Update 1.03 - What exactly happened to the MR cars?

[MaDHaX]

I can't help but think that PD knew about these two tyre issue's but simply put it out there for us to find, i'll try to explain what I mean by that.

I've been driving and testing rFactor 2 and Assetto Corsa recently waiting for an update for this and now although they have worked on the MR cars handling and fixed the custom tyre width issue which I can confirm both have changed, I did notice that the pit bug is still there. MR cars still feel better on second stint tyres.

Did a small test today with the R8 LMS Ultra, Ferrari Enzo FXX and the Elise '11, all were much better in handling on second set of tyres.

It almost feels as if PD did this on purpose knowing we will find it so that they assess what the public feels about both types for each car. The tyre modelling before the pit is different after you exit with a new set. In another term, before the pit the tyres kind of feel like the tyre model in rF 2 and after pit it feels like AC.

Anyway if thats what PD's goal is i'm not mad, infact i'll bite the bait. To me these MR cars feel much better and more realistic after the pit not before.

 

[phil_75]

And some people (that have never driven one) were saying MR cars were perfect

I find it hilarious how the people who were saying "they aren't broken it's your driving" have egg on their faces now.

They're the ones who couldn't tell a "hard to master" car from a "broken" one lol

They feel more planted now, how anyone could think they actually drove like they did in real life is mind boggling.

 

[Vagabond]

Remember guys, we're Beta testing here.... GT6 is going to be a moving target for a while I think, in terms of our physics experience.

 

[z06fun]

I think some of you are confusing bad handling with a car that is balanced for oversteer. I hate to bring real life physics into the discussion but an MR car that is setup with a lot of front grip will spin easily because of the low polar moment of inertia it has. This is even more so true if it has a short wheel base like many MR cars tend to have. If you want to make a car like the stratos easier to drive simply run a less grippy tire in front. The stratos particularly has a lot of front grip in GT 6 so you might need the front tires downgraded by 2 levels to balance it, but that will change the balance to slight understeer and then you can see it actually has decent handling.

Anyone remember how everyone always complained about all the cars in GT5 having lots of understeer? Now we have both types of cars

I will say that some of MR cars with downforce act a bit strange when you take them up on to high speed banking like on the high speed ring. The wing settings/downforce should easily overcome any balance changes from throttle position in the upper gears at high speed, but yet that doesn't seem to be the case in GT6. As an example, the GT by Citroen road car has a huge amount of rear wing compared to front wing, yet it has massive oversteer if you lift at high speed on the banking. It feels fine at low speed or on non banked turns so something is not correct with the physics there.

 

[BlueShift]

As an example, the GT by Citroen road car has a huge amount of rear wing compared to front wing, yet it has massive oversteer if you lift at high speed on the banking. It feels fine at low speed or on non banked turns so something is not correct with the physics there.

Dampers

 

[Vagabond]

Dampers

What?

 

[z06fun]

Dampers

Agreed on the dampers but Dampers are only supposed to affect the rate of change at each end during a transition, not the final balance after a transition has happened. But they are much more difficult to model because they have a time element so I can cut PD some slack there If Altering the dampers fixes the issue on the Citroen there is still something not quite right with the physics there, but I will take GT6 Physics over gt5 any day. Gt6 just feels soooo much more realistic for me, I'm really liking it:tup:

 

[BlueShift]

Agreed on the dampers but Dampers are only supposed to affect the rate of change at each end during a transition, not the final balance after a transition has happened. But they are much more difficult to model because they have a time element so I can cut PD some slack there If Altering the dampers fixes the issue on the Citroen there is still something not quite right with the physics there, but I will take GT6 Physics over gt5 any day. Gt6 just feels soooo much more realistic for me, I'm really liking it:tup:

I think you can't say a car oversteer or understeer under certain conditions without watching all things that moves under the same conditions.
Say you in the middle of a drift. You surely came drifting via dampers + springs + rh + aero + LSD + driving style. And keep drifting via camber / comp/ext levels, front/rear springs etc (and driving).

