Will GT7 Get Left behind when Forza Motorsports 8 hits the Market?

[Imari]

It's very difficult to understand why some people go out of their way to defend T10 and PG, even omitting information (for what?), when neither studio has been exactly fair when it comes to monetization.

Because while that's true over the (more than 15 year) lifespan of the franchise, the most recent games in FM7 and FH5 seem to me to be pretty fair in their monetization. IMO, T10 and PG have gotten to a place that is pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the industry. If you think that there's key information that is being omitted from a one paragraph answer (remember, it's not a documentary), then by all means add it in. Maybe it's something that I just don't know, I'm not omniscient.

Like everything there's always things that could be done better, but I think the Forza monetization model is currently superior to what Gran Turismo has chosen to do. You can view that as defence if you like, but it only really looks like that when viewed from a particularly Gran Turismo-centric position. To people who are not personally attached to any particular franchise it's just talking about how one game franchise handles it's monetisation.

As far as your claims of full monetisation being planned for FM7 and FH4, that's really neither here nor there even if you could somehow provide proof that it existed. They didn't do it. There were more aggressive monetisation schemes in earlier Forza games, and they stopped doing that. That's a good thing for players.

 

[Cheshyrkat]

I have the Japanese and American versions of those games. Thats how much of a fan i USED to be.

Same. Also have an original demo disc of GT2000 and the eventual demo of GT3. Killed a ps2 trying to mod for gt2000 but played a lot of the GT3 demo lol.

 

[Nowax]

GT7 will have more content as soon as 2023 hits up. Can't say for sure.

 

[Imari]

GT7 will have more content as soon as 2023 hits up. Can't say for sure.

The oceans are going to spontaneously turn into Jello in September. Can't say for sure.

 

[Pearl Jam]

It's very difficult to understand why some people go out of their way to defend T10 and PG

The fact you have the audacity to post this should surprise me but it doesn’t considering the daily drivel you spout about your beloved Kaz and PD

 

[MagpieRacer]

I see a lot of talk in this thread about the passion of cars that Gran Turismo has and how much love and care Kaz puts into the cars and how passionate PD are etc. And I don't dispute that. But the bit that usually follows is the implication that Forza and turn 10 don't have that same love.

Plainly untrue, for a start, which game lets us freely walk around the cars and open every aspect of them up to look at in detail? Clue, it isn't Gran Turismo.

 

[HyperSpeeder]

Given FM only has a broad Spring release timeframe. It could be upto a year before it hits the market. We have no idea about the level of content or features. Or if it indeed has been rebuilt from the ground up.

FM’s biggest challenge will continue to be the popularity of FH5 on its own platform.

Speaking of which, one marketing trend I noticed is that Sony carefully placed the GT7 teasers last year close to FH5's launch. And Microsoft held back content in FH5 to drop it after GT7 launched.

Which tells me that, although the two titles don't compete directly (different genres), both companies are trying to make it so, because they're the two major racing game exclusives on their platforms.

FM7's biggest problem was the success of FH3. Lots of people didn't make the move to FM7 after FH3 reached end of support. At this point, FM is fighting for survival. It exists because FH needs an engine. But it's squeezed between the fight between two giants (GT and FH).

Game Pass will boost its player count artificially but we all know who the top dog at Xbox is now.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Game Pass will boost its player count artificially but we all know who the top dog at Xbox is now.

Fun fact: a game that is more casual to play is going to be more popular. Who knew!

Also, you're talking out your ass again. And didn't at all bother to respond to the three people who directly refuted your 'points' the last time you talked out your ass. Might want to start doing that.

 

[GTxForza]

We will find out about this and to me, there is no point to have an imaginary war between these two legendary franchises.

Edit: Polyphony Digital needs to keep updating GT7 right now.

 

[Scaff]

Question for the fellas in here: are there any games or series you'd recommend (or are worth keeping an eye on for future releases) that would hit the spot for someone who was really hoping for the "return to form with solo career/campaign/progression" aspect of Gran Turismo 7?

