Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[alonsof1fan91]

Wrong side of the bed? No just pointing out a completely pointless comparison of car numbers between 2 different games with completely different objectives which can't be directly compared regardless of marketing speak.
F1 2010 and GT5 are sold for roughly the same amount of money and both are driving games but that's where the similarities end.
You can enjoy both and they are aimed at a largely overlapping demographic who can appreciate both for what they are but to compare the amount of cars in F1 2010 ( replaced next year with F1 2011 ) to GT5 ( a title with a longer lifespan ) isn't very logical.
GT5 as a concept ( large variety and amount of cars, open plan gameplay ) can't be compared with a game focussing on all aspects of one series which makes the car count irrelevant as long as it includes all cars of that particular season.
For example you can't directly compare a game like GTA with a first-person shooter despite retailing for the same amount of money.
Both have a lot of shooting but offer a completely different experience, one focussing purely on shooting and all aspects of it, the other offering tons of other content not purely focussing on one element.
To compare the difference of F1 cars with variety of Skylines says it all I guess especially since F1 2010 is aimed at those who love and know F1 and most can tell the difference ( subtle differences perhaps but it's aimed at those who appreciate these subtleties ).
Oh and I didn't ever mention GT5 being for hardcore racers only, I often make a point for aimlessly driving around in those cars I can't afford to drive in real life without a competitive element, just enjoying the experience.

Good post.

Futhermore, driving a F1 car in any game is something special to most F1 fans out there. Sadly, there aren`t many games on consoles that include F1 (or any OW) cars. I was so happy when the F2007 was confirmed in GT5P.

Yes, GT5 has so much more variety then F1 2010, but real F1 fans would take those 12 cars of the same class above 70-80 Skylines or 200-300 every-day vehicles (All of them standard) every day.

So its a useless comparision. Its like comparing FIFA Street with FIFA 2010.

+ Don`t forget the online aspect... It can turn a game with almost zero content into the nightmare of your wife.

 

[Spagetti69]

Do you guys still think we will get GT6 in 12/18 months time.

Reason I bring this up is that when I joined this forum(not that long ago) the release date speculation was at it's highest. A good time to be around IMHO, I loved all the banter on that topic.

Anyway lots of people said don't worry how long it takes their future proofing the series.
Idea being all the cars are fully modeled and ready to go into the next game.
All PD will do is add more tracks and a few more recently released cars from manufacturers and maybe even Porsche.

Now as it stands we have 200 future proofed cars. Some may or may not be clones but we'll see.
800 past iterations from previous games.

The problem I see arising is either PD premiumise(I made that word up) 800 cars.
Not sure how long that takes.

Drop 800 cars, therefor losing alot of classics.

Go with 400 premium 600 standard, rough estimate.

Or who knows.

What I'm saying I think is that we won't see GT6 in Christmas 2011 or shortly after.

 

[Gryzor]

Analog, I didn't particularly want to enter into some pointless debate with you, especially since I was actually praising the value that GT5 offers as a package relative to other racing games, dedicated or otherwise.

The use of F1 2010 with its necessarily low car count and single class was merely an extreme example, not an actual comparison of car counts to say how crap F1 is as a result. You obviously have some kind of sore spot around this area for some reason, which explains your rather defensive approach.

Like many casual gamers out there, I enjoy racing games, and am fortunate to be able to afford to buy both F1 and GT5 when they come out. Not everybody will be as fortunate, and so will be forced to make a choice - a choice that I'm sure will largely favour GT5 not only for its beauty and heritage, but also for the immense value that it represents. So tell me, where does that value come from? Car count, variety of makes/models, track count, variety of races/events maybe...?

 

[Tornado]

Just because the PS2 could not make full use of the data doesn't mean they haven't got some more detailed models up their sleeves.

If they did, where are they?

I strongly assume the data was there all this time - GT5P was if I'm not mistaken GT4 on a PS3, and it looked pretty decent even compared to today's standard.

No, GT5 was pretty obviously scratch built from the ground up. None of the assets from GT4 were ported.

 

[SpiderDemon]

Do you guys still think we will get GT6 in 12/18 months time.

