Wouldn't you rather it be the 'Real Racing Simulator'?

[dancardesigner]

If Kaz drove a WS6 he would include it. Modern American muscle baby. New gen Camaro's, Mustang's, and Charger's are all watered down. WS6 Trans Am is a straight line American dream.

I am fairly certain that car appeals to the US market as much as NASCAR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN50ESsOWTI&feature=related
That clip screams USA.

I never even see that car over here and yet it is one of my favourite cars. Most people in the UK don't even know what the Firebird/Trans Am is, however in America like you say it is one of the most popular vehicles, up there with the Camaro and Stang. This car however is only an example i am refering to, there are many other popular cars that have not being included, and should have. Now wether Kaz could obtain the license is debateable, however it seems funny to me how he can manage to put other much rarer cars in the game, some of which people arn't all familiar with like say for example the Gillet Vertigo. I don't mind the odd few slow cars, off couse it adds to GT, but the thing is such a large proportion of the cars in GT4 are mediocre, not to mention how many different variations they do of the same car.
There are a lot of British sport and American muscle cars lacking from the list in my oppinion.

 

[FoolKiller]

Most people in the UK don't even know what the Firebird/Trans Am is, however in America like you say it is one of the most popular vehicles, up there with the Camaro and Stang.

That must explain why declining sales caused it to be discontinued. Sorry, but I hated the fourth gen.

Now wether Kaz could obtain the license is debateable, however it seems funny to me how he can manage to put other much rarer cars in the game, some of which people arn't all familiar with like say for example the Gillet Vertigo. I don't mind the odd few slow cars, off couse it adds to GT, but the thing is such a large proportion of the cars in GT4 are mediocre, not to mention how many different variations they do of the same car.
There are a lot of British sport and American muscle cars lacking from the list in my oppinion.

So, are you sticking to your theory that he says he wants an encyclopedia of cars, but made a concious decision to leave out some classic muscle or popular exotics so that he could put in some boring and bland small cars?

And in what world does that actually make any sense?

Can you really not see that there is a whole lot of different variables that goes into this kind of thing? I mean, he nearly had Lamborghini's with GT3, but a contractual issue caused it to get pulled before Europe and the US got the game. That alone should point out that some cars aren't in the game, but he wants them.

Do you seriously think that Kaz prefers small "boring" cars over exotics, despite what he has in his garage?

 

[Tenacious D]

I don't mind the odd few slow cars, off couse it adds to GT, but the thing is such a large proportion of the cars in GT4 are mediocre, not to mention how many different variations they do of the same car.

I really think you're overstating things. I believe the average horsepower in the GT4 car list is about 330 hp. I know race cars skew that upwards, but that's simply because they're part of the variety and there are so many. If the average hp was something like 120, even with a bunch of high power race cars, then you'd have a point.

I imagine you're probably thinking of Skylines with your variations remark, but that's a straw horse too. Modeling several versions of a car are a simple matter of a few polygon facets being touched up. In the case of the Midnight Purple R34, just a color change. I'm one of those guys who owns about 20 Skylines in GT4, and it's not because they were prize cars I was too lazy to get rid of. I bought most of them, hunted down in the used car lot. And having them in the game doesn't mean a Camaro or two were ignored.

You have to face facts. Being in Japan means that it's a lot simpler to have tons of popular and obscure Japanese cars driven down to a local facility to be scanned, recorded, speced and tested. You must have no idea what's involved in scheduling a big car meet in another country, chartering an airliner and shipping overseas dozens of technicians and tons of technical equipment. It's an entirely different challenge. As Famine and others have said, there are problems getting all the cars from around the world encoded properly for a GT game. Licensing has to be okayed. Schedules are missed. Sometimes, the cars break down and just can't make it, and there often aren't a thousand models available to grab one at a moment's notice.

And one thing we've all been forgetting to mention is the car list isn't even out yet. I think, really, you should wait for that before holding your head in dismay. Yes, undoubtedly Japanese cars will dominate. Yes, there will be lots of Skylines. But who knows how many American and European cars will be included? I'd think anyone would be happy knowing that 1000 cars are going to be included period! It would be impossible for 500 of them to be Skylines.

 

[dancardesigner]

That must explain why declining sales caused it to be discontinued. Sorry, but I hated the fourth gen.


So, are you sticking to your theory that he says he wants an encyclopedia of cars, but made a concious decision to leave out some classic muscle or popular exotics so that he could put in some boring and bland small cars?

And in what world does that actually make any sense?

