Your Opinions on the H-Shifter/Clutch Changes

[Scaff]

The biggest advantage didn’t come from using the H shifter alone apparently, there were tricks/glitches in the way people were using it that made it even faster than it should have been. People could switch back and forth between shifter and paddles constantly for the quickest shift. From what I’ve read people using these tricks would downshift with the paddles because it was faster and eliminates missed gears, but upshift 1-2 and 2-3 with the shifter because it’s faster than the paddles shift, but shifts 3-4, 4-5 and 5-6 would again use paddles again because the game simulates those shifts fairly quickly in most cars and it removes the chances of a missed gear.

But this it where the real trick happens, most cars have one shift that is the slower than the rest, in a lot of cases it’s 1-2 or 2-3, for this example let’s say the cars slowest shift is 2-3. Here how it works, your in 6th gear and coming to a hairpin, so what you could do was downshift with paddles to 4th, then downshift to 3rd with the stick, then use the paddles again to down shift to second from there for a corner leaving the stick in 3rd, then when exiting the corner instead of using the paddle or stick(because this is the cars slowest shift) to upshift you just hit the clutch and because the stick is in 3rd already the cars skips instantly into 3rd, eliminating the slowest shift, then use paddles again the rest of the way to 6th.

Or from the standing start, again we’ll use shift 2-3 as the cars slowest shift. Before the start you put the stick in 3rd, then downshift to first with the paddles, race start and you take off in first, use paddles to shift to second, then when it time for the slowest shift to 3rd you again just hit the clutch and the car jumps to 3 near instantly and you shoot ahead of other using paddles/DS4’s.

PD should have needed these glitches, not the clutch/shifter.

Exactly, and its not exactly hard to do either.

Hell with the limited budget and staff that Kunos has they managed it with AC, in that switch on H-Pattern and in a car with a H-Pattern you have to use it as it disables the paddles. Car with paddle shift in reality, you can only use the paddles. Match that with accurate shift times by car model and you have a system that doesn't see these kind of exploits.

 

[iFerrari]

An easy solution would be opening up gear ratios in sport mode, but then there will be people critizing "flipped" trasmissions.

 

[L_Kesan]

The biggest advantage didn’t come from using the H shifter alone apparently, there were tricks/glitches in the way people were using it that made it even faster than it should have been. People could switch back and forth between shifter and paddles constantly for the quickest shift. From what I’ve read people using these tricks would downshift with the paddles because it was faster and eliminates missed gears, but upshift 1-2 and 2-3 with the shifter because it’s faster than the paddles shift, but shifts 3-4, 4-5 and 5-6 would again use paddles because the game simulates those shifts fairly quickly in most cars and it removes the chances of a missed gear.

But this it where the real trick happens, most cars have one shift that is the slower than the rest, in a lot of cases it’s 1-2 or 2-3, for this example let’s say the cars slowest shift is 2-3. Here how it works, your in 6th gear and coming to a hairpin, so what you could do was downshift with paddles to 4th, then downshift to 3rd with the stick, then use the paddles again to down shift to second from there for a corner leaving the stick in 3rd, then when exiting the corner instead of using the paddle or stick(because this is the cars slowest shift) to upshift you just hit the clutch and because the stick is in 3rd already the cars skips instantly into 3rd, eliminating the slowest shift, then use paddles again the rest of the way to 6th.

Or from the standing start, again we’ll use shift 2-3 as the cars slowest shift. Before the start you put the stick in 3rd, then downshift to 1st with the paddles, race starts and you take off in 1st, use paddles to shift to 2nd, then when it time for the slowest shift to 3rd you again just hit the clutch and the car jumps to 3 near instantly and you shoot ahead of other using paddles/DS4’s.

PD should have nerfed these glitches, not the clutch/shifter.

Woah that's just crazy no wonder this got nerfed.
However I still think this is not the right solution and more thought could have been given this problem

QUICK FIX only one type of shifting can be allowed in a race you get to select like in forza if it's auto/manual/manual + Clutch /manual+clutch + shifter
No quick swaps between and equal chances for everyone. yes you still would be quicker but with chance to misshift or clutchkick drift

this might actually ruin drifting for manual drifters if I think about it now

 

[Mr P]

...

 

[K3Tuning]

And once again the patch has failed to do that, as its shifted the balance massively the other way and opened up exploits.

Not at all, even tho some are finding ways to negate the closed loop hole they are simply looking for more loop holes. Bravo lol its an on going thing eh, hope the next fix closes this one too.

They just Found they can KEEP some of the unfair advantage, your really mixed up.

Either way still moving in the right direction as far as loop holes closed.

My opinion is PD should fix the slow shifts for everybody but that's somewhat different to closing an exploit / loop hole.

And yet that's whats now happened as its broken the use of the H-Pattern.

Let the trumpets play

And yet that's not whats happened.

Sure is.

