What does GT5 have over FM3?

[TakumiFuji01]

forza 3 car engines are just flat pics instead of 3d and GT5 has 3d engines

 

[TakumiFuji01]

has more courses and better physics in some wat

 

[AE Vector]

I'm not too interested in the advantages and disadvantages of both, and how they compare--from where I stand, GT5 has delivered on everything I wanted and some more, and some less in areas. The same goes for Forza as well. What will really decide any future plans to reconsider my sim racer preference will be how Fo(u)rza 4 and GT6 compare, and whether PD learned from what went wrong.

 

[Shrimp]

These two products are great competition for each other and will ultimately result in better FM4 and GT6.

I really cannot wait for both of these. FM4's finally going to have some real competition to work towards out-doing, and unlike GT5, GT6 will be developed entirely after the release of all Forzas, so they'll have something to use as a reference for themselves as well.

 

[Tenacious D]

What will really decide any future plans to reconsider my sim racer preference will be how Fo(u)rza 4 and GT6 compare, and whether PD learned from what went wrong.

I have to include SONY in on the blame for what went wrong with GT5. Getting yanked around to create GT PSP, and then pushing 3D onto an undoubtedly already frazzled Polyphony may well explain a lot of problems in the game we got. Hopefully, SONY will have heard a lot of complaining about the shortfalls in GT5 and fund Kaz enough to double the modeling team with a group of top drawer talent that prize the secret family we know as PD. And then, get the heck out of the way and let them do their jobs!

Turn 10 is completely up for grabs with Forza 4. They've proven through three games that they can produce some excellent content. Unfortunately, they've proven through three games that they can only produce some excellent content. They prove just as much that they're a Microsoft division. Farmed out modeling content is buggy, game code is buggy, the 360 itself is flawed, and unless MS has a secret 370 console up their sleeve, the game will have to come on a few DVDs and install to a hard drive. Plus, Live Gold is damn well NOT worth the price of admission. Wasn't at $50 a year, sure as hell isn't at $60. Will there be a quality wheel, besides the Fanatec? Who knows.

Thinking about it, I'll probably nab a special edition like I did the last two Forzas. I keep thinking one day that T10 will learn their lessons. But then I remember they're an MS company...

Oh well, 2011 should be interesting one way or the other, especially with how GT5 grows as a game. And now, back to some last hour GT5 before bed.

 

[phil_2001]

It's easy to describe the difference. Forza 3 feels more like your usual from the crowd racing game, while GT5 is deeep and demanding skill and devotion if you want to compete. GT5 is as serious game, most serious ever that is n my opinion. If you take it as an easy game relaxing you will not be forgiven as it demands concentration and effort. Forza is a big Meh in all the regards, gets boring easily! Not even graphics are on par with GT5 while lots of games on Xbox360 have a bit nicer graphics and are somewhat less choppy than on PS3(not just my observation). Also the color tone of Forza is too dark and almost muddy like, the same as old racing games on Dreamcast like Le Mans 24hr.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

It seems like many people are offering their opinion based on how they wished or imagined these games are.

If you don't have an xbox and a PS3 AND a wheel for each, how can you compare them?

Both of these games have good points. But they have different tire models and it takes more than a couple of hours at a friend's house to get used to that. And why even bother giving opinions if you have only tried them with the controller?? Every time I read someone telling me how great the physics model is...and by the way, I'm using my thumbs, I'm like WTF?

I have both sets of hardware, and many hours in club racing (real life)

The factors that make me want to play one over the other are as follows:

1) triple screen! Someone mentioned that only a small number of people play this way...but once you have the setup, it's hard to go back. I'm sure this was intended to be in GT5 and was just dropped at the end. The in-car view is a real win with this. GT5 mirrors in cockpit are too small and misplaced to play without it. Forza win.

2) tire model. The GT5 tire model is very simple for temperature and pressure effects compared to what is going on with FM3. Lots of potential discussion here, but as I said, I have enough real world experience to judge and once you push hard for a couple turns in Forza and get the tires working, then over do it and have to let them recover...you realize these guys were working with real tire data during development. Huge kudos to the Turn10 guys for this.

3) racing with friends. I'm sure GT5 will get multiplayer sorted (actually I doubt it, but it's possible) But right now the lobbies are chaos. Look through a list of every room in the country to find my friends?? Are you kidding me? (maybe they corrected this by now) Head over to FM3 cycled production hoppers and you will find some impressive, clean racers. There are some hacks, but there is some great competitive racing. Forza win (so far)

4) Challenge. Ok, as senseless as it is...I'm grinding away on B-spec to slowly earn enough credits for a decent car to climb past level 24. So GT5 wins for challenge. I never felt compelled to complete the Forza one player mode...maybe because online is where the real racing happens.

5) Hard object interaction. GT5 is bizzare. At game launch, every time you touched another car, you were glued to them and the cars slowed down. WTF? maybe they fixed that. But it still is the case that every big contact gets a big bass drum sound and a big bounce. Hit something in Forza, and the barrier and cars exhibit compressibility. much more realistic. Does the big drum still sound when damage unlocks at level 40 or whatever?


In conclusion, if you love GT5, grab a Fanatec wheel. Then later, for the cost of an xbox, you can have another epic car game to play while waiting for GT6. These two products are great competition for each other and will ultimately result in better FM4 and GT6.

Peace

Great post.

