What have you done to your car today?

[niky]

As PB says, sounds like boiling fluid. Got that myself, even after a change to Hawk Pads and slotted rotors... and after just five laps on track (to be fair, they were full-bore laps while being chased by a touring-spec Corolla... and the hairpin braking zone has you going from 100 mph to nearly zero in short order). A change in brake fluid and stainless lines should help.

 

[flohtingPoint]

As PB says, sounds like boiling fluid. Got that myself, even after a change to Hawk Pads and slotted rotors... and after just five laps on track (to be fair, they were full-bore laps while being chased by a touring-spec Corolla... and the hairpin braking zone has you going from 100 mph to nearly zero in short order). A change in brake fluid and stainless lines should help.

Brake fade is impossible at an autox, same with boiling fluid. The runs are too short, the braking is not severe enough and there is plenty of downtime between runs. This sounds more like a master cyl problem or a problem with a caliper seal.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Aside from the part where he mentioned they were doing runs nearly back to back.

 

[flohtingPoint]

Aside from the part where he mentioned they were doing runs nearly back to back.

Look how many competitors there were and how long the lap times were. Going back and staging again would take even longer than the 5 minute allotted for SCCA. Either way, you're not going to get brake fade at any auto-x or problems with fluid boiling as braking at an autocross is not very severe (if it is, you're doing something HORRIBLY wrong).

 

[niky]

Not all cars have bombproof braking systems. Some start to boil over after just two or three hard stops. We've run events with stock cars... even with just single lap runs and a rest period between laps, the brakes can go limp after a few runs... then catch fire after several.

And that's on a track layout with only two heavy braking points. Other tracks are gentler on the brakes, with big radius curves and cambered corners that don't require too much braking. But an autocross isn't gentle. The turns are sharper, the braking is harder. And at one and a half minutes, Eric's event is one long autocross.

Mind you, I've seen a guy get brake fade and curb his stock, year old car on a fifty second autocross run (and his runs were far apart). Understandably, his car had crappy brakes (it was a Yaris sedan).

 

[flohtingPoint]

Not all cars have bombproof braking systems. Some start to boil over after just two or three hard stops. We've run events with stock cars... even with just single lap runs and a rest period between laps, the brakes can go limp after a few runs... then catch fire after several.

And that's on a track layout with only two heavy braking points. Other tracks are gentler on the brakes, with big radius curves and cambered corners that don't require too much braking. But an autocross isn't gentle. The turns are sharper, the braking is harder. And at one and a half minutes, Eric's event is one long autocross.

Braking is not harder at all in autox. Braking from 2nd gear to shed a few mph is nothing compared to braking after slamming down the pit straight and coming into T1. Like I said, you're doing something wrong if you're having problems with braking (cold brakes aside).

Your friend curbing a stock yaris must be a very inexperienced autocrosser or doing something really dumb (also, who auto-x's a Yaris, they're going to get decimated by Mini's and Civic's in H-stock).

If you need a good example of how little abuse brakes take while Autocrossing, look at Bill Schenker's brakes in a recent past GRM. They're massively drilled out. If braking was as severe as you think it is, he would have some massive issues.

 

[Eric.]

Yeah I'm just making this all up. Or "doing it wrong". Guess that was the clutch I was using.

 

[niky]

Braking is not harder at all in autox. Braking from 2nd gear to shed a few mph is nothing compared to braking after slamming down the pit straight and coming into T1. Like I said, you're doing something wrong if you're having problems with braking (cold brakes aside).

Braking down from 100 km/h repeatedly in a modified car or a sports car is nothing like doing the same thing in a stock, modern car. Brand new, showroom stock cars are heavy. Heavy cars eat brakes. An unmodified modern car can experience loss of braking efficiency in very short order in hard driving.

Heck, during one of our group tests, one tester in particular would go out with a car for just three or four minutes and come back with the brakes smoking. (Guy works for another magazine. Fun guy. Wrecks cars). And that was in a parking lot. Not on a race track.