I've asked you numerous times now and you have repeatedly avoided answering. Have you tried a H-Pattern and clutch in GTS since the patch?

Ive avoided nothing, I assume you are on point, its been junked. Let the Trumpets play until they can bring it into the game in such a way that shifts cannit be faster than DS4, slower is okay as you CHOOSE to use it just not faster.

Except, as numerous members have been telling you, its not made a fair balance, its shifted the balance the other way and opened up exploits.

Okay but each point has been shown to be wrong. Its clearly more fair even if some people are blind only because they refuse to see..

Why should I not be able to play and discuss the titles I like?

Never said you couldn't, doesn't make MY Opinion or YOURS any more relevant, PD has its own opinion and THAT is the direction it goes.

They do indeed, but given this is a dicsussion forum, I will discuss the effect that has on my enjoyment of the title.

Go ahead, whos stopping you? Being is its a discusdion board go on and discuss, allow me to reply as I will discuss my opinions on opinions posted without a guff for debating it.

I will let the staff deal with it as they please.

Okey Dokey, I wouldnt get so worked up, but thats just me. More to life than listening to some random on the internets opinion and getting huffed over it, but maybe I just got more going on in life.

I have two brothers and you are neither of them.

We all Brothers & Sisters in this world.

As I've said repeatedly I use the H-Pattern and clutch only in cars with them in reality and only outside of Sport mode, as such I know exactly what its like, and unlike you I am also in a direct position to make a comparison between the two.

I dont care, am I supposed to? You only use the shifter on cars with it in real life, so what... This is not all about you, I think you are an incredibly selfish person, the game was not built just to please you, but thats just my opinion, dont let it get to yah Bro.

 

[L_Kesan]

Not at all, even tho some are finding ways to negate the closed loop hole they are simply looking for more loop holes. Bravo lol its an on going thing eh, hope the next fix closes this one too.

They just Found they can KEEP some of the unfair advantage, your really mixed up.

Either way still moving in the right direction as far as loop holes closed.

My opinion is PD should fix the slow shifts for everybody but that's somewhat different to closing an exploit / loop hole.




Let the trumpets play



Sure is.



Ive avoided nothing, I assume you are on point, its been junked. Let the Trumpets play until they can bring it into the game in such a way that shifts cannit be faster than DS4, slower is okay as you CHOOSE to use it just not faster.



Okay but each point has been shown to be wrong. Its clearly more fair even if some people are blind only because they refuse to see..



Never said you couldn't, doesn't make MY Opinion or YOURS any more relevant, PD has its own opinion and THAT is the direction it goes.




Go ahead, whos stopping you? Being is its a discusdion board go on and discuss, allow me to reply as I will discuss my opinions on opinions posted without a guff for debating it.



Okey Dokey, I wouldnt get so worked up, but thats just me. More to life than listening to some random on the internets opinion and getting huffed over it, but maybe I just got more going on in life.



We all Brothers & Sisters in this world.



I dont care, am I supposed to? You only use the shifter on cars with it in real life, so what... This is not all about you, I think you are an incredibly selfish person, but thats jyst my opinion, dont let it get to yah Bro.

I'm sorry but you said yourself it's discussion on particular topic and you are slowly turning it into pestering and provoking and slightly off topic
Being in discussion also means being respectful not patronising. namely in the latter part of your replies if you are starting to get frustrated on already frustrated member don't get it out on him Please, as that would lead to agression.

 

[K3Tuning]

Sure, its a discussion. I dont mean to be pestering but I gues it can seem that way when replying to disected post lol if my replies so pestering they need to stop pestering me with disected post & crying when I reply. Leave it be but thats baloney, keep posting playing Ohhh woah is me, the Digs oh my the Digs. Cry me a river, no sympathies and Boo Hoo, lol come on

Let it go, or is that the issue? You cant let it go.....

 

[L_Kesan]

Sure, its a discussion. I dont mean to be pestering but I gues it can seem that way when replying to disected post lol if my replies so pestering they need to stop pestering me with disected post & crying when I reply. Leave it be but thats baloney, keep posting playing Ohhh woah is me, the Digs oh my the Digs. Cry me a river, no sympathies and Boo Hoo, lol come on

Let it go, or is that the issue? You cant let it go.....

Whilst I appreciate the effort and understand what you are staying One has to always start from themselves unfortunately

Thanks for being understanding and didn't go full defensive

 

[Pigems]

Wow that's some explanation Pigems! Thanks for letting us know how it works 👍

Here's my opinion for anyone interested... I do not agree with the H shifter having such an advantage in acceleration speed as it sort of makes hotlapping the TT events against those tactics pretty pointless 👎 But I certainly do not agree with the solution PD has implemented.. I would be contacting PD reps or help desk if possible and asking if they will refund the price of the H shifter that you specifically bought to get a bit more realism from the game they titled for years as a Simulator? Ok they found this needed patching but talk about drastic measures!!!!