If you allow me to add something:

Karting in GT5 is great, eventhough they overdid it a bit with the brakes/steering and you have no controll over your driver (You can`t "use" the drivers body like you would do in real life). I have dozens of km`s of kart racing on my back and sometimes GT5 manages to give me the same feeling I get while racing a kart in real life. The way you have to take the corner, how the kart responds to braking, it feels like a real kart. Plus, the driving expierence resembles the one I got in real life too. As soon as the race starts, there is only my kart, the race track and the laptime board, this feeling while pushing and pushing, just to cut off 1/100th of your lap time is great. I never got the same kind of feeling in any other racing game (Maybe because I never raced with normal car in real life)

 

[hardvibes]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/10q4/gran_turismo_5_vs._forza_motorsport_3-feature

Seriously.

👍

 

[SlipZtrEm]

It's easy to describe the difference. Forza 3 feels more like your usual from the crowd racing game, while GT5 is deeep and demanding skill and devotion if you want to compete. GT5 is as serious game, most serious ever that is n my opinion. If you take it as an easy game relaxing you will not be forgiven as it demands concentration and effort. Forza is a big Meh in all the regards, gets boring easily! Not even graphics are on par with GT5 while lots of games on Xbox360 have a bit nicer graphics and are somewhat less choppy than on PS3(not just my observation). Also the color tone of Forza is too dark and almost muddy like, the same as old racing games on Dreamcast like Le Mans 24hr.

"Deep"? The physics engine of GT5, yes. The game itself... not really. It's too small! I hit 90% completion before the month mark!

Also, this is undoubtedly due to the hours I've played racing games in general, and driven in real life... but 95% of driving I do in GT5 isn't "hard", in the sense that it demands concentration and all my effort. The X1? Yep. Real cars? Not many things past the Group C cars or wildly evil ones like the Top Gear challenge Lotus Elise. I've gotten to the point where I can head through the 'Ring without much effort; I can "tune-out" and carry on full conversations with people without thinking of what I'm doing in the game, and my lap times might only suffer by a handful of seconds on that monster track. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Oddly enough, last time I played FM3 required way more effort. But, that's because I've barely played the game; and taking a Porsche 930 Turbo around the 'Ring with the alien-to-me controller was probably not a good reacquainting idea. I imagine my scenario is similar to many peoples': less effort is required for the game you play more often.

One sentiment I love in this thread though, that can't be repeated enough: both franchises are good for each other, as they force improvement, and we the customers win 👍

 

[tigermilk]

It's easy to describe the difference. Forza 3 feels more like your usual from the crowd racing game, while GT5 is deeep and demanding skill and devotion if you want to compete. GT5 is as serious game, most serious ever that is n my opinion. If you take it as an easy game relaxing you will not be forgiven as it demands concentration and effort. Forza is a big Meh in all the regards, gets boring easily! Not even graphics are on par with GT5 while lots of games on Xbox360 have a bit nicer graphics and are somewhat less choppy than on PS3(not just my observation). Also the color tone of Forza is too dark and almost muddy like, the same as old racing games on Dreamcast like Le Mans 24hr.

Last night I was doing the Seasonal Event race/NASCAR at the 'Ring. While I'm enjoying GT5, when you try to gold in that event you just realize that GT5 isn't as deep and serious as you think. I first tried with all assists off, and it took a fair amount of concentration, on par with the effort I need in FM3 with all assists of. But that wasn't getting it done. So I looked here and saw people running this event with skid recovery on. The game forces you to do this to get times good enough to gold. And what was I met with? A bloated, handles-like-a-pig V8 on a regular day that turned into a twitch racer. It was extreme arcade handling, and PD forced me into that if I want gold. My 6:50 laps were just a few seconds shy to get gold, but that was only my first attempt. You can find a youtube video of someone doing 6:40 and under laps with this setup. You know the fastest ever lap time at the 'Ring? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring_lap_times shows 6:48, and that is for a LM prototype with a huge amount of downforce. Ever try EA's NASCAR games or NASCAR Heat 2002 on the Xbox/PS2? Ever try on a road course? Can't say as I've driven one in real life, but I've seen my share of road events on the NASCAR calendar to know those games are more realistic in terms of handling and physics than GT5.

 

[Zer0]

Last night I was doing the Seasonal Event race/NASCAR at the 'Ring. While I'm enjoying GT5, when you try to gold in that event you just realize that GT5 isn't as deep and serious as you think. I first tried with all assists off, and it took a fair amount of concentration, on par with the effort I need in FM3 with all assists of. But that wasn't getting it done. So I looked here and saw people running this event with skid recovery on. The game forces you to do this to get times good enough to gold. And what was I met with? A bloated, handles-like-a-pig V8 on a regular day that turned into a twitch racer. It was extreme arcade handling, and PD forced me into that if I want gold. My 6:50 laps were just a few seconds shy to get gold, but that was only my first attempt. You can find a youtube video of someone doing 6:40 and under laps with this setup. You know the fastest ever lap time at the 'Ring? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring_lap_times shows 6:48, and that is for a LM prototype with a huge amount of downforce. Ever try EA's NASCAR games or NASCAR Heat 2002 on the Xbox/PS2? Ever try on a road course? Can't say as I've driven one in real life, but I've seen my share of road events on the NASCAR calendar to know those games are more realistic in terms of handling and physics than GT5.

