Weasling penalties down shouldn't happen.

[JulesDennis]

Why not apply the penalties accrued at the end of the lap? It could reduce the amount the 'victim' gets. The game picks up your average lap time doing qualis so base the penalty on that. Two drivers are averaging around 2:00 a lap, Driver A gets slammed off by Driver B, both receive a 10s penalty (not yet added), Driver A lapped at 2:12 having to recover while Driver B lapped at 2:02. Driver A would get no penalty added, as the lap was 12s slower than average, Driver B would get 8s penalty added, as the lap was only 2s slower than average.

At least that way, whoever comes off worse in the incident (and it's usually the guy who gets t-boned) doesn't get such a severe double punishment yet the one who caused it does have to carry a penalty

There is no easy fix or workaround.
Because the problem is that (in your example):
-A driver should not get a penalty in the first place.
-B driver gets no penalty even when its his fault (because the system cannot spot him as an "offender").
This "system" would compicate the penalties when they actually try to make it simple and as effective as possible.There would be many situations -that are not black/white- where again that system would fail to give the "right" penalty to the "offender".

 

[VFOURMAX1]

If you want to read it that way, fine. My position on off-track penalties is simple - if you gain time, it should make you give it back - during the race, so that the rest of the race is as it should be. The fact that it's no good at a) giving the right amount of penalty and b) making a player take that penalty so it has effect, is a separate issue. (a) won't be solved by saving penalties 'til the end of the race, and (b) could certainly be coded better.

If penalties were saved to the end, I think racing behind someone who has a penalty could only hinder me. If I knew he had a penalty looming, I'd have to weigh up whether it was worth even trying to pass him - and probably the risk averse part of me would avoid that unless I was a lot faster, or being pressured from behind. It would be a different, poorer, race.

The only case where I'm arguing for no time penalty at all is when you've already clearly lost time.

OK, my race pace is a bit slower than my hot-lap, of course I want less risk. After that post I checked my times at a Brands GP race, my quali was .3xx, laps 2 thru 4 were all .8xx, lap 5 was .9xx. But it's on the exact same lines if there's no traffic. That doesn't tell you as much as you'd like to think. It might surprise you to hear that I don't get many penalties, and most of those are from me messing up and losing time, or choosing to go off-track to avoid a collision with a spinning car, etc. I discuss this because I am interested in how SR/DR/penalty systems can and can't work. In doing that I try to consider all the cases where penalties are applied - if you want to take that as me getting them all then that's on you

I said nothing about the lead pack. The leader at least is usually quite far ahead of me in DR=A/B, SR=S races. Saying "falling back", I meant from whatever starting position. But for sure, the lead pack will be taking a line very close to a penalty on certain corners, and doing it reliably - that's one aspect of what makes them the leaders!

The systems need to work as a whole, and to be as fair as possible. Whatever it is, it's the same for everyone, that doesn't automatically make it fair. Possibly thanks to people being vocal about PD putting something in to apportion blame, we now have a poor system where an innocent driver can get a 10 sec penalty, if the guilty party games it right. Don't forget this is happening in a system, and penalties are as high as they are partly because they can be weaseled away - if they were saved 'til the end, PD might decide to make them smaller. Be careful what you wish for.

I understand that without having someone that reviews every penalty that at times innocents will receive unjust penalties. I have received them myself when a car cannot hold his line and hits my car, I received a penalty and sometimes the actual offender gets off totally penalty free.

The only way to fix it though is to make contact with another car harsh within the penalty system to the point that those gaming the system and using contact without penalty to advance their positions will at the end of the event be assessed a penalty that far outweighs any advantage they gained.
The way the system is now a driver can dive bomb the first corner and gain 4 positions on track and even if he is assessed a 10 second penalty by races end in a 10 lap race he has easily scrubbed that penalty off and has not in the end been punished for the dive bomb that netted a 4 position gain and made less traffic to negotiate as he advances towards other racers ahead of him making even further advance easier again due to that first corner dive bomb.

As far as shorter penalties being assessed depends on the criteria whether it is worthwhile for the reduction in time assessed for the full penalty to be applied at race end.

