Will GT7 Get Left behind when Forza Motorsports 8 hits the Market?

[Imari]

This was due to controller calibration as I experienced this and previously commented about playing around with settings for Gamepad, you could change sensitivity and deadzones to make PC1 work well there were also lots of videos about controller calibration settings.

No, as I said this was the pCARS1 alpha before they had any filtering or other assistance involved. Any videos you've seen about controller calibration are referring to the released game which was a totally different beast. The final released game was playable with a controller, even if it was still twitchy. It had assistance on controller inputs.

There is input smoothing handled via the software inside the wheels, please read my previous message.

It's not really input smoothing inside the wheels as much as it's noise reduction. Any sensor system has this, including controllers. The intention is to more accurately and consistently output the true position of the wheel rather than variation inherent to mechanical or electronic limitations of the system.

The input smoothing in-game is a different thing with a different intended purpose. It is not intended to make the output value more accurate or consistent, it's intention is specifically to modify that output in a way that reduces or ignores inputs that would result in certain negative in-game outcomes.

You don't seem to understand the difference, either in intended purpose or in function.

 

[AlfaDave]

No, as I said this was the pCARS1 alpha before they had any filtering or other assistance involved. Any videos you've seen about controller calibration are referring to the released game which was a totally different beast. The final released game was playable with a controller, even if it was still twitchy. It had assistance on controller inputs.

It's not really input smoothing inside the wheels as much as it's noise reduction. Any sensor system has this, including controllers. The intention is to more accurately and consistently output the true position of the wheel rather than variation inherent to mechanical or electronic limitations of the system.

The input smoothing in-game is a different thing with a different intended purpose. It is not intended to make the output value more accurate or consistent, it's intention is specifically to modify that output in a way that reduces or ignores inputs that would result in certain negative in-game outcomes.

You don't seem to understand the difference, either in intended purpose or in function.

I'm not disputing there are noise reduction algorithms handled by the wheel software. However there are also Smoothing and sensitivity algorithms happening by the wheels software also which are very very similar to the counters happening for rotation on FM's SIM steering algorithm. It's just a matter of where do you want those smoothing systems to be implemented on the hardwares software(firmware) or via application software.

I played many beta builds back in 2014-2016 I know that there was a huge uproar about the gamepad settings and shortly after there was a major update patch that fixed the gamepad issues.

 

[Dave A]

I'm not disputing there are noise reduction algorithms handled by the wheel software. However there are also Smoothing and sensitivity algorithms happening by the wheels software also which are very very similar to the counters happening for rotation on FM's SIM steering algorithm. It's just a matter of where do you want those smoothing systems to be implemented on the hardwares software(firmware) or via application software.

I played many beta builds back in 2014-2016 I know that there was a huge uproar about the gamepad settings and shortly after there was a major update patch that fixed the gamepad issues.

You've got mechanical and software provided function, mechanical and software provided calibaration and then software provided assists. I think you are conflating some of these together, but your point about wheels potentially having assists is right, you absolutely can have player assists built into a peripheral. Rapid fire functions on game pads for example, player asissts built into the peripheral rather than the game.

But none of this has anything to do with the original discussion, that FM 2023 has built in assists for pad users that you, the player, cannot turn off. What a wheel has or has not got is completely irrelevent.

 

[tankuroded]

The problem here is that the complaints & wish lists are probably not as noticeable as we might assume.

For reference, in the online scape, you would think the masses have complained to T10 about their re-used car models, but T10 doesn't "give a damn", either. However, as @MagpieRacer & @PJTierney pointed out last month in the Forza section, the percentage of actual players complaining is probably less than 1%.



I imagine Gran Turismo is in a similar boat where the more repeated requests/complaints are still a fraction of what PD is actually seeing or deciding whether or not to act on.

Some among those who complain also feel that "people who don't complain are part of the problem". Talk about us-vs-them mentality...

 

[AlfaDave]

You've got mechanical and software provided function, mechanical and software provided calibaration and then software provided assists. I think you are conflating some of these together, but your point about wheels potentially having assists is right, you absolutely can have player assists built into a peripheral. Rapid fire functions on game pads for example, player asissts built into the peripheral rather than the game.

But none of this has anything to do with the original discussion, that FM 2023 has built in assists for pad users that you, the player, cannot turn off. What a wheel has or has not got is completely irrelevent.

Well it's not irrelevant as it was part of the conversation about gamepads not being able to turn off an assistance while those same people stated it's not present in racing wheels on SIM setting, but the same assistance is in the firmware inside the racing wheels.

Inside the wheel on its software you have lerp happening, in Forza on SIM setting you have lerp happening. It's one in the same just one is being handled by the game software directly on the console or pc, where as the other is being handled directly by the built in software inside the steering wheel hardware.