Then GT5 is not realistic to you because you need to turn on a heavy driving aid in order to achieve the gold time? do you think is not possible without skid recovery and better skills?

Skid recovery is the equivalent of the old "normal physics"(arcade), what do you expect turning it on if you are downgrading the driving realism in purpose?

It's like playing Forza 3 with autobrake and saying Ridge Racer is more realistic.

 

[Goudvis]

Last night I was doing the Seasonal Event race/NASCAR at the 'Ring. While I'm enjoying GT5, when you try to gold in that event you just realize that GT5 isn't as deep and serious as you think. I first tried with all assists off, and it took a fair amount of concentration, on par with the effort I need in FM3 with all assists of. But that wasn't getting it done. So I looked here and saw people running this event with skid recovery on. The game forces you to do this to get times good enough to gold. And what was I met with? A bloated, handles-like-a-pig V8 on a regular day that turned into a twitch racer. It was extreme arcade handling, and PD forced me into that if I want gold. My 6:50 laps were just a few seconds shy to get gold, but that was only my first attempt. You can find a youtube video of someone doing 6:40 and under laps with this setup. You know the fastest ever lap time at the 'Ring? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring_lap_times shows 6:48, and that is for a LM prototype with a huge amount of downforce. Ever try EA's NASCAR games or NASCAR Heat 2002 on the Xbox/PS2? Ever try on a road course? Can't say as I've driven one in real life, but I've seen my share of road events on the NASCAR calendar to know those games are more realistic in terms of handling and physics than GT5.

PD doen't force you to do anything. I'm not very good, I don't get gold and still I don't feel forced to use assists.


I haven't played Forza. I decided to go for GT5 because I like classic cars, I like how each of these car feels completely different from the brand new cars.
And I don't care for tuning, painting etc.

I guess it depends on which features you think are important.

 

[African Kat]

i bought an Xbox and FM3 while i was waiting for GT5s release. I played all GT's and FM's.
both have strong points but for me as a serious racer GT5 has the realistic physics i'm after. FM3's physics is not as complex as GT5 and real life. Also GTs replays and general appearance is more akin to real life whereas FM3 looks slightly cartoony.
FM's car sounds have always been miles ahead of the GT series and if GT adopted FM's sounds, it would be awesome....or if FM copied GT's physics and appearance, FM could be top dog in the industry.

 

[Spagetti69]

I agree GTs general physics on hard tires are the best.
The collision physics are not good however.
Any AI you hit feels heavier than you even if there a lighter car.
Not sure about online though, I haven't hit anyone yet.

 

[jagenigma]

Not yet it hasn't:

FM3: 3.73m

GT5: 2.90m

But I expect GT5 will probably overtake it in a month or two.

Not that sales matter. Wii Fit sold 15m and it's still crap.

I think overall numbers are being looked at in that case.

 

[nickg07]

Last night I was doing the Seasonal Event race/NASCAR at the 'Ring. While I'm enjoying GT5, when you try to gold in that event you just realize that GT5 isn't as deep and serious as you think. I first tried with all assists off, and it took a fair amount of concentration, on par with the effort I need in FM3 with all assists of.

I disagree, it is possible without SFR, my issue was however that i couldnt complete 2 laps at full pelt and not crash really badly. Hence i turned it on to get me through the event and earn the money.

That you needed the aid to do it, shows there is some realism, as im not a NASCAR driver in real life, i cant concentrate and drive like one can for more than 6 minutes, let alone many hours as per real life.

 

[victorb81]

It's tire wear. Has nothing to do with traction




Tire physics - calculation of traction on every wheel.

You can introduce parameter at which g car will go off or start to spin without any tire physics at all

late to the party, I know

but you do realize that 'traction' is nothing more than a calculation based on the coefficient of friction between two moving surfaces or materials, right? according to your statement, you don't.

the g force that a car will spin out at is a direct reflection of this calculation, and therefore cannot be calculated without knowing the coefficient of friction between different tire compounds and different road surfaces.

tl;dr version:
you're wrong about that.

 

[zr1chris]

Definently the graphics. Track and car detailing. Most of the cars are more realistic. Better tracks. More in-depth tuning. Weather, Track Generator, 2008 Epson NSX..... All it needs is V8 Supercars

More in depth tuning? Thats nonsense. They are pretty much exactly the same. Forza may even have more in depth tuning. Not that it matters since the physics arent nearly as good as GT5 anyway but im just saying.

 

[CoolColJ]

"Deep"? The physics engine of GT5, yes. The game itself... not really. It's too small! I hit 90% completion before the month mark!

Also, this is undoubtedly due to the hours I've played racing games in general, and driven in real life... but 95% of driving I do in GT5 isn't "hard", in the sense that it demands concentration and all my effort. The X1? Yep. Real cars? Not many things past the Group C cars or wildly evil ones like the Top Gear challenge Lotus Elise. I've gotten to the point where I can head through the 'Ring without much effort; I can "tune-out" and carry on full conversations with people without thinking of what I'm doing in the game, and my lap times might only suffer by a handful of seconds on that monster track. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Oddly enough, last time I played FM3 required way more effort. But, that's because I've barely played the game; and taking a Porsche 930 Turbo around the 'Ring with the alien-to-me controller was probably not a good reacquainting idea. I imagine my scenario is similar to many peoples': less effort is required for the game you play more often.

