Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Lilday]

I think all cars will have a cockpit.

I mean the Daihatsu Copen in GT5P had a cockpit...Are you telling me they're going to make a Daihatsu that 90% of people won't even buy a premium model?

I plan to race all races in cockpit view like I have with GT5P, therefore I hope all the cars (Standard and Premium) have cockpit views, If they don't I will surely be disappointed but hey, beggers can't be choosers, and I just beg PD not to delay this game again!

 

[eSZee]

I think all cars will have a cockpit.

I mean the Daihatsu Copen in GT5P had a cockpit...Are you telling me they're going to make a Daihatsu that 90% of people won't even buy a premium model?

Yes, I'm telling you that. I'm also telling you what you said has been said many times before and that I've said a million times that premium cars have to cover a wide gamut of cars. I'll also tell you that premium doesn't mean sport cars/supercars/hypercars as many seem to believe.

 

[Tenacious D]

You say that now but I bet if you see them together, you may still not agree with the separationists, but you won't think it's a stupid idea. (snip)

I'm sure a lot of people don't care they look worse, but judging from what I see here, and specially other forums, a lot of those people don't realize how much worse they look. Those will have a very unpleasant surprise when they fire up GT5.

Well, it may not be a stupid idea to keep Standards and Premiums separate, but I do think it's a poor one. Just think logistically for a moment.

There are 200 some odd Premium cars in GT5. While I'm sure that PD has made some effort to make sure there is a remotely equitable distribution among the various classes of cars, I'm not sure how true that will be.

The Cappuccino and Miata are similar cars. But suppose only the Cappuccino is a Premium car of that class?

Or, suppose the mid-performance mid-engined cars are restricted to the MR2 MkII and Exige? The MR is a nice sports car, but the Exige is very much a race car.

How many Lamborghini and Mazerati models will be Premium? What if it's just one of each, and the rest Standard?

I think you'll end up even more disappointed if the two classes are isolated from each other, because your race options are going to be much more limited, unless you really enjoy racing Standards on their own a lot.

As for Photo Mode with the two classes side by side, I think everyone is forgetting that Forza already has this situation. The cars other than yours on the track are so limited in polygons and detail that they look horrible. And no matter what you think of the Standard cars, I think if you'll be honest and re-examine the images from GT4 in this thread, you won't say they look horrible. If you do anyway, I think I'll quote GT5 Sceptic on the matter:

then sorry, your powers of deduction aren't working.

Just my remotely humble opinion.

 

[X-Power]

You're right Tenacious D, we should be allowed to race Premium's against Standard's. No one would really notice the difference when actually racing, no one really complains about the low detail in-race models used in Forza 3. I think the standard's will look fine when we're racing them.

 

[Zonda_Guy]

I think all cars should be together. It would suck if you love a certain car and you can't drive it because you're doing a premium only race or vice versa. I think GT will make it so you can enjoy all the cars and I think thats what Kaz would want.

 

[Dravonic]

Well, it may not be a stupid idea to keep Standards and Premiums separate, but I do think it's a poor one. Just think logistically for a moment.

There are 200 some odd Premium cars in GT5. While I'm sure that PD has made some effort to make sure there is a remotely equitable distribution among the various classes of cars, I'm not sure how true that will be.

The Cappuccino and Miata are similar cars. But suppose only the Cappuccino is a Premium car of that class?

Or, suppose the mid-performance mid-engined cars are restricted to the MR2 MkII and Exige? The MR is a nice sports car, but the Exige is very much a race car.

How many Lamborghini and Mazerati models will be Premium? What if it's just one of each, and the rest Standard?

I think you'll end up even more disappointed if the two classes are isolated from each other, because your race options are going to be much more limited, unless you really enjoy racing Standards on their own a lot.

As for Photo Mode with the two classes side by side, I think everyone is forgetting that Forza already has this situation. The cars other than yours on the track are so limited in polygons and detail that they look horrible. And no matter what you think of the Standard cars, I think if you'll be honest and re-examine the images from GT4 in this thread, you won't say they look horrible. If you do anyway, I think I'll quote GT5 Sceptic on the matter:

Just my remotely humble opinion.

I agree, that's why I said I don't think it's a very good idea.

As far as I can perceive, PD cares about the racing first, the graphics second, and then there's everything else. I'm for driving all cars together since the racing comes first.

But there's a catch and that's where this separationist idea comes from. Graphics are so important in this game (and I'm not pulling this out of nowhere, just look at any GT game. They have been about eye candy since the very first one) that treating both tiers of cars equally will severely damage this very important aspect of the game.