Just like corner cutting if the game estimates because of the corner cut you gained 3 tenths of a second on your lap time at the corner and another 3 tenths because of the extra speed entering the straight after the corner you just cut for a total lap time gained to equal 6 tenths of a second on the lap time gained then that corner cut should assess say a x 3 multiplier making your penalty for the corner cut 1.8 seconds that will be applied at race end.

Why would the penalty exceed what was gained, for one it was an illegal act and the punishment should exceed the gain from the infraction to discourage the practice.

Also that illegal move could have resulted in relieving pressure from a racer behind you or gained the extra needed to challenge a racer in front and those situations could have an effect of finishing positions or even "racing" mistakes" due to the added pressure so again the penalty needs to somehow within reason try to offset the race being affected by a violation of the racing rules.

I realize we will never have a penalty system that is perfect but right now the system has no teeth which encourages playing within the rules or the "idea" of clean contact free racing".

It needs some improvements.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

These penalties are weird... on one Circuit mission I was able to get gold by hard cutting a corner and then bleeding out the penalty by coasting through a slow apex. Clearly my speed gain was greater than my penalty loss. I just realized last night that you can bleed the time anywhere on the course which seems wrong. It seems like you should have 30 seconds to choose where to take the penalty, and not be able to just micro displace it through a bunch of slow hairpins.

I mean the carousel at Nurburgring alone seems like a perfect penalty sponge.

 

[Z Crazy]

I actually like the idea of whittling the penalty down over time, but I hate that it isn't a 1:1 time scale. A 10 second penalty can be knocked out with a total time lost on track of about 3 seconds. Get it closer to 1:1, and whittling is fine. Otherwise just tag it onto the pit-stop or end of the race time.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I actually like the idea of whittling the penalty down over time, but I hate that it isn't a 1:1 time scale. A 10 second penalty can be knocked out with a total time lost on track of about 3 seconds. Get it closer to 1:1, and whittling is fine. Otherwise just tag it onto the pit-stop or end of the race time.

and it sort of means that the penalty time is arbitrary. I mean a 10 second penalty on the Ring is nothing compared to a 10 second penalty on a course with very little coasting. Clearly the penalty isn't scaled to the course you're being penalized on so that means the severity varies.

 

[Outspacer]

I understand that without having someone that reviews every penalty that at times innocents will receive unjust penalties. I have received them myself when a car cannot hold his line and hits my car, I received a penalty and sometimes the actual offender gets off totally penalty free.

The only way to fix it though is to make contact with another car harsh within the penalty system to the point that those gaming the system and using contact without penalty to advance their positions will at the end of the event be assessed a penalty that far outweighs any advantage they gained.
The way the system is now a driver can dive bomb the first corner and gain 4 positions on track and even if he is assessed a 10 second penalty by races end in a 10 lap race he has easily scrubbed that penalty off and has not in the end been punished for the dive bomb that netted a 4 position gain and made less traffic to negotiate as he advances towards other racers ahead of him making even further advance easier again due to that first corner dive bomb.

As far as shorter penalties being assessed depends on the criteria whether it is worthwhile for the reduction in time assessed for the full penalty to be applied at race end.

Just like corner cutting if the game estimates because of the corner cut you gained 3 tenths of a second on your lap time at the corner and another 3 tenths because of the extra speed entering the straight after the corner you just cut for a total lap time gained to equal 6 tenths of a second on the lap time gained then that corner cut should assess say a x 3 multiplier making your penalty for the corner cut 1.8 seconds that will be applied at race end.

Why would the penalty exceed what was gained, for one it was an illegal act and the punishment should exceed the gain from the infraction to discourage the practice.

Also that illegal move could have resulted in relieving pressure from a racer behind you or gained the extra needed to challenge a racer in front and those situations could have an effect of finishing positions or even "racing" mistakes" due to the added pressure so again the penalty needs to somehow within reason try to offset the race being affected by a violation of the racing rules.

I realize we will never have a penalty system that is perfect but right now the system has no teeth which encourages playing within the rules or the "idea" of clean contact free racing".

It needs some improvements.

I get that corner cutting is technically "illegal", yet in real life stewarded racing you don't see every cut penalised. So I don't neccessarily agree that it should be x3 or whatever, but your reasoning is sound. Apart from holding the penalty until the end, which I still don't agree with - far better to deal with it on track. Even if it effectively lets people off sometimes, that happens IRL.

