Will GT7 Get Left behind when Forza Motorsports 8 hits the Market?

[McLaren]

If you look at all the complaints and wish lists PD CLEARLY does not give a damn about the 'masses'.

The problem here is that the complaints & wish lists are probably not as noticeable as we might assume.

For reference, in the online scape, you would think the masses have complained to T10 about their re-used car models, but T10 doesn't "give a damn", either. However, as @MagpieRacer & @PJTierney pointed out last month in the Forza section, the percentage of actual players complaining is probably less than 1%.

A minority of people will notice. The same minority complaining about them. It simply isn't worth the investment of money or time to do it for the <1% who care.

For context 1% of the Forza Horizon 5 player base is 330,000 people.

I’ve not seen 330,000 people even talk about Forza, let alone complain about a singular issue.

I imagine Gran Turismo is in a similar boat where the more repeated requests/complaints are still a fraction of what PD is actually seeing or deciding whether or not to act on.

 

[AlfaDave]

It's because FM has hidden controller assists that you can not disable, much like GT. It's what they build in so most anyone can pick it up and play with very little issue. Pcars2 definitely did not have that whatsoever. Not so sure about Assetto Corsa as I havent picked it up yet, but because I just bought a wheel I plan to soon.


Never said that.

I always run simulation steering option which is the setting for wheels.
"Simulation is more for wheel players and normal is better for controller users. Sim steering tends to give more oversteer than normal steering."
If you run it in default yeah it stops over rotation, and also fish tails. But on SIM steering setting it's not forgiving at all.

Direct from forza Motorsport support team on their forum.
"NORMAL: gives the driver full control over steering but dampens certain physical effects to make driving easier.
SIMULATION: eliminates any damping and steering speed assistance for a more realistic effect, making counter-steering much quicker. NOTE: This mode is difficult with a controller and is recommended for advanced drivers."
The only assist I run is ABS as gamepad trigger sensitivity takes a while to feel for ABS off, only been playing it a day so far.

 

[ImaRobot]

I always run simulation steering option which is the setting for wheels.
"Simulation is more for wheel players and normal is better for controller users. Sim steering tends to give more oversteer than normal steering."
If you run it in default yeah it stops over rotation, and also fish tails. But on SIM steering setting it's not forgiving at all.

There is no way to entirely turn off the assists, simulation steering is helpful, but there are still steering dampers for pad users. It'll never be a true 1:1 steering ratio like you get in wheels. I use simulation steering too and was still able to do the tapping of the joystick to turn rather than being smooth, that shouldn't be the case if it was a true 1:1 input.

 

[Dave A]

The problem here is that the complaints & wish lists are probably not as noticeable as we might assume.

For reference, in the online scape, you would think the masses have complained to T10 about their re-used car models, but T10 doesn't "give a damn", either. However, as @MagpieRacer & @PJTierney pointed out last month in the Forza section, the percentage of actual players complaining is probably less than 1%.



I imagine Gran Turismo is in a similar boat where the more repeated requests/complaints are still a fraction of what PD is actually seeing or deciding whether or not to act on.

This is very true, the masses simply don't comment at all or they do with a view of the game that is much less detailed and critical eye. Most people don't care about the front bumper being slighty wrong on a car model and wouldn't be able to tell you if a games physics when understeering in a car with an LSD feels wrong.

I always run simulation steering option which is the setting for wheels.
"Simulation is more for wheel players and normal is better for controller users. Sim steering tends to give more oversteer than normal steering."
If you run it in default yeah it stops over rotation, and also fish tails. But on SIM steering setting it's not forgiving at all.

Direct from forza Motorsport support team on their forum.
"NORMAL: gives the driver full control over steering but dampens certain physical effects to make driving easier.
SIMULATION: eliminates any damping and steering speed assistance for a more realistic effect, making counter-steering much quicker. NOTE: This mode is difficult with a controller and is recommended for advanced drivers."

That setting is better, but if you use a pad you will still get hidden assists that switch off for wheel users (or I'd expect them too). The steering inputs are smoothed out for example so sudden flicks of the steering on a pad will not result in the wheel going full lock as it would if you did that with a wheel (or at least it should). But whatever the peripheral and whatrever the setitng, there are assists in the background to make the game more accessible. They just vary from one type of peripheral to the other.