I was complimenting Eric on his times, because not only is his Civic down on power compared to some of the cars on that sheet... it's the four-door 2 liter, which weighs nearly 3,000 lbs.

Your friend curbing a stock yaris must be a very inexperienced autocrosser or doing something really dumb (also, who auto-x's a Yaris, they're going to get decimated by Mini's and Civic's in H-stock).

Wasn't my friend. It was a motoring writer from another publication, and his driving was perfectly okay. I don't remember the times, but his times were close to the rest of the runners that day running in better cars. His brakes just let go all at once.

Not unexpected. Had a Yaris sedan test unit a while back, and boy, does that thing hate hard driving. Even short periods of high performance driving build up so much heat that the electric power steering fails and the automatic transmission starts making funny noises.

If you need a good example of how little abuse brakes take while Autocrossing, look at Bill Schenker's brakes in a recent past GRM. They're massively drilled out. If braking was as severe as you think it is, he would have some massive issues.

Isn't his car a fully modified and featherweight Miata wearing circle track brakes?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/racing/motorsports/the-tire-rack-scca-solo-nationals

 

[Eric.]

By the way Niky, against pretty much everyone's advisement here, I'm running on Eibach Sportline lowering springs with stock shocks and it seems to do great. I'm sure a rougher road course might disagree with it more, but there was some roughness on a sweeper at the airstrip location that didn't phase it much.

Actually those springs have been the only mod that puts me out of stock class. And I put a solid (adjustable) top motor mount on that morning. I'd have taken first in PAX if my best run was clean.


Pretty rough day for a few unlucky guys there though. That Porsche's throw-out bearing went out, the 08ish STI blew a head gasket, and the other Civic Si ran over a cone, ripped the fender liner out along with the HID ballast. Liner was ripped in two, ballast suffered internal damage and made some interesting noises when we got it rigged back up.

 

[niky]

By the way Niky, against pretty much everyone's advisement here, I'm running on Eibach Sportline lowering springs with stock shocks and it seems to do great. I'm sure a rougher road course might disagree with it more, but there was some roughness on a sweeper at the airstrip location that didn't phase it much.

Actually those springs have been the only mod that puts me out of stock class. And I put a solid (adjustable) top motor mount on that morning. I'd have taken first in PAX if my best run was clean.

While there are probably some benefits in grip from the change of springs, I would have advised against it myself (heck, I probably did)... you probably would have set similar times even with a fully stock suspension unless the change has dramatically altered the propensity of the stock car to understeer... though I imagine left-right transitions are more stable now.

How's the mount working for you? Does it help with wheelspin? I had four solid poly mounts on my car once... ...lessened wheel hop and actually sharpened up turn-in by quite a bit... but the vibration was killer. Bumped back down to rubber mounts... hello again wheel-hop... but goodbye backache.

Now that you've been bumped up a class, might as well put on whatever else they allow. A fully adjustable suspension should do you better than the lowering springs... probably even allow you to dial in a little oversteer to get the car to rotate better.

Pretty rough day for a few unlucky guys there though. That Porsche's throw-out bearing went out, the 08ish STI blew a head gasket, and the other Civic Si ran over a cone, ripped the fender liner out along with the HID ballast. Liner was ripped in two, ballast suffered internal damage and made some interesting noises when we got it rigged back up.

Saw that in the thread. Pretty rough... losing your engine on an autocross. What'd he do? Engine-brake it all day? Was it heavily modified?

 

[Punknoodle]

Sorry to interupt the autoX talk (I'm enjoying reading it by the way, interesting stuff) but just thought I'd update a small amount of progress with the GT-Four,
my Samco intake hoses arrived from Fensport yesterday, so I fitted them up, but when the guys doing the tune on it tried to dodge up the old intake pipe (pictured) they cut the PCV line short, so today I got some more.