Reason I bring this up is that when I joined this forum(not that long ago) the release date speculation was at it's highest. A good time to be around IMHO, I loved all the banter on that topic.

Anyway lots of people said don't worry how long it takes their future proofing the series.
Idea being all the cars are fully modeled and ready to go into the next game.
All PD will do is add more tracks and a few more recently released cars from manufacturers and maybe even Porsche.

Now as it stands we have 200 future proofed cars. Some may or may not be clones but we'll see.
800 past iterations from previous games.

The problem I see arising is either PD premiumise(I made that word up) 800 cars.
Not sure how long that takes.

Drop 800 cars, therefor losing alot of classics.

Go with 400 premium 600 standard, rough estimate.

Or who knows.

What I'm saying I think is that we won't see GT6 in Christmas 2011 or shortly after.

PD in recent years has developed entirely the new platform on PS3, but for GT6 they will only add some track and improve other details (like sound), the remaining resources will be used to model new premium car.

This is my thought. 👍

 

[Spagetti69]

F1 gives you 8 engines a season.
Your main rival is your team mate with whom you compete for the right to upgrade your car.
The drivers have individual driving characteristics and traits.
Seasons comprise of 7 i think, maybe 8.
Full race sessions ie practise,qualifier etc.

Average race between 1'30/1'45 hours.

Ability over time to take a non competitive team up the ranks.

I know GT has massive longetivity and scope.
Even the ability to race a 24 hour race.

You could sum up F1 consists of 8 endurance races(seasons) but I think you would be missing the point.

 

[Gryzor]

What I'm saying I think is that we won't see GT6 in Christmas 2011 or shortly after.

I sincerely hope that there is more than 12 months between the launches! I also hope that the focus of the game will shift from car count and quality etc.

As already pointed out, they have laid the foundations now. I'm sure we'll see the obvious, such as a few of the 800 standard cars getting premiumised (love that word Spagetti69!), as well as a few new premium cars and extra tracks. However, I really think they will put effort into other aspects of the game to elevate everything up to the same high standards.

 

[Spagetti69]

^ Hope you right.
Sony could always throw Kaz another curveball with another new handheld game.

 

[Jay]

Sony could always throw Kaz another curveball with another new handheld game.

Ouch, no thanks, Tourist Trophy 2 if anything.

 

[Gryzor]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the PSP2

Tourist Trophy 2 though...mmmmm, sounds awesome!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Elevate other things to the same high standards? I'm under the impression the rest of the game is up to pretty high standards (provided this day/night transition is available on all tracks and at least somewhat controllable). The Standards are the glaring example of things that need to be "elevated". The game itself is a ground-up design, but some of the Standards were modeled nearly 10 years ago!

Mind you, this is assuming PD has some vigorous quality control testing and irons out any bugs, say with online racing, or the very strange road-sign-stuck-in-GT-R bug.

 

[Spagetti69]

Uh road sign bug, never heard of that one.

 

[analog]

Analog, I didn't particularly want to enter into some pointless debate with you, especially since I was actually praising the value that GT5 offers as a package relative to other racing games, dedicated or otherwise.

The use of F1 2010 with its necessarily low car count and single class was merely an extreme example, not an actual comparison of car counts to say how crap F1 is as a result. You obviously have some kind of sore spot around this area for some reason, which explains your rather defensive approach.

Like many casual gamers out there, I enjoy racing games, and am fortunate to be able to afford to buy both F1 and GT5 when they come out. Not everybody will be as fortunate, and so will be forced to make a choice - a choice that I'm sure will largely favour GT5 not only for its beauty and heritage, but also for the immense value that it represents. So tell me, where does that value come from? Car count, variety of makes/models, track count, variety of races/events maybe...?