One sentiment I love in this thread though, that can't be repeated enough: both franchises are good for each other, as they force improvement, and we the customers win 👍

Do you use ABS? Turning it off makes the whole driving experience a lot different. ABS in GT5 is like SRF, it helps you more than just preventing lockup. It prevents car rotation due to weight transfer under braking.
Turn it off and you can no longer jam on the brakes whenever you like, the car will try to flip, even with properly setup brake bias.
Makes things a whole lot harder on the Ring that's for sure.

I guess PD made ABS like this to help out the Pad users and casual gamers, but it really dumbs things down.

Braking down from high speed is pretty scary without ABS, and you need to do it in a straight line, something there isn't much of on the Ring

 

[theignoramus]

Last night I was doing the Seasonal Event race/NASCAR at the 'Ring. While I'm enjoying GT5, when you try to gold in that event you just realize that GT5 isn't as deep and serious as you think. I first tried with all assists off, and it took a fair amount of concentration, on par with the effort I need in FM3 with all assists of. But that wasn't getting it done. So I looked here and saw people running this event with skid recovery on. The game forces you to do this to get times good enough to gold. And what was I met with? A bloated, handles-like-a-pig V8 on a regular day that turned into a twitch racer. It was extreme arcade handling, and PD forced me into that if I want gold. My 6:50 laps were just a few seconds shy to get gold, but that was only my first attempt. You can find a youtube video of someone doing 6:40 and under laps with this setup. You know the fastest ever lap time at the 'Ring? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring_lap_times shows 6:48, and that is for a LM prototype with a huge amount of downforce. Ever try EA's NASCAR games or NASCAR Heat 2002 on the Xbox/PS2? Ever try on a road course? Can't say as I've driven one in real life, but I've seen my share of road events on the NASCAR calendar to know those games are more realistic in terms of handling and physics than GT5.

I noticed that you didnt respond when challenged about your claim that you can drive in the grass more easily (or with less of a penalty) in GT5 than in Fm3. Care to elaborate on that?

 

[CoolColJ]

Last night I was doing the Seasonal Event race/NASCAR at the 'Ring. While I'm enjoying GT5, when you try to gold in that event you just realize that GT5 isn't as deep and serious as you think. I first tried with all assists off, and it took a fair amount of concentration, on par with the effort I need in FM3 with all assists of. But that wasn't getting it done. So I looked here and saw people running this event with skid recovery on. The game forces you to do this to get times good enough to gold. And what was I met with? A bloated, handles-like-a-pig V8 on a regular day that turned into a twitch racer. It was extreme arcade handling, and PD forced me into that if I want gold. My 6:50 laps were just a few seconds shy to get gold, but that was only my first attempt. You can find a youtube video of someone doing 6:40 and under laps with this setup. You know the fastest ever lap time at the 'Ring? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring_lap_times shows 6:48, and that is for a LM prototype with a huge amount of downforce. Ever try EA's NASCAR games or NASCAR Heat 2002 on the Xbox/PS2? Ever try on a road course? Can't say as I've driven one in real life, but I've seen my share of road events on the NASCAR calendar to know those games are more realistic in terms of handling and physics than GT5.

Nascar in GT5 is dumbed down a lot compared to in the Demos, maybe it's the extra downforce or something, but before the slightest touch of the throttle would smoke up the rears and send you spinning, and the cars felt really heavy and hard to turn. Not so in GT5....

You can set up to 70 in downforce on the Nascars, a lot of race modded cars in GT5 can't even get this high.....
A 787B can go up to 85, and it looks like should, but a Nascar? Doesn't look like it should

 

[SavageEvil]

Last night I was doing the Seasonal Event race/NASCAR at the 'Ring. While I'm enjoying GT5, when you try to gold in that event you just realize that GT5 isn't as deep and serious as you think. I first tried with all assists off, and it took a fair amount of concentration, on par with the effort I need in FM3 with all assists of. But that wasn't getting it done. So I looked here and saw people running this event with skid recovery on. The game forces you to do this to get times good enough to gold. And what was I met with? A bloated, handles-like-a-pig V8 on a regular day that turned into a twitch racer. It was extreme arcade handling, and PD forced me into that if I want gold. My 6:50 laps were just a few seconds shy to get gold, but that was only my first attempt. You can find a youtube video of someone doing 6:40 and under laps with this setup. You know the fastest ever lap time at the 'Ring? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring_lap_times shows 6:48, and that is for a LM prototype with a huge amount of downforce. Ever try EA's NASCAR games or NASCAR Heat 2002 on the Xbox/PS2? Ever try on a road course? Can't say as I've driven one in real life, but I've seen my share of road events on the NASCAR calendar to know those games are more realistic in terms of handling and physics than GT5.

I beat that just last night, with only ABS on and I lowered the damper rates to a more manageable 5, set the braking to 5 front and 3 in the rear. I was in 5th by the second lap that's only because I messed up in a few areas as these heavy cars do not slow down very quickly, they do however seem to have limitless acceleration. Funny thing is my first lap was faster than my second lap, 6:40 first and 6:49 second. Key is being smooth with braking, cornering and throttle inputs. If you catch the #48 before the finish line on lap 1, you are well on your way to a flawless victory.

