Weasling penalties down shouldn't happen.

[Outspacer]

This. I got a 2 second penalty the other day for this. It seems that rather than working out of you gained an advantage for being off the track (I.E. a shortcut) it just looks at whether you maintained speed and how long you were off the track. If you didn't slow to a crawl (such as getting stuck in a gravel trap) and you stay off the track for a little while, the game seems to assume that you took a shortcut. As such, if I run wide I try to trun straight back to the closest part of the track to where I come off, even if it's slower than taking a less abrupt angle to get back on the track. Doing this seems to avoid the penalty, but also means it takes a little longer to get back on the track Overall you end up better off though.

I haven't had enough offs to check yet, but I wonder if it's looking purely at your speed when you re-enter the track. It doesn't seem to care how long you've been off track - I've had a time penalty after spending ages recovering from a gravel trap. What you say about coming back on at an abrupt angle tallies with that.

If that's the case, then it's not only unjust, it's also encouraging less safe rejoins!

 

[MBRuss]

Yeah, that's why it is sooo satisfying to hear that crunch when they come barreling down the hill on the inside before the chicanes on Dragons Tail and smash into that wall. I see them racing down inside there and brake just a little early to let them go flying past and bob's your uncle.

Funny enough, that's a similar tactic to mine - when I'm racing mirror to mirror with somebody else it's almost a certain bet that they will brake just after me, no matter when I brake. I try to brake a tiny bit early to ensure that even if they keep it on the track I'll be able to cut across and get up their inside on the corner, however by the time they realise I've braked it's pretty much always too late and they get spat off the track.

It's always a delight to see them shoot past as I hit the anchors, knowing full well they have no chance of staying on the black stuff. That said, I have no problem with these guys - they're just getting too enthusiastic. Better than being divebombed...

 

[ASH32]

I haven't had enough offs to check yet, but I wonder if it's looking purely at your speed when you re-enter the track. It doesn't seem to care how long you've been off track - I've had a time penalty after spending ages recovering from a gravel trap. What you say about coming back on at an abrupt angle tallies with that.

If that's the case, then it's not only unjust, it's also encouraging less safe rejoins!

I'm seeing a lot of this lately, the penalty system does not seem to help things here for sure but there are also people, so desperate to keep places, that are quite happy to force their way back on track hitting any cars taking the normal racing line and some even try to intentionally block you/push you off when they are going way slower than normal having just been off.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, since I'm involved in too many bumps really (even if a lot are minor), I'm still re-learning racing after not doing it for years as I've only just got a wheel for the PS4 but at least I'm not intentionally not giving a damn about the other racers, as some people seem to be.


Also on the subject of penalties not only should they all be applied after the race but they should show against the drivers name, otherwise you may end up racing and trying to pass people you would easily finish ahead of had you known about their penalty and just stayed behind them, rather than risk them knocking you off and then end losing a place to someone else, as has happened to me.

 

[MBRuss]

I haven't had enough offs to check yet, but I wonder if it's looking purely at your speed when you re-enter the track. It doesn't seem to care how long you've been off track - I've had a time penalty after spending ages recovering from a gravel trap. What you say about coming back on at an abrupt angle tallies with that.

If that's the case, then it's not only unjust, it's also encouraging less safe rejoins!

That's the issue I had - rather than running in line with other cars to rejoin the track and losing a bit of momentum from being off the track, I instead have to re join more abruptly and hope nothing is coming. I think they should just give any off-rack areas more drag to slow you down more, rather than give a penalty. Cutting a corner should be like driving through tar, to negate any benefit.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Also on the subject of penalties not only should they all be applied after the race but they should show against the drivers name, otherwise you may end up racing and trying to pass people you would easily finish ahead of had you known about their penalty and just stayed behind them, rather than risk them knocking you off and then end losing a place to someone else, as has happened to me.

I agree that when a driver has incurred a penalty that there should be an indicator that turns red within the bar with the drivers name.

As previously stated it makes other drivers directly behind this vehicle aware that they may not need to overtake this vehicle on track due to the incurred penalty to advance position.

Also it would be an indicator for other drivers to just be a bit more aware as for some reason this driver has incurred a penalty and caution to be observant of the cars actions on track may or may not be warranted, just be more aware!

