Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Tornado]

Theory 1 - The GTPSP Intro Snapshot

In the intro for GTPSP, some of the sequences, especially in the beginning, are rendered with far too much detail for the PSP to be able to handle. This suggests that those parts were made with a more powerfull, advanced engine: GT5, and using GT5 models aswell.

The GTPSP intro didn't have to be based on any game engine. The entire thing could have been pure CGI based off of whatever assets PD had when they were putting it together.

Theory 2 - Are all Standards from past GT titles?(this one can give a tremendous headache )

As you know, a lot of the Standard cars will be returns of classics and favorites from past itinerations of Gran Turismo. However, are they all cars from previous games? What makes me put this question is the following set of thoughts: GT5 will feature 800 standard cars in total. It is unlikely those cars will come from games earlier that GT4.

There were a few cars in GT3 and the various Prologue games that never crossed over to GT4. Just saying.

This means the cars we will be seeing as Standard are coming from GT4 and GTPSP. GTPSP's car list consists of 800 cars with all the cars from GT4 present as part of it, suggesting that the premium cars (modelled completely from scratch for GT5) would be those not seen on GTPSP, and those that are on GTPSP are made standards. This is not the case however, since cars (present in GTPSP) like the Ferrari Enzo, Bugatti Veyron and even others from older times like the Capuccino, Castrol Tom's Supra, Acura NSX, Skyline R34 etc..., have all been converted to Premium level. What comes out of this is that there is some space left in the Standard car count to reach 800.

No matter how you look at it, the hard numbers given by PD don't add up. Even if the GT5 Standard list is the worst case scenario (the idiotic GTPSP list, and the Premium and Standard lists share cars) it wouldn't work, because PD would presumably be reintroducing (most of) the cars from GT4 that weren't in GTPSP (like the Astons, for example).

More than that, in order to avoid further class division among the cars (like the creation of a High-Standard type) PD would have to update their older models to match these new Standard models they've just built, therefore emplying and improved quality on the exterior of all Standard cars.

This is already likely going to be a problem regardless of whether PD attempts to pad the numbers with purpose-built standards or not, because of the graphical differences between GT3 and GT4.



One thing I remembered recently that I would like PD to implement (but they probably won't) would be the Nike One 2022 from GT4. The discussion with Phil Frank said that PD had the car modeled quite close close to his initial design and had to cut it down substantially in detail to even get it to work in the 1 on 1 races properly. The Toyota Triathalon car was presumably the same way.

 

[pughua]

Personally, I would've preferred 400-500 "premium" models. I love cars (and bikes) and racing and racing games, but I wouldn't call myself a hardcore car nut. Being that I'm not, I don't really care to have 40 variations of a Skyline, 15 variations on Evos and STi's, 10 different vettes, etc etc. I like GT because I can drive the most exotic cars in the world and cars I can actually afford in real life, but all the multiple variations I can do without.

Also, unless they are fully featured, I can do without the WRC and NASCAR cars. I don't really see the point of including these licenses if you can't race full seasons on all the tracks with full grids. I don't see spending all the time to grab a few cars from each series and a few tracks just to say they're in there.

In short, I'd give up what I perceive to be fluff in order to get more "premiums"

 

[Tenacious D]

I guess driving from the bumper/roof cam gives a much better impression of driving the car then a "unrealistic" (I don`t want to know the way you sit in your car) cockpit view?

I happen to have my seat inclined approximately 15-20 degrees, which I believe is about typical. My eyes are pretty close to the rear view mirror level, which if you took any art or photography classes, also puts the horizon there too.

On the other hand, Prologue seems to have their seats inclined 30-45 degrees, which is a pretty steep incline. While a good number of drivers use this as their seating arrangement, most drivers do not. This puts eye level albout halfway down the windshield, and likewise the horizon. And it does look too far back to me, and many others here, as if you're viewing from behind the driver. Because of this, much of the screen is taken up with the dashboard, which to you might be realistic, but this doesn't apply to all of us, even those of us who drive from cockpit view.

 

[Spagetti69]

Personally, I would've preferred 400-500 "premium" models. I love cars (and bikes) and racing and racing games, but I wouldn't call myself a hardcore car nut. Being that I'm not, I don't really care to have 40 variations of a Skyline, 15 variations on Evos and STi's, 10 different vettes, etc etc. I like GT because I can drive the most exotic cars in the world and cars I can actually afford in real life, but all the multiple variations I can do without.