 

[Veinz]

Couldn't have said it better myself.
I used to always beat most wheel racers on Forza in the top few hundred on laptimes with a gamepad(bog stock one too) always finishing MP races in podium places. I have also had my fair share of time with Assetto Corsa, Project Cars(I configured my gamepad to work correctly on this as it was dog **** out the box).
FM is better than both of those in my opinion.

Wheels aren’t even competitive in previous FM games. This is a game for controller.

 

[Mafio]

This is very true, the masses simply don't comment at all or they do with a view of the game that is much less detailed and critical eye. Most people don't care about the front bumper being slighty wrong on a car model and wouldn't be able to tell you if a games physics when understeering in a car with an LSD feels wrong.

Right, with that being said, they have to pay some attention to forums and social media. Other than all those in-game surveys(please tell me I'm not the only one getting these 😅), how else are they going to get feedback from the people that purchase the game?

 

[AlfaDave]

There is no way to entirely turn off the assists, simulation steering is helpful, but there are still steering dampers for pad users. It'll never be a true 1:1 steering ratio like you get in wheels. I use simulation steering too and was still able to do the tapping of the joystick to turn rather than being smooth, that shouldn't be the case if it was a true 1:1 input.

Turn 10 own support staff actually state this "SIMULATION: eliminates any damping and steering speed assistance for a more realistic effect, making counter-steering much quicker. NOTE: This mode is difficult with a controller and is recommended for advanced drivers."

https://support.forzamotorsport.net/hc/en-us/articles/20964254277267-Forza-Motorsport-Accessibility-Support

 

[ImaRobot]

Right, with that being said, they have to pay some attention to forums and social media. Other than all those in-game surveys(please tell me I'm not the only one getting these 😅), how else are they going to get feedback from the people that purchase the game?

There was a time where something like that was happening here, I think there was some sort of representative or something? I can't recall exactly and I can be entirely wrong, but that died extremely quick. This forum is likely known, but I doubt they're gathering information by the bucketloads for what they need to do. We are loud, sure, but we just represent the tiniest bit of the community. What other outlets they have, I'm not exactly sure. They're likely to take more statistics from things in game rather than anywhere else.

Turn 10 own support staff actually state this "SIMULATION: eliminates any damping and steering speed assistance for a more realistic effect, making counter-steering much quicker. NOTE: This mode is difficult with a controller and is recommended for advanced drivers."

https://support.forzamotorsport.net/hc/en-us/articles/20964254277267-Forza-Motorsport-Accessibility-Support

Game developers have said lots of things. It doesn't mean that its 100% undisputable. There's still dampers in the steering input, if not, I shouldn't be able to tap-joy stick drive at times on Forza flying from 100% lock to 0 steering input. That should be completely detrimental to any kind of controllability in any car. I'm not saying that's how I'd drive constantly, but that I'm able to achieve that.

EDIT: I want to add that I have not played the new Forza, so maybe it is different now. But it's never been the case for any other Forza I've played.

 

[nestarion]

Turn 10 own support staff actually state this "SIMULATION: eliminates any damping and steering speed assistance for a more realistic effect, making counter-steering much quicker. NOTE: This mode is difficult with a controller and is recommended for advanced drivers."

https://support.forzamotorsport.net/hc/en-us/articles/20964254277267-Forza-Motorsport-Accessibility-Support

There is a invisible assist even in simulation mode which benefits controller users.

 

[Dave A]

Right, with that being said, they have to pay some attention to forums and social media. Other than all those in-game surveys(please tell me I'm not the only one getting these 😅), how else are they going to get feedback from the people that purchase the game?

These days it's mostly done by metrics. They decide what users like and dislike by raw usage data. Of course, they will track certain things, the review bombing of GT7 early on in it's life prompted a reaction, albeit, not a big one. But raw metric data is usually king. In game surveys tend to carry more weight than forums too.

