Why CSA is just ridiculous and should be banned for wheels

[zzz_pt]

Ban CSA, TCS and ABS. But first implement a decent tire model and FFB.

Until then, using any of those will be useful to fill in the gaps left open by the game.

Driving without ABS in this game is ridiculously hard and unrealistic. Driving a car on the limit also gives you ridiculously low levels of FFB from the tires through the wheel.

PS: most of my races and wins in sport mode were done with ABS only or ABS and TCS. Lately I've been using CSA because, as some people already said, it's easier (not faster). If people have a limited time to play the game, what's the problem in leting them use CSA (or TCS)? With or without CSA/TCS you still have to drive the car competently to get good results.

 

[ASH32]

It is definitely a crutch, but I don't see it being anywhere near as bad as SRF was in GT6; that being said I don't think I ever did an SRF race, avoided at all costs.

The "if you don't like it don't use it" argument is fair, but it's not so simple when racing - even if it's only a perceived advantage, people will seek to level the playing field.

This might already be the case so please correct me if it is, but a workable solution could be to offer + / - DR score% based on how many, which, or the severity of driver aids used?

That way the purists can have it off and not feel like they're at a disadvantage (may be a slightly more challenging drive, but they're "reimbursed" through DR score), and people who use it as a crutch can do so without being harassed constantly for doing so (yes it's easier, but I'm negatively affecting the rate of my earnd DR score).

It's definitely nothing like SRF. Levelling the playing field is the reason I started to use CSA, if a number of the top ten do it why wouldn't you, I get put in races with them, they still thrash me mostly but I'm a bit nearer and crash less now.

On giving people more points for not using aids that seems reasonable but it won't be easy to implement and it likely won't work properly just like the clean race bonus doesn't. For example yesterday I got a clean race in a race where I got a corner cut penalty and then two races later I ran a penalty free race without a car in sight (so I couldn't hit one) and never left the track and didn't get a clean race bonus.

 

[_ApexPredator]

On giving people more points for not using aids that seems reasonable but it won't be easy to implement and it likely won't work properly just like the clean race bonus doesn't/QUOTE]

I don't think your cynicism is fair in this example, I take the point, but penalties are a lot more complicated to implement; even in real life it can be difficult to maintain parity when every incident is unique and open to discretionary judgement.

Adjusting %DR earned based on which aids you have turned on is a lot more cut & dry, wouldn't you say?

 

[zzz_pt]

Giving more points for driving without CSA? Sure, how many points? What percentage? Does anyone have any data to back that up?

I've tested CSA and non CSA. Posted countless top 10 times with both options. Won with and without, probably against people using it and not using it too. Do I care, nope.

The last 2 times Interlagos appeared in the daily races, I picked up the M4 and did a 1:26:996 (1st time) with CSA and 1:27:127 without (second time). I'm sure I would match my CSA time with a bit more laps, since getting in the 26's is pretty hard already. My optimal times were identical.

 

[ASH32]

I don't think your cynicism is fair in this example, I take the point, but penalties are a lot more complicated to implement; even in real life it can be difficult to maintain parity when every incident is unique and open to discretionary judgement.

Adjusting %DR earned based on which aids you have turned on is a lot more cut & dry, wouldn't you say?

Not really, I got a clean race when it wasn't (I got a penalty, not sure how more obvious a dirty race can be) and a non-clean race when it was clean, who's to say the game wouldn't decide you used TC when you didn't. Also when does it determine this because you can change things like that during the race, if it's only before the race starts then that's an exploit opportunity right there, ok this is not the case with some things, like the CSA assist but it is with other aids. Also what about the guys (me included) who set qualifying times with it on, should that matter or is that actually a bigger issue than using the aids in the race?

 

[thorfynn]

Ban CSA, TCS and ABS. But first implement a decent tire model and FFB.

These games already exist. Assetto Corsa or rFactor fro example..... ;-))

 

[zzz_pt]

These games already exist. Assetto Corsa or rFactor fro example..... ;-))

I know. But the thread is about GT.

 

[thorfynn]

I know. But the thread is about GT.

Ops. where am i ?!?! ;-)
You´re right man. But every time when a new "GT" is coming, i wonder how far away they are from the AC´s, rfactor´s etc....
But the GT-Series still makes a lot of fun. ;-)

 

[Stotty]

Irrelevant. AC's tyre model might have more variables, but it's still ****.

 

[MINKIHL]

Nah you're just making things up now.


Oh dear, I think you both know very well what I meant by this example. I guess I should of used the term ''training wheels on a little bike''. I do apologise.

It was a bit sarcasm under my post

Ops. where am i ?!?! ;-)
You´re right man. But every time when a new "GT" is coming, i wonder how far away they are from the AC´s, rfactor´s etc....
But the GT-Series still makes a lot of fun. ;-)

You cannot compare GTS a game designed to be driveable with pad and wheel against games which were designed only for wheels to be competitive.

But yes more information and more data for tires and more detailed ffb would be nice

But GTS is the first racing game after the glory Rfactor times, which iam really enjoying.

But there is still waay space to improve this game.

