Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[shirakawaa]

This was discussed here back in the day. We've seen an old corvette, can't remember the exact model unfortunately, that have considerably better textures.

I can't search for it right now but it shouldn't be hard to find.

And I remember a similar discussion on the Corvette C5R showing exactly the same textures in GT4.
The standard cars video posted above didn't convince me about better textures either.

* * * Edited to add: * * *

I haven't managed to find the discussion, but here are the pics:

GT4: http://i7.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0621/ae/e98d6bc7a021a08dd8fd2249e828afae.jpeg
GT5 "Standard cars video" http://i7.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0621/ef/a2e883b193561be0bcc96158107701ef.jpeg

Same 3D model, same (upscaled, therefore blurry and lacking detail) textures.
I do recognize that the light and reflections are better, though.

 

[DoctorFouad]

And I remember a similar discussion on the Corvette C5R showing exactly the same textures in GT4.
The standard cars video posted above didn't convince me about better textures either.

* * * Edited to add: * * *

I haven't managed to find the discussion, but here are the pics:

GT4: http://i7.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0621/ae/e98d6bc7a021a08dd8fd2249e828afae.jpeg
GT5 "Standard cars video" http://i7.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0621/ef/a2e883b193561be0bcc96158107701ef.jpeg

Same 3D model, same (upscaled, therefore blurry and lacking detail) textures.
I do recognize that the light and reflections are better, though.

yup they look the same but one with better lighting/shadows + better motion blur (in replay mode only)

maybe polyphony are using the same GT4 models and textures, they didnt upgrade the texture resolution which if true than this is disappointing...textures would have benefited from a higher resolution rendering...

 

[iLex]

yup they look the same but one with better lighting/shadows + better motion blur (in replay mode only)

maybe polyphony are using the same GT4 models and textures, they didnt upgrade the texture resolution which if true than this is disappointing...textures would have benefited from a higher resolution rendering...

I cant imagine them not updating the texture resolution. I know they've been working hard on the premium cars, but having a small team redo the textures for the standard cars shouldn't be a problem... right?

 

[MadduckUK]

I cant imagine them not updating the texture resolution. I know they've been working hard on the premium cars, but having a small team redo the textures for the standard cars shouldn't be a problem... right?

i would guess they will have done, we shall see

 

[Griffith500]

I think this could be related to draw distance. Like when a building or mountain pop in from very far away. Or how cars don't look that great in the rearview mirror like in prologue.

It's related to draw distance, yes; except it's the distance from the player car. You can see the cars that have their lights on "properly" changes according to where the player is. It's always the three or four around the player that have their lights on "projection" mode...

It's simply a type of Level of Detail scaling. 👍

 

[shirakawaa]

I cant imagine them not updating the texture resolution. I know they've been working hard on the premium cars, but having a small team redo the textures for the standard cars shouldn't be a problem... right?

It's a big problem in my opinion, since on standard cars panel gaps, smaller details, even shadows and highlights are all textured at a pixel-painting level, while on premium cars they are the natural result of way more detailed and advanced 3D modeling.

So basically they would have to remake standard cars almost from scratch (a great deal of artistic work is needed for textures that manage to fake details so nicely as they did in past games) just for GT5. That would be wasted time, since the future is high-poly 3D car modeling.

The only improvement I can see possible in GT5 is using slightly modified premium 3D car bodies for similar standard cars: for example the countless versions of R32,33,34-gen Skylines, MX-5, etc. of which at least one premium model already exists (from what we have seen so far), as I have already suggested multiple times in this thread. If PD haven't already done this where possible I'd think they're holding back content for GT6 or "premium car pack" DLC...

 

[analog]

Most people here assume that all the cars from GT4 are standards and have therefore no cockpit view. But in this video you see a BMW M5 (which was already in GT4) WITH cockpit view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a36YldQ-WmY

Is the beamer an exception, just a new modelyear (as with the Aston DB9 from the apex magazine), or cockpit view for standards anyway?