I don't neccessarily disagree with your points re collision penalties, but it does depend very much on the blame being given to the right person a LOT more reliably. They hopefully won't give it more teeth while it's still as flawed as it is now. Let's complain first about how the penalties are given, before about how they are served.

To some extent, if SR wasn't so easy to gain we'd be a lot better off, and maybe have less disagreement over those time penalties. That it doesn't keep those skilled-but-dirty players out of S level means that time penalties take too much of the strain. We'd both be happier if those players simply weren't in our races in the first place.

BTW, watching the F1 race at Interlagos I noticed there's now a sausage on the curb I was using as an example, which isn't in GTS. So not just me risking it there! Track design can help a lot, often avoiding the need for penalties to work at all.

 

[TenderLoins]

I think penalties should either be added at the end or there should be a forced slow down. You shouldn’t get to pick and choose where to serve them.

 

[AshenGraey]

I'm on the camp of having harsher penalties for the game because I think it would deter people from driving dirty and be more mindful of their surrounding. That said, my thinking is something along the line of, if you do anything (i.e divebomb, ram, pit maneuver etc) that resulted in another driver getting push off the track or crashing, it should be a drive through penalty, period. If it is not taken during the race, 30-35 seconds will be added to your time at the end with an automatic drop in SR ranking (S to A and so forth). Other offenses like rubbing, tapping, a little contact here and there, as long as it's not used to gain a position should be OK IMO. While they should be avoided, since racing is not a contact sport, they do happen and for those, applying them at the end would be fine.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I'm on the camp of having harsher penalties for the game because I think it would deter people from driving dirty and be more mindful of their surrounding. That said, my thinking is something along the line of, if you do anything (i.e divebomb, ram, pit maneuver etc) that resulted in another driver getting push off the track or crashing, it should be a drive through penalty, period. If it is not taken during the race, 30-35 seconds will be added to your time at the end with an automatic drop in SR ranking (S to A and so forth). Other offenses like rubbing, tapping, a little contact here and there, as long as it's not used to gain a position should be OK IMO. While they should be avoided, since racing is not a contact sport, they do happen and for those, applying them at the end would be fine.

The biggest problem there is the game cannot distinguish "intent" to determine when the pit penalty would really be appropriate over the add at the end application of punishment.

 

[AshenGraey]

The biggest problem there is the game cannot distinguish "intent" to determine when the pit penalty would really be appropriate over the add at the end application of punishment.

While that may be true, I think to a certain extent the distinction can be made. An example of something that happened to me last night while racing at Dragon Trail. I was in this guy's slip stream on the main straight, knowing that I had the speed to make the pass and overtake him if I time my braking correctly. I moved on the inside leaving more than enough gap between us to fit another car. Not sure if he realized really late what I was planning to do or he was just being an jerk but midway into the braking zone, he swerved to block me and we weren't even that close to the apex. I didn't have any time to react so I ended up bumping him off and watched him go straight into the wall. I made the chicane but my line was compromised and I went into the dirt, losing 3 positions in the process. Surprisingly, I got a 1.5 sec penalty when I thought it was going to be 10 since it would look like I pushed him off. I don't know if he got penalized as well but from my perspective, it seems like the system didn't quite blame me for the incident. Which tells me certain distinction can be made. It's that or.....the system is really broken

 

[jesQuick]

"Dick" isn't a censored word here*. And if it were, it would be censored in full. Partially censoring a word that would be censored in full if it's a censored word is an infractionable offence. Don't do this again.

*Nor are duck, deck or disk.

Did you make a joke here or...?

 

[SnowLeopard]

The biggest problem there is the game cannot distinguish "intent" to determine when the pit penalty would really be appropriate over the add at the end application of punishment.

I'm not sure how much intent should be factored in.
I have certainly not intended to bump anyone ever, let alone ruin anyone's race, but I probably have. Also, I never intend to hit the walls, but sometimes I do and still get slow down penalties!

