Unpopular Motorsport Opinions

[MIE1992]

Not sure if it’s an unpopular “opinion” so to say, but I could see this being an unpopular idea: what if Formula 1, IndyCar, and Super Formula all merged into some sort of “Formula World” championship?

I suppose I’m looking at how expensive F1 is, and how cheap IndyCar is, and then I think of how LMP1 and Daytona Prototypes respectively evolved into LMH and LMDh.

Heck, for that matter, what’s to keep Formula E from taking F1’s place in popularity? (Barring FanBoost, of course.) It seems to me that Formula E has a better focus on sustainability and seems more accessible, since it mostly uses street circuits. Not to mention it has some more potentially interesting automakers involved, like BMW and DS. Or maybe Formula E could become part of this “Formula Chimaera” I’ve been thinking up, haha!

I even had a vague idea for a list of venues. Basically, these are the must-have courses that celebrate motorsports’ heritage, but also the international nature of motorsports:
-Suzuka - Japanese GP
-Monaco - Monaco GP
-Indianapolis (Speedway) - American GP
-Nurburgring GP - German GP
-Spa-Francorchamps - Belgian GP
-Laguna Seca - Monterey GP
-Daytona (24h Layout) - Daytona GP
-Dubai Autodrome - Emerati GP
-Brands Hatch - British GP
-Monza - Italian GP
-Interlagos - German GP
-Kyalami - African GP
-Zhuhai - Chinese GP
-Philip Island - Oceania GP

 

[Liquid]

They tried having the Indy 500 as part of the World Championship For Drivers, as it was officially known until 1983. Didn't work and pedantic statisticians rue it to this very post day.

 

[HaydenFan69]

They tried having the Indy 500 as part of the World Championship For Drivers, as it was officially known until 1983. Didn't work and pedantic statisticians rue it to this very post day.

What side really wanted it? Seems the European side only had faint interest, and the American side could also care less. Lotus only seemed to be there as a favor to Ford and that was actually after the race stopped being part of the World championship.

I think in terms of the sport, both sides have differing goals. Unlike what we see with sportscar racing where everyone has a common goal. Why the DTM/SuperGT “merger, or whatever it was” failed greatly. They could not come to a common goal in anything other than being similar cars. And even then horsepower numbers where different under the same Class 1 rules.

 

[Liquid]

What side really wanted it?

Neither. I think it was nothing more than prestige.

And there is no prestige in the Indy 500 anymore and, ergo, IndyCar as a compliment to F1. More than one USA-based user on this board has lamented that all you have to do to have a shot at winning Indy is fail at F1.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Not sure if it’s an unpopular “opinion” so to say, but I could see this being an unpopular idea: what if Formula 1, IndyCar, and Super Formula all merged into some sort of “Formula World” championship?

I suppose I’m looking at how expensive F1 is, and how cheap IndyCar is, and then I think of how LMP1 and Daytona Prototypes respectively evolved into LMH and LMDh.

Heck, for that matter, what’s to keep Formula E from taking F1’s place in popularity? (Barring FanBoost, of course.) It seems to me that Formula E has a better focus on sustainability and seems more accessible, since it mostly uses street circuits. Not to mention it has some more potentially interesting automakers involved, like BMW and DS. Or maybe Formula E could become part of this “Formula Chimaera” I’ve been thinking up, haha!

I even had a vague idea for a list of venues. Basically, these are the must-have courses that celebrate motorsports’ heritage, but also the international nature of motorsports:
-Suzuka - Japanese GP
-Monaco - Monaco GP
-Indianapolis (Speedway) - American GP
-Nurburgring GP - German GP
-Spa-Francorchamps - Belgian GP
-Laguna Seca - Monterey GP
-Daytona (24h Layout) - Daytona GP
-Dubai Autodrome - Emerati GP
-Brands Hatch - British GP
-Monza - Italian GP
-Interlagos - German GP
-Kyalami - African GP
-Zhuhai - Chinese GP
-Philip Island - Oceania GP

Indycar and Super Formula use spec chassis and two engine suppliers, with overall performance being about the same I believe. They could work together but Formula 1 is a different kettle of fish completely. It is not a spec series; it's about the constructors and who can build the best car. It always has been and always will be. It won't stoop to the level of Indycar or Super Formula.