Recent ones? That would be either FM7, Grid Legends or Project Cars 3, with PC3 being the closest in terms of single player structure (buy/race/upgrade/tune/race). Obviously if you looking at PlayStation alone you can ignore FM7.

 

[Imari]

At this point, FM is fighting for survival.

In what sense? FM8 isn't going to kill GT7, and I fail to see what could happen with FM8's release short of categorically bricking people's hardware that would actually kill Forza Motorsport as a series. Even if the release is poor, there's enough history and value in the brand that it's not going to just up and die based on one dodgy game. The last couple of entries have been well enough received even if they were pretty formulaic.

It seems fairly unlikely that FM8 will be worse received than say, FM5, and that didn't even come close to killing the franchise.

 

[Samus]

I'm sure MS has already long adjusted their expectations and that they know FH will be the bigger seller of the two now. As long as FM sells in solid enough numbers though, it'll be still worthwhile.

 

[Nowax]

The oceans are going to spontaneously turn into Jello in September. Can't say for sure.

Haha. Funny.

 

[Samus]

Haha. Funny.

Well, your post was odd. What did you mean? You've been told there will be more content, or you hope there will be?

 

[HyperSpeeder]

Because while that's true over the (more than 15 year) lifespan of the franchise, the most recent games in FM7 and FH5 seem to me to be pretty fair in their monetization. IMO, T10 and PG have gotten to a place that is pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the industry. If you think that there's key information that is being omitted from a one paragraph answer (remember, it's not a documentary), then by all means add it in. Maybe it's something that I just don't know, I'm not omniscient.

Like everything there's always things that could be done better, but I think the Forza monetization model is currently superior to what Gran Turismo has chosen to do. You can view that as defence if you like, but it only really looks like that when viewed from a particularly Gran Turismo-centric position. To people who are not personally attached to any particular franchise it's just talking about how one game franchise handles it's monetisation.

As far as your claims of full monetisation being planned for FM7 and FH4, that's really neither here nor there even if you could somehow provide proof that it existed. They didn't do it. There were more aggressive monetisation schemes in earlier Forza games, and they stopped doing that. That's a good thing for players.

https://www.gtplanet.net/turn-10-confirms-microtransaction-plans-forza-7/

And obviously, they didn't go on with the plan. Why? Because the game was a commercial flop (GT Sport, a barebones e-sports game at that point, crushed it at launch) and they had to regain favor with the players. There had been a progressive push for MTX for a long time and it took a ridiculously broken and underwhelming game as well as an adverse environment with industrywide aftereffects (Battlefront II and Shadow of War were other affected games) for Microsoft to stop it altogether in Forza.

Because, it must be stressed, the intended monetization was just the surface when it came to FM7's myriad of issues at launch. The game was released truly unfinished, with parts of it broken to its day. PC port was horrible. And it remained unfinished after support ended. Now T10 comes up with smoke and mirrors yet again and people are supposed to just take their statements for granted?

The greatest irony in all this is how FM7 actually has a much more extensive career mode than any of its Xbox One predecessors, and much more so than either GTS or GT7, yet it was not enough to save the game. They tried everything: removed the lootboxes, added the beta from the racing regulations, even brought the McLaren Senna to the game, but they gave up. It's delusional to call GT7 "broken" in light of FM7's woes during the same time period.

And I do believe that putting recycled junk in the Car Pass while giving completely new cars in the Playlist after the Car Pass has expired, as Playground loves to do, is poor business practice. Better to eliminate the Car Pass, then.

I'm not defending GT7's monetization system, BTW. I'm an old school gamer. I'd rather earn things myself. Roulettes suck. It's just that, in an ambient where no monetization is tolerated, any plans for it, any form of it, should be frowned upon. Notice that Sony has not backed down on it. Why? They don't have to. The game is a success. I turn my PS5 on and there it is, "trending" in my location's PS Store page. No amount of whining from the so called "veterans", who clearly have a much bigger emotional connection to Kaz than I ever will, will change it.

Anyway, I rest my case.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Why? Because the game was a commercial flop

They literally walked it back 48 hours after release, far from enough time to determine a "huge commercial flop".

Release date: Oct 3rd, 2017. This article: Oct. 5th, 2017.

