Wheel V Pad

[rosckolove]

What are you guys drag racing x1's?

I'm kidding, but 3 tenths is hardly anything at all, especially considering..

There are less die hard pad users, since most die hard players would try and switch to a wheel with 3 monitors and a 300 dollar hydraulic brake pedal, and some weird subwoofer thing designed to vibrate your buttcheeks while they drink redbull wearing racing gloves.

(i'm not knocking any of that except the racing gloves, i will take the buttcheek vibrator any day)

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

What are you guys drag racing x1's?

Lol.

Most of the cars I drive, 3 tenths is about 2-3 car lengths, and that's across an entire lap. You would regain a tenth (or more) in the slipstream of the wheel user on each straight section of the circuit. Plus that's if we're agreeing that the wheel makes someone 3 tenths quicker, and it's not down to the fact that the most dedicated and skilled players use a wheel, factoring in individual people's ability rather than their input device.

I'm also not sure where drag racing factors into this as it rarely requires steering, eliminating the wheel/pad issue, plus they are cars built for incredible acceleration rather than over all or limited performance, which would exaggerate the difference in distance.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Well actually in this case it is, if the controller is capable of doing it once, it obviously can be done again. In the 550pp italian TT, Using a pad I could keep up with the #1 guy through every corner (just not every corner within the same lap haha) I didn't feel like spending all that time to get the perfect lap, but i'm sure if more die hards used pads, you would see more pad users times up there. Most die hard fast guys use a wheel, so obviously the leaderboard will be cluttered with wheel users times.

So....

Oh and to what you bolded in my quote, i guess i was being modest? I cannot find a record anywhere of any user being faster, using the same cars. Including all of the lap times recorded on this site or anywhere else. The pad is hardly slower.

I'm not trying to come off as a some top driver wannabe, but in this case, i am the best evidence that i can use, as i know its true. Along with that japanese guy who got 5th? or something in a TT using a pad, WITHOUT using ABS.

Just because is not a probable out come, doesn't mean it isn't a possible outcome.

I am in agreement with Rosckolove, the best wheels users are faster than the best pad users, but the difference is literally down to tenths, sometimes hundreths (using Time Trial results as evidence). Sometimes the #1 time is by a pad user, I've had #1 times and I use a pad. I've compared my times in some A spec special events/licenses with when I used to use my G27, and they are pretty much identical, infact I was the tiniest bit quicker with a pad, but that's because I only had a wobbly ironing board to mount my wheel to.

I remember taking part in a mini GTP based TT with Dholland once and could get pretty close to his time; he's a GT Academy finalist who uses a wheel. He also did the same TT with a pad for comparison in which his time was about the same as mine, around 3 tenths slower.

As for tyre wear, it's generally easier to be smooth with a wheel as you have much more precision with steering, braking and accelerating. As has been said though, it seems to be easier to correct a mistake with a pad, however if you become one with a wheel, you get a feeling of the car much better than you do with a pad and can prevent slippage before it even happens. With a pad, it's more about predicting when the slippage will occur as there is zero feedback.

+1, These 2 sums it up well, it's all down to the driver and both input method have advantages/disadvantages. The differences in time could be minimal with equally talented drivers.

In Monza Italian cars TT 45, I used stick and no ABS, my car was 458 Italia, I only have around 8 -10 laps on the TT with my own crappy tune, in the end I got 1:56.505, I can still go faster as that time was done without taking corners like the top drivers do who mostly took very risky driving line ( short cutting without getting red ) and I have few slow corners but I left it there.

For fair comparison, I am comparing against wheel user with the same car and no ABS, I am only one tenths slower, the fastest guy with 458 Italia and no ABS is Mahnegold at 1:56.402 and he is using a wheel. The third guy also uses a stick with 1:56.629 - lan528 from Taiwan.

Out of only 75 drivers worldwide who uses 458 Italia and no ABS, you'll be surprised how many are not using wheel ( almost half )

Here is the link to the board :

TT45, Monza Italian cars, 458 Italia only and no ABS

When I went from pad to wheel , I noticed after a while that it is far easier to drive a paced lap to save tyres than with my pad.

I only have a very crappy thrusmaster wheel and I guess with the better ones out there , it's even easier to conserve tyres and drive silky smooth.