"Lerp, or Linear Interpolation, is a mathematical function that gradually increments between two points"
You turn from dead centre to 90degrees on a wheel and it's fast but the lerp happens on the hardwares direct software exactly the same method as below for the gamepad.
You turn on a gamepad and the software inside the game reads the current position of the car wheels and lerps to the destination requested.
In turn the same lerp between wheel position and desired will be present with wasd keyboard usage if they allow it but I suspect they do as it would be odd not too.

I do however think this is taking over the forum post as I was only trying to explain it's one in the same from a software development side of things, I really think we should allow the forum post to get back to it's regular convos

 

[nestarion]

https://www.the-race.com/gaming/the-controller-v-wheel-debate-which-is-better-for-sim-racers/
Four-time Forza Racing Championship Champion Aurelien Mallet, commonly known as Laige, explained why that’s the case.
“I mainly use the controller on Forza Motorsport because the game is made around this device.” Mallet told The Race. “It’s actually the only game which feels nice with it, and pace-wise it’s very similar to what you can do with the wheel.
“Difference is it’s a bit more difficult to recover from a mistake on the wheel, hence why people mainly use a controller. “That’s the only racing game with that situation though, as I believe wheel is faster on pretty much all other titles.”

Forza is a Controller optimized game. Period. I have no idea where the claim that the fastest drivers in Forza are wheel users come from. It seems to be the only sim or simcade where using a controller is advantageous.

 

[Ande3200]

I would agree with alot of what you are saying, Forza also lacks the auction house type buying, from the cars I have used so far I can't see much difference in their models compared to the same cars in GT7, I think gt7 uses different lighting compared to FM using more modern lighting tech which makes models show dull in areas but better in others more like real life, I think the car dirtying is a bit fast for keeping the cars looking good as the mucky spots on the models effects the reflection of light and such.

AI races are like racing with real people, I got faked by the AI yesterday it went to my right I went to block and it shifted to the left and then out braked me and blocked my return speed pass back. I'm not a bad racer either I recently went on rivals and got rated 65th in Europe and 108th in the world.

I would suggest a Series S and finding Gamepass unlimited on cd keys type store's, seriously low barrier to entry.

There is absolutly cars that are close between the two, but when you cover in the cars in most of jdm lineup has some very outdated inaccurate models in forza, the new stuff is fine, but quality is very different from car to car, some has lower detail, gt7 has better models if you factor in everything,

i could easily afford an Xbox series x right now if i wanted to play it, now its just not all about money, its more about the game being in a more uncomplete state, buying an series s has to much comprimes on graphics in my opinion, buying the game later only giving you more benefit, if you have patience to wait,

 

[Dave A]

Well it's not irrelevant as it was part of the conversation about gamepads not being able to turn off an assistance while those same people stated it's not present in racing wheels on SIM setting, but the same assistance is in the firmware inside the racing wheels.

The orignal conversation centred around assist built intot he game which the player could not deactivate. Something you said, at the time, didn't exist. Now you're trying to do what? Prove peripherals can provide player assists too? No one is saying that they don't. In fact, I've said specifically that some peripherals do. Yet you persist in proving a point unrelated to the original statement you made, that there are no assists in the game for pad players that you cannot turn off. A purely false statement regardless of what a specific wheel does or does not do.

Inside the wheel on its software you have lerp happening, in Forza on SIM setting you have lerp happening. It's one in the same just one is being handled by the game software directly on the console or pc, where as the other is being handled directly by the built in software inside the steering wheel hardware.

"Lerp, or Linear Interpolation, is a mathematical function that gradually increments between two points"
You turn from dead centre to 90degrees on a wheel and it's fast but the lerp happens on the hardwares direct software exactly the same method as below for the gamepad.
You turn on a gamepad and the software inside the game reads the current position of the car wheels and lerps to the destination requested.
In turn the same lerp between wheel position and desired will be present with wasd keyboard usage if they allow it but I suspect they do as it would be odd not too.

I do however think this is taking over the forum post as I was only trying to explain it's one in the same from a software development side of things, I really think we should allow the forum post to get back to it's regular convos

I'm happy you've heard of lerp. Lerp is very simple in that all it's doing is smoothing the transition between two values. This is often done to visualise what it hapening smoothly on the screen but it does have other applications. It is not all that is going on though.

Find a track with a wide enough space to test in and using a wheel, take a car to a steady 100mph speed and fast as you can turn the wheel full lock to the left or right. Then with the same settings, try again with the same car on that same area of track, but with a game pad. Even though it's quicker to move the thumb stick all the way over, the car will react as though the inputs are lesser when compared directly with the wheel. Do you know why?

