which is the most civilsed nation on earth?

[Duke]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/s...e=books/ref=xs_ap_l_xgl14/103-6429121-2372622

Try this one instead.

 

[Danoff]

Well good on you for noticing. A fair share of the yanks do not remember this. But you might remember the reason given for war in Afganistan? As I recall, it was a direct result of the WTC attack.

It would be good of you to notice that we did not go to war with Afganistan. We worked with the Afganistani "government" (albiet a puppet, impotent government since Afganistan was really in a state of anarchy) to find and demolish Al Qaeda within Afganistan - a proper response to 9-11. The Taliban made themselves a barrier between us and Al Qaeda, so we plowed through them as well.

 

[Arwin]

It would be good of you to notice that we did not go to war with Afganistan. We worked with the Afganistani "government" (albiet a puppet, impotent government since Afganistan was really in a state of anarchy) to find and demolish Al Qaeda within Afganistan - a proper response to 9-11.

This is not quite true. The Taliban controlled about 80% of Afghanistan, where the 'Northern Alliance', Russian backed former Afghan government, controlled an ever declining 20% up the North-West. The U.S. ordered The Taliban to hand over Al Qaeda, which they refused. The U.S. then declared and went to war with the Taliban, and that should, under these circumstances, be considered war with Afghanistan.

As far as Gitmo is concerned, the U.S. has two (internationally) 'legal' options:

- recognise the prisoners as POWs
- consider the prisoners as criminals

In the first case, they can be held without due process, but they have to be released as soon as the conflict is over, and they cannot be interrogated beyond their name rank and number.

In the second case, they are entitled due process.

The U.S. so far declined to determine the position of these prisoners, because they want to both interrogate them and keep them in prison without having to come up with evidence. I can understand some of that, but it is very wrong nonetheless, and does the reputation of the U.S. more wrong than good, and will do so for a very long time.

Anyway, back on topic: before you determine which country is the most civilised, you better agree on some basic definitions on what makes a country civilised. Before that, there's little point in this discussion.

 

[Swift]

ok guys .it seems that the topic turned from "which is the most civil nation" into bashing and ragging on each others nation.Bottom line is there are no civil nations.Each nation has it's own little dirty secrets.So we all could argue and call each other names,untill the cows come home"as the Americans like to say",and you would not get anywhere soon.

There's a distinct point to that. Maybe we should talk about which nationwas FOUNDED on the most civilized principles. Because it's beyond obvious that people corrupt whatever system of government is installed given enough time.

The American system, being the most civilized that I know about, has been corrupted by people that have forgoten what it took to earn the freedoms that we have today.

 

[Hell Raiser]

The American system, being the most civilized that I know about, has been corrupted by people that have forgoten what it took to earn the freedoms that we have today.

That I can agree with..............maybe it's time for them to lose some more of their freedom,before they wake up and understand what that system stood for.

 

[Danoff]

This is not quite true. The Taliban controlled about 80% of Afghanistan, where the 'Northern Alliance', Russian backed former Afghan government, controlled an ever declining 20% up the North-West. The U.S. ordered The Taliban to hand over Al Qaeda, which they refused. The U.S. then declared and went to war with the Taliban, and that should, under these circumstances, be considered war with Afghanistan.

I disagree with the last statement. We went to war with a faction within Afghanistan, but Afghanistan was essentially in a state of anarchy meaning it wasn't really possible to go to war with Afghanistan.

 

[Stian]

I disagree with the last statement. We went to war with a faction within Afghanistan, but Afghanistan was essentially in a state of anarchy meaning it wasn't really possible to go to war with Afghanistan.

This kind of resoning strikes me as odd. The only possible reason for the "it's impossible to go to war with Afganistan, so there" argument is, I think, is an attempt to close your eyes to the reality of war. However you twist things; USA attacked Afganistan. Call it war, a humanitarian campaign, liberation, revenge... It all seem to mean the same thing anyway these days. Preemptive strikes are not very civilized by the way.

 

[///M-Spec]

Gonna thread on soar ground here for sure, but still... How is it that the free press is not allowed to show the coffins of dead american soldiers? Because of the First Amendment? Don't think so myself.

You mean like this one? http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/147...m8JC8piWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Or this one? http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/147...4jfRJJiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Oops. Imagining things, are we? The pictures took me < 2 minutes to find. I guess the government censors missed a couple, eh?

Given your utter lack of accuracy in the first part of your post, I doubt very much needs to be said about the second.


M

 

[Stian]

You mean like this one? http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/147...m8JC8piWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Or this one? http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/147...4jfRJJiWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

Oops. Imagining things, are we? The pictures took me < 2 minutes to find. I guess the government censors missed a couple, eh?