Can you really not see that there is a whole lot of different variables that goes into this kind of thing? I mean, he nearly had Lamborghini's with GT3, but a contractual issue caused it to get pulled before Europe and the US got the game. That alone should point out that some cars aren't in the game, but he wants them.

Do you seriously think that Kaz prefers small "boring" cars over exotics, despite what he has in his garage?

With that post all you have basically done is prove that you are just trying to disregard anything i say. Why have that dig about the Bird, and then make a statement about declining sales. To say the Firebird was not popular and an automotive ledgend is stupid.
Now to answer the second bit. It is not so much that i think Kaz wants to put crap cars in and leave good ones out, but rather he puts in what he wants, not neccessarily what the public want. Most people don't want 50 variations of Skyline, they are all basically the same thing. Off course he can't obtain the licenses for some cars, or rather mostly manufacturers, but there are a lot of popular cars missing, whose manufacturer license has already being obtained.

 

[Famine]

I don't mind the odd few slow cars, off couse it adds to GT, but the thing is such a large proportion of the cars in GT4 are mediocre

As I'm sure you know, I ran a B-Spec Bob test of every car in GT4. The conditions were:

1000/100/100/100 trained Bob
Arcade Mode
Setting of 4 for all but FWD cars (set to 3 - he'd understeer too much on 4 to be consistent).
3 laps of Trial Mountain, fastest lap taken

I put all the laptimes in a big Excel file, ranked by laptime and uploaded them to the GT4 forum. I fannied about a bit with colours to demarcate the various bands and I calculated the "average" laptime for the "average" car in GT4.

Do you know what two cars came closest to the average laptime? They were the 1995 Mitsubishi GTO/3000GT VR-4 and the 1995 Nissan Skyline GT-R.


The "average" car in a game with a "large proportion of... mediocre" cars was the first road car to break the 8 minute lap on the Nuerburgring.

This kinda suggests that there's a lot smaller proportion of mediocre cars than you might think.

but there are a lot of popular cars missing, whose manufacturer license has already being obtained.

But if they cannot get to them to model them, they cannot include them.

 

[Biggles]

Wow, I never realized there were so many Cappuchino devotes on GTPlanet! I'm going to expect the 45PP online races to be the most popular category when GT5 makes an appearance.

Speaking for myself, I'm kind of appalled that the car count is rising to 1,000. Where will it end? 1,500, 2,000, 5,000? I guess it would be OK if it were possible for PD to model all those cars & still add the other features required to stay at the cutting edge: decent AI, damage, weather, TOD etc. But I'm a bit doubtful that this is possible.

GT may have been very successful in the past, but I would guess that is partly due to having been an originator of the "driving-sim" genre on consoles & therefore having a significant leg-up on the competition, & also based on the ability to provide industry-leading graphic sophistication - something which is always a draw for the uncommitted gamer. Forza, & possibly some other racing games, have started to close the gap on GT in areas where PD once was supreme, & have pulled ahead in areas where PD has always been weak. I think it's quite possible that if GT5 proves not to live up to expectations, that GT's position as the pre-eminent racing/driving sim in the console market will be threatened.

While it may be true that a percentage of GT fans do place great importance on the huge car count, I have a suspicion that overall sales depend more on PD producing great graphics than anything else. Personally, I don't have much interest in driving cars like the Cappuchino. If I'm going to drive a "slow" car, I would rather it be some amazing vintage model like the '58 250 Testarossa featured in FC - classic, beautiful, rare, & challenging to drive - rather than some 1990's econobox.

My business model for GT would be for PD to produce a "core" game with a cross-section of cars of all types - perhaps 250 - 300 cars maximum - together with industry-leading game features: AI, damage, online functionality etc. etc. This core game could be put out every 2 - 3 years instead of every 4 - 5 years as seems to be happening now. That core could be supplemented over time with DLC packs: the Sports Pack, Racing Pack, Nascar Pack, Rally Pack, &, of course, for Famine & his "Encylopedic" crew: the "Econobox" Pack (sure to be the most popular DLC pack )

This would please the average gamer looking to get a new racing game with great graphics every couple of years, the sim fan looking for great racing physics & functionality, & the "Encyclopedics", well, they would have to pay a little extra for the DLC packs - after all, they're a captive audience: where else can they turn to to get a game featuring classics like the '93 Honda Beat, The '01 Opel Corsa Comfort & the '95 Diahtsu Move? 👍

 

[Tenacious D]

As one of the "Encyclopediacs," let me differ with you on this.

