Will GT7 Get Left behind when Forza Motorsports 8 hits the Market?

[Silver Arrows]

In what sense is a franchise coming into it's 8th entry over 17 years never a success? Is it normal for games that have never been a success get that many sequels as well as spin-off franchises? Because that seems a little odd to me.

There's a concept that one of fascism's core ideas is positioning enemies as both strong, and somehow weak at the same time. In seeing that somehow, a franchise that has gone on for near two decades and has been, for all intents and purposes, a critical and commercial success as somehow not successful because of reasons reminds me of that concept.

 

[NotThePrez]

Forza Motorsport on the other hand was downgraded to the level of a Forza Horizon track expansion. It's become the lesser priority of Microsoft compared to the younger game. It exists to support Horizon.

Ummm, no, Horizon exists as a parallel. Both series have borrowed things from each other over the years, both series have had their own innovations (and typically the following game attempts to improve on said innovation in some capacity), and as a result it's helped both series improve over time.

Everything we saw in that trailer is not necessary in Forza Motorsport,...

Everything? Cars racing together on a race track, dynamic time and weather, damage, etc. are all not required for a racing game?

...it was created in preparation for FH6.

Citation very much needed.

Even when it comes to content, Forza may have a "diverse" car list, but it just feels bloated. Nothing feels special. Many cars are there for the sake of being there. They're filler, with filler tuning parts. They drive the same. They sound the same.

I...I'm terribly sorry, but are you seriously trying to describe Forza Motorsport's car list (a car list that is not even remotely close to being final, btw) as bloat and present it as a negative, while in the same post singing the praises of Gran Turismo?

Even during GT's worst times and FM's best, FM was never a success. I don't see it overtaking GT now.

Yes, the franchise that has existed for 15+ years, has had multiple strong partnerships with various OEMs, racing disciplines, race drivers and major names in the car world, is arguably the default tech demo for a major entertainment company, and has helped bring awareness to various lesser-known facets of the automotive world, has never been a success. You so got that right! /s

-----------------------------------------

As for the topic at hand, right now there is not nearly enough information about FM in general, so it's way to early to say if it'll have a significant pull on Gran Turismo. Even if it ends up blowing GT7 and every previous FM game out of the water, I doubt it'll have a major influence, primarily because (relatively speaking) there are very few people who cross-shop entire game consoles, and even fewer of those who will cross-shop systems for just one title. Though I will say, if things stay looking this good, then it'll definitely help me prioritize getting a Series X before a PS5.

 

[JustMac]

I don't really see how this could be case by the mere fact it's not a PS title. GT is our only option for big budget sim(cade) stuff.

However I think Assetto Corsa 2 could be very worrying to PD if it comes out on consoles.

 

[05XR8]

I don't really see how this could be case by the mere fact it's not a PS title. GT is our only option for big budget sim(case) stuff.

However I think Assetto Corsa 2 could be very worrying to PD if it comes out on consoles.

You ain’t lying. If AC1 was using the physics of ACC(PS4/DS4)….match made in heaven. 1990’s DTM all day, every day.

 

[Sunzi]

Nah I don't see it happening personally, exclusivity to their respective consoles is enough to ensure both have strong markets.

Look how "bad" GT7 is supposed to be - just read GTP - yet its done well like it's predecessors.

 

[GT3071-r]

I guess we'll have to wait for more details on FM to see if GT7 gets left behind or not. I'm hoping they don't mess up the Online racing.

I've played all of the Forza games since the original in 2005, i picked up a PS5 to give GT7 a try while i wait for the new FM.

