Why CSA is just ridiculous and should be banned for wheels

[lancia delta hf]

A factory road going Prius has ABS in this day an age, so at what point should ABS not be allowed on any modern production car?

GT4s ( which is what GRP4 is supposed to be ) do not have TC not ABS.

On your own? I don’t get that logic honestly. I may turn on TCS but my pace will be affected by my lines and braking points/throttle inputs...

When you use TCS, what you want to avoid is to have it kick in and kill your speed. You still need to be driving your car smartly...

It’s going to help with weird car movements. (I call them “****roen” moments in the Citroën Gr.3)

The point is there should be a level, or daily races in sport mode, where people that don't use driving aids can race. And where people that do use driving aids can aim to challenge themselves. Thus it makes sense that GRP4 cars have them prohibited otherwise why add 2 groups that are virtually the same ( ok I know why, to inflate the car list easier ) car?

 

[Stotty]

GTS without ABS is virtually undrivable.

It's certainly not enjoyable.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Whilst I agree with this. TC and ABS should be prohibited in GRP.4 sport mode races.

GT4s ( which is what GRP4 is supposed to be ) do not have TC not ABS.

I was responding to what YOUR original post stated. Need to make up your mind one way or the other it seems.

 

[BSDShoes]

GTS without ABS is virtually undrivable.

It's certainly not enjoyable.

^ this, I went quite a while without ABS and it was a lot more trouble than it should be.

 

[Scaff]

Whilst I agree with this. TC and ABS should be prohibited in GRP.4 sport mode races. Otherwise what is the point of having GT3 & GT4 knock offs? There should be a level where you have to do it on your own.

I agree, but to my mind GTS is doing all it can to be accessible rather than being as realistic as possible.

Keep in mind that my post was in reply to a claim that race car TC was not driver adjustable, I was simply using GT3 TC systems as an example of that not being the case.

However one of the issues (as has already been said) is that GTS without ABS is far more difficult than it should be.

A factory road going Prius has ABS in this day an age, so at what point should ABS not be allowed on any modern production car?

Umm he was talking about GT4 spec cars, which do not have ABS or TC

 

[lancia delta hf]

I was responding to what YOUR original post stated. Need to make up your mind one way or the other it seems.

What is unclear? They both point in the same direction.

 

[Stotty]

Not only is the game virtually unplayable without ABS, but ABS is far more of an 'unreal' assist than CSA.

Sure, ABS exits in real life, but the way ABS works in GTS (and previous versions of the game) is far from how ABS works in real life. In GT, ABS acts as a massive stability control... you can brake at 100mph plus, whilst turning sharply and the car remains completely stable throughout the maneuver.

ABS in real life cannot control the massive lateral weight transfers and subsequent lateral tyre loads that doing this would cause.

By far the most unrealistic aid in the game.

 

[Voodoovaj]

GT4s ( which is what GRP4 is supposed to be ) do not have TC not ABS.

The point is there should be a level, or daily races in sport mode, where people that don't use driving aids can race. And where people that do use driving aids can aim to challenge themselves. Thus it makes sense that GRP4 cars have them prohibited otherwise why add 2 groups that are virtually the same ( ok I know why, to inflate the car list easier ) car?

I'm totally not following...So, you think that Gr3 and Gr4 are virtually identical? Do you mean aside from the horsepower, downforce, grip, and pretty much everything else about the car aside from the body? I don't know about your game, but in my game they do not drive even close to the same.

Reading through the thread, it seems the biggest impact CSA has is reduced fatigue on the driver.

But, again, I don't understand the argument of this thread. It's available. If it makes YOU faster, use it. If the problem is that others use it, and that's the excuse for losing, again, use it and level the playing field. If it makes using the wheel easier, use it. What's the problem?

If there is something that allows you an advantage, use it. Who cares?

I find it a disadvantage. CSA is a disadvantage for me because I react at the same time as the CSA, so there's over correction. If I try to not react, I don't like the amount of correction. Ergo, I don't use CSA and I don't begrudge others for using it. As far as I can tell, it has no impact on my corner speed or my lines.