Also, unless they are fully featured, I can do without the WRC and NASCAR cars. I don't really see the point of including these licenses if you can't race full seasons on all the tracks with full grids. I don't see spending all the time to grab a few cars from each series and a few tracks just to say they're in there.

In short, I'd give up what I perceive to be fluff in order to get more "premiums"

I like the cut of your jib young man.

 

[Tenacious D]

@pughua, welcome. Also, besides being a little too late for that, not everyone would agree with you. I don't.

Also, I just browsed some YouTube vids, and in fact, the HKS Evo at Madrid has a driver view which has the horizon pretty close to two-thirds of the way down the windshield, which would have your eyes just a few inches above dashboard level. Which, unless you like your drive from almost lying back, is waaay too low.

 

[Griffith500]

I think we all know not to pay too much attention to the ramblings and hastily derived justifications for things the press / media don't quite understand / forgot to ask / want to "big-up". Plenty of opportunity to hear from the horse's mouth in the coming months.

Now, back to the cockpit view.
I agree, like most cockpit views in computer games, GT5 uses far too much screen space showing you the interior - face-tracking, get to work.
However, my biggest problem with the cockpit view isn't some partially subjective impression of where my head is, relative to the car's interior (accounting for FOV etc.) rather a general sense of feeling disconnected and "unaware". Oddly, it doesn't happen when I use the pad, only a wheel. I don't have issues of being confused by the steering wheel on screen, so am at a total loss as to what the problem is. Other games (SIMBIN stuff, GPL, LFS etc.) are all fine for me (OK, GTR is borderline, but that's probably the tyre model...)


Justathought:
If the standard cars get damage (basic, geometric and decal-based) and run on the new physics, then they cannot just be "lifted" straight from GT4. They have certainly been fettled, processed in some way, and converted to work in the new ("scratch-built") engine. They ought to work fine alongside the premium cars, otherwise it's a potentially huge error, for many reasons (some outlined in the last couple of pages.)
I know, tis all but conjecture, something this thread doesn't need much more of, but it is at least rational... ahem.

 

[maxpontiac]

No doubt man, what struck me though was the basic interior part, I remember reading the article from Kotaku, and It said the same thing about the basic interiors. So when i read that it had me thinking. 💡 In the end GT5 will be amazing like you said, and thats what counts most. 👍

Yeah, I am still just accepting that the dashboard camera on the Standard Cars is a no go. That way, if it's anything else, it's a bonus.

and full, panel-shredding damage in fender benders.

But that quote alone could make the Premium cars something special. I mean "panel shredding"? Think about that for one second...

 

[Spagetti69]

You could be right griff, or maybe the dents are painted on.
Maybe standards can't run with premiums.

No one knows. Confusion reigns supreme.

 

[regnar]

article from playstation - official magazine - australian
------------------------------


standard cars feature only very basic interiors hidden by darker tinted glass, one headlight setting and cosmetic damage is limited to dirt, scratches and dents.still, both standard and premium cars feature horns, reverse lights, mechanical damage and the ability to roll over during wrecks.

If this is the case, I can assume additional work on adding detailed textures to bottom of the standard cars, assuming the undersides where flat on the GT4's.

 

[Conquerer]

Personally, I would've preferred 400-500 "premium" models. I love cars (and bikes) and racing and racing games, but I wouldn't call myself a hardcore car nut. Being that I'm not, I don't really care to have 40 variations of a Skyline, 15 variations on Evos and STi's, 10 different vettes, etc etc. I like GT because I can drive the most exotic cars in the world and cars I can actually afford in real life, but all the multiple variations I can do without.

In short, I'd give up what I perceive to be fluff in order to get more "premiums"

The flaw with that argument is that it doesn't take much to create a clone car. All you have to do is change a few specifications and maybe some new colours. That's pretty much it. There's no way it's comparable to creating a brand new car from scratch. The amount of clones is a bit excessive but they include them because they easily can. It takes minimal effort to add them so they figure why not? Gives us more choice, especially those of us who are more familiar with those cars. And if someone owns a specific Skyline model they can likely buy it in GT. It doesn't take away cars from other people and offers more versions for the junkies to choose from.