No it's all direct, a quick flick of the stick gives full steering lock, you really notice it when you get a fishtail going on and you over compensate the opposite lock, wiggle wiggle spin. Lol

No, that's just false. The inputs are smoothed on a pad. It woud literally be almost unplayable on a pad otherwise, if moving a thumb stick a couple of cm was equal to turning a wheel 900 degrees with 1:1 linearity on the input you would absolutely know. And you'd likely hate it. Just because you can lose control doesn't mean that input smoothing isn't there. It 100% is.

 

[Veinz]

Top times on leaderboards are always wheel racers. So that's incorrect.

The leaderboards in FM7 don't show what input people use from what I've seen. I was a hot lapper in the previous games, no one who chased top times used a wheel because wheel support was awful. Everyone used controllers in all the large private leagues like TORA as well, even the official esports used controllers.

 

[AlfaDave]

There was a time where something like that was happening here, I think there was some sort of representative or something? I can't recall exactly and I can be entirely wrong, but that died extremely quick. This forum is likely known, but I doubt they're gathering information by the bucketloads for what they need to do. We are loud, sure, but we just represent the tiniest bit of the community. What other outlets they have, I'm not exactly sure. They're likely to take more statistics from things in game rather than anywhere else.


Game developers have said lots of things. It doesn't mean that its 100% undisputable. There's still dampers in the steering input, if not, I shouldn't be able to tap-joy stick drive at times on Forza as flying from 100% lock to 0 steering input. That should be completely detrimental to any kind of controllability in any car. I'm not saying that's how I'd drive constantly, but that I'm able to achieve that.

EDIT: I want to add that I have not played the new Forza, so maybe it is different now. But it's never been the case for any other Forza I've played.

Yeah like I said it's a big jump in physics, I think they just equate the linear input float value into the car controller script, so no matter what device used it still inputs a float value. Sorry that techy, but I suspect it's identical input as wheel user's.

There is a counter on the input increasing the degree to simulate the time it takes to turn a racing wheel/car wheel.
Otherwise a gamepad would be able to simulate a 360 wheel turn in split seconds which in itself would not be realistic.

It is a fair bit different in feel than fm7 with SIM steering.

 

[ImaRobot]

Yeah like I said it's a big jump in physics, I think they just equate the linear input float value into the car controller script, so no matter what device used it still inputs a float value. Sorry that techy, but I suspect it's identical input as wheel user's.

But simulation steering would not be able to be like a wheel, otherwise, it just wouldn't work that well or be that fun at all. That's why those hidden dampers are there. I'll be able to test it out myself when Forza releases, either way.

There is a counter on the input increasing the degree to simulate the time it takes to turn a racing wheel/car wheel.
Otherwise a gamepad would be able to simulate a 360 wheel turn in split seconds which in itself would not be realistic.

That is literally the damper that's we've been talking about, the hidden assist. So like everyone's been saying, and how you just said yourself, there are hidden assists that are not able to be removed from pad users. You also can't steer past the grip threshold like you can with a wheel.

 

[AlfaDave]

That's not relevant to the point he's making. Simulation mode or not, there are hidden assists that you cannot turn off. Especially for pad users. The game would be nigh on unplayable without them.

It's not an assist, technically. An assist either does something for you that you didn't do or restricts something you have done.
This just simulates the turning time of a wheel as we are using a small stick with less than 90 degree movement, the movement will be 4x slower in the counter.

It's the reason they can say it's not an assist.
To put it into perspective there is a fire limit on gun games, yet the trigger is held on as the gamepad doesn't have any mechanism of bullet loading, so they simulate a delay.

 

[ImaRobot]

It's not an assist, technically. An assist either does something for you that you didn't do or restricts something you have done.

By what you said, its doing exactly that. It's slowing an input for you, that you aren't controlling in any way shape or form. That you have no say on if it does it or not.

To put it into perspective there is a fire limit on gun games, yet the trigger is held on as the gamepad doesn't have any mechanism of bullet loading, so they simulate a delay.

This example is not a good comparison at all, its unrelatable. A better example of this assist is if you're free drawing on a touch pad, and you make a pretty crappy yet discernable circle, and the application makes a complete circle for you instead. It smooths it out and makes a complete perfect circle for you because it'll be very hard, to impossible, to get it exact without help.