What I mean is, if you have a single GT mode where everything goes, then you have a game that looks awesome 20% of the time and the graphics are somewhat ruined. If you have two separate modes, say GT mode and GT classic, then you have a game with a bonus mode where cars look worse and the graphics remain awesome.

Even though I think it's a bad idea, I can see it makes sense so I wouldn't call it stupid.

 

[Peter]

Who the hell said Standard cars will have only 4000 polygons, while premiums will have 500,000? There can't be that gigantic of a difference.

 

[Nero9]

Who the hell said Standard cars will have only 4000 polygons, while premiums will have 500,000? There can't be that gigantic of a difference.

Oh well just you wait, PD will introduce the "Classic" models with 600 polygons from GT1/2, THEN you can compare.

 

[Dan_]

As far as I can perceive, PD cares about the racing first, the graphics second, and then there's everything else. I'm for driving all cars together since the racing comes first.

Same here, the variety in car selection is the most remarkable achievement in this game, restricting events to just one tier would be dumb.

As far as I can see, PD has chosen to distribute the Premium cars in a broad range of classes, you'll have muscles, exotics, saloon cars and even K-crappy-econoboxes as Premium models, so if you want to play only in cockpit view, you'll be able to enjoy most of the events, if you don't, the possibilities are even more impressive. Thanks PD, a bit of common sense never hurts.

 

[ItsHim]

Oh well just you wait, PD will introduce the "Classic" models with 600 polygons from GT1/2, THEN you can compare.

I recently read there is a definite, limited resource of polygons available and it is expected to last for another 30 years. PD was forced to limit their consumption of polygons because at the rate they were using them up, all supplies would have been drained before any other racing game would have hit the market in 2011.

So could very well be they reintroduce the original GT1 models to save polygons for GT6. It has been rumoured that T10 recently tried to buy this site as "their next big thing".

iRacing however said they couldn't be bothered by polygons anyway - they are about to introduce a new racing rig (see below) made to their specifications. "That's how we intend our game to be played. It's about physics, you know."

 

[Geer Racer16]

Same here, the variety in car selection is the most remarkable achievement in this game, restricting events to just one tier would be dumb.

I agree I would much rather have all the cars the same. However,if that means having ANOTHER delayed release date then nevermind.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Who the hell said Standard cars will have only 4000 polygons, while premiums will have 500,000? There can't be that gigantic of a difference.

GT4 models were 4000 polygons. Video evidence has so far not shown any noticeable improvements in that department. That may or may not change by release though.

Same here, the variety in car selection is the most remarkable achievement in this game, restricting events to just one tier would be dumb.

I'm on the fence about keeping Premiums and Standards separate. Like people have pointed out, keeping them apart means Premium races are probably going to have duplicates if you're racing a 16 car race. I wouldn't mind more variety. On the other hand, despite what some people say, I can notice the difference quite easily between the two tiers, and so would anybody else if they're playing on a decent sized screen, at least I would assume. Denial is strong, though.

I'd just be a bit thrown off when I'm driving a Premium and the AI, in a Standard, hits me. I'll see my car damaged up, his won't look much different. Yes, I know mechanical damage is universal in the game, but you can't deny it's going to look strange having two very different visual levels of damage in a race.

The fact that no in-game footage of both tiers on track at once has been seen so far doesn't bode well. I guess ideally PD could just give the user the option to either have both tiers on track, or one or the other.

As for the car count being remarkable... 1000 cars is a lot less impressive when I realize it's built up over almost 10 years. Some of the cars from GT3 (the C5R) are still carried over, so when I think about it in terms of years versus total count, it's a bit more reasonable. There's a reason other games don't have that all-important number...

 

[Peter]

GT4 models were 4000 polygons. Video evidence has so far not shown any noticeable improvements in that department. That may or may not change by release though.

So, you're saying that on a brand new, much more powerful console, they did not improve a single thing on the standard cars, and that they are exactly the same as they were in GT4? And you're saying that because of 1 video of standard cars? Only 1?

 

[Dravonic]

So, you're saying that on a brand new, much more powerful console, they did not improve a single thing on the standard cars, and that they are exactly the same as they were in GT4? And you're saying that because of 1 video of standard cars? Only 1?

The 3D model of the cars in the video are the very same you saw in GT4. The textures are apparently the same too but it's hard to tell, especially since cars in the video are somewhat blurry. That's doesn't mean they won't look any better though. They're going to be rendered in a much improved rendering engine so they will look better no doubt. Nowhere near premiums, somewhat blocky and less detailed when compared to other current gen games, but better.