The Ultimate SimCade racing game for me would look something like this:-

New Forza Motorsport's graphics
Forza Motorsport 7's car list + FH5's car additions
Forza Motorsport 4's Car club's with shared tuned/painted cars anyone in the car club can use
Forza Motorsport 4's storefront's for your shared tunes/decals/liveries (a lot more slots would be needed though)
Forza Motorsport credit system for people using/liking your shared paints/decals/tunes
Forza Motorsport 2 & 4's Custom Public online Lobby's
Forza Motorsport 7's Single Player
Forza Motorsport 4's Auction House (back before the legendary painters/tuners system ruined it allowing them to sell any car for 20mill)
Forza's ability to sell your cars...straight back to the game, not even bothering with the auction house.
Forza Motorsport 7's League racing
Forza Motorsport 7 + Ride 4 track list
Forza Motorsport 7's Tuning and upgrade system + GT7's power restrictor, ballast, adjustable ECU's and tyre compounds
Forza Motorsport 7's tyre model (probably updated for the new game)
Forza Motorsport's in-game telemetry - great for any tuners
GT7's license test's (adding in if you don't pass the A license, you can't race A-Class cars online etc..)
GT7's bumper cam's HUD/MFD
GT7's Sport mode penalty system (how it was originally, it's pointless currently)
GT7's paint system allowing importing .svg's
GT7's DR & SR system
GT7's driver customisation (Ride 4 was similar)
GT7's Sport mode daily races and cup's
GT7's dynamic time of day and weather
GT7's info for each car in garage (even if it might be a copy paste from somewhere)

I only found this forum after i started playing GT7, i'd not heard of it in the 17 years i was playing Forza before hand.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

No chance... By the time FM8 is released, which is in March 2023, almost 1 year after GT7's release, GT7 will, more than likely have a crap ton more content and bug fixes (or so I hope, and good content as well, not just more) to finally be considered an AAA game.

Plus, the most important fact: They are both exclusives. So the overlap between the playerbase is extremely tiny to the point of being irrelevant. There's barely people out there who have a PS5+Xbox or PS5+PC gaming (a propper gaming PC that is).

 

[JMR450]

Offtopic but, I actually ham and pineapple on my pizzas. 😃 Peanut butter and chocolate...hmmm, there is Resee, so I like it too (sometimes. 😋) lol.

I'm right with you on both. Lol

 

[Raceface1959]

I'm looking forward to it. But in reality, it'll just be another motor sports game to add to the big pile of motor sports games that I already own and enjoy equally. The good thing is that there's never a shortage of games to drive cars in at this moment. I don't think that GT7 will get left behind. It'll remain another option, just as it is today.

 

[Jewel Runner]

Probably not as GT has a unique feel to the handling. Even GT7 being a **** show it still feels like GT and the fan base will stay.

 

[ohho]

I am really not sure.

Everything shown in the trailer



is better than GT7. The ray-tracing graphics, the dynamic environment, the car model detail, ...

except there is one piece of (important) information missing, the feel of in-car control, e.g.: the cockpit view.

I am willing to buy a separate XBOX if the control and force feed back is as good as GT7.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

No.

 

[CodeCmdr]

Forza Motorsports will do some things better, and some things worse.

I think FM was significantly better than GT when it released in 2005, all the way to 2017 when Gran Turismo Sport came out. Basically, Polyphony Digital didn't innovate at all from 2005-2017 and they only released GT5 and GT6 in that time, whereas Turn 10 released seven (!) Forza Motorsports games in that time which had better physics, graphics, and sounds.

Gran Turismo Sport took the lead again in 2017, in my opinion, thanks to the great online racing system and the graphics engine. FM7, the last FM game, came out around the same time as GTS and was kind of irrelevant in comparison.

Turn 10 hasn't released a new FM game since FM7 in 2017, probably because they know they need to do something new to beat GT again. If the new FM game has good online racing, I think it'll do really well. FM6 and I guess FM7 had microtransactions which were pretty disgusting; T10 would be smart if they listen to the community and get rid of that crap for the next FM game - I'm sure a lot of disgruntled GT fans would switch over then.

 

[Barters81]

Bottom line, FM8 being made exclusively for the current gen Xbox series consoles gives the developers waaaaaay more scope to improve physics.

GT7 has been gimped to work on a 12 year old phone cpu that’s in the ps4. The main thing that had to be gimped? Improving fidelity of physics simulations. Something FM8 are leaning into with their advertising with good reason.

GT7 is a ps4 game with a coat of paint. Which to me is the most disappointing thing about it.

 

[Imari]

Gran Turismo Sport took the lead again in 2017, in my opinion, thanks to the great online racing system and the graphics engine. FM7, the last FM game, came out around the same time as GTS and was kind of irrelevant in comparison.

I don't think that's fair. GTS was a vastly superior online experience. FM7 was a vastly superior single player experience. Neither was irrelevant as they both had very distinct design goals.

GT7 and FM8 seem like they're both coming back to a more common ground with a significant single player in addition to a robust online experience.