Given your utter lack of accuracy in the first part of your post, I doubt very much needs to be said about the second.


M

Well, too bad you missed the story on how the US media was instructed not to show coffins of dead american soldiers then. It made headlines you know. But not in the US then, I guess...?

 

[Swift]

Preemptive strikes are not very civilized by the way.

And that relates to the retaliation on the afgan nation for hiding Al queda, after they took responsibility for 9/11, how?

 

[///M-Spec]

Well, too bad you missed the story on how the US media was instructed not to show coffins of dead american soldiers then. It made headlines you know. But not in the US then, I guess...?

But yet, here we are, looking at coffins of dead American soldiers. Amazing.

So how is that possible? Or can you not tell me because you're afraid the CIA will find and kidnap you?


M

 

[Stian]

But yet, here we are, looking at coffins of dead American soldiers. Amazing.

So how is that possible? Or can you not tell me because you're afraid the CIA will find and kidnap you?


M

Neat way to avoid the question. Nearly slipped by me that one ;-) But just nearly. Did you miss the news about how the US media was instructed not to show pictures of dead us soldiers returning home in coffins? Or was it simply not being told you in America? It must be one or the other, seeing as you did not know.

edit: honest question that is. I'm not trying to be mean to you, just would like to know

 

[///M-Spec]

Neat way to avoid the question. Nearly slipped by me that one ;-) But just nearly. Did you miss the news about how the US media was instructed not to show pictures of dead us soldiers returning home in coffins? Or was it simply not being told you in America? It must be one or the other, seeing as you did not know.

There was nothing to miss, because your assertion was fiction, buddy. Guess what, the first time I heard of the coffin story --IT WAS ACCOMPANIED BY A PICTURE OF THE COFFINS THE PENTAGON DIDN'T LIKE. So much for censorship.. I guess it doesn't work too well, eh?

I proved you wrong in less than 2 minutes, yet you seem to be desperately clinging to the notion that a censorship conspiracy existed when if fact, if it did and had any power whatsoever to affect the things I see and read, I could not have SO EASILY produced evidence to the contrary.

2 minutes, champ. Less than 2 minutes. I didn't even have to go to some obscure conspiracy theory website. I went to AP.

Gosh, I suppose you wouldn't believe the Earth was round if you were shot into space on a rocket.

Let's talk about images the Pentagon or the Bush administration didn't want people to see: Abu Ghraib. I saw them. Millions of people around the world saw them. In fact, the story was broken by CBS, a US based media outlet. How did this happen? Where were these supposed government censors?


M

 

[Famine]

Neat way to avoid the question. Nearly slipped by me that one ;-) But just nearly. Did you miss the news about how the US media was instructed not to show pictures of dead us soldiers returning home in coffins? Or was it simply not being told you in America? It must be one or the other, seeing as you did not know.

edit: honest question that is. I'm not trying to be mean to you, just would like to know

There's actually three possibilities here:

1. ///M-Spec missed it.
2. The story never surfaced in the US because of evil conspiracies to prevent Americans from knowing anything.
3. The story was made up by someone, because it'd be easy to believe and people could go "Tch! Americans! All the same."

 

[Duke]

Well, too bad you missed the story on how the US media was instructed not to show coffins of dead american soldiers then. It made headlines you know. But not in the US then, I guess...?

Well, too bad you missed the point totally.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4825948/

As one of my previous posts shows (see the quote about China), Microsoft will pretty much roll over for the government and beg to do business, yet here on MSNBC they are posting - gasp - a 'forbidden' picture of US military coffins in the context of - gasp - an article that is critical of the way the war was being run.

Yet of course it's our censored media who aren't running the stories of their own censorship, rather than simple anti-American bullcrap. Neither your sources nor your logic are very trustworthy.

The First Amendment is alive and well. The group of people that protest the Iraq war on Main Street in my town have excercised it every Friday and Saturday evening for the last year. They may get honked at once in a while but so far the police have conspicuously failed to show up and bust their heads.

Yet again...

 

[Danoff]

Preemptive strikes are not very civilized by the way.

Of course the US wasn't invovled in a preemptive strike in (not with) Afganistan, nor have our conflicits with Iraq been preemptive.

 

[Stian]

There's actually three possibilities here:

1. ///M-Spec missed it.
2. The story never surfaced in the US because of evil conspiracies to prevent Americans from knowing anything.
3. The story was made up by someone, because it'd be easy to believe and people could go "Tch! Americans! All the same."