And yes, from that single video we know a few cars are GT4 carryovers, so we assume all the other ones are too. However, if you wish to believe PD chose the very worst looking cars to put in the trailer while most of the other ones will have considerable improvements, be my guest.

 

[Tornado]

So, you're saying that on a brand new, much more powerful console, they did not improve a single thing on the standard cars, and that they are exactly the same as they were in GT4? And you're saying that because of 1 video of standard cars? Only 1?

Are you saying that if PD had improved the car models from GT4 that they wouldn't have shown them in the one piece of press info that has shown them off? The C5R in the video even has all of the same problems that the car has had since GT3!

It appears that the textures for some of the cars (possibly/probably all of the GT4 cars) will be better than they were in GT4 based on a side by side comparison of the C3 'Vette. But the models themselves are near-as-makes-no-difference to being identical to the way they were in GT4. And keep in mind that even if they were improved, the difference in quality would still be incredibly high.

 

[Forza4life]

Are you saying that if PD had improved the car models from GT4 that they wouldn't have shown them in the one piece of press info that has shown them off? The C5R in the video even has all of the same problems that the car has had since GT3!

It appears that the textures for some of the cars (possibly/probably all of the GT4 cars) will be better than they were in GT4 based on a side by side comparison of the C3 'Vette. But the models themselves are near-as-makes-no-difference to being identical to the way they were in GT4. And keep in mind that even if they were improved, the difference in quality would still be incredibly high.

True. 👍 Hell, even some of the car models in Forza 3 suffer from that as well (Some cars have the same model errors from Forza 1!). S2000 is one that comes to mind. I wonder if we'll get any real info on the standard cars at gamescom....

 

[gtracedriver]

So, you're saying that on a brand new, much more powerful console, they did not improve a single thing on the standard cars, and that they are exactly the same as they were in GT4? And you're saying that because of 1 video of standard cars? Only 1?

PS2 was limited. It seems they had more detail but PS2 was not able to manage it so they can use it on PS3 now. They always try to give their best so I do not think they will hold anything back for GT5. Standard cars will be fine.

 

[regnar]

I expect this 'Standard' issue will still be alive close to game release. PD is putting there best foot forward for right now,
they will feed us with a little more info at Gamescon, but waiting for TGS.

 

[Tenacious D]

As far as I can perceive, PD cares about the racing first, the graphics second, and then there's everything else. I'm for driving all cars together since the racing comes first.

But there's a catch and that's where this separationist idea comes from. Graphics are so important in this game (and I'm not pulling this out of nowhere, just look at any GT game. They have been about eye candy since the very first one) that treating both tiers of cars equally will severely damage this very important aspect of the game.

I think you're severely overstating things.

Undoubtedly, fans of other games and some critics will lambast GT5 just for having Standard cars in the first place, and mixing them will give them a reason to throw one more waterballoon. But I don't take them seriously, since I'm unaware of anyone but a few people here giving Turn 10 grief over their low detail cars in Forza 3. I'd be happy to detail the differences between bot cars in F3 and GT4 cars in Photo Mode, but I'm afraid some people might be offended.

No, I agree completely with the first paragraph. Mixed races are much more valuable than any graphical issues, even with the cockpit/non-cockpit matter assuming it holds true. Keeping them separated is a bad idea. Let nattering popinjays natter all they want, who cares.

 

[Gryzor]

It's a real dilemma for them as developers I'm sure, and kinda' why my question for Gamescom revolved around it. On the one hand we have a game where 80% of it (at least in terms of car models) is based on recycling older assets and giving them a new lease of life. On the other, that still leave 200 brand new, highly detailed cars for us to drool over and smash (in a fashion) to pieces. 200 is still a huge number, especially when put up against something like Codemaster's F1 2010. Sure, the F1 game looks to have a very comprehensive weather and physics engine, but in terms of cars...really, it's basically one with different liveries. People don't complain there do they?! So, people really should not be complaining at only having 200 premium cars either, but because of the 800 "standard" cars, they do.

In hindsight, had I been developing the game I would have settled on a detail model and car count somewhere between the two. Would that have been a good move? Not sure. It certainly would not have given people the chance to drive pretty much every car from past GT games. On the other hand, it would have made for a far more consistent experience overall.

Still, it is what it is and no amount of theorising will change anything! Bring it on!

 

[analog]

200 is still a huge number, especially when put up against something like Codemaster's F1 2010. Sure, the F1 game looks to have a very comprehensive weather and physics engine, but in terms of cars...really, it's basically one with different liveries. People don't complain there do they?! So, people really should not be complaining at only having 200 premium cars either, but because of the 800 "standard" cars, they do.