FM6 and I guess FM7 had microtransactions which were pretty disgusting; T10 would be smart if they listen to the community and get rid of that crap for the next FM game - I'm sure a lot of disgruntled GT fans would switch over then.

You should probably not guess. The monetisation in FM7, FH4 and FH5 has been limited and very up-front. People are free not to like paid DLC, but there's a difference between that and the sort of FOMO based microtransactions that we see in GT7. Paying for expansions and car packs is one thing, paying for in-game currency because the economy is tuned to be just on the frustrating side of barely acceptable is another.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I don't think that's fair. GTS was a vastly superior online experience. FM7 was a vastly superior single player experience. Neither was irrelevant as they both had very distinct design goals.

GT7 and FM8 seem like they're both coming back to a more common ground with a significant single player in addition to a robust online experience.

You should probably not guess. The monetisation in FM7, FH4 and FH5 has been limited and very up-front. People are free not to like paid DLC, but there's a difference between that and the sort of FOMO based microtransactions that we see in GT7. Paying for expansions and car packs is one thing, paying for in-game currency because the economy is tuned to be just on the frustrating side of barely acceptable is another.

Unless I'm mistaken, there is nothing 'FOMO' about GT7 (disregarding cars from pre-order or AE versions) that a little patience won't solve.

As for 'FOMO based micro transactions", someone could 'miss out' on a Cr15,000 car from the UCD, just as someone may 'miss out' on a Cr. 15mill. car from the LCD.
The former clearly has nothing to do with micro transactions.

And once again, unless I'm mistaken, nothing more than a little patience solves this 'problem'.

 

[Imari]

Unless I'm mistaken, there is nothing 'FOMO' about GT7 (disregarding cars from pre-order or AE versions) that a little patience won't solve.

Right. That's what makes it FOMO. You could keep waiting, but you technically don't know when that car or invitation will come around again. You can "be patient" and wait, but you could be waiting for an indeterminate amount of time.

The fact that these things aren't on a regular and publically available schedule is the difference between simply having limited availability and being designed to invoke fear of missing out. The player fears that the car may not be available again by the time they want to use it because they don't and can't know.

Not all people are equally susceptible to this. But being patient requires effort, especially with regards to an entertainment product where you're supposed to be having a good time. There are good games based around delayed gratification, but it's usually more nuanced than this.

As for 'FOMO based micro transactions", someone could 'miss out' on a Cr15,000 car from the UCD, just as someone may 'miss out' on a Cr. 15mill. car from the LCD.
The former clearly has nothing to do with micro transactions.

You'd think, but it establishes consistency across the entire game. It establishes the ground truth that in the game cars have limited availability, and that if you don't buy them while they're available you don't know when you'll get the next opportunity.

Doing this with affordable cars gets the player into the mindset that buying these cars while they're available is correct gameplay. It's conditioning. So then when faced with an example of a more expensive car, or one that you cannot afford at all, it forces the player to try and break from the pattern that has already been established.

Don't underestimate how carefully crafted these systems are. All the parts are there for a reason.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Right. That's what makes it FOMO. You could keep waiting, but you technically don't know when that car or invitation will come around again. You can "be patient" and wait, but you could be waiting for an indeterminate amount of time.

The fact that these things aren't on a regular and publically available schedule is the difference between simply having limited availability and being designed to invoke fear of missing out. The player fears that the car may not be available again by the time they want to use it because they don't and can't know.

Not all people are equally susceptible to this. But being patient requires effort, especially with regards to an entertainment product where you're supposed to be having a good time. There are good games based around delayed gratification, but it's usually more nuanced than this.

You'd think, but it establishes consistency across the entire game. It establishes the ground truth that in the game cars have limited availability, and that if you don't buy them while they're available you don't know when you'll get the next opportunity.

Doing this with affordable cars gets the player into the mindset that buying these cars while they're available is correct gameplay. It's conditioning. So then when faced with an example of a more expensive car, or one that you cannot afford at all, it forces the player to try and break from the pattern that has already been established.

Don't underestimate how carefully crafted these systems are. All the parts are there for a reason.

Umm, yep, sure.
Don't think that the irony of saying there is no 'FOMO' and then using the term 'miss out' passed me by.
A little weird, sure. But I think it's a genuine and truthful statement.