Just to make it clear, all new cars to the series have been modelled as Premium, meaning all cars not previously seen in any GT-game before ( including GT-PSP ).
In addition to the cars new to the series ( as in real life car models ) some cars, like the BMW M5 and Mercedes 300 SL Gullwing for example, which were present before were chosen to be completely remodelled as Premium.
The Aston DB9 is a curious case, and there are some more cars like it, which seem to be present as both Premium and Standard.
Standard cars however haven't got cockpit view, so you have Premium cars ( new and some cars already in previous games ), and cars carried over from either GT4 or GT-PSP ( Standard ), no newly added cars are Standard.

 

[cpl_richie]

This may have already been discussed in the thread (way too many pages to read through), but it would seem that through careful selection the number of premium cars could be enlarged quite easily.

Generally between car models, the basic shape gets tweaked a few times before a 'completely' new model is released (ie Evo 7 to 9). With a bit of thought PD could easily have a much larger number of premium cars than if all of the premium models were randomly selected. This doesn't include cars which will feature numerous variants (R34 skyline for example).

 

[Tornado]

http://translate.google.com.ni/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://www.nicagamerz.com/v6/news/166/gran-turismo-5-tiene-756-carros-estandar/&act=url

244 premiums is okay but i hope they can reach the 300 level

If 756 cars make up the Standard Car list rather than 830, you wouldn't be able to imagine how happy that would make me.

And I remember a similar discussion on the Corvette C5R showing exactly the same textures in GT4.
The standard cars video posted above didn't convince me about better textures either.

* * * Edited to add: * * *

I haven't managed to find the discussion, but here are the pics:

GT4: http://i7.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0621/ae/e98d6bc7a021a08dd8fd2249e828afae.jpeg
GT5 "Standard cars video" http://i7.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0621/ef/a2e883b193561be0bcc96158107701ef.jpeg

Same 3D model, same (upscaled, therefore blurry and lacking detail) textures.
I do recognize that the light and reflections are better, though.

That wasn't the Corvette we were talking about.

 

[witham]

^^^ Maybe some of the cars are premiums like the 5 series BMW that was in GT4 but that has got an interior on GT5 and is premium. So maybe we will get more premiums than we thought.

 

[BenzAMG]

They always said more than 200 premiums, so for all we know it could be 299 cars.
I guess polyphony doesn't even know until the last moment how many cars exactly are in.

How long did it take polyphony to make Prologue? There like 70 (premium)cars in prologue?

 

[Tornado]

Well, I certainly hope they won't be doing the "Kaz personally holds up the game so he can add another car" stuff this time.

 

[shirakawaa]

This may have already been discussed in the thread (way too many pages to read through), but it would seem that through careful selection the number of premium cars could be enlarged quite easily.

Generally between car models, the basic shape gets tweaked a few times before a 'completely' new model is released (ie Evo 7 to 9). With a bit of thought PD could easily have a much larger number of premium cars than if all of the premium models were randomly selected. This doesn't include cars which will feature numerous variants (R34 skyline for example).

I tried to bring up this argument many times in the past couple dozen pages.
To me it makes much sense that in order to raise the number of Premium models, PD would convert similar standard models where possible. It wouldn't take much work (opposed to the 6 months of man-time in average to create each Premium model from scratch - if you trust those figures) and would both benefit both Polyphony Digital (better figures to show, more content that would blow away the competition, etc) and users.

If you have had a look at the old and now closed car list thread, you can see that many cars from GT4/PSP could benefit from this "easy and quick improvement program", but they would be mainly cars from the japanese market... not that I would not want that, of course. Some examples:

S2000 -> All S2000 models (even tuned, except most wicked ones)
Integra Type-R (DC5-gen, '04) -> All DC5 Integra
Mazda RX-7 Spirit-R Type-A (FD-gen, '02) -> All FD RX-7
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec II (R32-gen, '94) -> All R32 Skyline GT-R

 

[Traviizter]

All I can say is:

Would you have 1000 cars, all of them 'Standard', no Exterior Damage, Interiors or none of them having the 'Best Graphics'.
OR
Would you have 1000 cars; 200 or them having the things listed above, and 800 of them not having the above, yet still having great physics, and over GT4, greatly improved graphics. Probably with Racing Mods and Rims/Paint/Livery Editor.