You're wrong again.

I'm not defending GT7's monetization system

Considering how hard you like to posit Forza as evil, and that you have continually, for years, lied about Forza simply to make your arguments seem better (when much of your 'information' is easily searched to show it wasn't the case, and when pushed back upon, you completely ignore, as you have done now three times in this thread) you sure as **** are doing a lot of water carrying for Polyphony, and you sure as hell aren't slick when it comes to that water carrying, trying to be someone who supposedly criticizes all.

Anyway, I rest my case.

You never had a case to begin with. And if you did, it was achieved through lying.

You also haven't at all touched the people going against the posts you have made with absolute falsehoods, including one from a moderator telling you to stop. When are you going to respond?

 

[TokoTurismo]

I see a lot of talk in this thread about the passion of cars that Gran Turismo has and how much love and care Kaz puts into the cars and how passionate PD are etc. And I don't dispute that. But the bit that usually follows is the implication that Forza and turn 10 don't have that same love.

Plainly untrue, for a start, which game lets us freely walk around the cars and open every aspect of them up to look at in detail? Clue, it isn't Gran Turismo.

Exactly. Heck, you can't even spin the camera in GT either (in game BTW), and yet in Forza you can do just that to appreciate the details of each car you own. But, apparently Forza still doesn't show passionate for cars.

 

[alex511]

I definitely think, in one year when Forza is awaited to come out, GT7 will be on much better stand than it is now.
As more it goes to the live broadcast events of GT7, Polyphony have to deliver a nearly perfect online driving.
all other would be a blame for the publicity if the game interrupts while driving or so.
And there certainly will come a lot of more content over the next year. So calm down.

 

[ICEYOU3]

Gran Turismo won't get left behind, but I do believe it's important for the genre that Forza succeeds. Competition drives innovation, so I wish T10 tremendous success. One thing I appreciate is how accessible the Xbox brand has become over the years, this will definitely help Forza's case.

If the game's fire I'll pick up a box for it.🔥

 

[Imari]

Because, it must be stressed, the intended monetization was just the surface when it came to FM7's myriad of issues at launch. The game was released truly unfinished, with parts of it broken to its day. PC port was horrible. And it remained unfinished after support ended. Now T10 comes up with smoke and mirrors yet again and people are supposed to just take their statements for granted?

What? I played the PC port last week. It works fine. It worked fine when I bought it, it works fine now. What parts of it are unfinished? It's far from the best game I ever played, but it does pretty much exactly what it says on the tin. I've certainly got my money's worth out of it and I don't remember having any major problems apart from spending an annoying amount of time tinkering with it's FFB.

If you want to call T10's marketing smoke and mirrors then all marketing is smoke and mirrors. Which in this day and age might not be far wrong, but I suspect you're just using it for hyperbole. You can not believe them if you want, there's a lot of people that don't believe Gran Turismo's marketing as well and for fair reasons based on historical precedent. But the current state of Forza monetisation is pretty mild compared to what Polyphony has going, and T10 hasn't to my knowledge said anything in marketing to indicate any change there.

If you want to assume that they're going to go full ActiBlizz on the microtransactions then go nuts, but that opinion would only be based on your apparently hyper-negative emotional response to Forza and T10. You seem threatened that another game might compete with Gran Turismo, instead of excited that there might be a whole other game on the level of Gran Turismo to play.

McDonalds isn't threatened by KFC existing, it just means that you have more than one option of fast food to eat. And like, you can eat both. It's okay. You're not going to get Polyphony PD coming round to shoot you in the kneecaps for heresy.

 

[Silver Arrows]

But the current state of Forza monetisation is pretty mild compared to what Polyphony has going, and T10 hasn't to my knowledge said anything in marketing to indicate any change there.

And in fact, even when it was at its worst, it was nowhere near as bad as Polyphony has taken it, especially now. Those loot boxes that had people on this side of the forum frothing and calling for T10's heads? All filled with game mods that made the game harder more often then not, and cosmetics only. You did not buy them with real money, only with credits in game. The car tokens, as I already mentioned up thread, could be disabled from the times I played that era of Forza games, and more often then not were immaterial considering that this was also the point where Forza started to lean into giving cash out like candy, cars too.