 

[RobertHammer]

Visual downgrade - reveal vs final release

 

[AlfaDave]

The orignal conversation centred around assist built intot he game which the player could not deactivate. Something you said, at the time, didn't exist. Now you're trying to do what? Prove peripherals can provide player assists too? No one is saying that they don't. In fact, I've said specifically that some peripherals do. Yet you persist in proving a point unrelated to the original statement you made, that there are no assists in the game for pad players that you cannot turn off. A purely false statement regardless of what a specific wheel does or does not do.

I'm happy you've heard of lerp. Lerp is very simple in that all it's doing is smoothing the transition between two values. This is often done to visualise what it hapening smoothly on the screen but it does have other applications. It is not all that is going on though.

Find a track with a wide enough space to test in and using a wheel, take a car to a steady 100mph speed and fast as you can turn the wheel full lock to the left or right. Then with the same settings, try again with the same car on that same area of track, but with a game pad. Even though it's quicker to move the thumb stick all the way over, the car will react as though the inputs are lesser when compared directly with the wheel. Do you know why?

I still state it doesn't exist as it's not an assistance, it's basically there for all games, it will be the same in top tier racing Sims it's either in the hardware(firmware) or in the simulation software.

I'm stating it is a method of smoothing inputs which is present in every game. The reason why it's in every game as wheels turn by simulated scripts not by motor's or by a rack n pinion steering setup. You will also find this smoothing in actual road cars for the fly by wire pedals.

This was the original post I argued saying it's not an assist as it's in every racing game or in the firmware in a wheel it just works on if the smoothing of position(not irregular spikes that's separate algorithm) it is not an assist it is just a way to create simulation on a game as games don't have all the mechanisms controlling steering, so you have to slow and smooth movement.

 

[sonnyboychris]

Briefly watched SuperGT's multiplayer experience in Forza, it seems like it has the superior penalty system. That's something I'll keep an eye on moving forward.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Or maybe some people are happy with just GT and there's nothing wrong with that.

From what I seen from videos and reviews I'm not a fan of the driving physics feel way to arcadey for my taste.

It's no more "arcadey" than GT7. I've been playing it since about 8 PM. on the 4th until 1 AM this morning. It is a good game and worth playing.

The AI is much faster in FM but also much more stupid than the AI in GT7. It is not a match for Sophy.

The one-player game is excellent. I have no opinion of Multiplayer.

 

[AlfaDave]

It's no more "arcadey" than GT7. I've been playing it since about 8 PM. on the 4th until 1 AM this morning. It is a good game and worth playing.

The AI is much faster in FM but also much more stupid than the AI in GT7. It is not a match for Sophy.

The one-player game is excellent. I have no opinion of Multiplayer.

It must be really random as the AI Vs me are really smart they fake pass they do mess up every so often if pushing in a group but it's normally the outer cars if they try to all get around a corner 3 wide, pretty much like online racers do.
What difficulty level do you have it on?
This might be a contributing factor as it makes them better or worse.

See if you can beat my rival time in the VIP area.

 

[TheOneDonJuan]

At first I didn't think there was any way I'd be jumping over to Forza but the graphics look amazing and they don't seem to have an annoying Nissan fetish. Also penalty system looks better? The races look a little more arcade-y to me but not sure if I like that or not. I do love the VR in GT7 but Forza car selection just kind of trounces it right now. C8R is already there and GT7 barely got the C8 in this year. Who knows when/if they'll ever get around to having C8R in the game. Two 911s, the Bentley, Audi TT....if they adapt VR which I'm assuming has to be in the works then it could definitely be interesting.

 

[Kipczirczir]

Speaking about AI...

 

[AlfaDave]

Something I should remind people is YouTubers make more money off click baity video's, many won't watch a video of the game working how it does in normal use and for 99% of the races.
Same happened with GT7 so many horror story video's but in reality the game was very good. Same is true of FM. 99% of the time in normal racing it's great 1% of the time the AI will mess up go to narrow into a corner and plant their car into yours.
I have seen the pits get blocked by the AI on maple valley one AI spun out and fit perfectly in the pit lane sideways the other AI just kept running into it as I can gather as I only could see it shortly on two laps then it was gone.

For AI sometimes things go to turd. iRacing example.

 

[jergto]

Briefly watched SuperGT's multiplayer experience in Forza, it seems like it has the superior penalty system. That's something I'll keep an eye on moving forward.

I jumped this part (like the run up to that turn) and launched me probably 100 ft in air, landed in the grass and was given a 9-sec penalty!

 

[ImaRobot]

I still state it doesn't exist as it's not an assistance, it's basically there for all games, it will be the same in top tier racing Sims it's either in the hardware(firmware) or in the simulation software.