Just because a PC or laptop or most household equipment starts playing up for you doesn't mean take the power out and put the device out to pasture or throw it in the bin.. you look how to fix it and make use of it again! PD needs to consider how much money people have invested to play this game before just making peripherals null and void at the flick of a switch as a quick fix to an issue they should have removed before release day

Hope the public opinions will make them think twice about this :censored:storm they have created and find the real fix for all asap

No worries man, I just recently found out about all this myself, but I feel like everyone should be aware that people were/are doing it.

I had never heard of the 2up/1down glitch until today though, I wonder how long has that’s been going on?

 

[K3Tuning]

Hey I love GT as much as the next Fanboi I just know its got lots and lots of issues, & I accept Kaz and PD have a different vision to mine, if only it was all up to you or me, but then again your vision or my vision may not be good for PD as much as we think it would be. They do know their market better than us. Even though we make it up, its the collective numbers they count to pay their wages & Bills.

 

[CustomX]

Have had a chance to drive a bit tonight on 1.36 update. Here's the synopsis. The clutch was shockingly implemented before this update and has now become even worse due to this delay that's been introduced on upshifts. However if, like me, you didn't bother with the clutch before 1.36, then this update shouldn't affect you at all. Clutchless shifting (using an H shifter) is the same as before. Fast and efficient.

I still don't understand how anyone who drives stick in real life, would bother with the clutch in this game, either before or after this 1.36 update.

 

[poumpoum]

OMG ! I've just discovered this update...

I mainly drive road cars with H shifter . Seriously, at this point they should remove the H shifter feature, it's ridiculous...

They could have disabled the H shifter feature only for Sport Mode... I'm so disappointed

 

[senzr]

Dang it...I was just thinking of selling my manual 5MT WRX project car because the only reason I’m keeping it is to enjoy the transmission (i have a sensible 8AT daily driver). I figured I could get much of the same joy of shifting from GT Sport + Thrustmaster T-GT + TH8 RS + PSVR, so do I still need the WRX in real life? (The Wife complains once in a while)

Because of this lousy update, I guess the WRX will still have a home with me.

I’m a car guy through and through. I used to dream about driving and shifting long before I was old enough to have a driving license. I’ve mastered the art of heel & toe (virtual and real life) from years of watching Best Motoring videos. I’ve used H-pattern shifters with Gran Turismo since GT5P, even with the silly clutch modeling. So this update really sucks for me.

I know PD is doing this for fairness in competition. I play Sport Mode. But I also relax with PSVR + shifter. And let me tell you, the risk of mis-shifting is REAL. Something DS4 and paddle shifters will never understand.

For me, half the joy of driving is shifting. I lament the passing of the Manual Transmission in real life. More manufacturers are dropping it. The latest M5 is an AT for cryin out loud, not even a DCT.

Virtual reality was always the antidote for real life. Not anymore with this update. Thanks a bunch, PD. I put up with a lot of your silly decisions. This takes the cake for me, one of your loyal players who’s been playing since the first GT. I based my console-buying decisions on Gran Turismo. I’ve had at least 3 wheel setups. I had to negotiate a man cave with my wife so I could have space to enjoy GT with a wheel and PSVR. You’ve royally screwed this one up, PD.

The Manual Transmission is dead! Long live the Manual Transmission!!!

Edit: Just wanted to add that I even have a “Gran Turismo: The real driving simulator” windshield banner in my MT WRX. The same one seen on the cars in D1 and N24. I’ve been flying your flag proud for years, PD. Now I realize what a joke “the real driving simulator” has become. Screw you, PD. You’ve literally taken almost every joy I have with my PS4 away from me with this update. This is by far the dumbest thing you’ve done yet.

 

[eltorrente]

The biggest advantage didn’t come from using the H shifter alone apparently, there were/are tricks/glitches in the way people were using it that made it even faster than it should have been. People could switch back and forth between shifter and paddles constantly for the quickest shift. From what I’ve read people using these tricks would downshift with the paddles because it was faster and eliminates missed gears, but upshift 1-2 and 2-3 with the shifter because it’s faster than the paddles shift, but shifts 3-4, 4-5 and 5-6 would again use paddles because the game simulates those shifts fairly quickly in most cars and it removes the chances of a missed gear.

But this it where the real trick happens, most cars have one shift that is the slower than the rest, in a lot of cases it’s 1-2 or 2-3, for this example let’s say the cars slowest shift is 2-3. Here how it works, your in 6th gear and coming to a hairpin, so what you could do was downshift with paddles to 4th, then downshift to 3rd with the stick, then use the paddles again to down shift to 2nd from there for the corner leaving the stick in 3rd, then when exiting the corner instead of using the paddle or stick(because this is the cars slowest shift) to upshift you just hit the clutch and because the stick is in 3rd already the cars skips instantly into 3rd, eliminating the slowest shift, then use paddles again the rest of the way to 6th.