You cannot be serious about comparing the car count in a specialized game dedicated to one season in one racing series to GT5.
F1 2010 isn't marketed as an encyclopedia of the car in general nor is it marketed as an encyclopedia of F1 history.
And saying all F1 cars are the same apart from liveries is just ignorant and I can't believe you yourself believe that to be true ( only those totally unaware of the sport or cars in general can be forgiven for saying they all look the same, they may look similar to the casual observer but surely aren't the same ).

 

[alonsof1fan91]

200 is still a huge number, especially when put up against something like Codemaster's F1 2010. Sure, the F1 game looks to have a very comprehensive weather and physics engine, but in terms of cars...really, it's basically one with different liveries. People don't complain there do they?! So, people really should not be complaining at only having 200 premium cars either, but because of the 800 "standard" cars, they do.

All cars in F1 2010 are the same?

A GT5 fanboy should be quiet when it comes to car duplicates, just check the GTPSP car list and search for all those Skyline, NSX, 350z or Rx7 clones.

How on earth can you compare a game that just aims to deliver a full F1 season with all cars, tracks, drivers and a nice weather engine with a huge game like GT5, that aims to become (and Im sure it will be) the best sim avaible on consoles?

Btw: Im sure that F1 2010 won`t dissappoint me like GT5 already has. No GT3/4 imports, no strange engine sounds (Honestly, do you guys really believe that all standard cars will sound different to GT4?) and no 5 years development time.

Yeah, I love GT and im sure that this game will rock (and it will be much better game for guys who are interested in sims and generally cars), but I will play F1 2010 atleast as much as GT5...

 

[Spagetti69]

If putting standards and premiums together is a problem then just dumb down the premiums when used with standards.

Problem solved.

Although when joining a public race and the lobby wants to use premiums, if you select a standard you're getting kicked lol.

 

[Gryzor]

You cannot be serious about comparing the car count in a specialized game dedicated to one season in one racing series to GT5.
F1 2010 isn't marketed as an encyclopedia of the car in general nor is it marketed as an encyclopedia of F1 history.
And saying all F1 cars are the same apart from liveries is just ignorant and I can't believe you yourself believe that to be true ( only those totally unaware of the sport or cars in general can be forgiven for saying they all look the same, they may look similar to the casual observer but surely aren't the same ).

Wow, somebody got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. Chillax dude...

At the end of the day, I don't care how the games are marketed or what their purpose is. All I was getting across is that people are happy to hand over £40 or so for a game that has one class of car and less than 20 tracks. This puts things nicely into perspective, and was not me justifying or giving excuses for either game.

As for F1 cars, did I say that they are all the same? No, I said they are basically the same. Yes there are differences, but again, I was just putting things into perspective as a class of car relative to the many varieties on offer in GT5. 12 varieties of F1 car is just like having 12 different Skylines in GT5. Yes they are different, but not so different that the casual gamer will be able to appreciate all of the differences in every car. Please don't go saying that GT5 is only for hardcore racers either, because the vast majority of buyers will be people like me who take gaming a bit more light hearted than some, evidently.

Don't take it personally like I'm dissiing GT5 or F1 for that matter. I'm just a gamer who likes racing games and am capable of seeing the value of GT5 in relative, not just actual terms.

 

[gtracedriver]

lol I am sure standard cars will look better than F1 2010 cars. Standards cars do not have the LOD of premiums but they are still very accurate modeled cars you will ever get to drive on any racing game.

 

[Spagetti69]

lol I am sure standard cars will look better than F1 2010 cars. Standards cars do not have the LOD of premiums but they are still very accurate modeled cars you will ever get to drive on any racing game.

I don't agree.

 

[analog]

Wow, somebody got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. Chillax dude...

At the end of the day, I don't care how the games are marketed or what their purpose is. All I was getting across is that people are happy to hand over £40 or so for a game that has one class of car and less than 20 tracks. This puts things nicely into perspective, and was not me justifying or giving excuses for either game.

As for F1 cars, did I say that they are all the same? No, I said they are basically the same. Yes there are differences, but again, I was just putting things into perspective as a class of car relative to the many varieties on offer in GT5. 12 varieties of F1 car is just like having 12 different Skylines in GT5. Yes they are different, but not so different that the casual gamer will be able to appreciate all of the differences in every car. Please don't go saying that GT5 is only for hardcore racers either, because the vast majority of buyers will be people like me who take gaming a bit more light hearted than some, evidently.

Don't take it personally like I'm dissiing GT5 or F1 for that matter. I'm just a gamer who likes racing games and am capable of seeing the value of GT5 in relative, not just actual terms.