I still think the biggest deterrent to try not to get penalties at the current time is eliminate the in race scrub off of penalty time unless it is an in race pit stop stop and go penalty where no other services but serving the penalty can be performed while in the pits.

Otherwise all penalties should be assessed to the post race times and positions.

 

[pedrocor]

but what about the penalty you get that isn't your fault (smashed into on while braking and punted off the track). You should be able to clear them and not hinder your race to much?

Are you suggesting that should be two types of penalties, the "fair" ones, that shouldn't be weasled and the "unfair" ones that should?

Because the penalty systems is kind of broken, you can't let the 80% of fair penalties be weared quite easily, just because of the 20% unfair ones.

I get pretty pissed off when I get a unfair penalty, no matter I can deal with it slowing down or not.

The dealbreaker to me on FIA races was an unfair 10sec penalty with 7 laps to go, so plenty of time to wear it down. (not the penalty system the worst part, by far, but the bunch of nobs on this races)

 

[Outspacer]

I'm seeing a lot of this lately, the penalty system does not seem to help things here for sure but there are also people, so desperate to keep places, that are quite happy to force their way back on track hitting any cars taking the normal racing line and some even try to intentionally block you/push you off when they are going way slower than normal having just been off.

Yep, seen too much of that. And also when I'm rejoining - gradually, as safely as possible - many just aren't capable of moving over a little, even when it wouldn't affect their pace.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, since I'm involved in too many bumps really (even if a lot are minor), I'm still re-learning racing after not doing it for years as I've only just got a wheel for the PS4 but at least I'm not intentionally not giving a damn about the other racers, as some people seem to be.

Also on the subject of penalties not only should they all be applied after the race but they should show against the drivers name, otherwise you may end up racing and trying to pass people you would easily finish ahead of had you known about their penalty and just stayed behind them, rather than risk them knocking you off and then end losing a place to someone else, as has happened to me.

Absolutely it should be displayed somewhere, it changes everything. As it is now, you can only guess that someone might be carrying a time penalty if you see the incident.

That's the issue I had - rather than running in line with other cars to rejoin the track and losing a bit of momentum from being off the track, I instead have to re join more abruptly and hope nothing is coming. I think they should just give any off-rack areas more drag to slow you down more, rather than give a penalty. Cutting a corner should be like driving through tar, to negate any benefit.

I don't know, that's highly unrealistic and could cause more collisions due to suddenly slowed cars rejoining.

I still think the biggest deterrent to try not to get penalties at the current time is eliminate the in race scrub off of penalty time unless it is an in race pit stop stop and go penalty where no other services but serving the penalty can be performed while in the pits.

Otherwise all penalties should be assessed to the post race times and positions.

For a corner cut I disagree. The goal there is to deny any lasting advantage, so there should be a way for a driver to work off a penalty on track. And if a small lift straight after the corner means no advantage is gained, then there shouldn't be a penalty at all. The penalty system simply isn't good enough for that yet though - ideally it would mean that if a driver didn't lift (or not enough) after cutting a corner, since advantage is gained all the way along the next straight, the penalty should be increasing there.

 

[qwbufp]

When I get an unfair 10s penalty because I had to side slap a crazy driver squeezing me in the grass, I’m glad I can serve it without too much of an impact

 

[pedrocor]

When I get an unfair 10s penalty because I had to side slap a crazy driver squeezing me in the grass, I’m glad I can serve it without too much of an impact

Yes, I'm sure when someone rams you intentionally and also can serve it without too much of an impact, You are glad too...

 

[JulesDennis]

When I get an unfair 10s penalty because I had to side slap a crazy driver squeezing me in the grass, I’m glad I can serve it without too much of an impact

You mean in a straigh?Going into a corner?Mid corner?How does that driver squeeze you?
Is he making an overtake?Are you making the overtake and he goes into "dirty defence" mode?
And by "side slap" you mean hit him and make him loose control?Because no matter what,if you do that you actually deserve a penalty no matter how "dirty" that guy is.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

For a corner cut I disagree. The goal there is to deny any lasting advantage, so there should be a way for a driver to work off a penalty on track. And if a small lift straight after the corner means no advantage is gained, then there shouldn't be a penalty at all. The penalty system simply isn't good enough for that yet though - ideally it would mean that if a driver didn't lift (or not enough) after cutting a corner, since advantage is gained all the way along the next straight, the penalty should be increasing there.