I would go with the latter. If you don't like what I've just said, think of the Premiums as taster models to what GT6 (and maybe the PS4) will be able to do. I don't think the PS3 right now is capable to have 16 HD cars, all with damage, interiors and awesome graphics without some kind of lag or slowing, especially online.

 

[kyleh613]

Traviizter has the right idea. It comes down to compromises in the games design which PD has to make. They can't work miracles here. A video game in this day and age is very difficult to develop and Gran Turismo 5 is still the best looking racing sim to date with the most content. To complain about the premium car selection has always seemed really silly to me.

 

[DoctorFouad]

Traviizter has the right idea. It comes down to compromises in the games design which PD has to make. They can't work miracles here. A video game in this day and age is very difficult to develop and Gran Turismo 5 is still the best looking racing sim to date with the most content. To complain about the premium car selection has always seemed really silly to me.

I totally agree

 

[DoctorFouad]

I cant imagine them not updating the texture resolution. I know they've been working hard on the premium cars, but having a small team redo the textures for the standard cars shouldn't be a problem... right?

it could be a problem if polyphony didnt plan this during the GT4 development.

what I mean is this : if for example the GT4 cars textures have a resolution of 512*512 and polyphony artists didnt backup a copy of a higher res textures (1024*1024 for example) to use in future hardware....than it would be problematic for polyphony to redo all of the 800 car textures...

apparently and unfortunately this could be the case....

I really hope polyphony made the cars in GT5 this time future proof (backuping a higher res mesh and textures for each car to use in future hardware) or else polyphony will be forced to recreate cars from scratch for future hardware and thus loose a lot of time....

I dunno why they didnt make GT4 cars future proof...maybe they thought it wasent worth the effort, hopefully they learned from their mistakes...

 

[Dravonic]

And I remember a similar discussion on the Corvette C5R showing exactly the same textures in GT4.
The standard cars video posted above didn't convince me about better textures either.

* * * Edited to add: * * *

I haven't managed to find the discussion, but here are the pics:

GT4: http://i7.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0621/ae/e98d6bc7a021a08dd8fd2249e828afae.jpeg
GT5 "Standard cars video" http://i7.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0621/ef/a2e883b193561be0bcc96158107701ef.jpeg

Same 3D model, same (upscaled, therefore blurry and lacking detail) textures.
I do recognize that the light and reflections are better, though.

Not the CR5. This would be the one:

The improvement in the textures SlipZtrEm was talking about is related to the textured shutlines being thinner in the standard car:

(Messed around with the GT4 image to make it look more like the GT5 one)

The body isn't textured but the shutlines are, and the only way they can get thinner is if PD improved the texture. Well, not necessarily improved but they did something to it. It's much less apparent now. Not sure the lighting engine alone can do that.

 

[shirakawaa]

With such microscopic images how can you be sure that texture quality has improved? PD could have simply toned opacity down for the video to make it blend better with the bodywork and make it seem of better resolution and less "cartoony". Or it could be the angle of the car relatively to the camera that makes this "blending" effect together with the new graphics engine.

The C5R from the same video (if I'm not wrong) in full detail and zoom shows that there have been virtually no improvements other than image (not texture) resolution, car reflections/light and, apparently, wheels.

* * *

Edited to add:

For example, in the image you posted I first deleted one of the headlights from the car, then layered the differences with the original image at 25% opacity.
Note how the effect is similar to the right image despite the very quick job I made:

 

[maxpontiac]

All I can say is:

Would you have 1000 cars, all of them 'Standard', no Exterior Damage, Interiors or none of them having the 'Best Graphics'.
OR
Would you have 1000 cars; 200 or them having the things listed above, and 800 of them not having the above, yet still having great physics, and over GT4, greatly improved graphics. Probably with Racing Mods and Rims/Paint/Livery Editor.

I would go with the latter. If you don't like what I've just said, think of the Premiums as taster models to what GT6 (and maybe the PS4) will be able to do. I don't think the PS3 right now is capable to have 16 HD cars, all with damage, interiors and awesome graphics without some kind of lag or slowing, especially online.

Excellent post that defines exactly what my thoughts are on the matter.