But of course, we're supposed to believe that Forza had a monetization plan and system in the games and ready to be turned on at a moment's notice, even when evidence to prove that has not once been shown the times it has been shouted out as supposedly fact. We're supposed to not trust T10 and PG even though they ****ed up, once, and learned their lesson and subsequently have not turned back to micro-transactions, even though Polyphony have had them in their past three games, and in the past two instances, either lied about not adding them, and subsequently did when the player base was effectively only those hardcore players who still remained, or instituted them only after good reviews were attained, and made it so that the economic situation was vastly different between reviewers, and the common player.

Yet when pointed out with these facts, apparently that means that because Sony hasn't backed down, that it's a good thing, and that no amount of whining will change things in the case of GT7, even when it is is an active detriment in the eyes of the player base, both hardcore and casually. It is so blatantly obvious what the name of the game is, that I'm surprised that it's still being perpetuated. Then again, when you're peddling absolute falsehoods, continually, and have completely ignored calls for evidence and even calls to stop from a moderator, it seems only a matter of time before Icarus flies into the sun after flirting so close with it.

 

[AutumnalGlow]

Those loot boxes that had people on this side of the forum frothing and calling for T10's heads? All filled with game mods that made the game harder more often then not, and cosmetics only.

This isn't entirely true. The game did release with loot boxes that contained cars. I don't believe any were locked behind these loot boxes, but I can't be 100% sure. However, the game did receive an update that moved all cars to the standard shop except for the few locked behind career progression, as well as only one or two unicorn cars... and the Totino's Paganis if you care about those.

Turn 10 listened to feedback and still removed the parts people strongly disliked. They adjusted force feedback and started working on their Forza Race Regulations system and a new experimental drag racing mode. They listened to feedback the entire time, even if not every change people wanted was made in the end. They can't please everyone. They still did their best to please as many as possible.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Turn 10 listened to feedback and still removed the parts people strongly disliked. They adjusted force feedback and started working on their Forza Race Regulations system and a new experimental drag racing mode. They listened to feedback the entire time, even if not every change people wanted was made in the end. They can't please everyone. They still did their best to please as many as possible.

This is the ultimate point that should be taken from all of this - T10 are at the very least willing to listen to feedback and apply them in a timely manner. They are indeed willing to look at their games in a post mortem, realize what went wrong, and at least make attempts to fix it. They did that for the last bit of FM7's life before it reached EOL, and that is certainly commendable. They screwed up, once, and haven't gone back to it, and have kept their word six years later. And now, they're creating the next game in the franchise and taking what they have learned and trying to make something better.

What has Polyphony done in that same time frame? Lie, deceive, and go absolutely nowhere near the legacy problems that have plagued the series since GT4, really. We're reaching almost two decades since that game came out, and what has really been changed in the GT franchise other then constant spinning the tires trying to re-catch what GT4 had, and a wholly reactionary online only push that wasn't well received at all, to the point that they had to point it back in a single player direction?

But T10 are just waiting to re-introduce micro-transactions any day now, just you watch. Give me a goddamn break.

 

[Tornado]

Because while that's true over the (more than 15 year) lifespan of the franchise, the most recent games in FM7 and FH5 seem to me to be pretty fair in their monetization. IMO, T10 and PG have gotten to a place that is pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the industry

Most amusingly, when the rest of the industry (well, not Take 2) started dialing things way back in general after increased pushback from consumers was when PD specifically (but not the rest of Sony) shifted microtransactions into overdrive; even to the extent of lying about their presence in GT Sport like Activision does.

At this point, FM is fighting for survival. It exists because FH needs an engine. But it's squeezed between the fight between two giants (GT and FH).

I remember around the period immediately following GT5 coming out many members (one of which even posted in this thread on the first page) were insisting that Forza was on life support because even a huge monopoly like Micro$oft simply couldn't afford to keep making big budget games with Hollywood graphic studios working alongside several-hundred-people-strong development teams to compete with Gran Turismo when they only sold a fraction as much each time (nevermind that multiple Forza releases had repeatedly come out in the same span of time PD released one game).