A LOT of handling things can be cured on a car via dampers. Not everything, especially if springs / rh are set with stupid settings.

If you work on the damper of this car, you will have results. I remember in GT5 (which have a different engine I agree) that changing only 1 click of rear ext made a drifting car from an under-control oversteering car (was my Zonda).

Understeering/ oversteering problems are quite 40% of the time weigth translation problems, which is all controlled via dampers (and AR bars). 20% it's aero and the remaining 40% spring / rh settings. Without having a driving wheel, I say LSD doesn't change anything if you drive slowly : I think oversteer/understeer effect from it is not "from the car", it's induced by the driving.

AHMA, default 1/1/1/1/1/1 or 3/3/3/3/3/3 dampers are stupid enough so you see understeer or oversteer on some cars, compaired to the "reasonable" amounts of spring / rh cars come with.
Default dampers / ARoll bars are as stupid as the default camber and rear 0.2 toe but dampers/aroll settings have the most impact on the car's driving (after the allready "reasonable" spring / rh settings)...

If you see what I mean.

About "rates of change", I'm not sure to fully understand what you mean (in english). If I understood you there, I disagree : you are under a drifting or brick situation after rh/springs effects primary via dampers, to me. So if you manage to have smooth transition for the amount of oversteer/understeer you want via spring/rh, you'll see great results with dampers (and aroll bars). You always can control the rest via camber and lsd and use the toe joker if you're lazy or "under-tire" a setup you found on the internet

 

[stb155]

MR cars still feel better on second stint tyres.

No they don't.

They are different, and depending on how they are set up they can feel better or worse.
But fact (for me at least) is they are always slower after the 1st stop.
I never did my fastest lap in an "S" race after the stop, it's always 2nd or 3rd lap in 1st stint.
And considering that you usually become faster during a race and you also usually have less AI obstacles in 2nd half this can't be a coincidence.

Example:
McLaren F1 Stealth race car on RH in all the "S" races. (No aids at all)
With 100% stock set up it suffers from understeer before the stop, after stop there seems to be less rear grip and this reduces understeer, it feels better in fast corners as i can use power without running wide on exit. Still i'am a bit slower because less rear grips is also slower out of slow corners.

If i use my setup (downforce, brake bias, LSD) the car is good before the stop (and ~2sec faster around Apricot Hill compared to standard setup), but after the stop i have way to much oversteer and i'am a lot slower.

With both setups rear tire wear is almost double after stop.

In LeMans with the V12 LMR handling is also much worse after the stop, it is already edgy on the rear (no TC, RH in rain, and low df for speed and high speed balance) before the stop and after really tries to kill me all the time.

 

[BlueShift]

Something is not correct with Camber. I'm now 90% certain camber is considered positive by the physic engine (and negative via the graphic engine), since we have stable driftings angles but problems almost everytime with loosing traction with externs tires.

90%, even 95% I'd say there's a sign problem in the physic engine.

How can we contact PD about this ? This is the most important problem in GT6 I think.

 

[Zlork]

I would like to summarize about bug after pit-stop ?

This bug only apply when using racing tires?

All cars are fine on sports or comfort tires?

Some MR cars have bugged handling on their first set of tyres. After a pit stop, the handling of all these cars are dramatically improved and their tyre wear is unaffected ?

FR cars on the other hand are fine on the first set of tyres, but after a pit stop, they are slower and will under steer more and have increased tyre wear. ?

 

[stb155]

Something is not correct with Camber. I'm now 90% certain camber is considered positive by the physic engine (and negative via the graphic engine), since we have stable driftings angles but problems almost everytime with loosing traction with externs tires.

90%, even 95% I'd say there's a sign problem in the physic engine.

How can we contact PD about this ? This is the most important problem in GT6 I think.