Plus, let us see what they look like, you know, come November 2nd..💡

 

[Khaddar]

With such microscopic images how can you be sure that texture quality has improved? PD could have simply toned opacity down for the video to make it blend better with the bodywork and make it seem of better resolution and less "cartoony". Or it could be the angle of the car relatively to the camera that makes this "blending" effect together with the new graphics engine.

The C5R from the same video (if I'm not wrong) in full detail and zoom shows that there have been virtually no improvements other than image (not texture) resolution, car reflections/light and, apparently, wheels.

I think it's highly unlikely that the viewing angle could have that effect. As for the other suggested reasons, I think you may well be right with any of them, but ultimately I don't care - the issue has been whether standard cars are visually improved from GT4, and the question of improved textures has been merely a way of trying to prove or disprove this. Come November 5th, if standard cars look like the image on the right then I shall be very happy regardless of how it's been achieved.

My personal suspicion is that it's a combination of the improved rendering engine and output at 768p rather than 480i which makes it look better without necessarily "being" better. That's good enough for me.

 

[Devedander]

All I can say is:

Would you have 1000 cars, all of them 'Standard', no Exterior Damage, Interiors or none of them having the 'Best Graphics'.
OR
Would you have 1000 cars; 200 or them having the things listed above, and 800 of them not having the above, yet still having great physics, and over GT4, greatly improved graphics. Probably with Racing Mods and Rims/Paint/Livery Editor.

I would go with the latter. If you don't like what I've just said, think of the Premiums as taster models to what GT6 (and maybe the PS4) will be able to do.

All I can say is False Dichotomy.

This thread really has gone full cycle a few times as this certainly isn't the first time we have had the argument that what's there should be viewed not as the GT5 we have been waiting for an expecting, but rather as something much less such that in THAT light it looks great.

It's basically a case of "Don't look at it as a poor quality steak, look at it as a really high quality hamburger".

We waited this long for a taste of GT6 and not a real GT5? Sorry... didn't fly the last few times people tried to shape it up that way and still doesnt.

It is kind of interesting though how the GT fanbase has gone from "Kazunory San shouldn't be doubted and his artwork is impeccable. You shoudln't question the talents of the Master" type stuff to "They are only human, they didn't have enough time and it's not that bad if you look at it from this angle instead of head on".

I don't think the PS3 right now is capable to have 16 HD cars, all with damage, interiors and awesome graphics without some kind of lag or slowing, especially online.

I don't think you understand how it works... I am pretty sure the current plan is exactly to have 16 HD cars with damage/interiors etc. You are confusing the time it would take to create all those cars to that quality vs the ability of the PS3 to render them all in that quality.

 

[Griffith500]

All I can say is False Dichotomy.

This thread really has gone full cycle a few times as this certainly isn't the first time we have had the argument that what's there should be viewed not as the GT5 we have been waiting for an expecting, but rather as something much less such that in THAT light it looks great.

It's basically a case of "Don't look at it as a poor quality steak, look at it as a really high quality hamburger".

We waited this long for a taste of GT6 and not a real GT5? Sorry... didn't fly the last few times people tried to shape it up that way and still doesnt.

The interesting thing about that part is that it's only a problem if the meat-based treat is / was advertised as a steak in the first place; otherwise, it's perfectly fine. As has been said so many times now, it's basically just a case of expectation vs. outcome. This has also been discussed to death, of course.

I personally expect GT5 will be a taster for GT6, just the way it always has been with previous versions.

 

[gtracedriver]

It would be nice if they had shown more of standard cars. Comparing standard to GT4 cars make no sense at all. Obviously GT5 standard will look great with the shaders and lighting model they are using on PS3. Also more pixel and better textures will make it more beautiful.

It is still unknown whether standard and premiums can race with each other or not

 

[Traviizter]

All I can say is False Dichotomy.

This thread really has gone full cycle a few times as this certainly isn't the first time we have had the argument that what's there should be viewed not as the GT5 we have been waiting for an expecting, but rather as something much less such that in THAT light it looks great.

It's basically a case of "Don't look at it as a poor quality steak, look at it as a really high quality hamburger".

We waited this long for a taste of GT6 and not a real GT5? Sorry... didn't fly the last few times people tried to shape it up that way and still doesnt.