The only oil-vapour resistant hose they had was in red, I was worried it would look terrible in my engine bay with the blue hoses but it doesn't look too bad I reckon

Anyway, now with that on I can get the car back to get tuned on the dyno, although I'm flat out doing 14 hour days at work at the moment, so I doubt I can get it there in the next week..

 

[spauldj3800]

Got a tad excited about putting the new heads on my car, started work in a free hour I had after work. From this;

To this;

I've got the day off tomorrow and a mate coming to give me a hand, should hopefully get the changeover done.

 

[flohtingPoint]

Braking down from 100 km/h repeatedly in a modified car or a sports car is nothing like doing the same thing in a stock, modern car. Brand new, showroom stock cars are heavy. Heavy cars eat brakes. An unmodified modern car can experience loss of braking efficiency in very short order in hard driving.

It's painfully obvious that you dont know anything about autocross. If you did, you'd know that FS cars do just fine with their brakes and they're about the heaviest things on the course. Hell, one of the FS cars here in DC (which is also nationally driven) has three drivers (co-driven in FS and an FS-L entry) and there is no issues.

Isn't his car a fully modified and featherweight Miata wearing circle track brakes?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/racing/m...solo-nationals

Yea, and if you actually read the article, you'd come to the part where it says:

Bill has sought out the smallest, lightest brakes he can find that still comply with the rules, to reduce unsprung weight. “These are used by the circle-track guys,” says Bill. “Wilwood sells this as a motorcycle caliper. Even though the brakes don’t work well, they work well enough.” Note to self: It’s all about carrying speed, and slowing down as little as possible.

Bill is a national level competitor using a motorcycle caliper, if brakes were an issue then he'd have anything other than that. Bills car is also hardly a featherweight (there are lots of limitations in Street Prepared). A featherweight would be a Prepared car, like Chris Dorsey's.

Here is a great example of how little the brakes are used in an autocross. Below is a video where I blew a seal in a caliper and lost a lot of brake pressure. I was able to complete my run and wound up winning my class. You can see at the end of the video, when I'm in the stopbox, I'm cadence braking to try to build up pressure just to fully stop my vehicle.



You're talking about stuff you have no clue about and giving out bad advice. This year alone I've logged around 30 days autocrossing and never once (this year or any year) have I had a problem with brake fade or boiling fluid.

 

[Eric.]

While there are probably some benefits in grip from the change of springs, I would have advised against it myself (heck, I probably did)... you probably would have set similar times even with a fully stock suspension unless the change has dramatically altered the propensity of the stock car to understeer... though I imagine left-right transitions are more stable now.

Comparing how my car looks to the black Si, body control was definitely in check a lot better.

How's the mount working for you? Does it help with wheelspin? I had four solid poly mounts on my car once... ...lessened wheel hop and actually sharpened up turn-in by quite a bit... but the vibration was killer. Bumped back down to rubber mounts... hello again wheel-hop... but goodbye backache.

So far I haven't dealt with much wheelspin to know, but shifts are 100x more solid now. The vibration isn't bad. Pretty much just starting the car and taking off ~1500rpm is when its the worst.[/quote]

Now that you've been bumped up a class, might as well put on whatever else they allow. A fully adjustable suspension should do you better than the lowering springs... probably even allow you to dial in a little oversteer to get the car to rotate better.

I'll probably get aftermarket shocks at some point. I don't know about coilovers. Need $$$. I think one of the best things I could get to improve the autox performance is going to be FlashPro so I can put a tune on it. Lower VTEC changeover should help quite a bit.[/quote]

Saw that in the thread. Pretty rough... losing your engine on an autocross. What'd he do? Engine-brake it all day? Was it heavily modified?

The car was pretty much stock I think. Maybe a few bolt-ons. And he wasn't really abusing it. Just bad luck and maybe a pre-existing problem. He's hoping he can get it warrantied.




flohtingpoint: Our course is over a mile long, average speed of 45mph, with about 5 hard braking zones from 55+ to around 15mph. Its hardly like your usual autocross course design.