There is no way a penalty system that is written with computer code and each instance not reviewed by race officials can determine all circumstances involved as to whether a penalty assessment is actually justified or not.

Even with corner cutting did the driver cut the corner to avoid another vehicle that was in the process of losing control to avoid a crash or did he cut the corner to gain an advantage or was the cut just a mistake? In the above scenarios all but the first instance should result with a penalty.

Many times in real life racing in the case of corner cutting if the driver IMMEDIATELY gives back any advantage plus any positions gained as a result while not impeding any competitor on the racing line then no penalty will be assessed for the infraction.

Since in the case we have no stewards within the game to monitor that all provisions of say a corner cut repayment is done properly then it is not unreasonable to accept the fact that if you cut the corner you will get a penalty, not hard to avoid the penalty, do not corner cut.

Same as the penalty assessed for hitting the wall not involving other cars and just misjudging speed or a braking zone. The purpose of penalties is to not only be a deterrent to hitting or forcing other cars off of their racing line by contact but to also drive your vehicle staying within the tracks borders and to maintain control of your vehicle and its speed and trajectory determined by the layout of the course you are on and other traffic on the race course.

You are in full control of whether you receive a penalty for crashing into a wall or cutting a corner not involving contact or possibly avoiding contact with another car. Many times it is driving above either the vehicles limits or your personal talent limits trying to push for the fastest lap time possible. Sometimes you hear of this driving style referred to as hot lapping versus running a race pace.

So if you know that cutting a corner will get you a penalty and you push that envelope anyway and end up cutting the corner why should you not be assessed a penalty that is added on at the end of the race? You could have avoided the penalty by driving ON THE TRACK within the rules but chose to risk it on the edge.

 

[qwbufp]

You mean in a straigh?Going into a corner?Mid corner?How does that driver squeeze you?
Is he making an overtake?Are you making the overtake and he goes into "dirty defence" mode?
And by "side slap" you mean hit him and make him loose control?Because no matter what,if you do that you actually deserve a penalty no matter how "dirty" that guy is.

Yesterday I got a penalty as I was giving the guy tons of room but he still wanted to push me in the grass so I had to push my car against his as I was going to lose control. I was leading and he had rammed me in the previous race. He overshot the corner on the inside and I had to turn but got a penalty. It was ridiculous and he went on to win with his sloppy pass and I finished third. I had a chat after the race and he just said boohoo I could have been a d**k and crash you.

 

[JulesDennis]

Yesterday I got a penalty as I was giving the guy tons of room but he still wanted to push me in the grass so I had to push my car against his as I was going to lose control. I was leading and he had rammed me in the previous race. He overshot the corner on the inside and I had to turn but got a penalty. It was ridiculous and he went on to win with his sloppy pass and I finished third. I had a chat after the race and he just said boohoo I could have been a d**k and crash you.

So both of you at some point deserved a penalty.I wont defend that guy,but if I crash you -because you are a dirty driver- I actually deserve to get a penalty,dont you think?

 

[qwbufp]

So both of you at some point deserved a penalty.I wont defend that guy,but if I crash you -because you are a dirty driver- I actually deserve to get a penalty,dont you think?

I didn’t crash him. I was starting to make the corner but he overshot it so it detected it as a side hit and gave me a penalty. I’d have to upload the replay. Not the best way to describe the action.

I feel like you just want to have an argument my friend.

 

[Tecticles]

The mentality that I'm faster so it's your fault if I hit you is why Sport mode is bad in its current iteration.

 

[JulesDennis]

I didn’t crash him. I was starting to make the corner but he overshot it so it detected it as a side hit and gave me a penalty. I’d have to upload the replay. Not the best way to describe the action.

I feel like you just want to have an argument mon ami (my friend).