I have been playing racing sims on PC using wheels since in the 90's ( my 1st time was the original Need for Speed), I know how great wheels is giving feedback and smoothness in driving. I am doubting that with a wheel I am going to be slower, or being harder than with a stick. I used to play with Thrustmaster T2 on pc

 

[bs13]

(i'm not knocking any of that except the racing gloves, i will take the buttcheek vibrator any day)

This would make a great signature quote

When it comes to correcting mistakes or recovering from a bump or a spin a DS3 will win every time. A DS3 user only needs to move their thumb 1 inch to go from lock to lock while the wheel user has 900 degrees. This is why I want to be able to change the degrees of rotation for my wheel. It would also make snapback easier to tame in high power rear wheel drive cars.

 

[Jaywalker]

Wasn't this thread about tyre wear?

 

[Felix]

+1, These 2 sums it up well, it's all down to the driver and both input method have advantages/disadvantages. The differences in time could be minimal with equally talented drivers.

In Monza Italian cars TT 45, I used stick and no ABS, my car was 458 Italia, I only have around 8 -10 laps on the TT with my own crappy tune, in the end I got 1:56.505, I can still go faster as that time was done without taking corners like the top drivers do who mostly took very risky driving line ( short cutting without getting red ) and I have few slow corners but I left it there.

For fair comparison, I am comparing against wheel user with the same car and no ABS, I am only one tenths slower, the fastest guy with 458 Italia and no ABS is Mahnegold at 1:56.402 and he is using a wheel. The third guy also uses a stick with 1:56.629 - lan528 from Taiwan.

Out of only 75 drivers worldwide who uses 458 Italia and no ABS, you'll be surprised how many are not using wheel ( almost half )

Here is the link to the board :

TT45, Monza Italian cars, 458 Italia only and no ABS







I have been playing racing sims on PC using wheels since in the 90's ( my 1st time was the original Need for Speed), I know how great wheels is giving feedback and smoothness in driving. I am doubting that with a wheel I am going to be slower, or being harder than with a stick. I used to play with Thrustmaster T2 on pc

I'm thinking about getting the Thurstmaster T500-RS wheel , as I've used their products for donkeys years with flight sims.

I did find once I took my real life Impreza upto 322bhp my times got better in GT5 as I had to adjust my driving style to suit.

 

[Highlandor]

Wasn't this thread about tyre wear?

Yep - OP was about tyre wear diferences... 👍

Seems strange there's so much talk about TT's when there's no tyre wear on TT's and that's (tyre wear) what the OP was asking about??

As said before - tyre wear got NOTHING to do with the equiptment someone is using, it is 100% down to driving style and setup..

 

[rosckolove]

Yep - OP was about tyre wear diferences... 👍

Seems strange there's so much talk about TT's when there's no tyre wear on TT's and that's (tyre wear) what the OP was asking about??

As said before - tyre wear got NOTHING to do with the equiptment someone is using, it is 100% down to driving style and setup..

The OP was asking about tire wear depending on a wheel, or a pad.

We were also explaining how the equipment being used might effect tire wear if used incorrectly, or under certain circumstances.

I can't say you are wrong, because you are not. But whats going on in the OP is probably from someone overturning a wheel, something you can't do on a pad.

 

[thedarski]

Lads lads lads....The issue is not speed. it's trye wear, as I race endurance races not time trials... I did 15 laps of eiger road track in a Mini Cooper S (stock) with my wheel, and my tryes where gone at the end, I then did 15 laps in the same car same track with joypad and my tyres where only half gone. yes the lap times where about half a second faster with the wheel, and there was alot more understeer with the pad, but, and this is my argument with my fellow drivers. you are getting the advantage with a pad when you don't have to pit as much as wheel users. I have tried slowing down with the wheel but the tyres still squeal around the bends. the settings on the car where the same. so this is definitely an error in the game. Thanks for the reply's. keep them coming. and if you want to see what i'm talking about, give it a go. wheel to pad and you will feel that understeer straight away.
Darski

 

[rosckolove]

Pad users only get less tire wear than a wheel user if, the wheel user isn't driving correctly (or a bad setup) You are turning the wheel to much.

There is no error in the game (in this case)

And you provide plenty of evidence for what i said in your post.

 

[Badger-X-]

you are getting the advantage with a pad when you don't have to pit as much as wheel users.