I'll roll with IMO here, but whether it's a know schedule or not, the opportunity to acquire any specific car is never a 'do it now or it's gone forever' scenario in GT7.
Most people know this, or at least those interested enough about the circumstance have the means to find out and understand the situation.
Those that can't be bothered and just open their wallet are more than likely the type to do so anyway, regardless of the situation.

As for the system being 'carefully crafted' ... I'm not so sure that's a fair assessment.
It seems fairly generic and clumsy, with no real psychological incentive being pushed via 'x amount of money gets you x amount of credits which gets you x car, etc.'.
I mean if LCD cars were Cr.10mill and they sold Credit packages at Cr.9mill a pop ... sure.
But that's not the case.

 

[Ande3200]

No forza motorsport won’t left gt7 dead not even close, but for me it dosen’t really matter i prefer gt over forza, like much more how the cars handles, but that dosen’t mean i dislike forza, i will pick up next forza motorsport, i play both franshises, and in my opinion there is no other franshises that i like as much their is such special cars i never see outside forza and gran turismo, witch is why i prefer those 2 overall when it comes to track racers

 

[hardvibes]

For those who play both GT and FM: probably.
For those who only play GT: obviously not.

 

[Razamataz]

... the number of people that say, "that's it I'm never playing GT again" and then actually do it, are a pretty small percentage of players out of the overall GT population.

Shameless addicts the lot of us

 

[Cayit]

Will GT7 Get Left behind when Forza Motorsports 8 hits the Market?​

I say YES !
GT7 is just a half baked game to me.
No Career Mode, not many Events and also not enough Cars...
GT7 should have been postponed to get filled with all the missing things i mentioned.
I am thinking to get a SeriesX to Play the new Motorsport.
I am really dissapointed what PD released with GT7.

 

[FoxMulder]

I already left GT7 behind already. Forza on Series X/PC looks like it will stomp GT7 visually at least.

GT7 really dropped the ball being cross gen and lacking content though. I haven’t played GT7 in weeks and it fell off my friends list too. Forza could have the same issues though, who knows.

 

[ToyGTone]

A lot of people that i know have already abandoned GT7 by this point, myself included so you can argue that it's already being left behind a bit. It doesn't mean that hardcore GT fans won't stick around though.

On the other hand, this isn't something unique to Gran Turismo unfortunately as i find other modern racing games to not be as enjoyable as it used to be.

As one or two have already expressed similar opinions to mine...

This more or less explains my time with any racing game recently. They're all so stagnate and get boring fairly fast.

Forza Horizon 5 got boring pretty fast for me after a week or two while the XB1 Era Forza Motorsport games just never clicked with me right. They aren't bad games by any means but they are nowhere the levels of the x360 era. Don't get me started on modern NFS or codemasters games.

I recently played NFS Hot Pursuit 2010 and Gran Turismo 4, somehow i had more fun with these two old games than most 8th/9th gen racers out there.

 

[hardvibes]

Forza Motorsports could have the same issues for all we know.

I have pretty much quit playing GT7 already due to lack of content, so I’d hope Forza has more with all the time they’ve taken to develop it.

Turn 10 already made 2 huge mistakes over the years.
FM5: low car count, less content in general, tokens/microtransactions controversy, no night races, no weather.
FM7: a one time reward for the owners of the ultimate edition (IIRC), loot boxes controversy, S-A-B-C-D lobbies weren't there the first few months (IIRC), penalty system arrived 1 or 2 years after release.

The community was very vocal, T10 heard the complaints and did a 180.
They're not gonna make the same mistakes again.

 

[Imari]

I'll roll with IMO here, but whether it's a know schedule or not, the opportunity to acquire any specific car is never a 'do it now or it's gone forever' scenario in GT7.

Does it need to be? Or is it enough to have it as "buy it now, or it'll be gone for the next few days or weeks or months"?

It's not designed to be absolutely inaccessible. It doesn't need to be. It's designed to be vaguely inconvenient to the player in the hope of encouraging an "optimal" car collecting strategy that includes an uncomfortable amount of grinding or microtransactions.

Those that can't be bothered and just open their wallet are more than likely the type to do so anyway, regardless of the situation.

Of course. That's why they're called whales. But the game devs are still going to try and encourage those people to spend as much money as possible.

As for the system being 'carefully crafted' ... I'm not so sure that's a fair assessment.