 

[flohtingPoint]

Our course is over a mile long, average speed of 45mph, with about 5 hard braking zones from 55+ to around 15mph. Its hardly like your usual autocross course design.

Doesn't matter, you still have to stage afterward. Qualcomm has a huge lot and I didnt have a hint of problems there (brake related), neither did anyone else on site. Brakes have problems when you're doing multiple laps over and over again w/out a wait (ie: on a circuit). Even at a pro-solo, where you have runs w/out as much as 2 minutes between waiting time, you're not going to have problems.

The only problem with heat people get is controlling their r-comp temp and that's easily remedied with a sprayer.

 

[Eric.]

K cool. I'm an idiot. Thanks for letting me know my stock Civic brakes are perfectly suited for autocross and won't ever be an issue until I'm doing endurance racing.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Doesn't matter, you still have to stage afterward. Qualcomm has a huge lot and I didnt have a hint of problems there (brake related), neither did anyone else on site. Brakes have problems when you're doing multiple laps over and over again w/out a wait (ie: on a circuit). Even at a pro-solo, where you have runs w/out as much as 2 minutes between waiting time, you're not going to have problems.

The only problem with heat people get is controlling their r-comp temp and that's easily remedied with a sprayer.

I've got cheap autozone brakes on my 240, and driving on back roads, they fade in about 3 corners.

You can fade brakes on an autocross course. Logging 30+ autocrosses means nothing, proven by how painfully awful 90% of the drivers are at autocrosses.

My pads on my old Civic had an operating temp of 100-800 degrees fahrenheit. (entry level autocross pads, had to be warmed up to work properly, better than what 95% of cars at autocrosses are running) I would have heat problems in about 4 minutes of hard driving from a cold start. When they were already warm, they pretty much billowed smoke at every corner 30 seconds into a run in the mountains. I know when I check cars for sticking brake calipers at work, I can get them to roughly 400 degrees in about 10 brake applications from 45-50mph to about 20mph. This is not threshold braking, just harder than average braking.

If you can't overheat a set of pads meant for an estimated maximum operating temp of 500 degrees or so in a few autocross runs, you're not going fast enough. Keep in mind a set of rotors and pads that were at 400 degrees or so are still around 200 degrees 20 minutes later when you start to do your second run.

EDIT: I watched a bunch of your autocross videos. You coast a lot to slow down instead of staying on the gas until you absolutely have to brake.

 

[niky]

@Punknoodle: Looks tasty. About time I fixed my own hoses... It's a mix of black and blue and looks about as pathetic as it sounds... got to get rid of the old black ones...

I'll probably get aftermarket shocks at some point. I don't know about coilovers. Need $$$. I think one of the best things I could get to improve the autox performance is going to be FlashPro so I can put a tune on it. Lower VTEC changeover should help quite a bit.

I'd stick with suspension mods if you're worried about laptimes, but then, the K20 responds pretty well to reflashing, and it's something you'll appreciate all the time... not just on track. Your call.

Bill is a national level competitor using a motorcycle caliper, if brakes were an issue then he'd have anything other than that. Bills car is also hardly a featherweight (there are lots of limitations in Street Prepared). A featherweight would be a Prepared car, like Chris Dorsey's.

Bill has a fully-built rear-wheel drive Miata with perfect balance, downforce and race compound tires. Eric's car weighs over 1,000 lbs more, is front-wheel drive (and consequently, front heavy), has no downforce and street tires. Bill can carry speed through corners. Eric can't. Try that in a big FD Civic and you'll end up washing far wide and losing a lot of time. Eric.has.to.brake.

It's a mistake to equate the weight of your system to the propensity to boil over, or to compare any aftermarket system (Honestly... it's a Wilwood aftermarket brake system... not a bone-stock motorcycle caliper... heck... even drifters are now using motorcycle style discs) to a bone-stock braking system on a family car. Honestly. We're all telling you how easy it is to fade brakes. From experience. Why don't you believe us?