While I don't expect later additions to the Gran Turismo universe to take nearly as long, seeing that the lion's share of hard work is overwith, 4 - 5 years would still be acceptable to me. And the reason is this:

1. DLC will add longevity to the series. And I don't expect that each car pack will only have 10 cars, which likewise, I hope T10 is done with that idea too. I'd hope GT5 and F3 would have more substantial packs for more money, say 25 to 50 cars for $10-20 US, and track packs of 3 to 5. They could release these every 4 to 6 months, and hopefully the tracks will incorporate properly into single player mode as well. And we could have mega packs of a year's worth of DLC for say $40-50. Such extra content will add life to any racing game. Just look at how iRacing survives, one game that just keeps growing, at incredible expense I might add!

2. Other racing games will fill the gap. Eutechnyx/System 3 seem to be on a 1 to 2 year stride with their Ferrari Challenge line. The same for other racing game makers such as Codemasters and Turn 10 if you have a 360. If you ever get tired of GT5, you should have another game available to feed your need for a new racing experience.

3. Other games period will fill the gap. Very few PS3 owners bought/will buy a PS3 just to play GT5 and watch movies. Yes, a few million bought PS3s just for watching Blu-Rays, but that's another market entirely. Most PS3 gamers will be playing games, more than a few. While I'm a bit above average for PS3 games owned, I have 16 right now and will be buying many more in the years to come, and keeping them. We all need a break from game rut, as even the coolest Uncharted, Ratchet & Clank, LittleBigPlanet and Metal Gear Solid can become routine. The same for GT5. Game variety will give us something to go to and buy into, giving us a break from GT5 and giving other developers some luuv. And then when we jones to burn some rubber on or offline, GT5 will be there waiting for us.

4. The philosophy of the Gran Turismo philosopher himself, Kazunori Yamauchi, is just different that way, and that's the way it will be until he passes the baton to someone else. And I hope he's the same way.

I posted in the Forza "definitive" thread that I think Turn 10 and Polyphony should just forget the other exists, and produce the game that moves them. And if Kazunori takes five years for each game, I don't see that as a problem. Well... it is a problem in a way, because I see GT5 looming and I can't buy it yet!

 

[Northstar]

My business model for GT would be for PD to produce a "core" game with a cross-section of cars of all types - perhaps 250 - 300 cars maximum - together with industry-leading game features: AI, damage, online functionality etc. etc. This core game could be put out every 2 - 3 years instead of every 4 - 5 years as seems to be happening now. That core could be supplemented over time with DLC packs: the Sports Pack, Racing Pack, Nascar Pack, Rally Pack, &, of course, for Famine & his "Encylopedic" crew: the "Econobox" Pack (sure to be the most popular DLC pack )

This was their original plan back in the GT HD days and it got blasted when they unveiled the concept. I'm guessing the reaction would be about the same today.

 

[FLASH48]

I would take an even amount of road and race cars! And of the supposed 1000 cars, i will probably only drive 250 of them! Maybe!!

 

[JohnBM01]

I think there's a reason why it isn't the "Real Racing Simulator." The big reason- Gran Turismo is not a pure racing sim. Most of what you do is race, but the model put forth isn't a serious racing model. Those of you who follow my YouTube channel know that I made a video about if making GT5 more hardcore would fancy more people than its current model. Gran Turismo will always be considered child's play to the GTR or iracing.com types. GT is more focused primarily on taking commercially-available cars (including concepts and tuner cars) and taking them to the track than a definite emphasis on pure racing. And it isn't like the GT series has a model which really engages you in the racing department. It's seen more as the driving simulator than a racing simulator, though the harshest critics will stress that Gran Turismo isn't seriously dedicated in either department.

Until the GT series (and I am a GT fan) has a competitive racing/driving model and a real emphasis on racing than car collecting, then it's still going to be the Real DRIVING simulator. Would I want it to be the real racing simulator? I made my point earlier- the game series doesn't have enough character to really market and execute a proper racing sim model. And then too, how would you make this a real racing simulator while not totally alienating what the Gran Turismo series has always been about and how it's always been played? Really, I don't care if it's called the real driving simulator or the real racing simulator, I still regard it as my favorite racing game series of all time regardless of any slogans or tags. That, to me, is more important than debating this series be the real driving or racing simulator.