Or from the standing start, again we’ll use shift 2-3 as the cars slowest shift. Before the start you put the stick in 3rd, then downshift to 1st with the paddles, race starts and you take off in 1st, use paddles to shift to 2nd, then when it time for the slowest shift to 3rd you again just hit the clutch and the car jumps to 3rd near instantly and you shoot ahead of others using paddles/DS4’s.

PD should have nerfed these glitches, not the clutch/shifter.

Yeah when I found out people were doing this stuff, I wondered how that could be allowed in the first place.

All they had(have) to do is disable one of the shift methods once the other one is used. So, if you use the H-pattern/Clutch in a session, then the rest of the session the paddles get disabled. If you use the paddles first, the the H-pattern gets disabled. Simple. Also force people to shift with the clutch at all times with an H-pattern, and never allow them to shift without using the clutch.

 

[VBR]

All they had (have) to do is disable one of the shift methods once the other one is used. So, if you use the H-pattern/Clutch in a session, then the rest of the session the paddles get disabled. If you use the paddles first, the H-pattern gets disabled. Simple. Also, force people to shift with the clutch at all times with an H-pattern, and never allow them to shift without using the clutch.

That's some pure unadulterated common sense right there. But sadly, common sense seems to be in short supply at Polyphony.

 

[K3Tuning]

I still don't understand how anyone who drives stick in real life, would bother with the clutch in this game, either before or after this 1.36 update.

Me Either. I drive a car with both an alarm and an anti theft manual shifting system.

 

[Turbotwin01]

Thinking about it now, they could have made the downshifts require a blip or slow them down somehow. It would have maybe balanced without banning it or forcing grandma upshifts.

That being said, a think a return to the old system and banning it for competitive online play is still the way to go. All the DS4 users who voted in favour of the change don't understand that even if I didn't have an advantage I'd row my own gears for the fun of it. But now that's ruined and ill be annoyed driving any street car with a stick now.

 

[K3Tuning]

Oh fo Sho dont give up the Project car for any video game Bro. GT never had it right n probably never will. The only true real experience is the real experience.

By the time they figure it all out to make the clutch even similar to real life no cars will be sold with a 3rd pedal any more.

 

[Scaff]

Ive avoided nothing,

You've just avoided answering the question again, so you clearly have.

Its a simple one with a yes/no answer, and I can only assume from you lack of response that its a no, and as such you have no real idea of exactly how its been impacted.

I assume you are on point, its been junked. Let the Trumpets play until they can bring it into the game in such a way that shifts cannit be faster than DS4, slower is okay as you CHOOSE to use it just not faster.

I thought you wanted fairness? Would that not mean you want parity between the two systems?

Okay but each point has been shown to be wrong. Its clearly more fair even if some people are blind only because they refuse to see.

H-Pattern shifting is now slower than paddles, carries a greater risk of miss-shifts, requires heel and toe for downshifts and requires you to remove a hand from the wheel. They have most certainly not achieved parity if that was the aim.

Never said you couldn't, doesn't make MY Opinion or YOURS any more relevant, PD has its own opinion and THAT is the direction it goes.

It does indeed, but listing to customers is a move PD have claimed to be trying to make, and in that regard it does make views relevant.

Go ahead, whos stopping you? Being is its a discusdion board go on and discuss, allow me to reply as I will discuss my opinions on opinions posted without a guff for debating it.

Okey Dokey, I wouldnt get so worked up, but thats just me. More to life than listening to some random on the internets opinion and getting huffed over it, but maybe I just got more going on in life.

You go for it, I've been here long enough to know what kind of posting style leads to long term membership and what kind self-destructs.

Don't mistake that for me getting 'worked up' by your posting manner, that would be an assumption and a very inaccurate one at that.

We all Brothers & Sisters in this world.

That must make relationships tricky for you.

I dont care, am I supposed to? You only use the shifter on cars with it in real life, so what... This is not all about you, I think you are an incredibly selfish person, the game was not built just to please you, but that's just my opinion,

Once again I've not said it was, or posted in a manner close to that, you have simply ignored what I've actually posted, which is a range of options that would have solved the issues for all parties.

dont let it get to yah Bro.

I'm not and i'm still not your brother.[/QUOTE]

 

[K3Tuning]

I would suggest you just move on Bruh, its not worth getting all into a Huff over. I'm not that important, or at least I shouldn't be can't we all just get along lol

If you really want Me to keep on going I would if you agree not to get all pissey crying over digs and Huff n Puff cause I called you Bro, Bruh... You just seem too sensitive to hash it out like a man.

I was right tho, you cant stop can you... Can't let it go, cant move on, but its ME who has a problem lol....

 

[1241Penguin]

My first experience with GT with a H-shifter and clutch was back with GT5 in 2011; 8 years later they still can't get it right lol.