 

[Dave A]

It's not an assist, technically. An assist either does something for you that you didn't do or restricts something you have done.
This just simulates the turning time of a wheel as we are using a small stick with less than 90 degree movement, the movement will be 4x slower in the counter.

It's the reason they can say it's not an assist.
To put it into perspective there is a fire limit on gun games, yet the trigger is held on as the gamepad doesn't have any mechanism of bullet loading, so they simulate a delay.

I'm sure we can agree that an assist, well, it assists you. It does something for you that works in addiiton to or directly with your manual input in order to assist you, the player.

Nit only does this meet that definition, it meets the very definition you yourself have used. Though your interpretation is not all that different to mine except for the fact it only implies assistance whereas some games have systems that actively work against the player based on their inputs.

 

[AlfaDave]

I'm sure we can agree that an assist, well, it assists you. It does something for you that works in addiiton to or directly with your manual input in order to assist you, the player.

Nit only does this meet that definition, it meets the very definition you yourself have used. Though your interpretation is not all that different to mine except for the fact it only implies assistance whereas some games have systems that actively work against the player based on their inputs.

This is where I will disagree with both you and robot due to the fact your racing wheel converts a rotational movement and turns that into a float value which it sends directly to the game. You can adjust the rotation to amount of turn ratio with your wheel thus it is not direct input output values.
Basically the not technical assist you keep talking about happening in the game software is directly happening in your racing wheels software onboard.
I hate getting technical as many don't understand the software in hardware devices.

 

[Dave A]

This is where I will disagree with both you and robot due to the fact your racing wheel converts a rotational movement and turns that into a float value which it sends directly to the game. You can adjust the rotation to amount of turn ratio with your wheel thus it is not direct input output values.
Basically the not technical assist you keep talking about happening in the game software is directly happening in your racing wheels software onboard.
I hate getting technical as many don't understand the software in hardware devices.

I know exactly what it is, and it's an assist. It doesn't matter how technical you want to go, be my guest, the input smoothing is there to assist the player. It stops the wheels from going full lock in a split second when using a pad in order to assist pad players in being able to control the cars.

FTAOD I have programmed and released mobile games before. I have also prototyped a physics engine for a 2d top down racing game. It was never implemented in a released product, it was mainly a vanity project, but it worked quite well as long as you didnt exceed certain parameters.

I have also developed and released a CRM/BDM/Workflow management app for my team at work (though I must note that I am not a game designed or programmer by trade, I do accounts and tax advice these days). So please, be as technical as you want to be. You'll find there's no shortage of people on these forums who can follow allong and a few of them work in the industry as a profession not just hobbyist.

 

[AlfaDave]

I know exactly what it is, and it's an assist. It doesn't matter how technocal you want to go, be my guest, the input smoothing is there to assist the player. It stops the wheels from going full lock in a split second when using a pad in order to assist pad players in being able to control the cars.

FTAOD I have programmed and released mobile games before. I have also prototyped a physics engine for a 2d top down racing game. It was never implemented in a released product, it was mainly a vanity project, but it worked quite well as long as you didnt exceed certain parameters.

I have also developed and released a CRM/BDM/Workflow management app for my team at work (though I must note that I am not a game designed or programmer by trade, I do accounts and tax advice these days). So please, be as technical as you want to be. You'll find there's no shortage of people on these forums who can follow allong and a few of them work in the industry as a profession not just hobbyist.

Thus you should know that steering wheels have the software running in them which converts usually hall effect values to a value sent to the hardware a steering wheel is connected too.
That same conversion is happening in Forza for thumb stick's to gradually turn the cars wheels.

I point to the fact every wheel should be identical if the rotation was not being altered by hardware internal software. But all steering wheels require different in game settings there is no universal setting.

I will take it as you have just forgot there is software running inside hardware steering wheels.

What I'm saying in short terms is where do you want your smoothing of input, wheel user's it's directly happening in the software inside their wheel hardware, where as gamepad user's it's happening in the software of the game.

 

[ImaRobot]

Thus you should know that steering wheels have the software running in them which converts usually hall effect values to a value sent to the hardware a steering wheel is connected too.
That same conversion is happening in Forza for thumb stick's to gradually turn the cars wheels.

