Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Devedander]

I said: I don't think the PS3 right now is capable to have 16 HD cars, all with damage, interiors and awesome graphics without some kind of lag or slowing, especially online.

You replied:


Let me repeat what I said, pointing the key words out.
I don't think the PS3 right now is capable to have 16 HD cars, all with damage, interiors and awesome graphics without some kind of lag or slowing, especially online.

Read the bold.. Let me explain 'I don't think'. I'm 'assuming', or making an 'estimated guess'. I didn't say 'The PS3 won't or will never be able to do XXXXX'.

Ok let's break this down into it's seperate parts:

1: What does that have to do with standards and premiums? Either you are bringing something up that has no relevance to the topic at hand, or you are saying that the PS3s processnig power and inability to render 16 cars on screen at once of that quality is what leads to the need for standard cars.

2: You do realize the plan is exactly to have 16 premium cars on track at once right?

It's all fine to say "I think" and it's good that you didn't try to state it as a fact, but honestly if thats what you think, you are only showing how little you know about the subject.

 

[Traviizter]

Sigh... Listen. The PS3 is getting on a bit, and I am guessing that something will not appear right, the graphics, game speed, whatever. In fact, on Fiji Speedway F in one of the Tuned Races, the game slows down significantly around the tightest corner because of all the cars that can appear on screen at that time. You may not have had that experience, but I have, so I am assuming (keyword) that the game (perhaps at some stages, perhaps at all, will not always be able to keep the steady 60fps promised. Even Kaz said it. And that was what I was talking about, if somehow you hadn't already guessed.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

...so now people are saying GT5 should really be looked at as... GT6P?



Stuff like this:

Would you have 1000 cars, all of them 'Standard', no Exterior Damage, Interiors or none of them having the 'Best Graphics'.
OR
Would you have 1000 cars; 200 or them having the things listed above, and 800 of them not having the above, yet still having great physics, and over GT4, greatly improved graphics. Probably with Racing Mods and Rims/Paint/Livery Editor.

Has no basis; you and I both know equally little about the choices PD had, to assume that those were the only two certainly seems naive.

Until we start seeing reviews (and hopefully PD hasn't muzzled the media outlets with NDA's about them), I imagine we won't see much of the Standards until we pop the disc into our own systems. The gold 'Vette shows that something has been tinkered with, with that lone car anyways, even if it is a quick fix like SHIRAKAWA mentioned. Why it's been the only Standard to show improvements to the actual model over it's GT4 counterpart is a mystery.

I'm still expecting Standards to not have as much visual modification as Premiums, due to their model makeup. Plus, if I'm wrong, at least I'll be getting more than I expected

 

[shirakawaa]

I think it's highly unlikely that the viewing angle could have that effect.

A trick for making standard cars look better without actually improving their textures would be toning panel/doorgaps opacity down when viewed close to a right angle, and up when looked in parallel, while keeping the average opacity down to make textures blend better with the bodywork (as I demonstrated). That would help give a better sense of depth since textured GT4 panel gaps appear to be rather dark and thick.

As for the other suggested reasons, I think you may well be right with any of them, but ultimately I don't care - the issue has been whether standard cars are visually improved from GT4, and the question of improved textures has been merely a way of trying to prove or disprove this. Come November 5th, if standard cars look like the image on the right then I shall be very happy regardless of how it's been achieved.

My personal suspicion is that it's a combination of the improved rendering engine and output at 768p rather than 480i which makes it look better without necessarily "being" better. That's good enough for me.

As long as physics are improved to premium-level I don't care too much about standard cars quality either. However the notion that texture quality has been improved is wrong (from what we've seen so far) or at the very least doubtful and I was merely demonstrating that.

 

[Devedander]

You may not have had that experience, but I have, so I am assuming (keyword) that the game (perhaps at some stages, perhaps at all, will not always be able to keep the steady 60fps promised. Even Kaz said it. And that was what I was talking about, if somehow you hadn't already guessed.

Again you are showing that you are here to talk without having taken the time to actually read up on the subject at hand. Kaz has specifically said that there will be times when the frame rate drops.