 

[VFOURMAX1]

While that may be true, I think to a certain extent the distinction can be made. An example of something that happened to me last night while racing at Dragon Trail. I was in this guy's slip stream on the main straight, knowing that I had the speed to make the pass and overtake him if I time my braking correctly. I moved on the inside leaving more than enough gap between us to fit another car. Not sure if he realized really late what I was planning to do or he was just being an jerk but midway into the braking zone, he swerved to block me and we weren't even that close to the apex. I didn't have any time to react so I ended up bumping him off and watched him go straight into the wall. I made the chicane but my line was compromised and I went into the dirt, losing 3 positions in the process. Surprisingly, I got a 1.5 sec penalty when I thought it was going to be 10 since it would look like I pushed him off. I don't know if he got penalized as well but from my perspective, it seems like the system didn't quite blame me for the incident. Which tells me certain distinction can be made. It's that or.....the system is really broken

But then in that chicane the next lap you could be racing someone side by side and holding your outside line while he drifts over and hits your car because he is going to fast to hold the inside line and guess who gets the penalty? You on the outside and he gets nothing. That scenario of being the outside car and being hit by the inside car and being the only one to receive the penalty when it was the inside line at fault has happened to many on the forums.

The assigning of penalties and when it seems at times is so random in the event of contact or going off course that nobody can understand how the system works exactly. It needs much more work to be anywhere good enough to reasonably assign blame in many cases.

For that reason a penalty for contact needs to be severe enough to stop anything but accidental contact and until that mindset is prevalent among ALL the racers and there are absolutely no gains to be made within the race as far as track position then the contact, dive bombing and bulldozing will not cease.

To some winning is all that matters, how they do it does not matter so for those winning needs to be the result of penalty free, non contact racing. You race dirty and bulldoze your way through your final position WILL suffer from the assessed penalties on the final results.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I'm not sure how much intent should be factored in.
I have certainly not intended to bump anyone ever, let alone ruin anyone's race, but I probably have. Also, I never intend to hit the walls, but sometimes I do and still get slow down penalties!

But that racer that dive bombs turn one, lap one has an intent to bulldoze his way as far to the front as possible. Some racers do not care how they get to the front.

 

[SnowLeopard]

But that racer that dive bombs turn one, lap one has an intent to bulldoze his way as far to the front as possible. Some racers do not care how they get to the front.

I totally agree, my point is just that since penalties are awarded automatically, my occasional incompetence should be treated the same as another's occasional "malicious intent."

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I totally agree, my point is just that since penalties are awarded automatically, my occasional incompetence should be treated the same as another's occasional "malicious intent."

That is what I meant by the game has no way to determine intent, so the fair way is penalize all offenders the same until the penalties are working to change all drivers from making intentional contact.

 

[Ashthebash]

There is no easy fix or workaround.
Because the problem is that (in your example):
-A driver should not get a penalty in the first place.
-B driver gets no penalty even when its his fault (because the system cannot spot him as an "offender").
This "system" would compicate the penalties when they actually try to make it simple and as effective as possible.There would be many situations -that are not black/white- where again that system would fail to give the "right" penalty to the "offender".

I think you've misunderstood the post to an extent. It's a way of manipulating the current system where both cars get the same penalty when collisions happen. My system would alleviate to an extent the double punishment which is basically what you get if you'e been divebombed. Your 'penalty' would be the fact you've been nerfed off the track and lost time recovering. Whereas the perpetrator couldn't just run off into the distance and work his penalty off having gained a place (unless he made sure his lap was at least 10s slower than his average).

Without some kind of stewardship determining who's at fault and the severity of the penalty required no system will be perfect so we have to work with what we've got. Most complaints are through getting rammed off the track AND getting a time penalty. I agree in my scenario Driver A should not be getting a penalty (when your race has been wrecked it's been wrecked) but that's the system we have in use. My idea would just reduce/negate the time penalty making it a slightly better situation for Driver A.

It doesn't attribute blame, but does penalise those who lose less time, which is more often than not the divebomber

 

[AshenGraey]

But then in that chicane the next lap you could be racing someone side by side and holding your outside line while he drifts over and hits your car because he is going to fast to hold the inside line and guess who gets the penalty? You on the outside and he gets nothing. That scenario of being the outside car and being hit by the inside car and being the only one to receive the penalty when it was the inside line at fault has happenned to many on the forums.