The most frustrating part of using an H-shifter and clutch was being tossed into neutral if you shift too quickly for the game's liking. That is not realistic and quite annoying really. The smart solution would be to implement transmission and clutch wear/damage if you power shift or shift very quickly too many times but that's too much for PD I guess.

While we're on the subject, why is GT's drivetrain simulation such an abomination? It got worst in GTS where upshifting with the DS4 or paddles in manual cars sounds like the clutch is slipping through each upshift. This is also true for semi-automatics like the Enzo and Aventador where the upshifts sound like the clutch is slipping when in reality the changes should be instantaneous. Ditto the SLR McLaren which has an automatic transmission of all things...

 

[nfsp2kTW]

If PD care about fairness, should limit use of the handle + ATe, so that the fairest

the H-Shifter/Clutch Changes is a ridiculous update

 

[senzr]

Oh fo Sho dont give up the Project car for any video game Bro. GT never had it right n probably never will.

I know and agree, nothin like the real thing. But I’ve been having some Marie Kondo moments, thinking of getting rid of old stuff that doesn’t bring me joy. The WRX brings me joy for sure, but it’s taking up space in the house, and I haven’t gone for track days in ages. Not to mention the financial burden of fuel, tyres, brake pads and maintenance. GT Sport with wheel, shifter and PSVR gave me much of the same joy at a fraction of the cost, with more convenience. And manual shifting is a huge part of that experience. I should say “was”, since this update has killed it.

I still don't understand how anyone who drives stick in real life, would bother with the clutch in this game, either before or after this 1.36 update.

I persisted through the years, and mastered the quirks enough to have 80-90% shifting/downshifting (heel & toe) success rate. It ain’t perfect...far from it. But I practiced to get around the clutch model and was having fun.

A lot of you folks who welcome this nerfing of H-gate shifters conveniently ignore is that shifting takes practice, physical hand-eye coordination, and the risk of mis-shifting is real. You guys press a button or pull a paddle. We clutch shifters have to engage 3 of our limbs to dance on the pedals, especially during heel & toe downshifts. That takes lots of practice and skill.

If you wanna argue about fairness, then I’ve gotta bring up the issue of aids and assists: traction control, active stability management, countersteering assistance, and to some extent, ABS. Personally, I play with all aids off with ABS Weak (for more trailbraking feel). Am I making it harder for myself against those if you who use aids? For sure! But that’s MY CHOICE, for the sake of immersion and realism. It’s already acknowledged that CSA can make laptimes faster. Those who seek to use every advantage possible within the rules for a few tenths will use it. I won’t ever, but that’s a personal choice.

Unfortunately, the quest for competitive edge also extends to those who abuse the silly clutch model and use shifters with paddles, again for the sake of those few tenths. And these guys are ruining it for the rest of us who use the shifter as it’s meant to be used.

Again, if fairness was the issue, ASM, TCS and CSA should be banned in Sport Mode, so everyone is on a level playing field. But PD chose to punish the minority who have shifters in the interest of fairness for the masses who drive with DS4. Which is ridiculous.

But now that I think about it, PD is acting like a car manufacturer who has to decide between continuing to offer manuals for a small vocal enthusiast minority, or saving money cos most people don’t care for manuals anymore. It’s widely documented that BMW only kept making manual M cars for the vocal American market.

So maybe PD did what a car manufacturer would...please the masses who don’t use shifters. It sucks, but those of us who love shifting are a dying breed. PD aren’t saving any money by shunning us shifters, but they’re making it easier to prioritize e-sports fairness. In the end, I think that’s the choice they probably had to make in a short term fix for fairness.

Hopefully when they have more time, they can speed up the paddle/button shift times, and de-nerf clutch shifters and reach some kinda equilibrium. One can hope.

 

[Scaff]

I would suggest you just move on Bruh, its not worth getting all into a Huff over. I'm not that important, or at least I shouldn't be can't we all just get along lol

If you really want Me to keep on going I would if you agree not to get all pissey crying over digs and Huff n Puff cause I called you Bro, Bruh... You just seem too sensitive to hash it out like a man.

I was right tho, you cant stop can you... Can't let it go, cant move on, but its ME who has a problem lol....

You seem to have forgotten to quote me, I wonder why that was.

As I said feel free to keep making assumptions, its doesn't make accurate, and I understand that the questions I asked and the points I raised may me difficult to answer, but if you wish to end the discussion that's fine with me, we will just leave them unanswered.

 

[K3Tuning]

I know and agree, nothin like the real thing. But I’ve been having some Marie Kondo moments, thinking of getting rid of old stuff that doesn’t bring me joy. The WRX brings me joy for sure, but it’s taking up space in the house, and I haven’t gone for track days in ages. Not to mention the financial burden of fuel, tyres, brake pads and maintenance.