Zero camber is max. grip, if you increase (negative) camber you get less grip.
I think this is because the physic model of GT6 does not take tire flex and changing camber with steering angle and suspension movement into account.
But those are the things that give you more grip in corners IRL when you increase (nagative) camber.

Maybe they had some "correction factor" for this shortcoming in GT5 that is no longer there in GT6 ?

As of now it is best to set it to 0 on all cars for max grip and only apply some camber if you want less grip (rear axle on FF car to make it turn better for example)

How can we contact PD about this ? This is the most important problem in GT6 I think.

Not really a problem IMHO if you know how you can work with it.

Pit stop bug and finish line bug on timed races is a far bigger problem i would say.

edit:
There is also a thread for camber already where everything is explained very well.

 

[BlueShift]

Zero camber is max. grip, if you increase (negative) camber you get less grip.

I'm not talking about negative camber but about positive camber, "like in gt4" if i remember correctly.
I'm quite sure the sign is inverted in the physic engine.

 

[Kmieciu4ever]

Some MR cars that are pretty easy to drive in GT6. Zonda C12S 7.3 '02 on Sport Hards drives like it was on rails, and lets you easily recover when you loose your grip, while a Cizeta or an F40 is almost impossible to save from a spin-out.

Garaiya '02 is a pleasure to drive, while the MR2 GT-S '97 is a nightmare.

 

[iLex]

I find it hilarious how the people who were saying "they aren't broken it's your driving" have egg on their faces now.

They're the ones who couldn't tell a "hard to master" car from a "broken" one lol

They feel more planted now, how anyone could think they actually drove like they did in real life is mind boggling.

Well in all honesty, neither can you. At least not when it comes to GT6.
GT6 is really great and the physics are amazing for a PS3 game, but it is still far from completely realistic. Pretty much all cars are easier to drive (at the speeds we drive them at) than in real life. The fact that you can even play the game with a DS3 without SRF is an indication for that.
There is absolutely no reason to get smug over an argument you think you chose the 'right' side on, as both sides could have been right. Besides, there is no proof that they actually fixed anything concerning the MR cars and if they fixed something it could be just to make them more drivable in GT6 but not necessarily more realistic.
We are all here to aim for the best experience in our beloved driving game. Constantly getting into arguments over these things with no proof whatsoever is just childish.

 

[phil_75]

Well in all honesty, neither can you. At least not when it comes to GT6.
GT6 is really great and the physics are amazing for a PS3 game, but it is still far from completely realistic. Pretty much all cars are easier to drive (at the speeds we drive them at) than in real life. The fact that you can even play the game with a DS3 without SRF is an indication for that.
There is absolutely no reason to get smug over an argument you think you chose the 'right' side on, as both sides could have been right. Besides, there is no proof that they actually fixed anything concerning the MR cars and if they fixed something it could be just to make them more drivable in GT6 but not necessarily more realistic.
We are all here to aim for the best experience in our beloved driving game. Constantly getting into arguments over these things with no proof whatsoever is just childish.

I can't tell either?

So how come i did then - and through a DS3?
Who are you to tell me what i can and can't feel?
I'm more accurate than you anyway lol

Here come the excuses as we knew they would..

And "childish"?

What, like when you lot were saying "you can't drive properly noob" etc etc....?

Btw i drive irl so i'll be my own judge of what's right and wrong thanks

 

[iLex]

I can't tell either?

So how come i did then - and through a DS3?
Who are you to tell me what i can and can't feel?
I'm more accurate than you anyway lol

Here come the excuses as we knew they would..

And "childish"?

What, like when you lot were saying "you can't drive properly noob" etc etc....?

Btw i drive irl so i'll be my own judge of what's right and wrong thanks

Sorry, my bad.

 

[phil_75]

Sorry, my bad.

You made me feel bad now, no hard feelings buddy

 

[mu22stang]

I find it hilarious how the people who were saying "they aren't broken it's your driving" have egg on their faces now.