 

[Com Fox]

What side really wanted it? Seems the European side only had faint interest, and the American side could also care less. Lotus only seemed to be there as a favor to Ford and that was actually after the race stopped being part of the World championship.

I think in terms of the sport, both sides have differing goals. Unlike what we see with sportscar racing where everyone has a common goal. Why the DTM/SuperGT “merger, or whatever it was” failed greatly. They could not come to a common goal in anything other than being similar cars. And even then horsepower numbers where different under the same Class 1 rules.

Wasn't Class 1 only really a failure on DTMs part. Super GT is still continuing the Class 1 rules granted I'm not entirely the differences between the 2 that led to DTMs struggle with manufacturers before giving up and just borrowing the GT3 cheat sheet

 

[UnkaD]

Wasn't Class 1 only really a failure on DTMs part. Super GT is still continuing the Class 1 rules granted I'm not entirely the differences between the 2 that led to DTMs struggle with manufacturers before giving up and just borrowing the GT3 cheat sheet

I'm not 100% sure, but my understanding was that Super GT was vastly superior due to a gap in power output as well as a healthy tire war pushing the compound development. They were coming close to the lap times of P1 cars on Fuji from what I remember. I don't know what they did to match them in their cross-over race as I didn't get to see it.

 

[toastet]

They massively reduced the power in the merger for SGT cars and they had to run the (bad) spec tyre from Hankook. Super GT didn't have DRS and push-to-pass like the DTM cars. Due to the tyre war in Japan the SGT cars did have very different suspension setups. They generate way more mechanical grip thru the tyres while DTM had a big advantage in suspension. SGT cars run way lower since DTM had the high car height as one tweak to reduce aerodynamic grip. That wasn't just achieved with setup. For this purpose they had already build complete new suspensions to have the higher ride height without messing up the suspension geometry. The japanese cars still had problems even to manage a height with the setup were they could easily run over the Hockenheim curbs so they were scrubbing all the time and grinding over curbs with the underfloor. Also the 3 SGT cars were only test cars different to the actual SGT race car specs with more weight and different weight distribution since the SGT season was still running. So they couldn't bring over the actual competition cars. The japanese entrants still had more power (engine development allowed in SGT, fixed in DTM) but with the huge disadvantage in tyre knowledge they just couldn't use it out of turns without the needed mechanical grip. Also they did run older aero specs with more downforce than the DTM at the time which led to huge topspeed differences up to 20 km/h with DRS enabled.
And in the end they had a 3 day test prior to the event which was held in dry conditions when the the race weekend was nearly completely wet. That made it worse for SGT with the little knowledge of the dry tyres gained they couldn't adjust it to the wet tyres. In Japan they do have a lap time difference from wet to dry about 8 seconds with the highly developed tyres while the delta was 20 seconds on the spec tyres from Hankook in DTM from dry to wet.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Wasn't Class 1 only really a failure on DTMs part. Super GT is still continuing the Class 1 rules granted I'm not entirely the differences between the 2 that led to DTMs struggle with manufacturers before giving up and just borrowing the GT3 cheat sheet

DTM had essentially made the transition. Mercedes resisted it for a number of years which is one of the key reasons it took so long, and the main reason for their departure was not wanting the expense of moving away from V8's. With Aston Martin pulling out and no new manufacturers committing Audi pulled out too. And this was the crux of the problem, neither BMW or Audi planned to race in Japan, and Toyota, Nissan, and Honda didn't plan to race in Europe, so despite the two series essentially achieving parity, nobody was going to make use of it to expand.

I'm not 100% sure, but my understanding was that Super GT was vastly superior due to a gap in power output as well as a healthy tire war pushing the compound development. They were coming close to the lap times of P1 cars on Fuji from what I remember. I don't know what they did to match them in their cross-over race as I didn't get to see it.

On their spec Hankook tyre, the DTM cars were comparable to SuperGT cars on their custom tyres in the SGTxDTM race #1. Race winner (TOM'S LC500) average speed was 165.596km/h, fastest DTM car was an Audi RS5 that clocked an average speed of 165.060km/h.

In 2019 DTM was still running the NA-V8s and not the turbo engines.