Completely agree! It's nice to hear it from someone else because this has been a frustration for me since picking up my DFGT 3 years ago. I used to race a lot with a league but I always felt like there was an imbalance between wheel vs pad users. It's obviously more pronounced in endurance races but it comes down to the ease of a pad user being able to take their thumb off the dual shock stick and go 100% steering neutral. A wheel user simply cannot do that. I love my wheel and I'm definitely faster than I am with a dual shock but online, in the heat of a race, it's an unfair advantage for DS3 users.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I really don't know where you guys are getting this "disadvantage" from. In my expereinces, I have to pit at about the same time as my wheel user friends in long races with tyre wear on. In fact in replays, those wheel users stand a chance of looking after the back tyres better as the pedals offer a lot more control than the non-lateral response of the acceleration input from a controller. The sensitivity from the controller is whack, particularly when past the 50% acceleration mark, the sensitivity changes dramatically.

As has been said many times already, it must be down to the individual's driving technique.

 

[rosckolove]

I just ran a 25 lap race @ Le Sarthe in LMP cars. I use a controller, and i am super consistent. Half the field pitted the same lap i did, the other half pitted a lap after. I assume they all had wheels, if not just the majority of them.

I think your driving style should be looked into as thats where the real problem you are having lies.

@Lewis Hamilton, i have noticed that change in sensitivity also, 0-50% is awesome using R2 for gas, but anything after that it becomes way more sensitive, almost to the point where its not even worth bothering trying to do anything in between half, and full throttle.

 

[Badger-X-]

Well, I've certainly never been the fastest guy out there, that's for sure, but this has been an issue for me in the past. So much so that I've reluctantly considered going back to using a DS3 when I race online.

@ Lewis_Hamilton_ & rosckolove - I notice you guys are both DS3 users. Do you have experience racing with a wheel? I'm asking because you both seem pretty sure it's driving style that's the problem. I'm genuinely interested if that is just conjecture or expert opinion since going back to racing with a DS3 saddens me.

 

[rosckolove]

I personally have not raced in GT5 with a wheel, but i can assure you (and so will many other wheel users once the right ones come in) that you are probably over turning the wheel, or its your setup. Its highly discussed in this thread that you have a HUGE MIND BLOWING (possible) 3 tenths to gain from using a wheel. Plus the whole heightened experience thing. So don't go back to a DS3, unless your friends make fun of you for having a car cockpit in your living room or hidden in your closet, as i fear my friends would do if i had a serious rig

 

[carracerptp]

I use both a DS3 and DFGT in parallel. Tire wear is down to the driver. I have done many 1 hour races with both and each can eat or save tires. It is easier to save tires on a wheel thought, in "some" cars. Not all.

As for speed.
http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=2&board=2-8-5&start=0
^^ IMHO that a list of the fastest times that can be run. As close to a 100% perfect lap times as we are going to find in an easy list.
The fastest DS3 is .197s off the pace of the fastest wheel.

 

[thedarski]

I can assure you all. I am not over turning the wheel. as soon as i come in to the bend I start to turn the wheel "as you do" and the front wheels light up and they don't with the pad. It's a bug in the game. I'm not the only one in my group who have noticed this. I have videos on youyube to prove my point. but the pad users say it's your driving style, and I say ******** to that. this is coming from pad users who has never even used a wheel before. It's gets me right pissed off when a driver is clearly slower then you with a pad beats you because he has a pit over you. It's not fair. The races i'm in are over an hour long with sometimes 2-3 pit stops sometimes 4 and pitstops is the game are far to slow for this day and age but thats another days work. Here's our youtube channel if you fancy a look. http://www.youtube.com/user/FnBofficialGT5?feature=guide

 

[carracerptp]

I can assure you all. I am not over turning the wheel. as soon as i come in to the bend I start to turn the wheel "as you do" and the front wheels light up and they don't with the pad. It's a bug in the game. I'm not the only one in my group who have noticed this. I have videos on youyube to prove my point. but the pad users say it's your driving style, and I say ******** to that. this is coming from pad users who has never even used a wheel before. It's gets me right pissed off when a driver is clearly slower then you with a pad beats you because he has a pit over you. It's not fair. The races i'm in are over an hour long with sometimes 2-3 pit stops sometimes 4 and pitstops is the game are far to slow for this day and age but thats another days work. Here's our youtube channel if you fancy a look. http://www.youtube.com/user/FnBofficialGT5?feature=guide

If the front wheels light up (bright color or red). You are turning (the wheel it self) to much. If bright red, you are turning WAY to much. Reduce your corner entry speed a bit and turn the wheel less. You will be faster and have better tire wear.