This game punishes you without mercy for accelerating while turning on bumpy sections, heck even while decelerating if a wheel hits the grass you will spin, had to restart a few times after those adventures. Face it you need to concentrate more, if you need too many driving aids then that means you aren't as good as you think. I'm not that good, but I can drive pretty ok and I bested that GTR event on SSR5 easily. The Mazda event is hard to beat so far, got silver and I drive with only ABS in everything, lol.

GT5 has deeper and more realistic tire physics implementation over FM3, also GT5 doesn't dumb down the physics online as FM3 does. Sometimes GT5 is a bit too realistic, like for instance try driving the Toyota Minolta on la Sarthe, this monster car lights up the tires more often than not. Strange thing is it does it at different points in different gears. In the rain this car can be a nightmare to keep under control while accelerating out of corners. I hate RAIN in GT5! Nothing in any game so far can compare to witnessing a night to day transition as you race, the scenery looks incredible.

 

[tigermilk]

I noticed that you didnt respond when challenged about your claim that you can drive in the grass more easily (or with less of a penalty) in GT5 than in Fm3. Care to elaborate on that?

Sorry - too busy playing GT5!

First, regarding the 'Ring NASCAR event - I did get bronze (missed gold by 4 seconds) with skid recovery off and no traction control. It turns out the massive grip (unrealistic IMO) comes from maximizing downforce on the car. Nonetheless, I did a lap in under 6:50 in a freaking Nextel Cup car with NO ASSISTS. Realistic? Certainly not.

In FM3, the following situations really upset the balance of the car:

- grass/dirt - get a wheel off and you must let off the throttle on the higher power cars. You car will spin due to grip on one side and spin on the other. In GT5 you most certainly can get a wheel off the track and maintain control with all assists off. In GT5 you can cut corners excessively without penalty, either in terms of scrubbed off speed or instability. Now in FM3 it is unrealistic if you try to shortcut the track by going in grass/dirt. The speed is zapped. However, it does penalize you and force you to stay on course.

- curbing - the curbs in FM3 are modeled much better than GT5. In FM3 I have to know the tracks intimately to know which corners I can use the curbs and which I can't. Likewise, in FM3 I can use the curbing to unbalance the car enough, put the throttle down, oversteer, and power through. You feel the feedback from the curbs on the controller. In GT5, in the 20+ hours I've logged the curbs seem like they are nearly flush with the ground. At Monza they seem merely painted on. Also at Monza are raised bits to prevent cutting chicanes. If I hit something like those in FM3 the car behaves as expected - cross your fingers and hope you make it out OK. In GT5, they are like decals on the road.

- heavy throttle on exit, even in higher gears - for cars with a lot of torque/horsepower, you have to feather the throttle in FM3 to avoid going unstable out of the corners. This is the case even in 2nd gear.

A track like the 'Ring really shows the difference between FM3 and GT5. Sure the GT5 rendition may be more true to life (e.g., narrower), but the driving is harder, in my opinion, in FM3 due to the above reasons. It takes more of my concentration to nail a perfect lap in FM3 and set up when I pass, because I know if I hit the grass, sand, or curbs, I may place myself seconds back. FM3 forces me to drive and race smarter.

That said, I am certainly enjoying the Seasonal Events (the races). Really all they are is a straight copy and paste of Project Gotham Racing. If you've played PGR you'll instantly make comparisons to the overtake challenges. I loved those in PGR, and I'm enjoying those in GT5.

 

[theignoramus]

Sorry - too busy playing GT5!

First, regarding the 'Ring NASCAR event - I did get bronze (missed gold by 4 seconds) with skid recovery off and no traction control. It turns out the massive grip (unrealistic IMO) comes from maximizing downforce on the car. Nonetheless, I did a lap in under 6:50 in a freaking Nextel Cup car with NO ASSISTS. Realistic? Certainly not.

In FM3, the following situations really upset the balance of the car:

- grass/dirt - get a wheel off and you must let off the throttle on the higher power cars. You car will spin due to grip on one side and spin on the other. In GT5 you most certainly can get a wheel off the track and maintain control with all assists off. In GT5 you can cut corners excessively without penalty, either in terms of scrubbed off speed or instability. Now in FM3 it is unrealistic if you try to shortcut the track by going in grass/dirt. The speed is zapped. However, it does penalize you and force you to stay on course.

- curbing - the curbs in FM3 are modeled much better than GT5. In FM3 I have to know the tracks intimately to know which corners I can use the curbs and which I can't. Likewise, in FM3 I can use the curbing to unbalance the car enough, put the throttle down, oversteer, and power through. You feel the feedback from the curbs on the controller. In GT5, in the 20+ hours I've logged the curbs seem like they are nearly flush with the ground. At Monza they seem merely painted on. Also at Monza are raised bits to prevent cutting chicanes. If I hit something like those in FM3 the car behaves as expected - cross your fingers and hope you make it out OK. In GT5, they are like decals on the road.

- heavy throttle on exit, even in higher gears - for cars with a lot of torque/horsepower, you have to feather the throttle in FM3 to avoid going unstable out of the corners. This is the case even in 2nd gear.

A track like the 'Ring really shows the difference between FM3 and GT5. Sure the GT5 rendition may be more true to life (e.g., narrower), but the driving is harder, in my opinion, in FM3 due to the above reasons. It takes more of my concentration to nail a perfect lap in FM3 and set up when I pass, because I know if I hit the grass, sand, or curbs, I may place myself seconds back. FM3 forces me to drive and race smarter.