You think it's what, then? Lazily crafted? That Polyphony ended up with a game with the lowest payouts per hour, stingy roulette tickets, invites, and rotating stock car dealers by accident?

We can argue over whether it's well crafted, and it's ultimately pretty hard to know without access to the payment data. The point of a microtransaction system is to generate payments, and if we can't see that we're largely pissing into the wind.

I will maintain that it's carefully crafted though. Polyphony went through and did all these things with purpose and care. We can't know whether they were/are effective without inside Polyphony information, but we can be pretty sure that these professional developers didn't just pull these very specific systems out of their collective buttockses.

I mean if LCD cars were Cr.10mill and they sold Credit packages at Cr.9mill a pop ... sure.

Right. Instead they've got LCD cars that constantly change prices.

Just avoiding the use of one very visible and well hated microtransaction technique isn't proof that there isn't careful design. They could have considered doing this, and then very reasonably thought about the backlash that games get for doing this (as seen in things like Diablo Immortal) and decided to use less obvious techniques.

If I was designing microtransactions, I'd put a fair bit of thought into how I would stage things to allow people like you ammunition to try and convince people that it's not that bad. I feel like that would be very clever, designing it so that the playerbase was coming up with reasons why the game isn't really even trying that hard to get the playerbase's money. Why do marketing and damage control when people will do it to themselves?

 

[breeminator]

The ray-tracing graphics, the dynamic environment, the car model detail

I feel like we've got to the stage where graphics are mostly good enough to not be an obstacle to enjoying a game, and games are now mostly differentiated by gameplay elements. For example, Hitman 3 recently got an update to give it RT and DLSS, and it now looks really really good. So have I played it for 10 hours a day since then? No, because I'm just not that excited by its gameplay mechanics. They could release a version that is indistinguishable from looking at real life video footage, and it wouldn't make me want to play the game any more, because the graphics are already not an obstacle to enjoying the game. Same for GT7 and FM, the gameplay elements are the main thing now, the graphics in GT7 are fine, as will be the graphics in FM.

 

[immortaljelly]

Well, it would be great if we get another good sim to play (especially one that's on Game Pass, meaning I'll get day one access!) but going on past form I really doubt it. Forza' has fantastic presentation and graphics, but the driving has always been absolutely miles behind Gran Turismo. There's no reason to think that won't be the case with next year's game.

 

[HyperSpeeder]

You should probably not guess. The monetisation in FM7, FH4 and FH5 has been limited and very up-front. People are free not to like paid DLC, but there's a difference between that and the sort of FOMO based microtransactions that we see in GT7. Paying for expansions and car packs is one thing, paying for in-game currency because the economy is tuned to be just on the frustrating side of barely acceptable is another.

Monetization in FM7 was planned and there's official statement from T10 regarding adding tokens to the game. However...

It didn't surface because of the other issue. The backlash against FM7 wasn't about the MTX, it was about T10 nerfing the VIP pack's credits bonus. Opposite to past Forzas, where you got a permanent 50% credits bonus on top of your earnings, in FM7 they were a 5-time limited bonus. The "letter to the community" was addressing that, not the MTX.

There was a full monetization plan in motion for FM7 (and presumably FH4) and the only reason T10 backed off on it was because FM7 was a huge commercial flop that made FM almost irrelevant compared to FH, so they had to go back to playing good guy in order to bring people back. Which is what Esaki is doing there today.

Regarding DLC in Forza, there's cases of cars which have been DLC in more than 1 game, cars brought back from the 360 days and sold as DLC (sometimes more than once)... Not the best way to handle DLC. Criticize PD all you want, but every paid DLC in recent games was completely new content.

It's very difficult to understand why some people go out of their way to defend T10 and PG, even omitting information (for what?), when neither studio has been exactly fair when it comes to monetization.

 

[Nielsen]

The creative direction of Forza Motorsport generally doesn't appeal to me, and the main thing that can make me want to play it would be in the event it succeeds combining the car lists of FM7, FH4 and FH5. That would bring it close to having around 1000 cars at launch, but I’m not holding my breath. I’d really appreciate if Turn 10 would look back and revisit the elegant presentation of FM6 with a moody soundtrack reminiscent of FM4, but nothing indicates they’re heading in that direction.

As underwhelming and frustrating GT7 is on multiple levels, I really prefer its calm demeanour over all the extroverted noise surrounding Forza in recent years.