Well, weather the "conspiracy" is "evil" or not would be an entire discussion just there...
You are Brittish I assume. So did you hear about it in the UK? It is a while ago now, so perhaps people have forgotten? Nevertheless, it's clear some guys here have an urge to be as loyal puppies as they can to the president of North America.

 

[ledhed]

Well, weather the "conspiracy" is "evil" or not would be an entire discussion just there...
You are Brittish I assume. So did you hear about it in the UK? It is a while ago now, so perhaps people have forgotten? Nevertheless, it's clear some guys here have an urge to be as loyal puppies as they can to the president of North America.

mmmmm ....... you can head back to your rubber room now the staff is finished cleaning up the mess.

Pess censorship by the government of the US...
Loyalty to George Dubya

The evil CIA conspiracy to remove the minds of Europeans and replace them with chicken brains ...

BTW Saddam hates fruit loops .

 

[///M-Spec]

Nevertheless, it's clear some guys here have an urge to be as loyal puppies as they can to the president of North America.

Yeah, I'm so damn loyal to Dubya that I didn't vote for him either time he ran for office and instead voted for a party that would dismantle most of the US Federal government and remove US troops from pretty much all foreign soil.

Any canine urge I may have is largely confined to occasionally lifting one leg and relieving myself on some of the nonsense I see spouted here regularly.


M

 

[Duke]

Any canine urge I may have is largely confined to occasionally lifting one leg and relieving myself on some of the nonsense I see spouted here regularly.

Comment of the WEEK, right there.

It's always a source of amazement to me how many people will come on here and insist that the average American is a brainwashed moron, when they clearly have very little practice thinking on their own either.

 

[Stian]

Comment of the WEEK, right there.

It's always a source of amazement to me how many people will come on here and insist that the average American is a brainwashed moron, when they clearly have very little practice thinking on their own either.

Why DO all those people insist the average American is a moron I wonder? It's not because of your moronic behaviour perhaps? Me, I think the average American is mere average. Nothing more.

"Do you want freedom fries with that patriot act?"

 

[Famine]

Well, weather the "conspiracy" is "evil" or not would be an entire discussion just there...

All conspiracies are evil. They must be, otherwise they wouldn't be conspiracies. Eh? Eh?

You are Brittish I assume

Nope.

So did you hear about it in the UK?

It's certainly possible it reached these shores, but I largely ignore anything about "the war on terror" because it isn't possible to get a factual report with no bias, making it all totally worthless.

 

[skicrush]

Well, too bad you missed the story on how the US media was instructed not to show coffins of dead american soldiers then. It made headlines you know. But not in the US then, I guess...?

I think I found the hangup. Stian, I think you meant to say "the US media was REQUESTED to not show...." I think that about clears it up.

I think you really see just how much censorship we have here when things like the "Koran in the Toilet" fiasco exploded, or Dan Rather's early retirement (HOORAY!). Editors here don't even self-censor, whether to keep themselves from looking like idiots, or to keep other people from coming to harm. In fact, the only censorship in the US media is for stupid embed reporters like Geraldo Rivera that would expose troops to harm from blabbing their fat mouths. And even that doesn't work well (witness GERALDO RIVERA).

 

[livemusic]

Nope.

Sorry to go off-topic, but where are you from?

 

[donbenni]

Sorry to go off-topic, but where are you from?

He's from an area known only as 'Oop North'. It's a dark place. Don't go there.

 

[Famine]

Sorry to go off-topic, but where are you from?

Without wishing to delve too deep into the politico-geographical nature of the British Isles, I'm English, not British.

 

[livemusic]

Hmm, okay. Thanks!

 

[Duke]

Why DO all those people insist the average American is a moron I wonder? It's not because of your moronic behaviour perhaps? Me, I think the average American is mere average. Nothing more.

Whereas the average Briton or Canadian or whatever is... above average?

Sorry to go off-topic, but where are you from?

He's from England. He's just not Brittish.

 

[Swift]

You know Stian. a little while back I was completely owned because I had a simple lack of scope of my argument. Famine and a few others pretty much smacked me upside the head with my "tunnel vision" and ignorance on certain issues. Well, I'm better for it because I'm able to see more of the picture, on both sides.

However, everytime someone gives you a direct contradiction, with evidence, to one of your statements, you either change what you said or try to say something different. Trust me, that's not the way to win a debate or argument.

If you say America has moronic behavior, then your using stereotypes and discrimination because you simply can't know everyone in the US. I highly doubt you know many of us at all. So for you to say that is purely coming from stereotypes. If you judge the PEOPLE of a nation by its current leader(that changes every 4 - 8 years) then you need some serious help my friend.

 

[Famine]

Whereas the average Briton or Canadian or whatever is... above average?

Well, I help to bring the average up a little...