Why do you try to make a debate ( pointless or not ) personal by suggesting first I woke up at the wrong side of the bed and now claiming I might have a sore spot for whatever reason simply because I don't agree with the comparison and arguments you tried to make?
Please debate or counterargue with arguments, seems a bit odd to react that way purely for not agreeing with something you wrote, you can't expect everybody simply applauding everything you write now can you?
I'm not defending GT5 or F1 2010, just pointing out it seems illogical to compare them as it's an example you brought up to say car count is relative because F1 2010 offers far less cars than 200 Premium despite costing the same amount of money.
If I play a FIFA game I don't expect to be able to play tennis or golf as that game focusses on one sport unlike those collected Olympic Games titles you see once in a while where they offer multiple sports in one package.
I'm not comparing these games directly to GT5 but it does offer multiple racing and rallying disciplines ( and not all of their aspects as detailed as a game dedicated to one series would do ) combined with all sorts of new and classic road cars no other game on PS3 offers ( the only game similar in concept is Forza ).
The choice between these games isn't simply made between the number of cars as that would simply mean GT5 will win but whether what you want to experience.
For someone who only cares for F1 racing it may be a simple decision as F1 2010 offers all teams and tracks of that sport if he or she thinks Codemasters did justice to it.
The value of GT5 can't simply be straightforward decided by highlighting one or two aspects in my opinion as they differ according to personal preference and therefore the choice made how to play it ( and what aspects are deemed important or not ).
It can be a hardcore racer only if you chose to or a car collector game or just a casual or slightly more serious way to experience cars and car culture in all its variety, etc.
That's the beauty of it I guess that it can be a lot of things to a lot of people, some only limit themselves to driving 50 or even less cars they like, others like me appreciate all sorts of cars and have an eclectic taste encompassing the whole variety the game offers.
F1 2010 has a more limited goal ( winning the F1 championship and driving F1 cars both offline and online ) but probably focussing on those aspects of the sport a GT-game never could.
They aren't therefore direct competitors and the choice which one to choose if you can only spend your money once depends not just on the cars included but what type of game you choose.
I will buy GT5 but probably won't buy F1 2010, mainly because GT5 will absorb most of the time I spend playing and not leave much room for any game released roughly around the same time but also because I first have to wait and see whether Codemasters this time really improved their physics engine and other aspects which let down some of their other games for me.

 

[warp9engage]

lol why would they show standard cars at E3 instead of premium. That is no brainier. They wanted to show their best.

They haven't released any pic other than a tiny video and this one is taken from that video:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4446/gt5std1.jpg
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/4373/gt5c5rstd2.jpg

I think dividing it into standard and premium is a mistake. But once the game get released. People will be saying standards looks great but premium are class of it's own

First, I'm not saying they should only show Standards in their demos but rather a combination of the two. After all, Standard Cars make up 80% of GT5's car list, so they're a big feature and therefore should be shown to the public. The only problem PD has with that is, like you said, they want to show their best, but unfortunately, Standard Cars don't seem to have enough quality to be shown.

Second, the very fact that they only released a 40 second clip of Standard Cars in action, compared to over 30 minutes (rough estimate) of footage from Premium Cars in trailers, means that something is leading PD to believe that it is best to avoid showing too much of the Standards to the gamer audience (see reason above). This and the fact that they like to avoid answering questions on that subject.

Third, the division of the game. My opinion on this is directly related to how good the Standards will look at the end. If I'm proven wrong at GamesCon and the Standards are revealed to be just as amazing on the exterior as the Premiums, then please do keep them together! But if things continue like I'm predicting they'll continue and the Standards are still going to look the same as they did on that small clip, then please do separate them! Because on that last case, not separating the cars could lead to the game's presentation getting knocked, since the Standards would pale and look ridiculous running next to Premiums.

As for ItsHim's reply: if PD do have more detailed models up their sleeves, like Toronado said a few post above, where are they? So far I see no improvement, at least in the modelling department. And as for GT5P being GT4 on PS3, I think you've got that pretty wrong. GT5P was made brand new for the PS3. Maybe you were thinking about GTHD?

 

[FLASH48]

Do you guys still think we will get GT6 in 12/18 months time.

Reason I bring this up is that when I joined this forum(not that long ago) the release date speculation was at it's highest. A good time to be around IMHO, I loved all the banter on that topic.

Anyway lots of people said don't worry how long it takes their future proofing the series.
Idea being all the cars are fully modeled and ready to go into the next game.
All PD will do is add more tracks and a few more recently released cars from manufacturers and maybe even Porsche.