No mate.My only point is that if someone "side slap" as you put it another,no matter the reason,the penalty is fair.
If -on the other hand-you get a penalty because that guy pushed you off track is not fair.
In both cases,if the penalty (fair or not) is easy to erase by using a "special" way to drive around the track then whats the reason for getting that 10 sec -example- in the first place.
In other words penaltyand rating system should work better so people (like you for example) that want to have a clean race should not get matched with dirty drivers (like that guy) and forced to act aggressively in order to defend themselfs.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Yesterday I got a penalty as I was giving the guy tons of room but he still wanted to push me in the grass so I had to push my car against his as I was going to lose control. I was leading and he had rammed me in the previous race. He overshot the corner on the inside and I had to turn but got a penalty. It was ridiculous and he went on to win with his sloppy pass and I finished third. I had a chat after the race and he just said boohoo I could have been a d**k and crash you.

From what you are describing it sounds as if you were holding and maintaining an outside racing line through the corner and a competitor attempted taking the inside line but was carrying to much speed to hold his inside line and his speed caused him to drift to the outside of the corner making contact with your car maintaining the outside line.

In defense of your position you held the wheel more to the inside to combat the car on the inside from forcing you off the track and you received the penalty for being hit by the car on the inside line.

Does that sound like I have it right? If so I feel your pain and in the past I have experienced the same thing on a couple of occasions as it was the inside car that failed to maintain their racing line and not you in the outside. Also as you describe it you are totally not at fault and unjustly penalized for remaining within your racing line and the tracks borders.

I have heard that in some cases that the inside car did not even receive a penalty even though they were 100% at fault.

That is the reason that really the penalty system needs to hit all involved with a penalty and make the penalty harsh enough that no gains will ever come out of driving in a manner that invokes contact. Also the reason all penalties should be assessed in full at race end and no scrubbing off penalty time during a race.

I realize this sounds harsh and there will be cases innocent will get undeserved penalties but if you think about it that is happening now so the only way to reduce the incidents is to make people drive in a fashion that avoiding a penalty is a priority and penalties punish to a point that in no case will incurring a penalty net a positive gain on track or final finishing positions.

 

[qwbufp]

No mate.My only point is that if someone "side slap" as you put it another,no matter the reason,the penalty is fair.
If -on the other hand-you get a penalty because that guy pushed you off track is not fair.
In both cases,if the penalty (fair or not) is easy to erase by using a "special" way to drive around the track then whats the reason for getting that 10 sec -example- in the first place.
In other words penaltyand rating system should work better so people (like you for example) that want to have a clean race should not get matched with dirty drivers (like that guy) and forced to act aggressively in order to defend themselfs.

Getting S is too easy. They should find a way to make it harder but it’s probably too late. Maybe in GTS2.

Sounds right VFOURMAX1! You’re better at explaining things than me

 

[JulesDennis]

Getting S is too easy. They should find a way to make it harder but it’s probably too late. Maybe in GTS2.

You'd be rich by now if you would get 1 dollar for every time I've wrote this.

 

[Outspacer]

There is no way a penalty system that is written with computer code and each instance not reviewed by race officials can determine all circumstances involved as to whether a penalty assessment is actually justified or not.

Even with corner cutting did the driver cut the corner to avoid another vehicle that was in the process of losing control to avoid a crash or did he cut the corner to gain an advantage or was the cut just a mistake? In the above scenarios all but the first instance should result with a penalty.

Many times in real life racing in the case of corner cutting if the driver IMMEDIATELY gives back any advantage plus any positions gained as a result while not impeding any competitor on the racing line then no penalty will be assessed for the infraction.

Since in the case we have no stewards within the game to monitor that all provisions of say a corner cut repayment is done properly then it is not unreasonable to accept the fact that if you cut the corner you will get a penalty, not hard to avoid the penalty, do not corner cut.

Same as the penalty assessed for hitting the wall not involving other cars and just misjudging speed or a braking zone. The purpose of penalties is to not only be a deterrent to hitting or forcing other cars off of their racing line by contact but to also drive your vehicle staying within the tracks borders and to maintain control of your vehicle and its speed and trajectory determined by the layout of the course you are on and other traffic on the race course.

You are in full control of whether you receive a penalty for crashing into a wall or cutting a corner not involving contact or possibly avoiding contact with another car. Many times it is driving above either the vehicles limits or your personal talent limits trying to push for the fastest lap time possible. Sometimes you hear of this driving style referred to as hot lapping versus running a race pace.