I point to the fact every wheel should be identical if the rotation was not being altered by hardware internal software. But all steering wheels require different in game settings there is no universal setting.

I will take it as you have just forgot there is software running inside hardware steering wheels.

What I'm saying in short terms is where do you want your smoothing of input, wheel user's it's directly happening in the software inside their wheel hardware, where as gamepad user's it's happening in the software of the game.

Yeah, no offense, but you're flat out wrong on all of this. You've practically laid out the definition of what an assist is, and then just say its not after everything is said and done.

 

[AlfaDave]

Yeah, no offense, but you're flat out wrong on all of this. You've practically laid out the definition of what an assist is, and then just say its not after everything is said and done.

If that's the case then everyone who uses a wheel uses an assist.
Inside the wheel there is software that is converting raw input into an output, software inside the wheel handles this and smooths the value given out. Exactly the same is happening with gamepad input but the smoothing is being handled by Forza by Gt7 by proj cars by Assetto and so on.

If your wheels were giving out raw data values from your rotation then all wheels would be identical.
Forza handling the thumbstick movement and scaling it is exactly the same as your wheel handling the stepping input of the rotation and scaling it to send it out as a smooth value.

I might have got too technical and it's gone flying past. Sorry if I have I'm trying to explain it as well as I can.

 

[Nightwing24]

If that's the case then everyone who uses a wheel uses an assist.
Inside the wheel there is software that is converting raw input into an output, software inside the wheel handles this and smooths the value given out. Exactly the same is happening with gamepad input but the smoothing is being handled by Forza by Gt7 by proj cars by Assetto and so on.

The software you describe here is the conversation from the physical hardware in a wheel to translate to virtual wheel rotation. A wheel has definition points, better wheels have more points, cheaper wheels have less. The software you describe merely translates the signal from the wheel to the game on a 1:1 ratio. What you are attributing to “smoothing” in this case is a translation of taking a wheel with 10 definition articulation points and making it as equal to a wheel with 100 points of definition articulation for the game software.

This is vastly different than software smoothing the actual input. What it’s done at the wheel level it’s cleaning the input but not altering it. What is done at the controller level is on top of the aforementioned translation software, additionally smoothing software removing drastic spikes in control input after translation is occurring because no matter how great you are with a controller on a thumb stick using millimeter movements will never be as smooth and precise as a wheel using 100xs the movement.

This is why controllers will always have built in ASSISTS and wheels don’t

If your wheels were giving out raw data values from your rotation then all wheels would be identical.

Again since wheels have different hardware with different points of articulation, this statement is factually contradictory. A wheel with 10 points of articulation would be far more jerky than one with 100 points of articulating using raw input data. If all cats were dogs we wouldn’t need scratching posts but that also has no point to your argument and is a completely irrelevant statement.

Forza handling the thumbstick movement and scaling it is exactly the same as your wheel handling the stepping input of the rotation and scaling it to send it out as a smooth value.

Again, since it has an additional set of smoothing beyond the input translation from hardware to software, this statement is contradictory to the facts.

I might have got too technical and it's gone flying past. Sorry if I have I'm trying to explain it as well as I can.

You haven’t said anything technical yet to go flying past anyone yet, so no need to worry

 

[RobertHammer]

Irony that FH5 looks waaay better and runs waaay better aswell

 

[Imari]

No, that's just false. The inputs are smoothed on a pad. It woud literally be almost unplayable on a pad otherwise, if moving a thumb stick a couple of cm was equal to turning a wheel 900 degrees with 1:1 linearity on the input you would absolutely know. And you'd likely hate it. Just because you can lose control doesn't mean that input smoothing isn't there. It 100% is.

You're absolutely right.

I remember trying unsmoothed pad inputs very early during the pCARS1 alpha. "Almost unplayable" is exactly what it was. If you were real careful and made the response super non-linear you could almost put a lap together, but the moment the car twitched or you had to try and react to something it was so sensitive that you were immediately in the wall. Hilariously disastrous.

All pad modes need some form of smoothing plus rate and range limiting. "Simulation" mode is just different settings for different pad feel.