 

[UGA95]

I don't think it should be banned. I think assists like it and stability management should be available for people who aren't that good but just want to enjoy the game.

With that said, I'd be lying if I told you I dont roll my eyes just a little when I see a top 10 time posted using CSA. I think once you each a certain level (perhaps A/S?), all assists should be banned while in Sport mode other than ABS.

 

[SestoScudo]

What I hate more is those elitists who look dowm and complain about assists.

Newsflash most racedrivers use it too.

By the way if you dont use assists good for you. For people its really up to you in using these assists for many dont want to others like to. Nothing wrong with that but jist cant stand those elists who think they are better than everybody just because they dont use assists.

 

[rex1825]

What I hate more is those elitists who look dowm and complain about assists.

Newsflash most racedrivers use it too.

By the way if you dont use assists good for you. For people its really up to you in using these assists for many dont want to others like to. Nothing wrong with that but jist cant stand those elists who think they are better than everybody just because they dont use assists.

Is this sort of eSport? Is this what PD is aiming for with GT Sport? If it is, then assists like CSA need to go... if a car has ABS, it should have factory option in game, if a car has TCS it should have factory option in game, if a car was without those, that should factory settings be for it. So when racing room is created, it can be chosen, on/off/factory. Especially cars manufactured today, they are made with ABS/TCS/ASM in mind, those things need to be factory options, and cars from '60, '70 didn't have any of those (at least Weak ABS for those), but that should be factory options for them.
But CSA... I don't see any of real cars to have it... ah yeah, Tesla does, and so it has AI driving... maybe this is future of motorsport... lol

 

[thorfynn]

You cannot compare GTS a game designed to be driveable with pad and wheel against games which were designed only for wheels to be competitive.

But yes more information and more data for tires and more detailed ffb would be nice

But GTS is the first racing game after the glory Rfactor times, which iam really enjoying.

But there is still waay space to improve this game.

You´re right. Comparing these games is not very - fair in the end. Assetto and rFactor are "Bundesliga", GT is more - well, you name it. ;-)
Na Scherz beiseite.

I also enjoy to play the GT-Series.
And maybe the game is not sooo good in physics - it blows away the others with the really nice graphics. ;-)

 

[phil_75]

Come on guys, you all know that using CSA with a wheel is just plainly ridiculous!
The option should only be active for controller settings. (Suggest this to PD please)

- The whole point of using a wheel is that you want to steer the car as the real thing.
- The Force Feedback gets messed up - strange forces when the correction gets active
- Some of you guys keep saying 'it does not make me faster' and then 'just resting my arms' or 'just a safety net' or 'just makes me more consistent' Don't be ridiculous. It helps a lot, it prevents spinning, so you can drive on the limit more consistently and thus are way faster on average. Don't you dare to say: "Oh, I can countersteer like god - in principle - but sometimes I just need to rest and leave it to the electronics."

I can already hear some of you saying "What about TCS then?" But don't confuse things here. TCS is not fundamentally ridiculous. A race series might allow or disallow it. The same should go for GT races. At the moment it is (unfortunately) allowed in every race. (Another possible improvement for PD)

Im a high DRA DS4 driver user and I just tested CSA.
On Nurburgring GP i just beat my fastest lap by 1.5 seconds!!!
It should be banned for DRA/S drivers fullstop.

 

[Scaff]

Oh dear, I think you both know very well what I meant by this example.

Don't blame others for the words you used.

I guess I should of used the term ''training wheels on a little bike''. I do apologise.

Thank you, and indeed you should have used different words.

These games already exist. Assetto Corsa or rFactor fro example..... ;-))

None of which ban those driver aids, in fact in AC when set to 'authentic' a good number of cars include them (road and race).

Irrelevant. AC's tyre model might have more variables, but it's still ****.

Its for a differect thread, but I can't agree with that at all, and certainly not in comparison to GTS's model.

 

[zzz_pt]

Im a high DRA DS4 driver user and I just tested CSA.
On Nurburgring GP i just beat my fastest lap by 1.5 seconds!!!
It should be banned for DRA/S drivers fullstop.

well, I tested on the Daily Race B:

CSA: 1:26:973
No CSA: 1:27:025

Same car, same track.

 

[phil_75]

well, I tested on the Daily Race B:

CSA: 1:26:973
No CSA: 1:27:025

Same car, same track.

Daily race C i tested on.
Gr1 at Nurburgring GP
(same car same track tested )

 

[super_gt]

Irrelevant. AC's tyre model might have more variables, but it's still ****.

But still, correcting large slides in Assetto Corsa is relatively easy and the feeling in FFB when the rear starts to slide is also very good.

 

[flamingchariot]

I don't understand why people spend so much time worrying about what aids other people use.

It seems some drivers are going to complain ...regardless. Why is it anyones business how anyone else drives? Concentrate on being a better driver yourself in stead of blaming everything else surely Drive how you like instead of dictating how everyone should drive. Most of all have fun. Stop pretending you know how to design a computer game from scratch or you could do a better job. Sure GT isn't perfect but its always been far superior to all the driving games out there (they always seem arcadey childish or clunky in comparison).Its getting out of hand the amount of whining threads and ignorance on show....