So if you know that cutting a corner will get you a penalty and you push that envelope anyway and end up cutting the corner why should you not be assessed a penalty that is added on at the end of the race? You could have avoided the penalty by driving ON THE TRACK within the rules but chose to risk it on the edge.

Not to be rude, but I didn't need the lecture The key word in my post was 'ideally' - I know it's not going to be anything like that accurate in GTS's lifetime. The fact remains though that if the penalty is for (nominally) gaining an advantage, then being able to address it before the end is appropriate. OK, you might now say that the calculation that decreases time penalties sucks, and can never be perfect. True, but it could be a lot better than it is, and anyway isn't central to the question.

There are many cases where off track excursions lose time, usually that's true even relative to a slow-ish lap, so it would be possible to code. Blah blah STAY ON THE TRACK etc. No, not good enough. For example, why should it punish someone avoiding an incident that's occurred in front of them? Yet it does. It'll never be perfect, and it doesn't have to be, but it could be a much better mimic of real world racing.

Pace... if there's no tyre wear or fuel usage, then apart from traffic considerations you DO want to be running hot-lap pace all the way. Otherwise you'll fall back. Race pace applies if you have tyres and fuel to worry about, but even then you'd probably push hot-lap hard for a couple of laps at key points in a race. Otherwise you'll fall back. Even at race pace, if you don't push the limit of cutting the second corner at Interlagos you'll wear your tyres more and... you know what's coming... along the long straight... you'll fall back. That's just all part of racing.

GTS has strayed onto very dangerous ground in trying to apportion blame for incidents between cars. If - and that's a very big if - it could be 90% accurate in its judgements, then applying penalties for collisions at the end makes sense. And TBH, in that case, it might be better framed as positions lost rather than time. But right now it seems little better than 50% accurate, might as well toss a coin... actually, to be accurate, it seems to recognise about 50% of collision scenarios, and when one happens that it doesn't recognise it usually gets it wrong. I think that if it can't get the collision penalties at least mostly right, it shouldn't be giving them, or should only give an equal -SR penalty.

 

[Famine]

d**k

"Dick" isn't a censored word here*. And if it were, it would be censored in full. Partially censoring a word that would be censored in full if it's a censored word is an infractionable offence. Don't do this again.

*Nor are duck, deck or disk.

 

[MBRuss]

Well after a race I had earlier today I'm not sure the penalty system and ghosting are quite working as fairly as they could be. I had a Lamborghini punt me off in the daily GR4 race today - obvious torpedo, came flying straight up my chuff at ridiculous speed, sending me spinning. The ever helpful ghost system then ghosted me out so that he could simply drive through me and carry on his way. Irritatingly, by the end of the race he had no penalty, and despite me clawing back several positions slowly, I still finished just behind him.

In the meantime, being dropped back down the pack didn't do me any favours and I came across a moron in a Viper that again, tried to swerve to hit me as I passed him (after the went wide on a corner ahead of me), then proceeded to torpedo me at the end of the start/finish straight. Again, no attempt to stop whatsoever.

He was an easy overtake when he drove himself off a corner once again, but it prevented me from catching the guy that punted me in the first instance.

Likewise in the one make Pug RCZ race there was a guy who kept getting ahead of me by muscling through on the corners, but could never sustain his position because he kept running wide. Then as anyone approached him he'd swerve back and forth all over the road and try to smash you off.

He finished with 48 seconds of penalties, so got his comeuppance, but that doesn't help you when you've been held up ages from pursuing the front of the pack.

It seems the general behaviour and politeness is quickly diminishing from GTS!

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Yeah, that's why it is sooo satisfying to hear that crunch when they come barreling down the hill on the inside before the chicanes on Dragons Tail and smash into that wall. I see them racing down inside there and brake just a little early to let them go flying past and bob's your uncle.

I'm still racing at C or D so most those guys don't know how to clear the chicane without tapping the brakes. When someone is right on my tail, they're usually using my brake indicators as a cue so they can brake later and cut on the inside.

Exiting the chicane these guys will always slam the wall since my lack of braking made them hit the chicane too fast. That sound always makes me laugh.