EDIT: Watched the video on your channel. I'm not sure who's who but quite a few drivers are turing the wheel way to much. No question about it. If the front tires are bight red and smoke is coming off them, the corner was taken much to fast for the tires and your are scrubbing off the extra speed and tire tread with the front tires.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I can assure you all. I am not over turning the wheel. as soon as i come in to the bend I start to turn the wheel "as you do" and the front wheels light up and they don't with the pad. It's a bug in the game. I'm not the only one in my group who have noticed this. I have videos on youyube to prove my point. but the pad users say it's your driving style, and I say ******** to that. this is coming from pad users who has never even used a wheel before. It's gets me right pissed off when a driver is clearly slower then you with a pad beats you because he has a pit over you. It's not fair. The races i'm in are over an hour long with sometimes 2-3 pit stops sometimes 4 and pitstops is the game are far to slow for this day and age but thats another days work. Here's our youtube channel if you fancy a look. http://www.youtube.com/user/FnBofficialGT5?feature=guide

Well it is endurance racing, whoever drives the fastest over the race distance wins. I watched a bit of your videos and it is definitely your driving style that is cause of excess tyre wear. You are overusing your tyres too much and not going fast enough to make driving like that work. This video quite clearly shows this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRNttlyEHrM

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

For those questioning the validity of my opinion because I race with a pad and then going further to add some insults, perhaps if you bothered to read my posts correctly, you'd find that I infact own and occasionally use a Logitech G27. The only reason I 95% of the time use a pad is because I have nothing decent to mount my wheel to.

As for the videos, you are clearly trying to take the corners too deep and smoking the tyres. It is unquestionable that it is your driving style as I and many others have said countless times in this thread already. I'm afraid that you're just going to have to accept that. You miss the racing line and overturn the front wheels trying to make up for it. This is something that you need to work on, and in doing so, not only will you massively improve your tyre wear, but also your pace in general.

There is no further debate on this.

For further evidence, here's me using a wheel one of the old Licenses, using a wobbly ironing board as my wheel mount. Even then, you can see that it's all about being smooth, and my tyres are virtually always in the blue. This is how you should be maintaining your tyres, especially in an endurance race.

 

[1241Penguin]

You can't do this with a controller, but you can with a wheel.

 

[thedarski]

Thanks for your help guys. I will try change my driving style and see what happens. I think by using a pad for so long has made me want to go faster when using my wheel. I am only using my wheel about 5 monthes now. But really I should be just enjoying the feeling of using the wheel as it is an amazing feeling and start the "slow in fast out" approach and maybe then I will see an improvement in my tyre wear and lap times.
Darski

 

[thedarski]

But there still is the fact that when I use a pad the front tyres don't light up the tyres at all. never mind my driving style. I'm on full lock on the pad and no squeal from the tyres. this suggests to me the there is defo a bug in the game. go try it. who ever has both, go try it. I am not going to let this go. I am sure there is a problem. It seems to be the pad users who are fighting me on this. most wheel users agree with me. the fact is that. Pad users don't pit as much as wheel users. that is fact....In all the races I've done. It's the same.
Darski

 

[Saidur_Ali]

But there still is the fact that when I use a pad the front tyres don't light up the tyres at all. never mind my driving style. I'm on full lock on the pad and no squeal from the tyres. this suggests to me the there is defo a bug in the game. go try it. who ever has both, go try it. I am not going to let this go. I am sure there is a problem. It seems to be the pad users who are fighting me on this. most wheel users agree with me. the fact is that. Pad users don't pit as much as wheel users. that is fact....In all the races I've done. It's the same.
Darski

It is normally harder to turn as much as you can with a wheel when driving with a pad unless you have got a very oversteery setup. You normally have to be very precise with weight transfer and stick control to get a good lap time which I struggle at but I know the pad aliens can get extremely high levels of control. I can only be competitive with a pad if it has a setup that makes the car easy to turn into corners, normally setups that are undrivable with a wheel.

Anyway back to tyre wear, I think it depends on wheel user and pad user. Pad users are sort of restricted on turn in like mentioned above so you can't put ridiculous amounts of steering lock like you can with a wheel, it should be sort of easier to be faster and better on tyres if you are using a wheel if you drive smoothly. I think problem is quite a lot of people who are new to wheels, put too much steering lock on, most corners you should be able to navigate just using 90 degrees of steering either way and being smoother is faster generally. If you learn to drive smoothly, you should have better tyre wear than the people who you race and also be quite a bit quicker over race distance.