That said, I am certainly enjoying the Seasonal Events (the races). Really all they are is a straight copy and paste of Project Gotham Racing. If you've played PGR you'll instantly make comparisons to the overtake challenges. I loved those in PGR, and I'm enjoying those in GT5.

It certainly does, but not in the way you're saying. I just did a race in a Ferrari XX went off into the grass at least three times, smacked into a barrier and I was able to get second. No assists. AI was set to hard and the damage was set to simulation. The Ring in FM3 is much easier for the reasons I described earlier: the road feels like a smooth parking lot. you have to try really hard to upset the balance and stability of your vehicle in FM3's version of the Ring, even in supercars. The tension in driving the Ring simply isnt the same in that game. You cant be serious about FM3 "really forcing you stay on the track", I can take some of the most notoriously difficult bends almost at full throttle.

 

[SavageEvil]

Sorry - too busy playing GT5!

First, regarding the 'Ring NASCAR event - I did get bronze (missed gold by 4 seconds) with skid recovery off and no traction control. It turns out the massive grip (unrealistic IMO) comes from maximizing downforce on the car. Nonetheless, I did a lap in under 6:50 in a freaking Nextel Cup car with NO ASSISTS. Realistic? Certainly not.

In FM3, the following situations really upset the balance of the car:

- grass/dirt - get a wheel off and you must let off the throttle on the higher power cars. You car will spin due to grip on one side and spin on the other. In GT5 you most certainly can get a wheel off the track and maintain control with all assists off. In GT5 you can cut corners excessively without penalty, either in terms of scrubbed off speed or instability. Now in FM3 it is unrealistic if you try to shortcut the track by going in grass/dirt. The speed is zapped. However, it does penalize you and force you to stay on course.

- curbing - the curbs in FM3 are modeled much better than GT5. In FM3 I have to know the tracks intimately to know which corners I can use the curbs and which I can't. Likewise, in FM3 I can use the curbing to unbalance the car enough, put the throttle down, oversteer, and power through. You feel the feedback from the curbs on the controller. In GT5, in the 20+ hours I've logged the curbs seem like they are nearly flush with the ground. At Monza they seem merely painted on. Also at Monza are raised bits to prevent cutting chicanes. If I hit something like those in FM3 the car behaves as expected - cross your fingers and hope you make it out OK. In GT5, they are like decals on the road.

- heavy throttle on exit, even in higher gears - for cars with a lot of torque/horsepower, you have to feather the throttle in FM3 to avoid going unstable out of the corners. This is the case even in 2nd gear.

A track like the 'Ring really shows the difference between FM3 and GT5. Sure the GT5 rendition may be more true to life (e.g., narrower), but the driving is harder, in my opinion, in FM3 due to the above reasons. It takes more of my concentration to nail a perfect lap in FM3 and set up when I pass, because I know if I hit the grass, sand, or curbs, I may place myself seconds back. FM3 forces me to drive and race smarter.

That said, I am certainly enjoying the Seasonal Events (the races). Really all they are is a straight copy and paste of Project Gotham Racing. If you've played PGR you'll instantly make comparisons to the overtake challenges. I loved those in PGR, and I'm enjoying those in GT5.

Not sure what GT5 you are playing, but everything upsets the balance of your car. Especially your steering inputs, throttle inputs, road surface, where you are on the corner and whether or not you are accelerating or decelerating.

You're talking nonsense, having speed rubbed off instantly for leaving the track? That doesn't happen in real life unless you launched into a sand pit. Putting a tire in the grass affects the drive wheel of the car in GT5, know what you are talking about before coming to conclusions. Most american cars the drive wheel is the right rear, also the amount of positive lock the LSD has will greatly affect this under acceleration.

I beat the Nascar seasonal challenge without changing my downforce at all. I use nothing but ABS, everything else is pointless to me. Did you beat the challenge? Bronze and the lead was ahead by only 4 seconds? If GT5 is easier than FM3 to get a perfect lap, you should have beaten that challenge yes?

Dude are you driving with SKID FORCE RECOVERY on? Turn it off and then come online, I want to race against you. The things you talk about sound like they come from an amateur who basically watches someone experienced playing the game. The curbing in GT5 is part of the course as it is in real life, it's not supposed to be a detriment to your car, but depending on how you hit the curbing you can upset your car greatly, this is quickly demonstrated on la Sarthe the second corner, if you run across those strips, the yellow ones in a high powered rear drive car and attempt to steer too much you will see just how upset your car can get.

You commenting about getting unstable in 2nd gears says about how much you know about cars at all, the lower the gearing the easier it is for too much power to be applied thus causing wheel spin. The whole wheel in the dirt thing in FM3 is exaggerated, I can consistently put two wheels in the dirt with a Saleen S7 under braking and not lose it at all, the longest straight on Road Atlanta where you have that sharp left hander after the straight, I put two wheels in the dirt when I need to scrub off a lot of speed quickly and it doesn't even upset the car and in FM3 I play with ZERO aids at all.

I want to see you online in GT5, we will drive on the Nurburgring and see if these things you say are true or not. I can say that what you are talking about is pretty false when you say you drive with no aids in GT5, everyone else has a problem when you put one drive wheel in the grass, but you somehow don't...only thing I can think of is Skid Force Recovery!

 

[theignoramus]

Not sure what GT5 you are playing, but everything upsets the balance of your car. Especially your steering inputs, throttle inputs, road surface, where you are on the corner and whether or not you are accelerating or decelerating.