 

[SrRd RacinG]

The fact that standard cars have cosmetic damage, the ability to roll-over, etc, leads me to believe that they could very well have an interior cockpit view.

Actually, the more I think about it, the less I can imagine GT5 standard cars NOT having a cockpit view.

The two different car classes cannot be THAT segregated. The game will likely be so consistent that at least all cars have that very basic driving view.

 

[Conquerer]

If you're driving a standard car, then the AI cars in events could all be standard, and the same for premium. This allows you to use whatever car you want for each event, and only your opponents would be different. Of course in multiplayer you should (ideally) be able to use standards vs premiums.

Personally, I'd probably rather standard cars with premium cars in all events but I wouldn't be terribly bothered if what I described is what happens. If the classes are truly segregated an can't be used in certain events (which I certainly doubt will happen), then I will be disappointed.

 

[Zonda_Guy]

If you're driving a standard car, then the AI cars in events could all be standard, and the same for premium. This allows you to use whatever car you want for each event, and only your opponents would be different. Of course in multiplayer you should (ideally) be able to use standards vs premiums.

Personally, I'd probably rather standard cars with premium cars in all events but I wouldn't be terribly bothered if what I described is what happens. If the classes are truly segregated an can't be used in certain events (which I certainly doubt will happen), then I will be disappointed.

I don't think Premiums and Standards will be segregated either, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Kryz11]

Both standard and premium cars will use the same physics engine, both will have damage for internal parts.. so no reason at all to segregate them.

 

[regnar]

Both on the track together shouldn't be a problem, just a matter of turning off the Premiums visual damage.

 

[paulpg87]

Imo we'll have gt classic and gt premium.. too much difference in quality between the cars.

 

[TokyoDrift]

The fact that standard cars have cosmetic damage, the ability to roll-over, etc, leads me to believe that they could very well have an interior cockpit view.

Actually, the more I think about it, the less I can imagine GT5 standard cars NOT having a cockpit view.

The two different car classes cannot be THAT segregated. The game will likely be so consistent that at least all cars have that very basic driving view.

Of course it's possible for the 'tard cars to get cockpits...if you are prepared to wait 6 more years for the game. At best you will get a generic cockpit for the 'tard cars. This is PD that we are talking about there, and yes, they can segregate them THAT much, because they HAVE.

Makes no odds to me because I think cockpit view is crap anyway, and don't really care much for damage that is half-baked either.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Makes no odds to me because I think cockpit view is crap anyway, and don't really care much for damage that is half-baked either.

Pretty much my attitude of cockpit view. I might at times use this view for offline play but never use it when racing online or hotlapping.

As for damage and again this is something im only interested in offline. Have enough trouble with idiots online let alone having damage to spoil my race. If anyone thinks having damage online will prevent bashing then think again, in some cases it actually encourages them. Countless times on FM2 my race would be over on the 1st bend when damage was enabled.

 

[TokyoDrift]

Same here, cockpit view really just adds unnecessary eye candy, which for me gets in the way of the racing. Unless you sit three feet from a multiscreen setup that uses 46" screens to give you that wraparound view, it's totally unrealistic anyway.

As for damage, I'll take it however it comes, but with some cars having only dents and scratches while others have panels that fly off...again, this split in the game just makes it look ugly.

 

[Griffith500]

Of course it's possible for the 'tard cars to get cockpits...if you are prepared to wait 6 more years for the game. At best you will get a generic cockpit for the 'tard cars. This is PD that we are talking about there, and yes, they can segregate them THAT much, because they HAVE.

Makes no odds to me because I think cockpit view is crap anyway, and don't really care much for damage that is half-baked either.

What do you mean by this? I wouldn't say that applying a label to something is an act of segregation - differentiation, certainly - not segregation.
Unless I've missed something?

The cockpit view is fixable, but doubt it will be. If mechanical damage is not "half-baked" I'll be a happy man.

 

[TokyoDrift]

What do you mean by this? I wouldn't say that applying a label to something is an act of segregation - differentiation, certainly - not segregation.
Unless I've missed something?

The cockpit view is fixable, but doubt it will be. If mechanical damage is not "half-baked" I'll be a happy man.