Trust me I know, I go through tires, and tires, and tires. Buddy at my tire spot loves me lol, plus when tracking cars, things break. I always upgrade when I break something but then something else goes. Im at the point my shell and doors are the only things stock lol I don't add up the bills cuz that would be too sane. I prefer to keep on going with my head in the sand over how much I've put into it.

GT Sport with wheel, shifter and PSVR gave me much of the same joy at a fraction of the cost, with more convenience. And manual shifting is a huge part of that experience. I should say “was”, since this update has killed it.

I persisted through the years, and mastered the quirks enough to have 80-90% shifting/downshifting (heel & toe) success rate. It ain’t perfect...far from it. But I practiced to get around the clutch model and was having fun.

This has been an issue as long as I've owned GTS some cars with H patern shifters have terribly slow shifting. Its terribly awkward and kinda makes you think What The Heck was PD thinking. It sucks you too have to deal with it now but its more fair that you do. That's not saying this was the best fix or solution. I think the stupid shifting needs to be fixed, but in a way that leaves no advantages to be had. We can all speculate on what the best solution may be but PD does its own thing more often then not, this being an issue for all is better for everybody as a whole as now we all have a problem and are Unighted on our wants for a solution that's fair for all. Previously many had no problem since they found ways to use the crappy system 80/90% and didn't experience the retarded shifts others did, now you do, now its important to you'd guys this gets fixed

A lot of you folks who welcome this nerfing of H-gate shifters conveniently ignore is that shifting takes practice, physical hand-eye coordination, and the risk of mis-shifting is real. You guys press a button or pull a paddle. We clutch shifters have to engage 3 of our limbs to dance on the pedals, especially during heel & toe downshifts. That takes lots of practice and skill.

Not ignored.

With zero disrespect intended, its irrelevant. Let me explain. As long as many are manipulating the video game so that they can get through the gears faster than somebody without the clutch that is not a relevant factor. This is an E-sport title on a console after all not a PC video game trying to be more of an actual racing Simulator. GTS is not even the real driving Simulator (well no GT has ever really been) Now I'm not disrespecting your shifting talent.

In real life I drive a manual car with a proper clutch, cable clutch on top of it Lmfao real ol school. I do not have a PS4 wheel as my PS3 set up was not PS4 compatible I sold it. I thought the clutch was wrong back in GT5/GT6 days and before this loop hole was nerfed, it was just as bad in GTS having run GTS with a clutch BEFORE the update. It was the same garbage as it was, I only suspect now it is much worse as I have not ran with the clutch since the update but I believe the people posting here, I think I dont have to actually try it since I fully believe its as bad as everybody says it is zero contention. No dispute of that point lol (in case somebody thinks Im avoiding saying something lol) I believe its just as broken as people say it is. Lmfao. Its always been broken in my opinion.

I've also not tried the super expensive clutch pedal sets that try to make the clutch pedal FEEL like an actual clutch pedal with a decent clutch I just dont see any slipping in GTS so it really doesnt matter how good they feel its still all wrong, and In my Opinion not worth waisting time or money on yet. But that's me and my opinion again.

If you wanna argue about fairness, then I’ve gotta bring up the issue of aids and assists: traction control, active stability management, countersteering assistance, and to some extent, ABS. Personally, I play with all aids off with ABS Weak (for more trailbraking feel). Am I making it harder for myself against those if you who use aids? For sure! But that’s MY CHOICE, for the sake of immersion and realism. It’s already acknowledged that CSA can make laptimes faster. Those who seek to use every advantage possible within the rules for a few tenths will use it. I won’t ever, but that’s a personal choice.

I agree, should maybe be a higher class for those not using assist in cockpit cam no hud.

Its still fair tho, not like you cant use them. We choose not to. There are GT6 competitions going on in that section where all assist even SRF is allowed. No way to police the assist so if you could be faster with them by all means use them just dont cry about oh Im only slower because others used assist, if so they should be faster with them too so shut up and prove it, nobody cries about assist since its still fair for all unless you for some reason other than ones you impose on yourself prevent you from using them.

Unfortunately, the quest for competitive edge also extends to those who abuse the silly clutch model and use shifters with paddles, again for the sake of those few tenths. And these guys are ruining it for the rest of us who use the shifter as it’s meant to be used.

Well if you were managing shifts through the gate properly faster than GTS was shifting them for paddles and DS4 even those guys saw unfair advantages.

Again, if fairness was the issue, ASM, TCS and CSA should be banned in Sport Mode, so everyone is on a level playing field. But PD chose to punish the minority who have shifters in the interest of fairness for the masses who drive with DS 4. Which is ridiculous.

Them not being banned keeps it a level playing field unless again for some reason other than those self imposed prevents you from using them if they would make you faster.

Then you have to factor in what classes allow TC, ABS it gets complicated

However I would love to see something like a Full Emersion Class with strict rules on only using the assist the class being raced allows only cockpit mode no hud, even restrict everybody ti a wheel no DS4, but that's me and My wants, not PD vision.