Now as it stands we have 200 future proofed cars. Some may or may not be clones but we'll see.
800 past iterations from previous games.

The problem I see arising is either PD premiumise(I made that word up) 800 cars.
Not sure how long that takes.

Drop 800 cars, therefor losing alot of classics.

Go with 400 premium 600 standard, rough estimate.

Or who knows.

What I'm saying I think is that we won't see GT6 in Christmas 2011 or shortly after.

In my opinion, were not going to see GT6 until at least Christmas 2012 or 2013.

 

[gtracedriver]

I think in 2 or max 3years we will get GT6.

First, I'm not saying they should only show Standards in their demos but rather a combination of the two. After all, Standard Cars make up 80% of GT5's car list, so they're a big feature and therefore should be shown to the public. The only problem PD has with that is, like you said, they want to show their best, but unfortunately, Standard Cars don't seem to have enough quality to be shown.

Second, the very fact that they only released a 40 second clip of Standard Cars in action, compared to over 30 minutes (rough estimate) of footage from Premium Cars in trailers, means that something is leading PD to believe that it is best to avoid showing too much of the Standards to the gamer audience (see reason above). This and the fact that they like to avoid answering questions on that subject.

Third, the division of the game. My opinion on this is directly related to how good the Standards will look at the end. If I'm proven wrong at GamesCon and the Standards are revealed to be just as amazing on the exterior as the Premiums, then please do keep them together! But if things continue like I'm predicting they'll continue and the Standards are still going to look the same as they did on that small clip, then please do separate them! Because on that last case, not separating the cars could lead to the game's presentation getting knocked, since the Standards would pale and look ridiculous running next to Premiums.

As for ItsHim's reply: if PD do have more detailed models up their sleeves, like Toronado said a few post above, where are they? So far I see no improvement, at least in the modelling department. And as for GT5P being GT4 on PS3, I think you've got that pretty wrong. GT5P was made brand new for the PS3. Maybe you were thinking about GTHD?

They have given enough details about the game at E3. They will probably show more stuff before release. But I think that decision will be taken by PR team or something like that. The game has got both quality and quantity. Some 950+ cars with some 200 odd as premium. So I do not see the problem. I think people would have got GT5 anyways if lets say it had 250 cars only all premium with lots of tracks

I would love to see the latest build of standard cars too and especially I want to see all cars having cockpit. I think that is more important. But we will see. 3D models are important but without sharers, lightning effects, higher res, textures and so on gfx are nothing.

 

[Gryzor]

Analog, all I am saying is that for the majority of casual racing fans out there, a game like GT5 offers far more value for money than most racing games out there, yes, including F1. The source of that value is rather obvious I would have thought, coming from the sheer scale and beauty of the game in terms of looks and playability.

I don't disagree with the majority of what you wrote, but then again, I don't find it particularly relevant given that it is largely assumptive and incidental. If I had said that only car count mattered, or that F1 and GT5 were direct competitors with only one way of choosing between them, fair enough, but all you seem to be doing is making things up as you go along, especially as I had already told you that it was a simple extreme example of the value that £40 can get you between two different racing games. Nothing more, nothing less.

Elevate other things to the same high standards? I'm under the impression the rest of the game is up to pretty high standards (provided this day/night transition is available on all tracks and at least somewhat controllable). The Standards are the glaring example of things that need to be "elevated". The game itself is a ground-up design, but some of the Standards were modeled nearly 10 years ago!

Mind you, this is assuming PD has some vigorous quality control testing and irons out any bugs, say with online racing, or the very strange road-sign-stuck-in-GT-R bug.

For me, GT5 is a game, not a religion. From what we know and have seen so far, it is not perfect, and not everything in the game matches up to the same standards as the visuals on the premium cars.

Having said that, it is still my most anticipated game on the PS3 so far (if not of all time!), and I cannot wait to play it. When I say something can be improved, it does not mean I think that what is there already is crap. I just don't feel the need to convince myself that it is perfect, or that it is wrong to constructively criticise the efforts of the almighty Kaz. He is just a talented human being, not a god.