I'm stating it is a method of smoothing inputs which is present in every game. The reason why it's in every game as wheels turn by simulated scripts not by motor's or by a rack n pinion steering setup. You will also find this smoothing in actual road cars for the fly by wire pedals.

This was the original post I argued saying it's not an assist as it's in every racing game or in the firmware in a wheel it just works on if the smoothing of position(not irregular spikes that's separate algorithm) it is not an assist it is just a way to create simulation on a game as games don't have all the mechanisms controlling steering, so you have to slow and smooth movement.
View attachment 1292972

Yeah, no, still wrong. Its a dampening assist to help the player achieve feats that would otherwise be very difficult produce on their own without it, on a pad. It's also impossible to disable as well, no matter what. Even though you also originally claimed simulation steering turns it off.

There's no to ways about it. Weird that your the only one in all my years to pretend it's not. Not sure if it's to make yourself feel better or what, but it's just odd to dig such a hole about it.

 

[FatnSlo]

At first I didn't think there was any way I'd be jumping over to Forza but the graphics look amazing and they don't seem to have an annoying Nissan fetish. Also penalty system looks better? The races look a little more arcade-y to me but not sure if I like that or not. I do love the VR in GT7 but Forza car selection just kind of trounces it right now. C8R is already there and GT7 barely got the C8 in this year. Who knows when/if they'll ever get around to having C8R in the game. Two 911s, the Bentley, Audi TT....if they adapt VR which I'm assuming has to be in the works then it could definitely be interesting.

I don't think there are any plans for VR. If there are, please enlighten me.

 

[AlfaDave]

Yeah, no, still wrong. Its a dampening assist to help the player achieve feats that would otherwise be very difficult produce on their own without it, on a pad. It's also impossible to disable as well, no matter what. Even though you also originally claimed simulation steering turns it off.

There's no to ways about it. Weird that your the only one in all my years to pretend it's not. Not sure if it's to make yourself feel better or what, but it's just odd to dig such a hole about it.

Maybe it's due to the fact you haven't had people who know the algorithms are the same for smoothing in both applications(firmware on wheel) & software in game.

Let's just agree to disagree as I will soon get to go back on FM and I don't want to waste more time.

 

[Dave A]

Maybe it's due to the fact you haven't had people who know the algorithms are the same for smoothing in both applications(firmware on wheel) & software in game.

Yeah... No, it's not that.

 

[TumeK5]

As a bystander it's funny to watch how much discussion Forza has on the Gran Turismo 7 forums.

 

[Tired Tyres]

It must be really random as the AI Vs me are really smart they fake pass they do mess up every so often if pushing in a group but it's normally the outer cars if they try to all get around a corner 3 wide, pretty much like online racers do.
What difficulty level do you have it on?
This might be a contributing factor as it makes them better or worse.

See if you can beat my rival time in the VIP area.

1:39.8. User name on Xbox is Tired Tyres. I'm in the process of going from level 3 AI to level 4.

 

[TheOneDonJuan]

I don't think there are any plans for VR. If there are, please enlighten me.

Just an assumption. The level of detail in the cockpits and on the track just give me that suspicion considering that's how GT7 went about it. It could be nothing but it's definitely there for the taking as PD has left itself incredibly exposed here on multiple fronts. Also Microsoft has like...way more money to properly develop something like that which they can then subsequently tie into more than just their video game consoles.

I'd pay hundreds more for a better VR than the PSVR2 which is incredible in its own right.

 

[Ande3200]

The cockpits with the overall interiors including the car models look better in gt7 than forza motorsport to me of what i seen, but track and enviroments is better in fm, but they need to fix it for pc its really broken very badly optimized

 

[AlfaDave]

Hopefully this will help anyone going into Forza with a wheel as I hope you will get the same amount of fun as me with my gamepad, earlier I had a 7 lap battle with two other drivers and I finished 0.004 ahead of the other guy it was photo finish. All I have experienced online is light love taps lol. All online races have been that fun they have raised my heart beat lol
Steering wheel settings fix

 

[gtracedriver1]

GT8 should also update the tracks I think that is the only big upgrade Forza got rest was all hype. How come Watkins glen has artificial lights in Forza lol. I do not think that exist in real life ?

 

[Techlet]

but track and enviroments is better in fm

Le Mans could really do with some touch up in GT7 when compared directly next to Forza.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Le Mans could really do with some touch up in GT7 when compared directly next to Forza.

The only thing different to me is in GT7 the tree pop-in on the straight is really noticeable.

 

[ScottPuss20]

If Forza's post-launch roadmap and online events are anything to go by, I'll be spending a lot less time on GT7.