoke over-steer moments for pleasure :-) I had a lot of fun driving in the snow and using the accelerator to make the car turn.........

All of this is in real life and if you are tempted by an MR car then I'd suggest being prudent and getting some coaching from a professional in an environment where you can afford for it to go wrong. That way you'll train yourself to understand what the car is telling you and to react in the right way.

After reading all this post about MR car, I'm thinking to buy one IRL... I'm driving a boring FF car at the moment

 

[super_gt]

This is example from real world for two MR cars.
You can see in this video which(understeering or oversteering) car is faster on the race track,and which car is more fun to drive.Test driver Tiff Needell.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/fifth-gear-18x02_2073492.htm
You can skip ahead to 12:50 min.