2019 was the first year DTM ran 2.0 Turbos

 

[TheCracker]

IndyCar, like a lot of American sporting institutions; American Football, Basket Ball, Baseball, Ice Hockey, exists in a insular world with little interest from the outside world and little interest in existing in the outside world. With a few exceptions over the years.

Like Super Formula is to Japan, IndyCar is just a domestic series that's happy to stay that way.

 

[toastet]

Indycar and Nascar have a hard standing here, at least what I can say for Germany. They are broadcasted nowadays, which wasn't the case some years ago. Also now mainly live, which often means very good TV-times like 8 pm on a sunday. But they are only available on Pay TV and they only get broadcasted with the original commentary without the US adverts. So here are just engine sounds during the US-adbreaks. Only some special races (3 or 4 a year like the Indy500) are broadcasted with German commentary but they are again on another Pay TV channel which isn't available in all homes (it was but since nobody cared for a motorsport only pay tv channel they got axed from most cable suppliers).
But even if everyone under 50 is able to speak and listen to english in Germany all motorsports have a hard standing on people below 50. F1 yes and a bit DTM have some viewership but after these two it is very thin spectatorwise in automobile racing. Another exception is only the 24h Nürburgring. Sportwise everything in Germany is focused on football (soccer!) with a bit of winter sports. Until 21 it was F1 as well but now moved also exclusive to Pay TV these times are over. F1 had around 4 Million viewers per race (that was a lot considering 80 Million population in Germany) but now down to 400000 to 700000 on Pay TV. Quiet embarrassing for a country which is much dependent on our automotive industry. But this goes along to the circumstance parts of the politics (and regarding polls around 50% of the population, especially young people under 30) is still and ever again and again trying to limit the speed on the autobahn to 130 km/h (110 mph) and trying to give away the very unique no speedlimit rule on many Autobahns. Sad times and absolutely no space or interest for foreign motorsports outside of the very small Pay TV motorsport buble.

 

[TheCracker]

Until 21 it was F1 as well but now moved also exclusive to Pay TV these times are over. F1 had around 4 Million viewers per race (that was a lot considering 80 Million population in Germany) but now down to 400000 to 700000 on Pay TV. Quiet embarrassing for a country which is much dependent on our automotive industry.

Do you not even get free-to-air F1 highlights shows in the early evenings after the race, like we do here in the UK?

 

[toastet]

Do you not even get free-to-air F1 highlights shows in the early evenings after the race, like we do here in the UK?

Not on TV. Only on youtube. One from Sky Germany and the coverage on the official F1 channel. And you can't join F1TV anymore from Germany since the streaming rights are also at Sky Germany. So F1 streaming is also exclusive to their streaming service Sky Ticket in Germany.

 

[daan]

I don't think Michael Schumacher's move on Damon Hill at Adelaide in 1994 is quite as bad as it has been vilified to be.

Schumacher is still by far at fault but Hill was a little bit too rash. The Benetton was damaged and a lot slower having just returned to the circuit. Hill didn't have to pass there and then and would have easily gotten by after the corner had he been patient enough to not throw his car down the inside.

But in the heat of the moment, Hill went for a not-guaranteed overtake and Schumacher made sure it was never going to come off.

Hill didn't know Schumacher's car was broken. All Hill knew was that there was a slower car in front that he had to pass before it recovered some speed, and possibly drew away from him again.

 

[Liquid]

Do I personally do much about it? No. You can call me a slacktavist or whatever but the recent wave of criticism against Formula One both doesn't go far enough and rings slightly hollow given that China has been on the calendar for almost 20 years.

I get that 2004 was before society was fully digitalised and competent in internetsmanship but there seems to be too ingrained a legacy immunity for certain races that have been on the calendar for a while; the current pressure is applied to adding new races to the calendar such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia but China isn't pressured enough by F1 fans in my opinion.

And yes, you can absolutely wobble the slack tightrope and commit whatabouttery with other races like Hungary and Russia. I'm saying that more of the F1 races ought to be pressured or even boycotted at the most extreme, I'm just using China as the most egregious additional example.

 

[TheCracker]

Unfortunately China is far to large a market for Mercedes and to a lesser extent Renault plus Ferrari, McLaren and Aston Martin by proportion of output, not to mention the likes of Redbull and other main sponsors to consider stirring things up by criticising F1's involvement there.