You're talking about stuff you have no clue about and giving out bad advice. This year alone I've logged around 30 days autocrossing and never once (this year or any year) have I had a problem with brake fade or boiling fluid.

Upgrading brakes for any performance driving is not bad advice. In fact, it's the first upgrade most stock cars need.

Not all tracks and not all autocrosses are created the same. I've driven on tracks where I've experienced absolutely no brake fade over a dozen laps back to back (high cambers, sweeping corners). I've driven on others where you get brake fade after just two full on laps, and boiling coolant after two or three sessions (even if the sessions aren't back-to-back). In Eric's case, his autocross is high speed and the lap times are pretty long. It's easy to believe they can be hard on stock braking components. Four high speed stops is more than enough for most street cars.

Yes, I can make brakes last much longer. By going slower. But it's much more fun rubbing it in the face of a guy with a faster/lighter/better car by lapping faster than him. Fun until you pop a coolant hose, catch your brakes on fire or run out of oil...

I'm no "expert" when it comes to cars, but I'm reasonably quick on the autocross and on the track (my heel-toe is pathetic, but I get competitive times) and I've driven thirty or more different cars on the track and in slaloms and autocrosses over the past two years, and dozens more off the track but in a reasonably spirited manner (drifted a Prius). I've seen brakes fade, smoke and literally catch fire. I've seen people go off track head-first after just one hot lap because the previous laps had stressed their brakes so.

Forgive me for my paranoid distrust of braking systems, but most stock brakes aren't worth squat for performance driving.

 

[Eric.]

Regarding the popped STI, its in the shop. When asked the verdict, the owner said: "Nothing yet, they have one in the shop already for a cracked ringland, so they kinda assume that to be the issue." And "It's a tune defect. The knock correction system hasn't worked well since 07 which is why every year since 07 has ringland issues"

 

[McLaren]

Brake fade is impossible at an autox, same with boiling fluid. The runs are too short, the braking is not severe enough and there is plenty of downtime between runs. This sounds more like a master cyl problem or a problem with a caliper seal.

Uh, it isn't. I've done a few spirited runs in my Si outside Dallas & I've noticed brake fade setting in around the same time it would take Eric to do 2 runs in the length he says the course is.

As niky said, heavy cars eat brakes, & even my TL will start to tear through it's 4-pot Brembos in 3 laps at MSR.

 

[niky]

Regarding the popped STI, its in the shop. When asked the verdict, the owner said: "Nothing yet, they have one in the shop already for a cracked ringland, so they kinda assume that to be the issue." And "It's a tune defect. The knock correction system hasn't worked well since 07 which is why every year since 07 has ringland issues"

Ouch. Shouldn't that be a warranty or recall issue, then? Not that his chances of getting warranty are good, considering this happened on the track... but it might be worth a shot to try and claim it.

 

[Eric.]

Its at the dealership and probably being covered under warranty. Not like he's gonna be all "yeah I was coming out of this sweeper in the middle of second and right as it went on full boost I saw a white cloud behind me but then I had to get back on the brakes for the slalom".

 

[Punknoodle]

Its at the dealership and probably being covered under warranty. Not like he's gonna be all "yeah I was coming out of this sweeper in the middle of second and right as it went on full boost I saw a white cloud behind me but then I had to get back on the brakes for the slalom".

Haha yeah, THAT would be a bad move.

I've heard of cops taking photos of cars at track days, just randomly, and if any insurance claims come up after the track day and they have some evidence the accident happened at the track - boom insurance declined and a fraud charge!

 

[Eric.]

Google "2007-" or "2008 STI ringland". The results aren't a good sign. I think he needs to fix the car and get rid of it.

 

[Punknoodle]

Why can't I stop spending money on my car? I should be saving :s
Bah thats boring, just ordered a Whiteline adjustable rear sway bar, as soon as my car is finished getting tuned and I know there isn't anything I need to spend money on straight away I'll order the TEIN superstreet damper kit for it, and I've asked for a quote to replace all the bushings with superpro items as the car is getting a little old and a little spruce up is in order to keep things nice and tight...