 

[Spagetti69]

Umm You just called him the almighty but he's not a god.

Confused dot com.

 

[digitalwolf]

Yes we know bout that. Who said anything about religion? like Kaz said its almost like a ps4 game taking graphics into account but no game will be "perfect" but you can be close.

Because 'some people' are being way to serious...

 

[Griffith500]

I stand by my opinion that the GT4 models can be spruced up in real-time / at run-time. Whether we will get that at launch will remain to be seen, or even if it is deemed worth the effort at all...

I'm not sure I'm overly bothered about waiting 'til GT6 for full Premiumification* of the car roster - I think even with GT6 there may be some standards knocking about - certainly by then some sort of sprucing system must be in place to "cope".

I'm more interested now in the whole "Premium Circuit" business, and exactly what features will be lacking from Standard components of the game in general. There's potential for yet more disappointment, so ready your team of Whaaambulances...

*The Original, and Best

 

[warp9engage]

They have given enough details about the game at E3. They will probably show more stuff before release. But I think that decision will be taken by PR team or something like that. The game has got both quality and quantity. Some 950+ cars with some 200 odd as premium. So I do not see the problem. I think people would have got GT5 anyways if lets say it had 250 cars only all premium with lots of tracks

I would love to see the latest build of standard cars too and especially I want to see all cars having cockpit. I think that is more important. But we will see. 3D models are important but without sharers, lightning effects, higher res, textures and so on gfx are nothing.

I do hope more details are shown before release, because it's a good sign when a developer showcases all features of their game. If they don't reveal everything then it's because they want us to have a surprise on the disk and more often than not, this surprise is not very positive. Normally, it's a good idea to show the world all of your game's amazing and unique features, as they will act as selling points for it. If you've decided to hide something from the press, it's probably because you're not very sure people are really going to like what they see.

Anyway, moving to the second part of your post. I truly wish I could share your optimism towards the Standard Cars but I just don't see much time for improvement on them. I find it's going to be difficult for PD to create a new build of the Standards, because time is running thin and mind you, they have 800+ cars to update, so putting dashboards on all those cars in going to be one hard, tough marathon which I think they can't do (unless maybe if they don't sleep or eat). As for 3D models being nothing without lighting effects, shaders etc, it's true. A crappy lighting engine will strugle to display even the best 3D model at it's proper potential. But it's even more true that no lighting engine, no matter how good it is can disguise a poorly made model. In the end both cannot be without the other, but the model ends up being the most important bit. Allow me to give some examples of why it it so:

- Regarding textures, imagine you do a drawing on a sheet of paper. You put the sheet of paper on the perfectly flat surface of a table and look at it straight from above. You'll see what you drew perfectly clearly. Now put the same sheet of paper on top of an irregular pile of rocks and look at it from the same direction. You'll notice that your drawing has been distorted due to the uneven surface the sheet is hugging. This is the same way with textures on 3D models. If the model is not fully smooth and has jagged edges then increasing texture resolution won't do much to prevent them from getting blurred by the awkward surface they're being pasted on to.

- Regarding shaders and other lighting effects, picture this: I've just built a brand new car and released a spy-shot from it. The shot is completely dark with only a tiny bit of light getting in through a crack in a window and shining on part of the car revealing a smooth front end line with stylish headlights. It gives the idea to you that the car is very sleek right? Well, in fact the car I've built only has a smooth front-end and the back looks like a box on wheels. This is an example of a model that is dependant on specific lighting conditions to look appealing. A good 3D model should look proper at any given time and unfortunately, I see some Stardard Cars looking great in the sun-light but bad in the shade which shouldn't happen.

 

[Spagetti69]

^ Wow, graphics for dummies.
Good post.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Yes we know bout that. Who said anything about religion? like Kaz said its almost like a ps4 game taking graphics into account but no game will be "perfect" but you can be close.

The people referring to Kaz as "Master" or "Sensei" are probably the ones taking things too seriously, perhaps he meant those ones?