That was 5 games ago.

 

[kinghock]

Way too early to say. I think the biggest reason it won't, is it's two different consoles. So it's a different player base anyway, quite aside from which game turns out to be better.

Secondly, I don't know about anyone else, but that trailer didn't really do anything for me. We'll see. I've only owned one Xbox, a 360 Elite, which I bought second-hand when GT was between 5 and 6, and I played FM4. I really enjoyed it, far more than what GT was doing at the time, but haven't felt captivated enough to buy another Xbox since, although Horizon has tempted me before.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Most amusingly, when the rest of the industry (well, not Take 2) started dialing things way back in general after increased pushback from consumers was when PD specifically (but not the rest of Sony) shifted microtransactions into overdrive; even to the extent of lying about their presence in GT Sport.

In fact, to underline this point further, the only Sony published title that even has micro-transactions to the level that GT does is MLB The Show. San Diego Studio not only do not at all require them, but also put up most of, if not all their weekly, monthly, and legend cards for Diamond Dynasty as game rewards within that mode's walled gardens:



and this also applies to special holiday related equipment as well, though more often then not you can also buy it within the game's market as well. The equipment can also be used within Franchise and specifically Road to the Show mode, but they aren't at all required, in either mode. It's about as fair of a system I can think of compared to other sports games, and compared to GT7 in particular, goes to show how much of GT's systems run contrary to so many other game's application of micro-transactions, including within their own publishing company.

Are micro-transactions bad? Yes, but in most instances in recent history it is within the scope of cosmetics. Even in the worst off case, as presented above, they aren't at all required for progression, and they certainly aren't to the level of infecting every other gameplay structure and loop like GT7 has applied them in. But apparently it's all Jim Ryan's fault for making Kaz put in micro-transactions and doing them in a way that throws up the middle finger to most every player who spends time in the game, either an hour or a hundred hours.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Exactly. Heck, you can't even spin the camera in GT either (in game BTW), and yet in Forza you can do just that to appreciate the details of each car you own. But, apparently Forza still doesn't show passionate for cars.

Passion is old people talking about cars in a virtual cafe

You could inspect cars in detail in VR in GT Sport

But only in that mode.

Maybe GT is more focused on 'special' cars, it certainly isn't focused on tracks anymore though. The track roster in FM7 is refreshing and finally get to drive the other variations at Sarthe (Bugatti circuit), Suzuka (West) etc.

 

[SPURS3420]

I haven’t played FM7 but I was checking out its car list and was quite impressed. If FM8 can get closer to GT’s gameplay quality, but with more events/tracks/cars, I might have to get an Xbox or a better TV to give it a try. I’ve tried the FH games with friends but always found the physics to be a bit too arcade for my taste.

I’ve seriously considered buying FM7 for PC because it has more cohesive racing classes than most games, plus NASCAR, Aussie Supercars, and IndyCars, plus more Le Mans/Daytona Prototype cars. If FM8 gives us a similar lineup, I’m going to give it a shot, even if I prefer GT’s gameplay.

My perspective is that GT is a “quality” series, where FM is a “quantity” series. The ideal “simcade” racer should balance both of those traits, and right now, GT7 is sorely lacking in quantity when it comes to content.

 

[Dave A]

https://www.gtplanet.net/turn-10-confirms-microtransaction-plans-forza-7/

And obviously, they didn't go on with the plan. Why? Because the game was a commercial flop (GT Sport, a barebones e-sports game at that point, crushed it at launch) and they had to regain favor with the players. There had been a progressive push for MTX for a long time and it took a ridiculously broken and underwhelming game as well as an adverse environment with industrywide aftereffects (Battlefront II and Shadow of War were other affected games) for Microsoft to stop it altogether in Forza.

Because, it must be stressed, the intended monetization was just the surface when it came to FM7's myriad of issues at launch. The game was released truly unfinished, with parts of it broken to its day. PC port was horrible. And it remained unfinished after support ended. Now T10 comes up with smoke and mirrors yet again and people are supposed to just take their statements for granted?