 

[Tenacious D]

I certainly understand your points, John, although mostly I see the majority of them as a matter of public perception. Personally, given a good enough physics implementation in a GT game, I see no reason why it couldn't be structured to include serious motorsports. Take for example the inclusion of NASCAR and WRC. While the cars could be incorporated in a "sandbox" fashion as GT and Forza have always been, I see numerous posts from members calling on Kaz to follow more of a season structure reminiscent of the season the real sports follow, even if it's shortened considerably. And I sympathize with that view a lot. I see no reason to advertise the two motorsports if the only thing that would be incorporated are the cars and a handful of liveries. And I see no reason that this couldn't be extended to other forms of racing, such as DTM, ALMS, BTCC, Super GT, Formula 1 etc.

I do find this statement of yours to be curious:

I made my point earlier- the game series doesn't have enough character to really market and execute a proper racing sim model.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, as I think Gran Turismo more than any other racing game oozes character. Is it the fact that street cars make up 80% or so of the car list? Do you think the physics model lacks something accurate? Do you think it's that darn public perception of the game, that gamers wouldn't be attracted to a Season or Career Mode alongside Arcade and GT Modes?

Personally, I think it's the opposite. I find PC sims to be rather sterile, lifeless things myself, although to be sure, the games don't offer the allure of cash prizes and prize cars, the graphics are generally sucky, and the car list is a tiny fraction of what we get in most GT games. They're narrowly focused on pro race cars and pro racing, and that they do well.

Take the new Drift Mode. That kind of came out of left field, but not, as it's really popular. But look at how well it just bolted right in, so to speak. I don't see why a Season and Career Mode couldn't co-exist happily with the usual GT modes and drifting. No one would have to touch them if they didn't want to, such as the Rally stages in Gran Turismo. Some won't want to get near NASCAR.

I think Gran Turismo is grand enough in scope and vision to incorporate anything and everything in motorsports, including modes that stick you in the thick of one style of racing for a virtual season. And anything that makes Gran Turismo a bigger game is okay in my book.

 

[Leonidae]

No, it's just perfect as it is. Real Racing Simulator implies that there would be only hardcore racing machines, that need lots of skill to drive at the limits, and that wouldn't even guarantee success. Real Driving simulator on the other hand has multiple tier of different performance levels, from Kei-cars to Zonda, and everyone can find the car that suits him.

 

[Biggles]

if Kazunori takes five years for each game, I don't see that as a problem. Well... it is a problem in a way, because I see GT5 looming and I can't buy it yet!

Well that's the whole point - it's been looming for a couple of years now!

Other racing games will fill the gap.

That's all very well, but is that something in PD's best interests, allowing other racing games to gain a foothold?

I would take an even amount of road and race cars! And of the supposed 1000 cars, i will probably only drive 250 of them! Maybe!!

That's the other point - give us 250 cars to drive 2 years earlier & then add the other cars as DLC packs for people who want them.

This was their original plan back in the GT HD days and it got blasted when they unveiled the concept. I'm guessing the reaction would be about the same today.

Whatever they do they're going to get criticism. But IMO releasing a game that relies mostly on great graphics & a massive number of cars isn't going to cut it any more. Releasing big DLC packs IS going to cost GT fans more, but what is their alternative option? Buy another game that doesn't come with any more cars than the "core" version of GT?

A huge, bloated game that is endlessly delayed, & possibly doesn't come fully-featured doesn't appeal to me, & doesn't seem to make good business sense. Producing a more compact game in a shorter amount of time & then adding to it through DLC would be acceptable to me & would potentially make PD more money.

Well, we'll see: if PD manages to pull off the quantity AND the quality then more power to them. But if GT5 comes out without fixing GT's long-standing issues & instead provides hundreds & hundreds of cars that I have no real interest in driving, then I won't be impressed...

 

[ralph89]

Back in GT4 days I was racing a Mini cooper at suzuka online with 5 of my friends using the same car. It's probably the best racing game experience I ever had on entire GT game. I hope GT5 private match bring back the memories and fun of slow cars.

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

the closest racing comes from cars with limited HP, even in real life, just take WTCC versus F1 for example

I love the idea of an online career, how much fun would that be !!!

 

[Biggles]

Back in GT4 days I was racing a Mini cooper at suzuka online with 5 of my friends using the same car. It's probably the best racing game experience I ever had on entire GT game. I hope GT5 private match bring back the memories and fun of slow cars.

I don't have a problem including "slow" cars - they can be fun to race with (in fact, in GT5P I don't much enjoy the 750 - 800 PP racing). But do you need a couple of hundred "slow" cars?!