Wrong side of the bed? No just pointing out a completely pointless comparison of car numbers between 2 different games with completely different objectives which can't be directly compared regardless of marketing speak.
F1 2010 and GT5 are sold for roughly the same amount of money and both are driving games but that's where the similarities end.
You can enjoy both and they are aimed at a largely overlapping demographic who can appreciate both for what they are but to compare the amount of cars in F1 2010 ( replaced next year with F1 2011 ) to GT5 ( a title with a longer lifespan ) isn't very logical.
GT5 as a concept ( large variety and amount of cars, open plan gameplay ) can't be compared with a game focussing on all aspects of one series which makes the car count irrelevant as long as it includes all cars of that particular season.
For example you can't directly compare a game like GTA with a first-person shooter despite retailing for the same amount of money.
Both have a lot of shooting but offer a completely different experience, one focussing purely on shooting and all aspects of it, the other offering tons of other content not purely focussing on one element.
To compare the difference of F1 cars with variety of Skylines says it all I guess especially since F1 2010 is aimed at those who love and know F1 and most can tell the difference ( subtle differences perhaps but it's aimed at those who appreciate these subtleties ).
Oh and I didn't ever mention GT5 being for hardcore racers only, I often make a point for aimlessly driving around in those cars I can't afford to drive in real life without a competitive element, just enjoying the experience.

 

[warp9engage]

Spagetti69

gtracedriver;
lol I am sure standard cars will look better than F1 2010 cars. Standards cars do not have the LOD of premiums but they are still very accurate modeled cars you will ever get to drive on any racing game.

I don't agree.

I don't agree either, for the simple reason that ports from a previous generation game no matter how upscaled they may be, simply can't compete with anything other than arcade games like Burnout Paradise nowadays. Textured shutlines, headlights and grills might cut it when viewing the cars from some angles but won't always look decent and that's what is demanded of games today. I boldly say, Project Gotham Racing 3 has more detail in its cars than most if not all the cars in GT4 and it was one of the first console racers of this generation.

If you continue to believe that the standard cars are up to date and that they will look great in the game, consider this: why have Polyphony Digital only released a short video and refused determinately to shows us more details on the Standard Cars in their demos and presentations so far if they are looking so good? PD are a game developer that only show the high quality material they have to offer. So by that analogy, the reason why they haven't given us any more media and information on the Standard Cars is because the know they're bad and don't want to start putting dings and dents on their game presentation just yet. Now, if this is to be proven wrong, PD better show some Standard Cars at GamesCon, otherwise we've got to start thinking their's truly something they want to keep hidden about them.

 

[gtracedriver]

I don't agree either, for the simple reason that ports from a previous generation game no matter how upscaled they may be, simply can't compete with anything other than arcade games like Burnout Paradise nowadays. Textured shutlines, headlights and grills might cut it when viewing the cars from some angles but won't always look decent and that's what is demanded of games today. I boldly say, Project Gotham Racing 3 has more detail in its cars than most if not all the cars in GT4 and it was one of the first console racers of this generation.

If you continue to believe that the standard cars are up to date and that they will look great in the game, consider this: why have Polyphony Digital only released a short video and refused determinately to shows us more details on the Standard Cars in their demos and presentations so far if they are looking so good? PD are a game developer that only show the high quality material they have to offer. So by that analogy, the reason why they haven't given us any more media and information on the Standard Cars is because the know they're bad and don't want to start putting dings and dents on their game presentation just yet. Now, if this is to be proven wrong, PD better show some Standard Cars at GamesCon, otherwise we've got to start thinking their's truly something they want to keep hidden about them.

lol why would they show standard cars at E3 instead of premium. That is no brainier. They wanted to show their best.

They haven't released any pic other than a tiny video and this one is taken from that video:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4446/gt5std1.jpg
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/4373/gt5c5rstd2.jpg

I think dividing it into standard and premium is a mistake. But once the game get released. People will be saying standards looks great but premium are class of it's own

 

[ItsHim]

I don't agree either, for the simple reason that ports from a previous generation game no matter how upscaled they may be, simply can't compete with anything other than arcade games like Burnout Paradise nowadays.

And where did the car models for the replays (at the lower 30 fps) and more importantly for the stills in 720p come from?

Just because the PS2 could not make full use of the data doesn't mean they haven't got some more detailed models up their sleeves.

GT4 on the PS2 could render some pretty decent looking stills, I hope the PS3 can do moving pictures at 60 fps.

I strongly assume the data was there all this time - GT5P was if I'm not mistaken GT4 on a PS3, and it looked pretty decent even compared to today's standard.