And with that the little car should have a far better feel on the road, especially compared with the tired old dampers it has at the moment with bad wheel alignment, can't wait!

 

[spauldj3800]

Put on one of the two new cylinder heads, was pretty stoked with the condition of the engine inside. After 240 000 kilometres, the bores have no lips and hone marks can still be easily seen. Engine has never been opened.

Then it went downhill. I think one of the holes in the head for the exhaust manifold was stripped, didn't pick it up before I put the head on and torqued it down. So after 1/2 hour of stretching, twisting and cursing trying to get the stud in, I called the car something that would get me banned here, turned the lights off, came inside and cracked a can of CC and Dry.

Its been a long day.

 

[Paulie]

Why can't I stop spending money on my car? I should be saving :s
Bah thats boring, just ordered a Whiteline adjustable rear sway bar, as soon as my car is finished getting tuned and I know there isn't anything I need to spend money on straight away I'll order the TEIN superstreet damper kit for it, and I've asked for a quote to replace all the bushings with superpro items as the car is getting a little old and a little spruce up is in order to keep things nice and tight...

And with that the little car should have a far better feel on the road, especially compared with the tired old dampers it has at the moment with bad wheel alignment, can't wait!

Sounding good Punk......noodle. Saving is over-rated when it comes to cars. Nah, I try to do both, it takes longer to get the things I want for my Ute, but at the same time I'm able to put away $250-$300 a week. I'm pretty happy where my engine is for my Ute at the moment, producing around 180rwhp, so now I can focus on other things, like maintenance, bucket seats, paint restoration and if I deem it necessary maybe some coil-overs because I want my Ute lower but not as stiffly sprung, so some roll bars will probably also be neccessary to keep cornering in check.

Put on one of the two new cylinder heads, was pretty stoked with the condition of the engine inside. After 240 000 kilometres, the bores have no lips and hone marks can still be easily seen. Engine has never been opened.

Then it went downhill. I think one of the holes in the head for the exhaust manifold was stripped, didn't pick it up before I put the head on and torqued it down. So after 1/2 hour of stretching, twisting and cursing trying to get the stud in, I called the car something that would get me banned here, turned the lights off, came inside and cracked a can of CC and Dry.

Its been a long day.

Aint the Commodore 3.8L V6s just great motors for longetivity? Sucks to hear about the cylinder head, will you be getting a warranty replacement?

 

[Punknoodle]

Put on one of the two new cylinder heads, was pretty stoked with the condition of the engine inside. After 240 000 kilometres, the bores have no lips and hone marks can still be easily seen. Engine has never been opened.

Then it went downhill. I think one of the holes in the head for the exhaust manifold was stripped, didn't pick it up before I put the head on and torqued it down. So after 1/2 hour of stretching, twisting and cursing trying to get the stud in, I called the car something that would get me banned here, turned the lights off, came inside and cracked a can of CC and Dry.

Its been a long day.

Dang I hate that. Time to repair the thread. Are the bolts in Holden engines imperial from being an American engine? Never thought of that

 

[spauldj3800]

Aint the Commodore 3.8L V6s just great motors for longetivity? Sucks to hear about the cylinder head, will you be getting a warranty replacement?

Doubt it, pulled it off a wrecker motor and had it reconditioned/ported. I'll try again tomorrow, might have to helicoil it or something. Thats cars I guess!

But otherwise stoked with the engine condition, says a lot about regular servicing and a bit of TLC.

 

[Paulie]

Ahh yes, 2nd hand bits. Ah well I hope you find a suitable solution that won't cause head-aches mate.👍
I personally hope to take my car down the 1/4mile some time soon too, and I know my brother will want to take his atmo 3.8L VN with 210rwhp down as well. It'd be REALLY nice to have pictures taken of my Ute on the strip like you did with your VR, who did that again?