The greatest irony in all this is how FM7 actually has a much more extensive career mode than any of its Xbox One predecessors, and much more so than either GTS or GT7, yet it was not enough to save the game. They tried everything: removed the lootboxes, added the beta from the racing regulations, even brought the McLaren Senna to the game, but they gave up. It's delusional to call GT7 "broken" in light of FM7's woes during the same time period.

And I do believe that putting recycled junk in the Car Pass while giving completely new cars in the Playlist after the Car Pass has expired, as Playground loves to do, is poor business practice. Better to eliminate the Car Pass, then.

I'm not defending GT7's monetization system, BTW. I'm an old school gamer. I'd rather earn things myself. Roulettes suck. It's just that, in an ambient where no monetization is tolerated, any plans for it, any form of it, should be frowned upon. Notice that Sony has not backed down on it. Why? They don't have to. The game is a success. I turn my PS5 on and there it is, "trending" in my location's PS Store page. No amount of whining from the so called "veterans", who clearly have a much bigger emotional connection to Kaz than I ever will, will change it.

Anyway, I rest my case.

Stop making stuff up.

And as far as the PC port of FM7 goes, I bought the PC port on day 1. It's far from my favourite game, in fact I dislike a fair few things about how they mismanaged the homologation and single player structure. But it was a well optimised port and plays smoothly on my laptop as well as my gaming rig. It csrtainlywas not poorly optimised and unfinished.

The only point you made that I agree with is recycling pre-existing content as DLC.

 

[Terronium-12]

Turn 10 Confirms Micro-Transaction Plans for Forza Motorsport 7

Some worried it would happen, but now there's confirmation: Turn 10 is looking at adding Tokens to its latest title. The news comes to us care of a recent Ars Technica article. While we've known about Forza Motorsport 7’s "Prize Crates" for a month, Turn 10 stressed that the in-game gambling func

www.gtplanet.net

Your link is broken. EDIT: ...And it fixed itself. I reckon you posted the URL using the BB code tag and didn't copy and paste it directly into the text editor.

And obviously, they didn't go on with the plan. Why? Because the game was a commercial flop (GT Sport, a barebones e-sports game at that point, crushed it at launch) and they had to regain favor with the players. There had been a progressive push for MTX for a long time and it took a ridiculously broken and underwhelming game as well as an adverse environment with industrywide aftereffects (Battlefront II and Shadow of War were other affected games) for Microsoft to stop it altogether in Forza.

Dude, what? They didn't go through with the plan because of the overwhelming negative feedback. How do you have such consistently garbage trash takes that are always wrong? It's a phenomenon. A legitimate phenomenon.

And, at what point are you referring to? GT Sport released a whole two weeks after Forza Motorsport 7 did, which doesn't matter anyway because, once again, the microtransactions were removed from the game BEFORE IT LAUNCHED.

Because, it must be stressed, the intended monetization was just the surface when it came to FM7's myriad of issues at launch. The game was released truly unfinished, with parts of it broken to its day. PC port was horrible. And it remained unfinished after support ended. Now T10 comes up with smoke and mirrors yet again and people are supposed to just take their statements for granted?

As someone that's played FM7 on PC and Xbox One, the worst thing about FM7 from a performance perspective (on PC) was a memory leak. To some degree, you are right....but not in the way you think or are portraying here. Surprise, surprise.

The most egregiously apparent metric in FM7 on PC is the rotating car platform. It does affect the frame pacing and that hasn't been resolved to this day, last I checked. Though I suspect that's not what you were talking about. There were also some menu issues and random crashes but, again, that was likely more to do with the aforementioned memory leak.

The greatest irony in all this is how FM7 actually has a much more extensive career mode than any of its Xbox One predecessors, and much more so than either GTS or GT7, yet it was not enough to save the game. They tried everything: removed the lootboxes, added the beta from the racing regulations, even brought the McLaren Senna to the game, but they gave up. It's delusional to call GT7 "broken" in light of FM7's woes during the same time period.

This is simply Grade A horse manure.

Anyway, I rest my case.

You had a case to begin with?