 

[carracerptp]

But there still is the fact that when I use a pad the front tyres don't light up the tyres at all. never mind my driving style. I'm on full lock on the pad and no squeal from the tyres. this suggests to me the there is defo a bug in the game. go try it. who ever has both, go try it. I am not going to let this go. I am sure there is a problem.
Darski

You can't go full "lock" with a control. It limits your "lock" angle based on speed. At a low speed (sub 30KMH for example) you can go full clock. At a high speed (150KPH for example) when the stick is moved all the way to the right it is only turning the wheel a few degrees, otherwise the car would be to very hard to drive with a DS3. A wheels force feedback should do the same thing.

What wheel are you using? Does it have force feedback? Turn the FFB up to 8 or something. If it's to low you won't "feel" when the front wheels are trying to break their grip.

most wheel users agree with me. the fact is that. Pad users don't pit as much as wheel users. that is fact....In all the races I've done. It's the same.
Darski

Sorry, I'm a wheel user (DFGT), and I can safely say that they won't agree with you if they know how to use a wheel (in 1 of your videos I can see 2 people turning the wheel to much).

It's is considered fact in all the series I raced in (many that run over an hour) wheels users have a easier time saving tires than "pad" users. Even at it's worst the wheel gets at least the same tire wear as the pad. Your driving style is the only problem here. Based on the videos you have posted this is 100% clear.

 

[rosckolove]

@ thedarski

You want an answer besides your driving style? There isn't one. It IS your driving style. The only Wheel users that agree with you also aren't using it correctly..

There is no bug in the game, everything that would be a correct answer to your problem has already been stated in this thread.

I agree with you that you cannot duplicate your problem with a pad, if you want to call understeer an advantage, by all means go ahead. If you learn how to use your wheel correctly, you can actually prevent rear tire wear a lot better because instead of having a controller with less then a half inch of travel for the throttle (and the sensitivity not even being the same from 0-100%, YOU have 3-4-5 inches of travel to modulate your throttle output. That gives you WAY more control then any pad user can ever hope for.

What you say about pad users pitting less being fact is absolute BS. It is not factual information whatsoever. If you say "everyone in the league i race with has the same problem" i will reply that everyone in your league needs to learn how to use the equipment they paid hundreds of dollars for correctly.

There is no "bug" in the game, Pad users don't have any advantage on tire wear, work on your driving style. You can reply all you want saying that i wouldn't know because i don't have a wheel, fact is i do know. And just like before, I'm sure plenty of people will come in and agree with me.

I was going to say something about force feedback but i wasn't sure and someone already covered it.

Turn that up ^

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

So after I just posted a video of me using my wheel on an unstable surface and still managing to drive smoothly, not over turning the front wheels and permanently keeping the tyres in the blue and not in the red like your videos, you still go ahead and disagree about your driving style?

I'm sorry, but you are just going to have to swallow your pride and accept that it is your technique causing the problem. There are hundreds of GTPer's who use wheels and do not suffer from your problem. I suggest you learn to alter your method of driving to both eliminate the problem and also increase your race pace. You have some very skilled people here offering you advice but it's no good if you refuse to listen to it.

No one here is trying to insult you, we're only trying to help you.

 

[1241Penguin]

But there still is the fact that when I use a pad the front tyres don't light up the tyres at all. never mind my driving style. I'm on full lock on the pad and no squeal from the tyres. this suggests to me the there is defo a bug in the game. go try it. who ever has both, go try it. I am not going to let this go. I am sure there is a problem. It seems to be the pad users who are fighting me on this. most wheel users agree with me. the fact is that. Pad users don't pit as much as wheel users. that is fact....In all the races I've done. It's the same.
Darski

It is not a bug. It's supposed to be like that. Can you imagine how hard it would be to control a car's steering to make sure it won't "light up" using a controller? The analog sticks can only turn so much physically, so it would be virtually unplayable if the analog sticks allowed you to control the full turn of the wheels.

 

[Slash]

What are you guys drag racing x1's?

I'm kidding, but 3 tenths is hardly anything at all, especially considering..

There are less die hard pad users, since most die hard players would try and switch to a wheel with 3 monitors and a 300 dollar hydraulic brake pedal, and some weird subwoofer thing designed to vibrate your buttcheeks while they drink redbull wearing racing gloves.

(i'm not knocking any of that except the racing gloves, i will take the buttcheek vibrator any day)

Um, no. Every car we can tune in GT5. Like I said, in drag racing. I'm one of the top tuners, I know this very well. .020 of a second can be a full car length online.

 

[rosckolove]

Um, no. Every car we can tune in GT5. Like I said, in drag racing. I'm one of the top tuners, I know this very well. .020 of a second can be a full car length online.

Um, I was joking dude. I was implying that you guys are running fast cars, capable of such a gap but small time difference.