 

[TumeK5]

No, that's just false.

When the posts are so misleading they're deleted... 🤔

 

[AlfaDave]

The software you describe here is the conversation from the physical hardware in a wheel to translate to virtual wheel rotation. A wheel has definition points, better wheels have more points, cheaper wheels have less. The software you describe merely translates the signal from the wheel to the game on a 1:1 ratio. What you are attributing to “smoothing” in this case is a translation of taking a wheel with 10 definition articulation points and making it as equal to a wheel with 100 points of definition articulation for the game software.

This is vastly different than software smoothing the actual input. What it’s done at the wheel level it’s cleaning the input but not altering it. What is done at the controller level is on top of the aforementioned translation software, additionally smoothing software removing drastic spikes in control input after translation is occurring because no matter how great you are with a controller on a thumb stick using millimeter movements will never be as smooth and precise as a wheel using 100xs the movement.

This is why controllers will always have built in ASSISTS and wheels don’t

Again since wheels have different hardware with different points of articulation, this statement is factually contradictory. A wheel with 10 points of articulation would be far more jerky than one with 100 points of articulating using raw input data. If all cats were dogs we wouldn’t need scratching posts but that also has no point to your argument and is a completely irrelevant statement.

Again, since it has an additional set of smoothing beyond the input translation from hardware to software, this statement is contradictory to the facts.

You haven’t said anything technical yet to go flying past anyone yet, so no need to worry

Explain wheels with hardware sensitivity modes, there is smoothing happening which alters the user input on a hardware level, not just device sensor spikes.

Wheels without manual multiple sensitivity modes have one default set.

The same sensitivity smoothing is going on for Sim setting on gamepads.

The reason I say this is I have created games where i dealt with binary inputs 0.0 or 1.0 with no numbers between and had to deal with them to match thumbstick input which is 0.0-1.0 and all values between, for this the script controller made will take 1.0 input in the binary button and gradually count up from 0.0 to 1.0 while the button is pressed. This is not assist it is just a leveling tool to allow different devices to act the same. Steering wheels onboard software adjusts user input to match the sensitivity selected(if multiple settings can be switched by a dial on the wheel) or it's default setting.
The software in the hardware takes two last values(articulation points) and and over a very fast counter it moves between those two values.

You're absolutely right.

I remember trying unsmoothed pad inputs very early during the pCARS1 alpha. "Almost unplayable" is exactly what it was. If you were real careful and made the response super non-linear you could almost put a lap together, but the moment the car twitched or you had to try and react to something it was so sensitive that you were immediately in the wall. Hilariously disastrous.

All pad modes need some form of smoothing plus rate and range limiting. "Simulation" mode is just different settings for different pad feel.

This was due to controller calibration as I experienced this and previously commented about playing around with settings for Gamepad, you could change sensitivity and deadzones to make PC1 work well there were also lots of videos about controller calibration settings.

 

[Dave A]

Thus you should know that steering wheels have the software running in them which converts usually hall effect values to a value sent to the hardware a steering wheel is connected too.
That same conversion is happening in Forza for thumb stick's to gradually turn the cars wheels.

I point to the fact every wheel should be identical if the rotation was not being altered by hardware internal software. But all steering wheels require different in game settings there is no universal setting.

I will take it as you have just forgot there is software running inside hardware steering wheels.

What I'm saying in short terms is where do you want your smoothing of input, wheel user's it's directly happening in the software inside their wheel hardware, where as gamepad user's it's happening in the software of the game.

None of this stops input smoothing on a pad which is being handled behind the scenes by the game from being a hidden assist that you cannot turn off. For some unexplainable reason you are trying to drag this matter in to a whole new realm of discussion when there really is no need to do so.

Wheels can provide 1:1 input, pads cannot, at least in most games.

I'm not sure why you are trying to argue black is white here, it's for the betterment of the game that it does this for pad users. But an assist is an assist which is designed to assist, no matter what else you try to justify it as.

 

[AlfaDave]

None of this stops input smoothing on a pad which is being handled behind the scenes by the game from being a hidden assist that you cannot turn off. For some unexplainable reason you are trying to drag this matter in't a whole new realm of discussion when there really is no need to do so.