FC came with a total of 26 different cars - I've spent over 250 hours playing FC & I still haven't driven some of the cars. Same thing with GT5P's roster of cars. Furthermore, as any online racer will appreciate, to actually be competitive in online racing you've got to put many hours practice in on a single car model...

on each track!

OK: if there are people who want to drive the '93 Honda Beat - no problem. But don't hold up the game while you model dozens of similar types of cars. Get the game out, then add the Honda Beat as DLC for those people who are desperate to drive it.

 

[ikral]

Hmmmm....about GTR, it is miles away from GT5P with its physical model. I drove it with steering wheel, and GT5P is just much more realistic. GTR is last gen in every way imaginable. On PC, only Live for Speed can measure with GT5P regarding realism.

 

[steve30x]

Whatever they do they're going to get criticism. But IMO releasing a game that relies mostly on great graphics & a massive number of cars isn't going to cut it any more. Releasing big DLC packs IS going to cost GT fans more, but what is their alternative option? Buy another game that doesn't come with any more cars than the "core" version of GT?

Yes they will get criticised whatever they do (Just like what your post just did). Also its your and few others opinion that a massive ammount of cars dont cut it any more. I absolutely love the massive ammount of cars including the slow cars.

Hmmmm....about GTR, it is miles away from GT5P with its physical model. I drove it with steering wheel, and GT5P is just much more realistic. GTR is last gen in every way imaginable. On PC, only Live for Speed can measure with GT5P regarding realism.

Actually NetKar Pro is much better than Live For Speed n almost every way. The only two areas its lacking is ccontent of cars and tracks.

 

[Jay]

iRacing is another great PC sim in terms of physics too. Much better than GTR IMO.

 

[Sureboss]

the game series doesn't have enough character to really market and execute a proper racing sim model.

It's the most successful diving/racing game in computer gaming history. It has innovated the whole genre and is the perfect marketing tool. Not only for the driving enthusiasts but it has made many bands popular through iconic tracks.

 

[dancardesigner]

Well i think Rfactor is far ahead in terms of Force feedback. Download the demo and take the BMW F1 for a spin and you will instantly realise the difference.

 

[G.T.Ace]

BMW F1 rFactor demo?

 

[steve30x]

the ForceFeedback in rFactor wouldnt touch the FFB in NetKar Pro. NKP has the most realistic FFB I have ever felt in any racing sim

 

[dancardesigner]

the ForceFeedback in rFactor wouldnt touch the FFB in NetKar Pro. NKP has the most realistic FFB I have ever felt in any racing sim

I just downloaded Netkar pro, so have yet to experiment with it, i didn't even know it existed until you mentioned it here.
However i was refering to in comparison to GT5. The complexity of FFB, and also being able to feel the grip threshhold is far superior in Rfactor.

@GTace-When you download the Free demo, you can take the BMWF1 for a spin i think, i installed the free trial i got on disc with my G25 though. Have you not tryed it?

 

[G.T.Ace]

The official rFactor trial is a 60 minutes full game, after that you have to purchase it.
Maybe the demo you got on disc is a different one (and yes, i played the game).

The only demo i know, where you can drive a Formula BMW (although not an F1) is the LFS S2 demo.

 

[Biggles]

Yes they will get criticised whatever they do (Just like what your post just did).

Yes, of course, that was my point. I'm just putting my vote in for the "real racing simulator". As I have explained: I would rather have a smaller quantity of cars, but with all racing features fully implemented (& extra cars available over time through DLC), than compromised racing features & a massive amount of cars at release.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me...

 

[dancardesigner]

The official rFactor trial is a 60 minutes full game, after that you have to purchase it.
Maybe the demo you got on disc is a different one (and yes, i played the game).

The only demo i know, where you can drive a Formula BMW (although not an F1) is the LFS S2 demo.

Actually coming to think of it i think the 60 minute version also has the BMW SAUBER F1 because i remember downloading it, and noticed the tyre textures had being improved over the version on disc. The trouble with that stupid 60minute trial though is that you can not reinstall it, unless you completly rewipe your hard drive and do a fresh install.

Here you go

 

[G.T.Ace]

So are you talking about a mod or a official car in the game?
My rFactor trial had only 3 cars to choose from in the beginning.

 

[dancardesigner]

So are you talking about a mod or a official car in the game?
My rFactor trial had only 3 cars to choose from in the beginning.

I edited my post, the vid shows the car in the demo

 

[WolfRacer543]

EDIT: Nevermind, thread has progressed since I started typing.