Read the post I quoted. Segregation was not my idea of a word to use. However, with 20% of the cars having amazing detail, full damage, cockpit view, and the remaining 80% having lower detail, basic damage, no cockpit view.... You tell me if this is segregation or not.

Not that I care, because I truly don't. However, it does seem to be upsetting quite a lot of people, which I find amusing given that it's just a game.

 

[Goldrusher]

All I want is a hood cam. Much more useful than cockpit anyway.

 

[analog]

I happen to have my seat inclined approximately 15-20 degrees, which I believe is about typical. My eyes are pretty close to the rear view mirror level, which if you took any art or photography classes, also puts the horizon there too.

On the other hand, Prologue seems to have their seats inclined 30-45 degrees, which is a pretty steep incline. While a good number of drivers use this as their seating arrangement, most drivers do not. This puts eye level albout halfway down the windshield, and likewise the horizon. And it does look too far back to me, and many others here, as if you're viewing from behind the driver. Because of this, much of the screen is taken up with the dashboard, which to you might be realistic, but this doesn't apply to all of us, even those of us who drive from cockpit view.

For a true real life comparison you also have to include the height of the driver as well I guess, not just the angle.
Don't know the height used on the virtual driver in Prologue but the viewpoint used isn't far off from what I see ( and I tried to compare it, whilst stationary ofcourse ) when I'm in a real car.
I'm slightly over 6 feet tall and sure you can adjust the seat height in real life as well but I do take a different position than those who are shorter ( having longer legs and arms which means ofcourse I sit further back even at the same seat height or eye level ).
The angle I use whilst driving a real car is pretty much upright, not far reclined just further back.

 

[danielwhite74]

Imo we'll have gt classic and gt premium.. too much difference in quality between the cars.

This was pretty much confirmed right back when Gran Turismo HD was cancelled. Beforehand, Yamauchi had stated that the game, then referred to by its codename Vision Gran Turismo, would be split into two separate releases: Gran Turismo Premium and Gran Turismo Classic. Upon the cancellation of these projects, he promised that all of Gran Turismo HD's features, including Gran Turismo Classic, would be incorporated into Gran Turismo 5. If Standard cars were originally to be an entirely separate game, then they will certainly be segregated into separate game modes.

 

[Griffith500]

Read the post I quoted. Segregation was not my idea of a word to use. However, with 20% of the cars having amazing detail, full damage, cockpit view, and the remaining 80% having lower detail, basic damage, no cockpit view.... You tell me if this is segregation or not.

Not that I care, because I truly don't. However, it does seem to be upsetting quite a lot of people, which I find amusing given that it's just a game.

In my mind, segregation implies a physical separation (as opposed to a visual / functional / figurative separation) and you're right, it's original use in the post you quoted is flawed (attempt at emotionally-charged language?) but you repeated it

The vocabulary is not that important, granted. I just didn't want to jump to conclusions.



That said... So what if the cars look different? If they all drive the "same", I couldn't care less.

All I want is a hood cam. Much more useful than cockpit anyway.

Actually, that'd be nice; or some kind of hybrid bonnet / cockpit view.


EDIT: @danielwhite74: I hope you're wrong. Perhaps, initially, GT "Classic" was not meant to be built on the new physics engine, or feature damage and "roll-over" (i.e., be built on the new physics engine...) That doesn't seem to be the case for the "Standard" cars.

 

[yakapo]

Same here, cockpit view really just adds unnecessary eye candy, which for me gets in the way of the racing. Unless you sit three feet from a multiscreen setup that uses 46" screens to give you that wraparound view, it's totally unrealistic anyway.

As for damage, I'll take it however it comes, but with some cars having only dents and scratches while others have panels that fly off...again, this split in the game just makes it look ugly.

my 1st post...
Although I've owned GT5 prologue for a few months I didn't really get into it until recently. Forza 3 was much easier for me. Then I mounted my wheel on my computer desk 4 or 5 inches from a 28" monitor and started playing in cockpit view... I instantly got better at the game. Previously I couldn't tell when I needed to counter-steer and I would fishtail or over-correct on the corners. I'm by no means as good as 95% of people on this forum but I'm having fun.

For me the in car view is essential. I'm still going to preorder the game. I'll probably end up mostly playing the premium cars. It's still worth every penny to me.