 

[Barra333]

Well, Chinese money has already cost Piastri a seat in F1.

 

[Liquid]

Unfortunately China is far to large a market for Mercedes and to a lesser extent Renault plus Ferrari, McLaren and Aston Martin by proportion of output, not to mention the likes of Redbull and other main sponsors to consider stirring things up by criticising F1's involvement there.

Sure we all know why these races exist; money is thicker than principles.

 

[ThePotatoKing]

Verstappen's move on Hamilton in Brazil was legit and there was no need of investigation in the first place.

Verstappen missed the braking point, but Hamilton had no reason to go off-track.

 

[Liquid]

Verstappen's move on Hamilton in Brazil was legit and there was no need of investigation in the first place.

I didn't have a problem with the Silverstone incident nor the Interlagos incident. I don't know why one has to get so zealously partisan or defensive about them.

The only incident I see blame for is Monza, which was partially Hamilton and mostly Verstappen.

 

[DG_Silva]

I don't think it's the incident per se, although using your car as a battering ram and forcing the other driver to take severe avoiding action to prevent a collision isn't racing, it's more the lack of consistency in applying penalties.

 

[ThePotatoKing]

I don't think it's the incident per se, although using your car as a battering ram and forcing the other driver to take severe avoiding action to prevent a collision isn't racing, it's more the lack of consistency in applying penalties.

In regards to penalties, Rosberg pulled off a similar move in Austria back in 2016 if im right and he got a 10 second penalty for that.

 

[Barra333]

Verstappen's move on Hamilton in Brazil was legit and there was no need of investigation in the first place.

Verstappen missed the braking point, but Hamilton had no reason to go off-track.

I'm more concerned by the fact that the stewards don't have access to all of the camera footage until days after the fact. There may have been more chance of a penalty (eg 5 sec) if the on board was available during the race, but there was no way in hell it was worth a post race penalty.

 

[Samus]

Verstappen's move on Hamilton in Brazil was legit and there was no need of investigation in the first place.

Verstappen missed the braking point, but Hamilton had no reason to go off-track.

Where exactly was he supposed to go?

There seems to be a Red Bull blocking his path staying on the track. He is under no obligation to back out and brake, he was ahead going into the corner. He had every right to be there on the outside line, which VER forced him off.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Where exactly was he supposed to go?

View attachment 1095125

Into the side of him. It would've made for a spectacular incident (which is more entertaining) but anyway.

 

[Pete05]

I'll guarantee if that sealed run-off area was still grass like it used to be or a solid wall with real consequences, neither of them would have taken that path.

I'm certain Verstappen would NOT have outbraked himself like he chose to do in the first place. If he genuinely did suddenly forget where his braking marker was, Lewis would have had two distinct choices.
A. Take whatever avoiding action was available to him, or
B. Turn in to the corner as he planned to do, have Verstappen collect him & both end up as DNFs.

 

[Liquid]

I'll guarantee if that sealed run-off area was still grass like it used to be or a solid wall with real consequences, neither of them would have taken that path.

Risk compensation; the counterintuative phenomenon where feeling or being 'safer' actually makes you behave more recklessly and dangerously. Irrespective of their net benefits, these efforts to create massive car park run-offs in the name of safety allows the drivers to push their driving standards to the limit. They drive worse and more recklessly than they otherwise would like we have seen time after time after time after time after time after time afte- well, you get the idea...

Verstappen dove so aggressively that he took himself off the track at Interlagos. As you say, if there was grass (or gravel, as I think that specific corner used to be), then there is no way he would have braked that late, carried that much speed and been able to squeeze Hamilton that much.

 

[Carbonox]

It seems dubious how tobacco sponsors were, pardon the pun, smoked out of motorsports entirely, but beer - a product that actually impairs driving ability to a dangerous degree - is a-ok.

 

[Jimlaad43]

The Valencia Ricardo Tormo circuit is awful and would work so much better if it was clockwise, not anticlockwise.

 

[Samus]

It seems dubious how tobacco sponsors were, pardon the pun, smoked out of motorsports entirely, but beer - a product that actually impairs driving ability to a dangerous degree - is a-ok.

It's down to governments, not motorsports. One by one governments around the world banned tobacco advertising in sports, so it had to go.

Make no mistake, if they could still run tobacco advertising, they would. They don't care.