Meh, the PS4 comment is the worst example of marketing spin so far for this game. Can they run 16 Premiums on track at a time smoothly on a PS3? Yeah? Well, so then it's... a PS3 game. Is it because they had poor time management and actually see a six month time period for modeling one car as a badge of honour? Again, they seem to run on the current-gen just fine. Meanwhile, 80% of the car lineup is infact PS2-level.

All this past-gen, apparent future-gen, mash-up... I wonder if it ever crossed anybody's minds at PD to make one entire game uniformly for this freakin' generation.

Gryzor - Don't get me wrong, it's one of my most anticipated PS3 titles this year too (so much so that I'm trying to get any other games I'm interested in out of the way before it launches), I too am wondering how every aspect of the game measures up to the perceived quality PD has hinted at. After all this time and money, they simply have to provide not just a great product, but an utterly exceptional one. Some people might complain that a lot of people will be running through the game with a fine-tooth comb, being extra critical. I feel it's justified after so much build-up, a lot of which has actually been due to PD themselves.

 

[CoolColJ]

- Regarding textures, imagine you do a drawing on a sheet of paper. You put the sheet of paper on the perfectly flat surface of a table and look at it straight from above. You'll see what you drew perfectly clearly. Now put the same sheet of paper on top of an irregular pile of rocks and look at it from the same direction. You'll notice that your drawing has been distorted due to the uneven surface the sheet is hugging. This is the same way with textures on 3D models. If the model is not fully smooth and has jagged edges then increasing texture resolution won't do much to prevent them from getting blurred by the awkward surface they're being pasted on to.

Maybe back in the old days, but these days, good texture painting tools will pre-process the texture so it doesn't render stretched on uneven surfaces.

 

[analog]

Analog, all I am saying is that for the majority of casual racing fans out there, a game like GT5 offers far more value for money than most racing games out there, yes, including F1. The source of that value is rather obvious I would have thought, coming from the sheer scale and beauty of the game in terms of looks and playability.

I don't disagree with the majority of what you wrote, but then again, I don't find it particularly relevant given that it is largely assumptive and incidental. If I had said that only car count mattered, or that F1 and GT5 were direct competitors with only one way of choosing between them, fair enough, but all you seem to be doing is making things up as you go along, especially as I had already told you that it was a simple extreme example of the value that £40 can get you between two different racing games. Nothing more, nothing less.

As I don't see where I've been assumptive and incidental apart maybe for going on too much about the example you used ( and perhaps misunderstood the intention of it ) and told was an extreme example to illustrate your point but there you go.
At least I think we can agree on the fact GT5 does deliver astonishing value for money ( although the two-tier system does in my opinion have the potential to really harm the experience ) not just for casual gamers but also for those who are planning to use it more "seriously", or use it more often than just being a casual ( or occasional ) piece of entertainment as the depth it offers will make it appeal to both groups.

 

[Dan_]

I'd just be a bit thrown off when I'm driving a Premium and the AI, in a Standard, hits me. I'll see my car damaged up, his won't look much different. Yes, I know mechanical damage is universal in the game, but you can't deny it's going to look strange having two very different visual levels of damage in a race.

Erhm, not really, now I'll fail miserably and won't be able to provide the appropriate link but, there's a statement in the official Gran turismo website:

"Damage won't be necessarily enabled for all races"

Meaning that we can actually get the scratches only damage mode for the hybrid races ( Premium and Standard cars on the track at the same time ) or no damage at all, it would be a lame solution but honestly, the Standards are mostly lame ported ( improved or not ) versions of GT4 assets, my only argument to keep the Premiums in, is the variety and the new physics engine which might make the Standards very cool cars to drive, just try not looking at them for too long.

As for the car count being remarkable... 1000 cars is a lot less impressive when I realize it's built up over almost 10 years. Some of the cars from GT3 (the C5R) are still carried over, so when I think about it in terms of years versus total count, it's a bit more reasonable. There's a reason other games don't have that all-important number...

Yeah, I agree, but if you sorta ignore the truth and just look at the raw number you would say: "Wow, four digits , impressive nonetheless".