 

[NosOsH]

I think any aid that is factory should be allowed.
Abs has been on all cars since the late 80s basically. I use it always only tried weak to see if its faster or not. Maybe marginally on some cars.

Traction control has been alot of race cars since 2000. I choose not to because i enjoy the challenge and used drift every corner in any car other than full on race cars. Until gts.

ASM i think is mostly on road going high tech (QUATTRO) and now most modern road going cars. Bleh...

CSA only recently popularized in rc "Basher" level cars Horizon and Traxxas.
Bleh..

Anything under the rules is allowed tho so if it makes you faster it is what it is.

Maybe i just feel it should slow you down just a LITTLE bit more than it does now. And reward a little more for not using them, like most other games.

 

[NosOsH]

Pretty sure how tcs works on the real 488 GTB is throttle max potential is directly tied to how straight the wheels are. So if you are turning hard or conter steering the throttle will only give so much power to the engine.

 

[Shottah072]

I dont use it and i can get top 10 times and win races without it. I dont really mind others using it, its in the game so cant really blame them. It doenst make any capable driver faster over 1 lap but it often does over 10 laps because it gets easier to maintain consistency. So i might be putting myself at a slight disadvantage during a race by not using CSA. But i just dont like the feel of CSA when it kicks in and it makes the cars dull and boring to drive to me. Fighting the car is as much part of the fun and racing to me as fighting other drivers. So i'd rather keep that element then making it easier with CSA, even if that means i might lose a little time over a race distance.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I think any aid that is factory should be allowed.
Abs has been on all cars since the late 80s basically. I use it always only tried weak to see if its faster or not. Maybe marginally on some cars.

Traction control has been alot of race cars since 2000. I choose not to because i enjoy the challenge and used drift every corner in any car other than full on race cars. Until gts.

ASM i think is mostly on road going high tech (QUATTRO) and now most modern road going cars. Bleh...

CSA only recently popularized in rc "Basher" level cars Horizon and Traxxas.
Bleh..

Anything under the rules is allowed tho so if it makes you faster it is what it is.

Maybe i just feel it should slow you down just a LITTLE bit more than it does now. And reward a little more for not using them, like most other games.

I agree with you, but this delves into a different realm of driver aids.

The game has an ABS and TC system that is for the game's purposes. The game does not have ABS, TCS, and ASM that are accurate to the real world because every car has a different system implemented in it for different applications.

ABS alone is widely variable. ABS for road use from the 80's and ABS for road use now is very different, and race ABS different still. Many of the cars are designed with the system in place.

This is similar to a fighter pilot saying "turn off the flight computers because I want to fly this myself"... The result is that the plane won't fly at all.

All we can really discuss is the merits of the game PLAYER aids. The rest is built into the car.

Does anyone here genuinely believe they could get behind the wheel of a LeMans prototype and drive it somewhat competently with a DS4 controller?

 

[QTheRacer_31]

GT4s ( which is what GRP4 is supposed to be ) do not have TC not ABS.

The point is there should be a level, or daily races in sport mode, where people that don't use driving aids can race. And where people that do use driving aids can aim to challenge themselves. Thus it makes sense that GRP4 cars have them prohibited otherwise why add 2 groups that are virtually the same ( ok I know why, to inflate the car list easier ) car?

Because Gr.4 and Gr.3 are extremely different. All Gr.3 cars are RWD but you get a mix of FWD, AWD and RWD in Gr.4 (based on the N car it was made from). You don’t really need TCS in Gr.4 anyway as most of them are relatively boringly stable

ABS is a must. Weak feels weird even with a brake mod so I keep it at default.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Umm he was talking about GT4 spec cars, which do not have ABS or TC

I would say the "intent" of the game would be to emulate the the FIA GT3 and GT4 rules which not only have large differences in the cars but both classes do allow ABS brakes.

I do not see the game trying to make GR 4 some sort of obscure regional "spec" class or amature club racing class with more restrictive rules that they forgot to put such rules in place.

The following is a description about the two classes taken from an online article. The specs listed at 11.2 onward were taken from the FIA tech and rules manual and clearly shows the ABS is legal within the GT4 class.