But now that I think about it, PD is acting like a car manufacturer who has to decide between continuing to offer manuals for a small vocal enthusiast minority, or saving money cos most people don’t care for manuals anymore. It’s widely documented that BMW only kept making manual M cars for the vocal American market.

PD has always done its own thing

So maybe PD did what a car manufacturer would...please the masses who don’t use shifters. It sucks, but those of us who love shifting are a dying breed. PD aren’t saving any money by shunning us shifters, but they’re making it easier to prioritize e-sports fairness. In the end, I think that’s the choice they probably had to make in a short term fix for fairness.

Yup I agree

Hopefully when they have more time, they can speed up the paddle/button shift times, and de-nerf clutch shifters and reach some kinda equilibrium. One can hope.

I truly hope so, I think they will but I've been right & wrong before so hard to say.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

My 2 cents on the topic.

It's good that PD recognised the disparity and tried to remove it.
But for my money, they've gone about it in the wrong way.

Tackling the clutch/gearbox for shifters was a good approach, but what was needed was to look into improving the clutch and then altering the paddle shifts to match.
Better for both type of users.
Instead we have no improvement in the paddle shift, and a decline in the clutch/gearbox system for shifters.

Is it now more equal? Sure.
But I think PD could/should find a better solution.


And I will add this ...

If you wanna argue about fairness, then I’ve gotta bring up the issue of aids and assists: traction control, active stability management, countersteering assistance, and to some extent, ABS. Personally, I play with all aids off with ABS Weak (for more trailbraking feel). Am I making it harder for myself against those if you who use aids? For sure! But that’s MY CHOICE, for the sake of immersion and realism. It’s already acknowledged that CSA can make laptimes faster. Those who seek to use every advantage possible within the rules for a few tenths will use it. I won’t ever, but that’s a personal choice.

I can't agree that this is the same thing.
One is simply an in-game menu selection, one which we all have regardless of peripheral, and the choice is up to the user.
The other is an aftermarket product, that is only useful after the purchase of another after market product, and has advantages in it's use compared to those that don't own it through the basic action of changing gears.
Apples and oranges to me.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

From a parity standpoint, I like the change. However, PD went about it in the wrong way in my opinion. Good intention, poor execution.

They should just make all Daily and FIA races use cars with fully customizable (sequential) transmission so the advantage of h-shifter + clutch is nullified. Job done. And while they're at it, improve the clutch simulation so it's on par with other PC sims. Game is overall more realistic, and competitive parity is preserved. Win-win for everyone.

The only people who had an advantage were those who didn't use a clutch when using a H-shifter, a problem of PD's own making that could and should have been the fix (make the clutch compulsory - its not hard given that every other sim on the market manages it)

Using a clutch with a H-Pattern, particularity given how inaccurate PDs clutch modeling is, is a significant disadvantage over shifting manually with a pad. That's based just on shift speeds, without factoring in that a pad user can never miss a shift, something that is far to likely with PD's idea of how a clutch works.

This has nothing to do with people who "dont give a Stuff about anybody but themselves", but about reaching a solution that allows clutch and H-Pattern to work as they do in reality, without providing an unfair advantage. Something that PD coudl do easily simply by fixing the clutch and making its use mandatory when you have a H-Pattern.

What are you talking about? The clutch was the advantage. Using the shifter without the clutch was literally the same as using the paddles, in terms of shift speed.

This whole page is pure misinformation.

I don't drive with h-shifter much since changing to my T-GT from G25 (no space and money for TH8A), so correct me on this, but I believe ARTA is correct.

Previously:
Paddle - fast in cars with FC tranny, slow in cars with manual gearbox (in built lag by the game to simulate clutch time and rowing the gears)
H-shifter only - as above
H-shifter + clutch - fast in cars with FC tranny (though usually not used as it confers no advantage), fast in cars with manual gearbox (though operator dependent and highly increases risk of misshifts if you're not skilled)

Now:
Paddle - no change
H-shifter only - no change
H-shifter + clutch - significantly slower in all conditions (due to added artificial lag by the game)

Now, I have tried h-shifting with clutch to improve my times before the update, but purely because I'm not skilled enough I cannot get anywhere near my times with paddles, even with the advantage of faster shift times. So in my opinion, fast drivers will always be fast and the clutch advantage is only really relevant if you're gunning for the top 10 time trial spots. For the rest of us, this change isn't really going to change the pecking order. What PD has done though is ruin the enjoyment and simulation of h-shifter and clutch. I can certainly symphatise with the frustration of people who like to drive cars in game the way they're meant to be driven IRL.

The biggest advantage didn’t come from using the H shifter alone apparently, there were/are tricks/glitches in the way people were using it that made it even faster than it should have been. People could switch back and forth between shifter and paddles constantly for the quickest shift. From what I’ve read people using these tricks would downshift with the paddles because it was faster and eliminates missed gears, but upshift 1-2 and 2-3 with the shifter because it’s faster than the paddles shift, but shifts 3-4, 4-5 and 5-6 would again use paddles because the game simulates those shifts fairly quickly in most cars and it removes the chances of a missed gear.