Not really. No official statement has been made concerning a "fix" of the "broken" MR cars, as far as I know. And, can you really blame those defending the notion that these cars are just more difficult to drive?

"CiZeta is all wrong11!!1!! This car buggd BIG TIME! PD sux!!!!!11!" and so forth...

Even if the complaint was concise and full of [gasp] punctuation, I saw no tire selection (which is HUGELY important) or videos showing the particular scenario(s) that created this "bugged" characteristics. I'm willing to accept that a change has been made. I'm willing to accept that the oversteering nature of these cars was exaggerated.

This forum, in general, is out of control. Take that nonsense to a youtube comment section.

 

[greg666]

I was going to mention this. The car feels completely different from the first M4 seasonal, which felt kind of heavy and very tail happy.

In this second M4 Seasonal I could push it hard and the car stayed neutral most of the time.

Yes, I totally agree on this. Drove the M4 yesterday and it felt very neutral in terms of under and over steers. I could push it a lot more.

 

[Downhill Dino]

So, a lot of cars are ruined. Good job PD, good job.

 

[BWX]

I can't help but think that PD knew about these two tyre issue's but simply put it out there for us to find, i'll try to explain what I mean by that.

I've been driving and testing rFactor 2 and Assetto Corsa recently waiting for an update for this and now although they have worked on the MR cars handling and fixed the custom tyre width issue which I can confirm both have changed, I did notice that the pit bug is still there. MR cars still feel better on second stint tyres.

Did a small test today with the R8 LMS Ultra, Ferrari Enzo FXX and the Elise '11, all were much better in handling on second set of tyres.

It almost feels as if PD did this on purpose knowing we will find it so that they assess what the public feels about both types for each car. The tyre modelling before the pit is different after you exit with a new set. In another term, before the pit the tyres kind of feel like the tyre model in rF 2 and after pit it feels like AC.

Anyway if thats what PD's goal is i'm not mad, infact i'll bite the bait. To me these MR cars feel much better and more realistic after the pit not before.

I think you are giving them WAY TOO MUCH credit. It is bug.. and they can't fix it yet. That's what I think.

 

[stb155]

Propably someone at PD saw this video and finally realised that they got it wrong.



LMAO when he speaks about how nice it is to trail brake deep in to corners and that it is the nicest GT3 he has ever driven.

In GT6 he would have crashed them both 10 times in the making of the video...

Priceless.

 

[BWX]

"you can just hang the ass out like a super hero, it's very subtle (or supple).., the car *edit- handles* just beautifully"

"trail braking, that's the impressive thing, you can trail brake the thing right into the apex, in a way that you just wouldn't expect in a mid-engined racing car"

"real, real pleasant car to drive, you know?"

"not intimidating"

"Easiest one to drive compared to Porsche and McLaren"

"very pleasant indeed"

easy, easy, easy, car to drive... says Mr. Harris.

And this all in the RAIN!!!

What, no 180 on touching of brakes at 150mph? Oh.. i thought that was because I didn't know how to drive MR cars.. Spin when looking at it funny on trail braking? No that's me not knowing how to drive.. Yeah right!

 

[MaDHaX]

Propably someone at PD saw this video and finally realised that they got it wrong.



LMAO when he speaks about how nice it is to trail brake deep in to corners and that it is the nicest GT3 he has ever driven.

In GT6 he would have crashed them both 10 times in the making of the video...

Priceless.

One important fact about that video.

Traction control was on 7 out of 10, plus ABS, then he said you can just nail the pedals down after that.

 

[BWX]

One important fact about that video.

Traction control was on 7 out of 10, plus ABS, then he said you can just nail the pedals down after that.

Look what he said about trail braking.. Compare that to your results.. with any settings.

 

[MaDHaX]

Look what he said about trail braking.. Compare that to your results.. with any settings.