GT4
The GT4 class was created to support the GT3 class with a true low tech amateur sports car series. The GT4 class consists of cars that are much closer to the road cars they are based on over than the other classes featured here. GT4 cars are often referred to as "Track Day" cars, as they are at price points that make them very accessible to gentleman drivers who want racing experience. The GT4 class is often seen accompanying GT3 classes in series around the globe. You'll also see GT4 class cars compete in single make series.

Cars are adjusted to have an almost identical performance level so that driver skill is highlighted, and once a car has been homologated it cannot be modified. This prevents a war of developmental cost increases, allowing the series to keep it a true amateur series.


GT4 European Series Technical Regulations for GT4 Grand Touring Cars

11.2 Anti-lock braking and power braking For cars fitted with anti-lock and/or automatically variable power braking systems, the SRO DUTCH GT Technical Delegate may at any time oblige the competitor to use the reference unit registered with the SRO Motorsports Group by the manufacturer or tuner.

 

[vvise]

CSA gives my G29 the feedback i feel i should have. Without it loosing traction has almost no warning or feel. I'm not ashamed to admit it makes me faster.

 

[zzz_pt]

Went to the Americas to try and set top10 laps.

Gr.1 only with ABS
1:39:896 (top2)

Gr.4 with ABS + CSA
1:26:756 (top1, but still slower than my European time without CSA)

Did 2 full laps on each combo.

Just throwing data in here. The more I try CSA or non CSA the more I get convinced it doesn't make me faster, only more chilled, which is good sometimes.

 

[QTheRacer_31]

Went to the Americas to try and set top10 laps.

Gr.1 only with ABS
1:39:896 (top2)

Gr.4 with ABS + CSA
1:26:756 (top1, but still slower than my European time without CSA)

Did 2 full laps on each combo.

Just throwing data in here. The more I try CSA or non CSA the more I get convinced it doesn't make me faster, only more chilled, which is good sometimes.

Spoiling our party... It’s partly my fault haha!!!

Good job! What’s your EU time without CSA?

 

[Scaff]

I would say the "intent" of the game would be to emulate the the FIA GT3 and GT4 rules which not only have large differences in the cars but both classes do allow ABS brakes.

I do not see the game trying to make GR 4 some sort of obscure regional "spec" class or amature club racing class with more restrictive rules that they forgot to put such rules in place.

The following is a description about the two classes taken from an online article. The specs listed at 11.2 onward were taken from the FIA tech and rules manual and clearly shows the ABS is legal within the GT4 class.


GT4
The GT4 class was created to support the GT3 class with a true low tech amateur sports car series. The GT4 class consists of cars that are much closer to the road cars they are based on over than the other classes featured here. GT4 cars are often referred to as "Track Day" cars, as they are at price points that make them very accessible to gentleman drivers who want racing experience. The GT4 class is often seen accompanying GT3 classes in series around the globe. You'll also see GT4 class cars compete in single make series.

Cars are adjusted to have an almost identical performance level so that driver skill is highlighted, and once a car has been homologated it cannot be modified. This prevents a war of developmental cost increases, allowing the series to keep it a true amateur series.


GT4 European Series Technical Regulations for GT4 Grand Touring Cars

11.2 Anti-lock braking and power braking For cars fitted with anti-lock and/or automatically variable power braking systems, the SRO DUTCH GT Technical Delegate may at any time oblige the competitor to use the reference unit registered with the SRO Motorsports Group by the manufacturer or tuner.

You may want to check my further reply in regard to GTS and how close it is to real world classes (as in its not).

In regard to real world GT4 cars, you are correct (and my bad) that they are permitted, however they have to run the road car ABS system if they wish too, its not a popular option to do so (some series may mandate it) as race spec ABS (as used in GT3) and road car systems differ in set-up and intervention levels to a significant degree.

 

[Amaru]

CSA and my OWN personal experiences with it:

- started playing GTS closed beta from day 1 it got released in EU
- played without any assists (abs weak during closed beta as this suited my driving style more than abs default).

Full game release day:
- started playing without assists just like in the beta.
- enjoying GTS campaign/daily races until I entered a GR3 car and noticed they handled different from the beta (they felt a lot more loose at the rear, almost as if the rear tyres were located on ice in stead of tarmac/asphalt).