But this it where the real trick happens, most cars have one shift that is the slower than the rest, in a lot of cases it’s 1-2 or 2-3, for this example let’s say the cars slowest shift is 2-3. Here how it works, your in 6th gear and coming to a hairpin, so what you could do was downshift with paddles to 4th, then downshift to 3rd with the stick, then use the paddles again to down shift to 2nd from there for the corner leaving the stick in 3rd, then when exiting the corner instead of using the paddle or stick(because this is the cars slowest shift) to upshift you just hit the clutch and because the stick is in 3rd already the cars skips instantly into 3rd, eliminating the slowest shift, then use paddles again the rest of the way to 6th.

Or from the standing start, again we’ll use shift 2-3 as the cars slowest shift. Before the start you put the stick in 3rd, then downshift to 1st with the paddles, race starts and you take off in 1st, use paddles to shift to 2nd, then when it time for the slowest shift to 3rd you again just hit the clutch and the car jumps to 3rd near instantly and you shoot ahead of others using paddles/DS4’s.

PD should have nerfed these glitches, not the clutch/shifter.

That is such a complicated procedure that has to be performed in a short amount of time, I doubt ANY of the top drivers use it. The fastest drivers who are able to utilise h-shifter and clutch are just that good at manual shifting (and avoiding misshifts), they don't need to constantly switch back and forth between paddles/h-shifter.

Also, the bolded part doesn't work. Once you use the paddles, the game ignores the h-shifter and clutch UNTIL you clutch in and move the gear lever. Simply pressing the clutch doesn't shift up even if the gear lever is already in 3rd.

 

[Stoop Solo]

I've just had the chance to try it out this evening; took the RX7 around Tsukuba. It's utterly atrocious. Every up-shift failed unless I shifted like it was a bloody Model T.

If this was to address the stupidly slow paddle up-shift, why the hell didn't they just fix that instead of breaking something else? That's like saying "the wheels keep falling off this car. Let's fix it by making the wheels fall off all the other cars too". Assertively thumbs-down from me.

 

[K3Tuning]

Well now we all want the slow shifting addressed, we are unified there is a problem. We all have to deal with these cars slow shifting until its actually fixed so at least until the real problem is fixed its fair that everybody has a level playing field.

For a long time this has been an issue way way way before the update. Its unfortunate some dont see a problem unless affected but hope they can understand the indifference of those who've already been dealing with this for years with PD and GT

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

From a parity standpoint, I like the change. However, PD went about it in the wrong way in my opinion. Good intention, poor execution.

They should just make all Daily and FIA races use cars with fully customizable (sequential) transmission so the advantage of h-shifter + clutch is nullified. Job done. And while they're at it, improve the clutch simulation so it's on par with other PC sims. Game is overall more realistic, and competitive parity is preserved. Win-win for everyone.





I don't drive with h-shifter much since changing to my T-GT from G25 (no space and money for TH8A), so correct me on this, but I believe ARTA is correct.

Previously:
Paddle - fast in cars with FC tranny, slow in cars with manual gearbox (in built lag by the game to simulate clutch time and rowing the gears)
H-shifter only - as above
H-shifter + clutch - fast in cars with FC tranny (though usually not used as it confers no advantage), fast in cars with manual gearbox (though operator dependent and highly increases risk of misshifts if you're not skilled)

Now:
Paddle - no change
H-shifter only - no change
H-shifter + clutch - significantly slower in all conditions (due to added artificial lag by the game)

Now, I have tried h-shifting with clutch to improve my times before the update, but purely because I'm not skilled enough I cannot get anywhere near my times with paddles, even with the advantage of faster shift times. So in my opinion, fast drivers will always be fast and the clutch advantage is only really relevant if you're gunning for the top 10 time trial spots. For the rest of us, this change isn't really going to change the pecking order. What PD has done though is ruin the enjoyment and simulation of h-shifter and clutch. I can certainly symphatise with the frustration of people who like to drive cars in game the way they're meant to be driven IRL.



That is such a complicated procedure that has to be performed in a short amount of time, I doubt ANY of the top drivers use it. The fastest drivers who are able to utilise h-shifter and clutch are just that good at manual shifting (and avoiding misshifts), they don't need to constantly switch back and forth between paddles/h-shifter.

Also, the bolded part doesn't work. Once you use the paddles, the game ignores the h-shifter and clutch UNTIL you clutch in and move the gear lever. Simply pressing the clutch doesn't shift up even if the gear lever is already in 3rd.

The fast drivers were using exploits in the game with the shifter and clutch, including at race start shifting from 1st to second by using just the clutch. Even more average drivers were able to use this exploit to challenge a paddle shifter on pole to the first corner in a race.