 

[ASH32]

I'm still racing at C or D so most those guys don't know how to clear the chicane without tapping the brakes. When someone is right on my tail, they're usually using my brake indicators as a cue so they can brake later and cut on the inside.

Exiting the chicane these guys will always slam the wall since my lack of braking made them hit the chicane too fast. That sound always makes me laugh.

There's still many accidents there in A/S but that's because we are going too quick through there really, one slight mistake or an idiot trying to overtake and then bang, many cars into the wall.

Only the very top guys get it right time after time, that's part of the reason they win so much, there are just that much better than even your average A/B level driver.

 

[danthespam]

Even worse is I have gotten them in the chicane on Dragon Tail when I stayed completely on the track and never touched the wall. lol. I was in the tunnel and the penalty popped up. I was like wtf!!

I think there’s a tiny bit of tarmac in between the rumble strips and the wall on a couple of those corners that if you touch you get a penalty... I don’t know why they designed it like that though..

 

[Outspacer]

I think there’s a tiny bit of tarmac in between the rumble strips and the wall on a couple of those corners that if you touch you get a penalty... I don’t know why they designed it like that though..

Originally it was more open on the left of the left-right chicane before the tunnel, a bit like the left of the previous right-left chicane, then they added the wall almost up to the inside of the curb. I guess they left the track limit as it was and you can still touch it, just.

 

[Shottah072]

If you are the one getting hit and hindering the faster car from the racing line you deserve it.

For real ?

👎

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Not to be rude, but I didn't need the lecture The key word in my post was 'ideally' - I know it's not going to be anything like that accurate in GTS's lifetime. The fact remains though that if the penalty is for (nominally) gaining an advantage, then being able to address it before the end is appropriate. OK, you might now say that the calculation that decreases time penalties sucks, and can never be perfect. True, but it could be a lot better than it is, and anyway isn't central to the question.

There are many cases where off track excursions lose time, usually that's true even relative to a slow-ish lap, so it would be possible to code. Blah blah STAY ON THE TRACK etc. No, not good enough. For example, why should it punish someone avoiding an incident that's occurred in front of them? Yet it does. It'll never be perfect, and it doesn't have to be, but it could be a much better mimic of real world racing.

Pace... if there's no tyre wear or fuel usage, then apart from traffic considerations you DO want to be running hot-lap pace all the way. Otherwise you'll fall back. Race pace applies if you have tyres and fuel to worry about, but even then you'd probably push hot-lap hard for a couple of laps at key points in a race. Otherwise you'll fall back. Even at race pace, if you don't push the limit of cutting the second corner at Interlagos you'll wear your tyres more and... you know what's coming... along the long straight... you'll fall back. That's just all part of racing.

GTS has strayed onto very dangerous ground in trying to apportion blame for incidents between cars. If - and that's a very big if - it could be 90% accurate in its judgements, then applying penalties for collisions at the end makes sense. And TBH, in that case, it might be better framed as positions lost rather than time. But right now it seems little better than 50% accurate, might as well toss a coin... actually, to be accurate, it seems to recognise about 50% of collision scenarios, and when one happens that it doesn't recognise it usually gets it wrong. I think that if it can't get the collision penalties at least mostly right, it shouldn't be giving them, or should only give an equal -SR penalty.

Actually, you were not given a lecture. The whole point and even what you write here in your response still states that you think that risking cutting a corner during a race to maintain a faster race pace should come with minimal to no penalty and if you do receive a penalty you should be able to dispose of such penalty during the race when it suites your situation to do so or through slower corners. That makes the penalty risk as less of a deterrent to breaking the rules.

Running a "hot-lap pace all the way" is definitely an option that every racer has within the race and with that option making a mistake by cutting a corner by more of a margin than is allowed within the game should result in a penalty and that penalty should be assessed in full along with any other penalties received at races end.

If that extra 2/10th of a second gained is worth the risk of receiving a corner cutting penalty then by all means continue to drive that way, just do not whine when you are assessed a penalty at races end for YOUR choice in driving style.

Race pace applies whether tire wear or fuel consumption is active or not, race pace is is the pace or time you can run lap after lap mistake free and therefore penalty free. Apparently the pace that you choose to run being right on the edge at times subjects you to be the recipient of assessed penalty times. Hence the difference in a hot lap or a race pace lap.