 

[nello-C1]

i hope i am not dreaming but, the video they released prior to the e3 vid wasn't that oooooooold since members of the press saw it months before they(P.D) released it? maybe this might be the same senario where the standard car vid is concerned:idea: they might not be the final quality that we will see in a few weeks.

 

[WesWelker83]

You will notice everyone keeps mentioning how we will all be buing GT5 despite this... and truth is we pretty much all will. Anyone willing to sign up on this forum and participate is in deep enough they are getting GT5 (algthough possibly now waiting for a sale or used copy).

What I would think is important to remember is we are all GT fans becuse GT has a strong history of providing the content. GT4 was kind of questionable in terms of it's progress but overall we are all fans of a solid franchise.

But if the franchise falters and miss steps with GT5... chances are still there will be plenty of sales... but where it will hit home is GT6.

If GT5 isn't a heavy hitter you can be all the speculation around GT6 won't be how awesome it will be but if it can recover from GT5... and that's never a good spot to be in.

as usual with this issue, YOU ARE SPOT ON . I ust find it completely rediculous at how many people don't care about the cockpit view bcuz they don't use it. Regardless of what you use, you should support what's good for the series. and this extremely bad for gt. prologue, a supposed "glorified demo", has something so basic & expected that gt5 doesn't. forza too. and the fact that prologue has cockpit view makes this even worse bcuz of how many gamers only use cockpit view like me. I'll buy the game but if it mattered, I would be expecting it to get alot of bad reviews. there will be less sales with gt6. theres just been too much time spent on this game for it to be missing things & it makes the most hardcore fans even lose faith in the series

 

[Tenacious D]

I think that's way overblown. It seems like even critical gaming journalists like Sean Cole from InsideSimRacing are gushing over how huge and detailed the game is, even with Standard cars. PC sim reviewers are impressed with the physics. So far, I haven't read much bad at all about GT5 from these guys, and these are the tough customers. I know reviews can be quite different, but it really seems like even with the Standard car cockpit fiasco, they seem to give it a high grade. I still think GT5 is going to sell like tacos, so we'll see.

For a true real life comparison you also have to include the height of the driver as well I guess, not just the angle.
Don't know the height used on the virtual driver in Prologue but the viewpoint used isn't far off from what I see ( and I tried to compare it, whilst stationary ofcourse ) when I'm in a real car.
I'm slightly over 6 feet tall and sure you can adjust the seat height in real life as well but I do take a different position than those who are shorter ( having longer legs and arms which means ofcourse I sit further back even at the same seat height or eye level ).

This could make a difference, as the typical Japanese is shorter than the average westerner. But I sincerely doubt that Japanese drivers are so short that their eyes are a few inches above the dashboard.

I guess I should take some images from inside my car, as one or two thers have done, to show what I see vs the way it looks in Prologue. Oh, and I'm just shy of 6ft myself.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

as usual with this issue, YOU ARE SPOT ON . I ust find it completely rediculous at how many people don't care about the cockpit view bcuz they don't use it. Regardless of what you use, you should support what's good for the series. and this extremely bad for gt. prologue, a supposed "glorified demo", has something so basic & expected that gt5 doesn't. forza too. and the fact that prologue has cockpit view makes this even worse bcuz of how many gamers only use cockpit view like me. I'll buy the game but if it mattered, I would be expecting it to get alot of bad reviews. there will be less sales with gt6. theres just been too much time spent on this game for it to be missing things & it makes the most hardcore fans even lose faith in the series

Why is it ridiculous that I don't care about cockpit view. We all enjoy playing racing games in different ways. For example im an avid hotlapper whereas some of my friends love racing online. I have another friend who will spend hrs just watching replays.

The future and the success of Gran Turismo won't be measured on trivialities like cockpit view because the way video games are made & played differs these days. If anything how successful GT5 online play is going to be is more important. These days most gamers expect a solid, robust online features in the game. Look at COD 4 & MW2 these games aren't famous for their offline/single player mode but because of the way they took online play to new levels. Thankfully PD have realised how important online play is to the franchise which is why they have put so much time and effort into it.

Sorry but i've said this before and I will say it again. When I read some of the posts in this forum its like i've gone into a timewarp and gone back 10yrs!