The assigning of penalties and when it seems at times is so random in the event of contact or going off course that nobody can understand how the system works exactly. It needs much more work to be anywhere good enough to reasonably assign blame in many cases.

For that reason a penalty for contact needs to be severe enough to stop anything but accidental contact and until that mindset is prevalent among ALL the racers and there are absolutely no gains to be made within the race as far as track position then the contact, dive bombing and bulldozing will not cease.

To some winning is all that matters, how they do it does not matter so for those winning needs to be the result of penalty free, non contact racing. You race dirty and bulldoze your way through your final position WILL suffer from the assessed penalties on the final results.

I don't disagree with you and I also think that the system does need to be re-evaluated when it comes to the penalties, period. Your given scenario, I've had that happened to me more times than I can remember and that's despite leaving enough room. You might have seen my posts in other threads complaining about that.

Going back to my example, while I strongly felt like I was not at fault since he swerved to block me. However, anybody who would watch that replay would see that for all intent and purposes, I rear ended that guy sending him into the wall. My expectation was that I would get a 10 sec penalty for that and a drop in SR with the assumption that the system would not recognize who was at fault. However, that's not what happened. Which made me wonder whether or not other things come into play for those penalties. "Intent" might not be one of those things, but perhaps the actions leading to those crashes and whatnot.

 

[Sean Renon]

Weasling down penalties is broken, a good example is the current Interlagos daily race.
You can get a penalty, a 10 second one, and easily serve it within 4-5 laps just by being off the throttle around the corners in the middle section.
For me, this happens naturally (1.42.3 qualifier), seems pretty broken that my so called "penalty" doesn't slow me down at all.

 

[danthespam]

The most perfect example of this happened to me this morning. Taking part in the daily race at Tokyo with the daihatsu Copen vgt. (Rock n roll I know). Qualified second, got first on the tow down to the first corner, by the end of lap one me and second place we’re 4 seconds clear. He slipstreamed me down the main straight and then ran right around the outside of the first corner with no brakes up against the barrier. From less than a second to 4 seconds in front. I know you get a penalty for that but he weasled it down throughout the lap and did it again the next lap. No contact, no 50/50 pass, no divebomb... he just cheated. The punishment doesn’t fit the crime.

 

[JulesDennis]

It doesn't attribute blame, but does penalise those who lose less time, which is more often than not the divebomber

You make an logical jump here that who ever got the small or lesser penalty is usually the guy that is in fault.I did not address that in my previous point but thats not true.Plus its not just contact after a "dive-bomb" that should/is penalized (irl or in the game).
Like I said its not that "simple" and your idea would not work in many situations.

 

[Jonnyboi]

I'm on the fence about this because the game can give out ridiculous penaltys, Some tracks coming out of a corner, you go wide off the track, lose a position and get at good 6 second penalty.. I gained no advantage, why am I being penalised. Even cutting corners, even a liny bit that may have gained you a few tenths gets you a stupid long penalty. Puts you off being on the limit, especially as I'm on a Ds4 atm so consistency isn't the strongest point.

I think the games system isn't good enough to completely ruin peoples races just yet. the thing they need to do is to have damage on full. That would stop dive bombers, and people using their cars to ram others. Also would reward the people who can stay consistent and not smash into walls all the time, especially on Bathurst and Dragons Trail.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Even cutting corners, even a liny bit that may have gained you a few tenths gets you a stupid long penalty. Puts you off being on the limit, especially as I'm on a Ds4 atm so consistency isn't the strongest point.
.

In my opinion the major function of the penalty system is not to always give a penalty that seems justified for the offense but to rather change racers attitudes and driving styles to avoid the penalty to begin with.

If every time you cut a corner and you gain a 3 tenths advantage you receive a 2 second penalty eventually you will figure out that illegally cutting the corner is a losing proposition and adjust your driving style to stay within the tracks borders to avoid the penalty.

At that point the penalty system has done the job it was put in place for, eliminate illegal corner cutting.

Now to really make the penalty system work eliminate scrubbing off penalty time in race and assess all penalties post race to the final results. Then a penalty will carry its full weight as applied to lost finishing positions making legal and clean driving be inclusive to obtaining a high finishing result.