 

[SCUD77]

I think the game would be better with less cars maybe 300 but having better detail on them all.
If there is a good spread of premium vehicles I will just get those and forget about the standard ones and to be honest I bet most players will have a much higher ratio of premium cars in there garages when they actually get playing, to me the standard cars are just there to bump the numbers up for the purposes of advertising the game.I just hope I can get an escort cosworth then ill be happy

 

[regnar]

Assuming that PD is not just dragging & dropping the GT4 models into GT5. I would think PD would go about creating new UV maps for each model, then applying new textures & other maps at GT5 standards. of course this has yet to been seen so far. Referring to the stretching of textures (GT4?) on models would seem to be poor mapping (planar?) I've seen this in FM3 when trying to apply livery's on some models.

My guess is the decision to use standards was made even before Prologue was released, at that point they had a pretty good idea of the amount of time it would take create a given number of premiums. The use of standard models was a way to kill two bird with one stone, using the same model, develop one for the PSP, the other for GT5. A year ago I wouldn't of guessed it.

Can't imagine that Kaz being the perfectionist wouldn't want to tweak each model before release. If not much info is release by TGS, then some fears my be realized. Personally I am fine with what I have seen so far but would expect more from PD.

 

[Skymeat]

The Standard/Premium thing is odd to me. I think I'm agreeing with many with:

As long as they can all race together and the game treats them as equals I'm okay with it. For me it's about how it drives first, and looks second.

 

[Tenacious D]

I do hope more details are shown before release, because it's a good sign when a developer showcases all features of their game. If they don't reveal everything then it's because they want us to have a surprise on the disk and more often than not, this surprise is not very positive. Normally, it's a good idea to show the world all of your game's amazing and unique features, as they will act as selling points for it. If you've decided to hide something from the press, it's probably because you're not very sure people are really going to like what they see.

Not this time. You're forgetting that the Sensei wants to build hype train momentum into the sales release, and has two shows he wants to make significant events.

How much to we still not know about GT5? Plenty.

• What goodies are we getting in Photo and Movie Mode? What will the max resolution be?
• Weather - what will it be?
• What will the depth of the damage system be for both Premium and Standard cars?
• Used cars - what is involved in aging cars, and what can be done about it in the shop?
• What kind of customization is there? Are there custom liveries? Will there be name brand tires and auto parts?
• Will Race Mod return, and how comprehensive will it be?
• Are there Standard tracks from the Gran Turismo legacy, such as Red Rock Valley and Grindelwald?
• What is the nature of the Track Editor?
• What kind of online structure is there, and what kind of club, team and league building tools are there?
• What about gokarts, what role will they play in the game?

And this is off the top of my head. We only learned that there would be used cars towards the end of E3!

There is a TON of things yet to be revealed about GT5, and I'm quite sure they aren't being hidden because they're lame.

I know some of you guys think the Standard cars are totally lame, and I know the reasoning behind this view. But I also think you guys are being silly, prejudging something before you have a chance to let it present itself. I've been spending more than a month playing GT4 and living in Photo Mode with cars which aren't going to look as good as the Standard cars in GT5. The PS2 is much more primitive. The GT4 engine is much more primitive. And yet, I'm amazed at how good the images are that you can capture on that old, obsolete system from that outdated game. SlipZtrEm must be getting sick of how awestruck I am that I can get pics like this:

But I am. I'm anxious to take high res pics in GT5 of Standard cars and Standard tracks if we get them, alongside the Premiums. You can call me crazy if you want to, that's fine with me.

And I can't stress how shortsighted some of you are for wanting to segregate the Premium and Standard cars in races. As I posted yesterday, you're going to have some pretty thin selections for Premium races if you do, such as facing races with as few as one model available in some classes. How many one make races do you want to participate in? That only goes so far with me. I know Slip mentioned the damage issue. So make damage uniform, and save the body shattering level for your beloved Premium only races. And undoubtedly, there will be ways for you guys to race Premiums solely, so you can do so to your heart's content. Don't deem that this kind of apartheid is a good idea, or the only way to go, because this isn't a universally shared view. We can all enjoy GT5 in our own way, and there is no right and wrong way to do it. You know, the much lauded "freedom of choice" which in this case we should definitely have.