I don't think you understand how it works... I am pretty sure the current plan is exactly to have 16 HD cars with damage/interiors etc. You are confusing the time it would take to create all those cars to that quality vs the ability of the PS3 to render them all in that quality.

To me, the graphics is only part of the package. It's not about the cars looking absolutely spotless you know. How would you like to play a game which had the best graphics yet, but the worst physics yet? In fact, you probably wouldn't, although you seem to be a bit of a weird one, so you probably would. As I've said, there is (unbeknown to you) a limit to what the PS3 can do; whether this has been achieved yet, I'm not sure, but I think GT5 will be the peak of the PS3's capabilities. It's a shame you are so ignorant, perhaps then the posts people make would make sense to you.

 

[Griffith500]

It would be nice if they had shown more of standard cars. Comparing standard to GT4 cars make no sense at all. Obviously GT5 standard will look great with the shaders and lightning model they are using on PS3. Also more pixel and better textures will make it more beautiful.

It is still unknown whether standard and premiums can race with each other or not

Yes, more exposure would be great. People may have a chance to get used to it before playing the game. I'm just interested to see what they look like with all the new bells and whistles

By the way: lighting vs. lightning

 

[tinram]

The glass has 800ml orange juice and 200ml vodka, looks like a screwdriver cocktail to me yey

 

[Devedander]

The interesting thing about that part is that it's only a problem if the meat-based treat is / was advertised as a steak in the first place; otherwise, it's perfectly fine. As has been said so many times now, it's basically just a case of expectation vs. outcome. This has also been discussed to death, of course.

Without stretching the analogies out too far, this has been covered already and unless you want to fall back on a irrationally pedantic view, it's pretty clear PD have implied and built expectation of a game of GT5P or better quality acrosst the board only to have that change at the alst second pretty severely.

To take the analogy as far as it really can go, it would be like a big poster of delicious steaks with a tagline "Bob Steak House, making the best steaks for 10 years!" with a little sample tray with pieces of delicious steak on it at the front and videos and stories about how their steaks are curied deliciously and meticulously.

Then upon delivery of a burger being told "It doesn't say anywhere specifically that you will be served a steak and not a hamburger".

I personally expect GT5 will be a taster for GT6, just the way it always has been with previous versions.

Now you do. What if I had asked you that question a year or two ago?

 

[Devedander]

To me, the graphics is only part of the package. It's not about the cars looking absolutely spotless you know. How would you like to play a game which had the best graphics yet, but the worst physics yet?

You love thsoe false dichotomies don't you?

In fact, you probably wouldn't, although you seem to be a bit of a weird one, so you probably would. As I've said, there is (unbeknown to you) a limit to what the PS3 can do; whether this has been achieved yet, I'm not sure, but I think GT5 will be the peak of the PS3's capabilities. It's a shame you are so ignorant, perhaps then the posts people make would make sense to you.

This is rich, the guy who doesn't understand standard cars enough to realize that what he said about not being able to push 16 HD cars on screen at once makes no sense and only shows off his own ignorance of the situation comes up with that?

Nice try bub, but you obviously are talking out the south end of a north facing bovine. The irony here is thick

BTW Welcome to GTP! I hope both your days here so far have been enjoyable, might I suggest you take a little time to actually read back through this thread and educate yourself a little on what has been discussed as well as how what we are talking about actually works before spouting off some more? It might, you know, keep you from shoving your foot in your mouth with such force in the future

 

[Traviizter]

I said: I don't think the PS3 right now is capable to have 16 HD cars, all with damage, interiors and awesome graphics without some kind of lag or slowing, especially online.

You replied:

I don't think you understand how it works... I am pretty sure the current plan is exactly to have 16 HD cars with damage/interiors etc. You are confusing the time it would take to create all those cars to that quality vs the ability of the PS3 to render them all in that quality.

Let me repeat what I said, pointing the key words out.
I don't think the PS3 right now is capable to have 16 HD cars, all with damage, interiors and awesome graphics without some kind of lag or slowing, especially online.

Read the bold.. Let me explain 'I don't think'. I'm 'assuming', or making an 'estimated guess'. I didn't say 'The PS3 won't or will never be able to do XXXXX'.