Yeah I know, he said you could trail brake deep into the corners apex, and that is in wet conditions. I do agree there is a problem. But still ABS and TCS does change things, however that is not the issue here. The problem is that there is difference in handling after pit stop.

The problem is we have an R8 LMS Ultra that has different handling after pit. In your opinion which feels better. Before or after pit?

 

[stb155]

But still ABS and TCS does change things,

In race cars they use electronics mainly to make it go faster and not as "driving aid" that stops it from crashing.
(Of course they help when the driver gets it wrong, and i guess it also take a lot of pressure of the driver in endurance races when he not has to get it 100% right dosed every time and can just slam on the pedal)

And the R8 in GT does not spin because he locks or spins wheels (and only that can be controlled by ABS/TC) but because it has bad balance. The front sticks and turns in but the back can't follow and comes around.
And the rear snap out under braking in a straight line is also not related to ABS 0 or 1, must have another cause that only exists in GT.

The problem is we have an R8 LMS Ultra that has different handling after pit. In your opinion which feels better. Before or after pit?

I just did the Silverstone and Apricot Hill races with it. (stock, no aids, RH)
Feeling: hard to tell, maybe a little better after stop
Time: worse after stop (0,5 Apricot/~1sec Siverstone)
Tires: no increased rear wear in Apricot Hill after stop, Silverstone over 50% left before stop in 5th lap, at finish down to ~1/3, last lap 6sec. over best, sliding all over the place.

Only surprise was the good rear wear in Apricot Hill, i guess it is because the R8 is not powerful enough to powerslide it out of the fast 4th gear bends and i drive them in a more understeering way.

 

[MaDHaX]

I just did the Silverstone and Apricot Hill races with it. (stock, no aids, RH)
Feeling: hard to tell, maybe a little better after stop
Time: worse after stop (0,5 Apricot/~1sec Siverstone)
Tires: no increased rear wear in Apricot Hill after stop, Silverstone over 50% left before stop in 5th lap, at finish down to ~1/3, last lap 6sec. over best, sliding all over the place.

before the pit the car feels very nervous and twitchy, also very difficult to understand how the car will react with different types of corners. After the pit the car is totally different and totally driveable, I beat my best by 3 seconds on brands hatch grand prix circuit and I wasnt even hot lapping. I was able to brake into corners later, take a faster smoother, more predictable line and power out of a corner earlier. And that was also the case with the Ferrari Enzo FXX along with the Elise '11. It is much more noticeable on the more powerful cars and with the Racing Soft compound. All three of these cars felt very different after pit, and in all three I was also much faster on second set of tyres with full fuel.

There deffinetely is a difference and i'm sure by now there shouldnt be a debate about it. For people that are just saying "oh, your just a n00b. Go and learn how to drive properly", my message to these kinds of attitude is, go and test it for yourself and if you cannot see/feel the difference then perhaps that should tell you the difference in driving skill and or technique. For people that can tell the difference and have done the testing all agree that there is a problem and should be fixed. There isnt a debate anymore, especially to the people that post without testing it themselves.

PD should be made aware of this and i'm sure they will fix it soon.

 

[BWX]

Yeah I know, he said you could trail brake deep into the corners apex, and that is in wet conditions. I do agree there is a problem. But still ABS and TCS does change things, however that is not the issue here. The problem is that there is difference in handling after pit stop.

The problem is we have an R8 LMS Ultra that has different handling after pit. In your opinion which feels better. Before or after pit?

Actually in all my testing, both FR and MR cars rear tires wore out 2x as fast on second set of tires. Also on second set of tires, there was a LOT LESS rear grip, and the rear tires howl all the time (second set), and the view shakes around a lot more.. all on the second set of tires.

Tried Corvette LM '09 at Silverstone and the NSX stealth in the rain at the Ring 24 hr S class. So I'll have to test it all again and see what I find. I did the NSX Ring test a few days before 1.03.. so maybe I was mistaken on which set did that.. but I think it was the second set.