 

[nuu1212]

Im a high DRA DS4 driver user and I just tested CSA.
On Nurburgring GP i just beat my fastest lap by 1.5 seconds!!!

Shiiit, now this thread will achieve the opposite of my intent. Everyone will be using CSA!

 

[ASH32]

Shiiit, now this thread will achieve the opposite of my intent. Everyone will be using CSA!

Good, safer for everyone and definitely a level playing field.

It's not like everyone will find that amount of time either, depends on how much you were off beforehand, controller or wheel will make a difference too.

 

[Stotty]

Its for a differect thread, but I can't agree with that at all, and certainly not in comparison to GTS's model.

AC's tyre model is just **** in a different way to GTS's. But it's still ****.

But still, correcting large slides in Assetto Corsa is relatively easy and the feeling in FFB when the rear starts to slide is also very good.

I can drive like that in GTS easy enough in road cars on comfort tyres (no CSA).

But it's not the way to run fast laps in race cars.

 

[phil_75]

Shiiit, now this thread will achieve the opposite of my intent. Everyone will be using CSA!

I have good news lol.
I just tried beating my time with the Mercedes Gr3 at Nurburgring and i could get within two tenths but couldn't beat it.
Now i feel better.

Its just Gr1 cars i personally get a big gain from.

All is good in the world now.

 

[zzz_pt]

Daily race C i tested on.
Gr1 at Nurburgring GP
(same car same track tested )

My point is that it's not true that CSA makes you faster. Well, maybe half a tenth or a tenth.

1,5sec is simply due to inconsistency. Especially with a Gr.1 around one of the most technical tracks in the game (Nurb GP).

I've tested both CSA on and off around Interlagos and Maggiore (both quite technical) and my times differ by a tenth, max.

 

[Skiddy]

I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote in another thread weeks ago about this topic...

CSA does exist irl. I believe this is Gran Turismo's version of ESC/DSC (Electronic Stability Control or Dynamic Stability Control)... which seems to achieve the same goal as "CSA". This is what CSA seems to be in this game. It isn't a huge advantage btw. At least with a wheel it isn't. In fact, I'm generally faster without Stability Control.

Wrong. There is already an option called ASM, Active stability managenment, besides CSA.

 

[superwally]

The non-linear throttle mapping has a lot to do with why so many people experience uncontrollable snap oversteer in GTS. CSA helps with this.

It's my experience that the worst of the oversteer issues are caused by overdriving turn entry. The wheel is turned more than you realize, and any attempt at getting back on the throttle results in snap oversteer. You can baby the pedal, but you will be slow.

I was watching laps by the fastest drivers and couldn't understand how they could go back to half throttle so quickly midcorner without oversteering, and then to full throttle sooner than I could manage. Turns out they were doing a much better job than I was getting the car turned into the corners without sliding the front tires at all. Less steering angle, more neutral midcorner behavior, quicker and more stable turn exits, much faster lap times.

I have no issue with it. Not currently using it, just a personal preference for now.

 

[_ApexPredator]

who's to say the game wouldn't decide you used TC when you didn't. Also when does it determine this because you can change things like that during the race, if it's only before the race starts then that's an exploit opportunity right there, ok this is not the case with some things, like the CSA assist but it is with other aids. Also what about the guys (me included) who set qualifying times with it on, should that matter or is that actually a bigger issue than using the aids in the race?

Can't comment on your clean race / penalty point; not without a replay.

"who's to say the game wouldn't decide you used TC when you didn't."
- True, there could be bugs. Can't really comment on hypothetical bugs for a hypothetical suggestion but like I said above, this would be very different to the penalty system which is far more fallible. Code-wise this would be a lot simpler (the aid is off or it's on).

- "Also when does it determine this because you can change things like that during the race"
These are valid design questions. I'd say once you enter qualifying, the settings that cannot be changed during the race shall be locked for the race, and you take the +/- %DR from there.

- I wouldn't want TCS use to affect %DR, what other aids can be adjusted on the fly? Just that one isn't it? I was mainly thinking of CSA, ASM, possibly ABS, if only to reward drivers for running it off - wouldn't want to penalise its use.

 

[kjeldsen]

Spring Cleaning

 

[zzz_pt]

The non-linear throttle mapping has a lot to do with why so many people experience uncontrollable snap oversteer in GTS. CSA helps with this.

It's my experience that the worst of the oversteer issues are caused by overdriving turn entry. The wheel is turned more than you realize, and any attempt at getting back on the throttle results in snap oversteer. You can baby the pedal, but you will be slow.

I was watching laps by the fastest drivers and couldn't understand how they could go back to half throttle so quickly midcorner without oversteering, and then to full throttle sooner than I could manage. Turns out they were doing a much better job than I was getting the car turned into the corners without sliding the front tires at all. Less steering angle, more neutral midcorner behavior, quicker and more stable turn exits, much faster lap times.

I have no issue with it. Not currently using it, just a personal preference for now.

Oh and there's that. How could I forget it.

Meanwhile set a personal best without CSA around Maggiore West.