The only way a penalty system can be an effective tool is when the penalty far exceeds any gains made by receiving the penalty. You claim that by not taking the risk you cannot stay with the lead pack.

That tells me one of two things, is that all of the lead pack risk the penalties and the rewards outweigh the penalties that are assessed.

Or that you are just not as fast as the top guys without driving at a level that has you cutting corners and receiving penalties while the lead pack is faster while remaining penalty free.

Regardless the penalty system needs to be more severe to work correctly and that is to enforce driving within the rules of the game which does include staying within the allowable borders of the course or to assess penalties at race end which will affect the final finishing positions and results for violations.

If the penalties are assessed post race you will find out whether all the front guys are getting penalties to be that fast or whether it is you trying to keep up with a front pack that is faster with more skills than yourself causing you to get the penalties alone.

In either case all the racers from first to last will be racing with the same rules and the same penalties and all penalties will be assessed at the end.

 

[Ashthebash]

In a magical world yes, but most the time a good hit can send you to the back of the pack, where you will be met with other issues, meanwhile, matey boy is up in 3rd laughing.

Why not apply the penalties accrued at the end of the lap? It could reduce the amount the 'victim' gets. The game picks up your average lap time doing qualis so base the penalty on that. Two drivers are averaging around 2:00 a lap, Driver A gets slammed off by Driver B, both receive a 10s penalty (not yet added), Driver A lapped at 2:12 having to recover while Driver B lapped at 2:02. Driver A would get no penalty added, as the lap was 12s slower than average, Driver B would get 8s penalty added, as the lap was only 2s slower than average.

At least that way, whoever comes off worse in the incident (and it's usually the guy who gets t-boned) doesn't get such a severe double punishment yet the one who caused it does have to carry a penalty

 

[Outspacer]

The whole point and even what you write here in your response still states that you think that risking cutting a corner during a race to maintain a faster race pace should come with minimal to no penalty and if you do receive a penalty you should be able to dispose of such penalty during the race when it suites your situation to do so or through slower corners. That makes the penalty risk as less of a deterrent to breaking the rules.

If you want to read it that way, fine. My position on off-track penalties is simple - if you gain time, it should make you give it back - during the race, so that the rest of the race is as it should be. The fact that it's no good at a) giving the right amount of penalty and b) making a player take that penalty so it has effect, is a separate issue. (a) won't be solved by saving penalties 'til the end of the race, and (b) could certainly be coded better.

If penalties were saved to the end, I think racing behind someone who has a penalty could only hinder me. If I knew he had a penalty looming, I'd have to weigh up whether it was worth even trying to pass him - and probably the risk averse part of me would avoid that unless I was a lot faster, or being pressured from behind. It would be a different, poorer, race.

The only case where I'm arguing for no time penalty at all is when you've already clearly lost time.

OK, my race pace is a bit slower than my hot-lap, of course I want less risk. After that post I checked my times at a Brands GP race, my quali was .3xx, laps 2 thru 4 were all .8xx, lap 5 was .9xx. But it's on the exact same lines if there's no traffic. That doesn't tell you as much as you'd like to think. It might surprise you to hear that I don't get many penalties, and most of those are from me messing up and losing time, or choosing to go off-track to avoid a collision with a spinning car, etc. - very rarely from corner cutting. I discuss this because I am interested in how SR/DR/penalty systems can and can't work. In doing that I try to consider all the cases where penalties are applied - if you want to take that as me getting them all then that's on you

I said nothing about the lead pack. The leader at least is usually quite far ahead of me in DR=A/B, SR=S races. Saying "falling back", I meant from whatever starting position. But for sure, the lead pack will be taking a line very close to a penalty on certain corners, and doing it reliably - that's one aspect of what makes them the leaders!

The systems need to work as a whole, and to be as fair as possible. Whatever it is, it's the same for everyone, that doesn't automatically make it fair. Possibly thanks to people being vocal about PD putting something in to apportion blame, we now have a poor system where an innocent driver can get a 10 sec penalty, if the guilty party games it right. Don't forget this is happening in a system, and penalties are as high as they are partly because they can be weaseled away - if they were saved 'til the end, PD might decide to make them smaller. Be careful what you wish for.