You're talking nonsense, having speed rubbed off instantly for leaving the track? That doesn't happen in real life unless you launched into a sand pit. Putting a tire in the grass affects the drive wheel of the car in GT5, know what you are talking about before coming to conclusions. Most american cars the drive wheel is the right rear, also the amount of positive lock the LSD has will greatly affect this under acceleration.

I beat the Nascar seasonal challenge without changing my downforce at all. I use nothing but ABS, everything else is pointless to me. Did you beat the challenge? Bronze and the lead was ahead by only 4 seconds? If GT5 is easier than FM3 to get a perfect lap, you should have beaten that challenge yes?

Dude are you driving with SKID FORCE RECOVERY on? Turn it off and then come online, I want to race against you. The things you talk about sound like they come from an amateur who basically watches someone experienced playing the game. The curbing in GT5 is part of the course as it is in real life, it's not supposed to be a detriment to your car, but depending on how you hit the curbing you can upset your car greatly, this is quickly demonstrated on la Sarthe the second corner, if you run across those strips, the yellow ones in a high powered rear drive car and attempt to steer too much you will see just how upset your car can get.

You commenting about getting unstable in 2nd gears says about how much you know about cars at all, the lower the gearing the easier it is for too much power to be applied thus causing wheel spin. The whole wheel in the dirt thing in FM3 is exaggerated, I can consistently put two wheels in the dirt with a Saleen S7 under braking and not lose it at all, the longest straight on Road Atlanta where you have that sharp left hander after the straight, I put two wheels in the dirt when I need to scrub off a lot of speed quickly and it doesn't even upset the car and in FM3 I play with ZERO aids at all.

I want to see you online in GT5, we will drive on the Nurburgring and see if these things you say are true or not. I can say that what you are talking about is pretty false when you say you drive with no aids in GT5, everyone else has a problem when you put one drive wheel in the grass, but you somehow don't...only thing I can think of is Skid Force Recovery!

Yeah, his claims are completely alien to my experience on the Nordschleiefe in both games. I can drive it in FM3 with no aids half asleep.

 

[niky]

Interesting you bring up curbs. I was just thinking about this a while ago, while playing around on the Nurburgring. There's no real sense of bottoming out over GT5's curbs... or the unsettling action such curbs can have on poorly set up cars... though I suppose I should try and over-lower a car to see if this holds true in all cases. The only time I've really felt any unsettling or bottoming out was in the PDI Kart.

The grass in GT5 is just as it should be. I think what's at issue is that traction control is activated once you get wildly off into the grass... which kind of lessens the penalty of a mistake. Still, I have gotten cars sideways by putting a wheel off. Might go out and do some testing later.

 

[tigermilk]

Not sure what GT5 you are playing, but everything upsets the balance of your car. Especially your steering inputs, throttle inputs, road surface, where you are on the corner and whether or not you are accelerating or decelerating.

Steering inputs certainly do upset the balance, much more than FM3. But aside from that? Nope.

I beat the Nascar seasonal challenge without changing my downforce at all. I use nothing but ABS, everything else is pointless to me. Did you beat the challenge? Bronze and the lead was ahead by only 4 seconds? If GT5 is easier than FM3 to get a perfect lap, you should have beaten that challenge yes?

Care to post your lap times? Do you think those sub 7 minute times are realistic? I'd certainly hope you'd say no. And yes, it is easier to get a perfect lap in GT5, but the Seasonal Event is not a realistic situation. If you think it is, you don't know realism! There's no way a Nextel Cup car could outpace a LM prototype in real life. The challenge in GT5 is nothing more than an arcade event, ala the overtake challenges of PGR.

Dude are you driving with SKID FORCE RECOVERY on? Turn it off and then come online, I want to race against you. The things you talk about sound like they come from an amateur who basically watches someone experienced playing the game. The curbing in GT5 is part of the course as it is in real life, it's not supposed to be a detriment to your car, but depending on how you hit the curbing you can upset your car greatly, this is quickly demonstrated on la Sarthe the second corner, if you run across those strips, the yellow ones in a high powered rear drive car and attempt to steer too much you will see just how upset your car can get.

Read the updated message - SFR is OFF. The car has excessive downforce (and unrealistic, IMO, for this particular car). While I appreciate the invite, I probably won't go online due to years of unpleasant online experiences with other racing games. Needless to say, I'm typically top 5% on FM3 lap times with all assists off. I've been playing racing games on PC and consoles for some 15+ years and have seen all types of driving models.

You commenting about getting unstable in 2nd gears says about how much you know about cars at all, the lower the gearing the easier it is for too much power to be applied thus causing wheel spin.

???? I said even in 2nd gear you have to be careful in FM3 with the higher powered cars. They simply have too much torque and it causes wheelspin even in 2nd gear.

To me, FM3 plays more like Simbin's Race Pro on the 360. While I haven't played GTR on PC (PC experience was heavily into GPL), the physics engine is pretty much ported over intact. GT has always seemed more grippy to me. Nothing wrong with that - it's just an alternative model. Both games are great, but there are differences.

 

[SavageEvil]

Interesting you bring up curbs. I was just thinking about this a while ago, while playing around on the Nurburgring. There's no real sense of bottoming out over GT5's curbs... or the unsettling action such curbs can have on poorly set up cars... though I suppose I should try and over-lower a car to see if this holds true in all cases. The only time I've really felt any unsettling or bottoming out was in the PDI Kart.