Wheels can provide 1:1 input, pads cannot, at least in most games.

I'm not sure why you are trying to argue black is white here, it's for the betterment of the game that it does this for pad users. But an assist is an assist which is designed to assist, no matter what else you try to justify it as.

There is input smoothing handled via the software inside the wheels, please read my previous message.

 

[Ande3200]

I have watched some reviews and overall thought for new fm the last couble of days,

My grip with it is that some of older models are still bad but i know that would be the case, its a downside for me, for some it might not be an issue

The other things is car levels not a fan of that, they should at least make sure that you only had to level up a car once so if you bought a duplicate you would not need to go through the progress again, it might sound like a good idea at first but in the longrun it will be problem, and i dont want to unlock the same parts that already been part for franshise for the last decade,

My last complaint is that it seems to be making the same mistake as gt7 short single player campaign just 95 races, i really thought it would be a much longer one,

I rather wait to more updates has come to the game and more features is added back in, it does feel little with a 6 year gap,
The single player however how it works for races seems better than gt7 like grid starts and better ai, until sophy arrives in gt,
But the advantage i have to give gt7 is it has more varity in its single player, forza just include the races, but gt7 also includes things like driving missions and licenses,

Tracks and enviroments looks really good better than gt7 but thats to be expected becouse thats forza strength,
Car models is not at same level as gt7, witch is gran turismo biggest strength,
I have to say i prefer having the most detailed cars over the Tracks, overall both look great, and i feel like the new fm has closer look to gt in its lighting and overall look campared to older titles,

I am going to see how things plays out with updates, if they add new career tours in a good rate i might pick it up spring or summer next year, the amount of cars is more than enough and Tracks is still a decent amount to begin with and by then it will have at least 23 tracks locations


My other reason why i am not buying now is also becouse i cant i dont have an up to date pc or an Xbox series x

 

[AlfaDave]

I have watched some reviews and overall thought for new fm the last couble of days,

My grip with it is that some of older models are still bad but i know that would be the case, its a downside for me, for some it might not be an issue

The other things is car levels not a fan of that, they should at least make sure that you only had to level up a car once so if you bought a duplicate you would not need to go through the progress again, it might sound like a good idea at first but in the longrun it will be problem, and i dont want to unlock the same parts that already been part for franshise for the last decade,

My last complaint is that it seems to be making the same mistake as gt7 short single player campaign just 95 races, i really thought it would be a much longer one,

I rather wait to more updates has come to the game and more features is added back in, it does feel little with a 6 year gap,
The single player however how it works for races seems better than gt7 like grid starts and better ai, until sophy arrives in gt,
But the advantage i have to give gt7 is it has more varity in its single player, forza just include the races, but gt7 also includes things like driving missions and licenses,

Tracks and enviroments looks really good better than gt7 but thats to be expected becouse thats forza strength,
Car models is not at same level as gt7, witch is gran turismo biggest strength,
I have to say i prefer having the most detailed cars over the Tracks, overall both look great, and i feel like the new fm has closer look to gt in its lighting and overall look campared to older titles,

I am going to see how things plays out with updates, if they add new career tours in a good rate i might pick it up spring or summer next year, the amount of cars is more than enough and Tracks is still a decent amount to begin with and by then it will have at least 23 tracks locations


My other reason why i am not buying now is also becouse i cant i dont have an up to date pc or an Xbox series x

I would agree with alot of what you are saying, Forza also lacks the auction house type buying, from the cars I have used so far I can't see much difference in their models compared to the same cars in GT7, I think gt7 uses different lighting compared to FM using more modern lighting tech which makes models show dull in areas but better in others more like real life, I think the car dirtying is a bit fast for keeping the cars looking good as the mucky spots on the models effects the reflection of light and such.

AI races are like racing with real people, I got faked by the AI yesterday it went to my right I went to block and it shifted to the left and then out braked me and blocked my return speed pass back. I'm not a bad racer either I recently went on rivals and got rated 65th in Europe and 108th in the world.

I would suggest a Series S and finding Gamepass unlimited on cd keys type store's, seriously low barrier to entry.