--- at this point I activated/started to use CSA.

- I used CSA on most +500bhp cars until update 1.10
- update 1.10 altered something, having CSA active on any car would make any car behave unnatural (imho) and it would behave against its own driving characteristics.
- after update 1.10, and even 1.11 more recently, driving without any assists (besides abs) feels a lot better than having CSA active, I prefer driving without CSA so much now that CSA slows me down because it does not feel natural to me.

Does CSA make people with a wheel faster? It can, but only if it suits your driving style... if it does not suit your driving style, CSA will end up costing you laptime.

Example: high speed uphill S-section on Dragon Trail; my apex speed and sector time is a lot better with CSA turned off, 0.5-1s easily. The only reason imho for this is because the CSA-assist does not suit my driving style since update 1.10

Imho,PD needs to delete the CSA option and re-introduce factory suspension kits on every non-race car. These annoying racing suspension kits are ruining every single roadcar's experience/behavior. There isn't a single road car in GTS that has a factory suspension as we used to have them in previous GT-titles, for me personally this is the biggest flaw in GTS.

Edit: there might be some typos in this post (writing on a small smartphone ain't very handy ).

 

[SavageEvil]

I don't think CSA is unrealistic in what is sounds like it's doing, it sounds suspiciously like CBC. PD could clarify on it if they'd just tell us what it's replicating. I vote CBC by default. The following quote came from wikipaedia on ABS systems, not my words at all.

"Modern electronic stability control systems are an evolution of the ABS concept. Here, a minimum of two additional sensors are added to help the system work: these are a steering wheel angle sensor, and a gyroscopic sensor. The theory of operation is simple: when the gyroscopic sensor detects that the direction taken by the car does not coincide with what the steering wheel sensor reports, the ESC software will brake the necessary individual wheel(s) (up to three with the most sophisticated systems), so that the vehicle goes the way the driver intends. The steering wheel sensor also helps in the operation of Cornering Brake Control (CBC), since this will tell the ABS that wheels on the inside of the curve should brake more than wheels on the outside, and by how much." Hmmm, sounds like CSA to me.

Just a little Googling got me the information I was looking for in this fiasco, although I have no experience with CSA and I use a DS4, I haven't really been tempted to try it but I think I'll definitely give it a test later this week sometime to see if it helps me increase in consistency. If it feels like it makes sense to use than not use, I'll use it, my TCS settings vary depending on course, tire condition and track conditions I always tweak on the fly as the race wears on.

Off Topic but slightly related. PD really should have cars, especially the older cars in their complete unmolested forms. I feel this is a must for those of us who want to experience these cars as they were originally, it can be done and should be done at least have an original setting sheet that allows this PD. I hope PD does delve back into driving as they once had, really open up and embrace the surreal underlying differences especially those brought on by time. Also include those old rubber tires too for posterity sake.

 

[JacksHerer]

I've started driving without ABS in the 330 P4 in PSVR, it's certainly doable with pedals and makes the AI slightly more competitive.

I do wonder if there was an electronic aid to switch on to make drifting easy, how many people would switch it on vs actually trying to learn to drift.

 

[Ginger yido]

I’ve only just started to use this after it being recommended for the ring.

I improved my time from 6.36 to a 6.35. With TC off I guess it gives a slight advantage in some areas but it’s not a massive advantage. It’s still easy to spin out compared to having traction on

And in fairness when your trying to achieve times that are pushing you to you limits, I’d say go for whatever makes the experience more enjoyable for you. RL you do have the advantage of being able feel the car loosing traction through you backside rather the relying on visual & audio cues.

 

[QTheRacer_31]

I've started driving without ABS in the 330 P4 in PSVR, it's certainly doable with pedals and makes the AI slightly more competitive.

I do wonder if there was an electronic aid to switch on to make drifting easy, how many people would switch it on vs actually trying to learn to drift.

The AI in VR is a joke haha But I feel everything is easier in VR as you really get the feel of the car. Once you get used to it, you can set similar lap times as in non-VR modes. Just a shame you can’t change the settings in car and I’m still waiting for Time Trial.