The grass in GT5 is just as it should be. I think what's at issue is that traction control is activated once you get wildly off into the grass... which kind of lessens the penalty of a mistake. Still, I have gotten cars sideways by putting a wheel off. Might go out and do some testing later.

Hmm, I've never really had any car that actually scrapes the curbs when going over them, then again I don't drive my whole car over them at all, well the one curb I tend to go up and over is that left hander coming after Fuchsrohre, tell you what, NASCARs do not like that curbing at all. I put both front wheels on that and my car took flight. It's incredible that they smoothed out the bump sections especially in Kallenhard, GT4 that would make your car do all sorts of dances.
You can however bottom out on the Karussel, seems like the same thing happens on Cape Ring as well on the elevated loop.

I try to avoid the grass as much as possible in GT5, because you sweat not knowing what will happen, sometimes you can get a tire in there and nothing might happen(speed dependent), but other times you are going for a hellish ride, and with a wheel you have to move quickly, as controllers don't have such lag.
I will check later for bottoming out with race cars over curbs on the Nurburgring, but street cars will pretty much never bottom out as they are in no way that low, save for when you hit the karussel, almost any car will bottom out in that.


@ Tigermilk, none of the events in GT5 are remotely realistic. Who can win a race from the back of the back in 2 laps against equal opponents? Be serious, we know it's a game and it's going to be a game for the rest of its career.

I posted my lap times on the other page, both were just under 6:50. Stop comparing real life to video game, there are reasons why real life times do not get too low, it's called fear. Not sure why you think that a NASCAR can't post such times, considering that a ZR1 vette posted a 7:28 second time with only 636hp and not even the same kind of downforce, you think that a Race Car can't post better than that? Sub 7 min time in a 830hp 3400lb race car is a possibility. While on that subject, want to see what kind of times people are capable of in FM3 using a comparable car? Those times are even more unrealistic than GT5's, considering that the road in FM3 is so much wider and you have way too much grip, I don't know why you are having such a hard time getting flawless laps on it.

What is perplexing is that you claimed to be in the top 5% in FM3 lap times with assists off, but claim to have problems getting a flawless lap on the Ring? That doesn't even make sense. Post your tag so I can look you up on the lap times list, my brother plays FM3 avidly. I stopped playing but he's on there and he's not the fastest but he can post good times top 5%, sometimes top 1%.

You make claims but they are clearly untrue, if you think that only steering inputs upsets your car in GT5 you are clearly imagining things. I've had my car get rather squirrely when I downshifted too early, lower gears are definitely hard to drive through even in a straight line with a powerful car, on a turn it's much more pronounced as you have to be careful of your slip angle before applying throttle, that G meter is useful. Things I did in FM3 and could get away with can't even attempt those in GT5 without serious risk of losing control of my car. Not sure why you think GT5 has all this monster grip, when you can in FM3 have a car with no adjustable downforce and have it out turn cars with downforce. NASCAR vehicles do have a good deal of downforce, but they also have serious weight and not to mention they have absolutely huge tires. You are forgetting one important thing about cars, without good tires they can't do much. FM3 has many things going for it, but it's forgiving physics isn't one of them.

You not accepting the invite to drive online is one that I take as a serious hit to your credibility. I asked you to come online and drive, since you say that GT5 doesn't upset the car in ways that FM3 does, so since you say this. I would want you to drive around the Nurburgring as fast as you can with as little mistakes as possible, since you know GT5 is more forgiving. I'm not afraid to defend my words, in fact the simple reason I want to defend my words is because I have played both of these games since each one has come out and GT5 when the aids are off, you must be very deliberate with everything you do. You can't power your way anywhere, either get your car in a straight line before pouring on the power or pay the price. What tires are you using in GT5? Racing tires are so well done, snap oversteer is just incredible being just as unpredictable when it comes to losing grip in real life. Think it over, my PSN ID is in my name, send me a message and I will set up a room with only ABS and real edge grip loss.

 

[niky]

Hmm, I've never really had any car that actually scrapes the curbs when going over them, then again I don't drive my whole car over them at all, well the one curb I tend to go up and over is that left hander coming after Fuchsrohre, tell you what, NASCARs do not like that curbing at all. I put both front wheels on that and my car took flight. It's incredible that they smoothed out the bump sections especially in Kallenhard, GT4 that would make your car do all sorts of dances.
You can however bottom out on the Karussel, seems like the same thing happens on Cape Ring as well on the elevated loop.

I try to avoid the grass as much as possible in GT5, because you sweat not knowing what will happen, sometimes you can get a tire in there and nothing might happen(speed dependent), but other times you are going for a hellish ride, and with a wheel you have to move quickly, as controllers don't have such lag.
I will check later for bottoming out with race cars over curbs on the Nurburgring, but street cars will pretty much never bottom out as they are in no way that low, save for when you hit the karussel, almost any car will bottom out in that.

I must admit, I haven't driven a wide enough variety of cars in GT5 yet. Still getting my sea legs back under me.

In real life, some of the softer street cars will bottom out over curbs. Sometimes not enough to upset them beyond changing your line a little bit. Depends on the height of the curb and how hard you hit it.

Of course, since I don't live near any of these tracks in real life, whether the curbs are high enough to replicate what I've felt and seen is going to be purely conjectural....