 

[DriftMethod]

I am just ridiculing the serious, even top notch drivers that use CSA.
I think that ridicule is stronger than any argument here.

Why do you want to ridicule people?

We can all have our opinions, but I'm sure you can find a more constructive way to voice your opinion.

 

[Lazybike]

I don't get this...it's not a "real" assist so shouldn't be used, in real life Gr3 cars lap Brands in 1:24, Monza in 1:49 and Nurburg in 1:56...Times regularly matched by old fellas sat in their pants and socks in bedrooms!

 

[PJTierney]

Not only is the game virtually unplayable without ABS, but ABS is far more of an 'unreal' assist than CSA.

Sure, ABS exits in real life, but the way ABS works in GTS (and previous versions of the game) is far from how ABS works in real life. In GT, ABS acts as a massive stability control... you can brake at 100mph plus, whilst turning sharply and the car remains completely stable throughout the maneuver.

ABS in real life cannot control the massive lateral weight transfers and subsequent lateral tyre loads that doing this would cause.

By far the most unrealistic aid in the game.

Is there a preferred setting amongst the faster drivers?

I’ve been using Mild ABS since Closed Beta but have been thinking about Default recently and if it may be better for FWD cars.

 

[flamingchariot]

So boys automatically know how to ride a bike?

Next time leave the casual sexism at the door.

Some of us weren't allowed stabilisers we had to fall off until we didn't... like life really was a daft analogy and why girls most boys I see ride girls bikes (they might be stolen) but....

Isn't it just to make it easier to drive with DS4? I never have driving aids on with a wheel its pointless you can scandinavian flick, counter steer and heel toe on the pedals - all things that you can't do on the controller. Plus the moderation you have with the throttle brake /steering is 10 times better at least. The rest is down to being smooth as a 🤬 every lap. More likely to recover from a cock up with a wheel too.

 

[Macboyilija]

To all the people who are shouting “what does it matter if someone else has all the aids on” you clearly dont understand that some people only can experience true sportmanship when all settings are equal to all drivers.

This has nothing to do with being elitist. When you play single player against AI do whatever you want. But if you play with all aids on and with a controller you are definitely not in the same league as people who do. Nothing wrong with that. You could be a lot faster. But thats not the point. The point is equality as a basis.

Thats why I think there should be no aids allowed in CB/SB S modes. And also no controllers. To all they have the right to disagree but to me this is the basis of sport mode. Only the top when you drive without help.

I am in CB B so dont worry that I think myself being elitist because I am far away from the top. But if I reach it one day I want to have done it with no help.

Here a copy of my post in another thread what the reason is for my feeling and why to me it matters what others are using:

“But to me it is definitely no fun when I am working my ass of with a RWD car in sport mode, behind me is someone driving pretty close to me. I am braking on time for the corner. He is not hitting me. Keep focus in the corner keep up te speed and look at corner exit. When I see the exit I am stepping on the gas. But slowly. Since if I push the gas too hard my car will slip. So the adrenaline is there ! The fun is there ! Because I know if I step too much on the gas I will lose the grip and car. And if I know the car behind me is working as hard as me, that makes all the fun !!

But if behind me the car is just easily following me and full stepping on the gas because TCS is on and some other help tools ? It could be fun to him. But to me it is no fun because I dont know if the guy behind me is having the same difficulties as me because of driving aids.”

This is the reason why it does matter for some drivers to have more fun and excitement.

 

[flamingchariot]

The only ban should be on the moaners who keep wanting things banned because they don't like it or can't keep up with people who are better. Stop boring people with your hissy fits and grow up - it's a game for god sake.

Amidst the clamour of 🤬 the truth shines through. Finally someone else with sanity

 

[JacksHerer]

GT Sport is for the masses, people can play it like they are playing GTA online racing, or play it like they are playing iracing.

I often don't really appreciate a race until afterwards, when I watch the replay and see who I was really racing against.

@Macboyilija hit the nail on the head "So the adrenaline is there ! The fun is there ! Because I know if I step too much on the gas I will lose the grip and car. And if I know the car behind me is working as hard as me, that makes all the fun !!"