Look all I am saying is that you are making statements that show you don't really know what you are on about. It's not like it's a horrible thing because the amount of new info flying around here is huge but the best you can come up with is generalized statements about how you feel with no detail or solid reason to explain those statements.

To say the PS3 is getting on and I think this and that is all good and fine except you are knee deep in people who actualy understand and know the details about how the graphics chip in the PS3 functions, it's limitations, how they can be stretched via direct shared memory access and what it takes to render cars, store the resultant information and process it.

You are coming across as a high school tuner walking into a grage of gear heads who have all be focused on one subject for a long time, then spouting off and telling them they don't know what thye are talknig about.

 

[Griffith500]

Without stretching the analogies out too far, this has been covered already and unless you want to fall back on a irrationally pedantic view, it's pretty clear PD have implied and built expectation of a game of GT5P or better quality acrosst the board only to have that change at the alst second pretty severely.

To take the analogy as far as it really can go, it would be like a big poster of delicious steaks with a tagline "Bob Steak House, making the best steaks for 10 years!" with a little sample tray with pieces of delicious steak on it at the front and videos and stories about how their steaks are curied deliciously and meticulously.

Then upon delivery of a burger being told "It doesn't say anywhere specifically that you will be served a steak and not a hamburger".

I said it had been covered. This sort of thing is no different to marketing / advertising anywhere else. "Always read the small-print"; "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is"; "fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me" - these sayings exist for a reason. You are solely responsible for your own expectations.

I'm not saying this sort of intentionally-misleading practice is acceptable (if that is indeed the case with PD / Sony here), but I know that I was a skeptic from the start - and now I'm not feeling too bad about the whole thing, although I am apprehensive about any potential, still yet-to-be-revealed features and how the standard / premium split affects those features.

Now you do. What if I had asked you that question a year or two ago?

I'd have said the same, since that's (almost) always been the case! Before the release of GT2 might have been a different story, though. Back then I relied more on magazines - i.e. what other people think. Still, thinking the next game will be "like the current game, but with a few extras" is a sensible starting point, so in that sense it really is a preview / taster.

We've all had access (whether we knew it or not) to the same information; in this instance, I don't care if you feel mislead - because it's your fault. We should take all information during the development of a game (or anything else, for that matter) with a pinch of salt, anyway. You can only really judge the finished article.

 

[analog]

Analogies, I'll have a go at it although I do like to stress I've come to accept this whole situation ( not much choice really ) and will wait for the final game to make up my mind how I will treat this whole two-tier system, as it might turn out ( with all new features and comprehensive online mode ) the amount of cars may not be one of the most important aspects in a GT-game for the first time since the original ( which ironically makes the inclusion of Standard cars even more absurd ).

Now here it goes ( and it's a bit extreme ); I'm actually glad for Kaz he's chosen a career ( and succesful at it ) as a game developer instead of accidentally landing in the drug trade, imagine him giving you a sample of high quality pure uncut Cocaine ( Prologue ) and then, when you placed an order for a large quantity, he delivers 1/5 of that high quality stuff cut up with whatever presciption drugs he still had left in his medicine cabinet.....( a very short-lived career I reckon )
Now these prescription drugs may be perfectly fine before experiencing the buzz provided by that Cocaine but you weren't expecting this watered down cocktail when tasting that sample.
Unfortunately there isn't another dealer you can contact ( unless the one providing Heroin ) and the 1/5 of Cocaine is of such high quality and comes in such a nice gift wrapped package ( including a nice selection of mirrors, razorblades and 100$ bills ) you might enjoy it after feeling shortchanged for quite a while.

Okay, not a very serious analogy perhaps but there you go ( and not meant disrespectful ), although I do like to point out this isn't based on real life experience.
Also I see many people "defending" the Standard cars by reasoning the variety and amount of cars as the main argument.
Fair enough, although when criticizing the Standard cars people must know it isn't about the real life cars those Standard cars replicate, it's the way they are replicated.

 

[gtracedriver]

There should not be confusion between gfx. They are pushing it as much as it can go right now. Only slightly disappointing thing is that they should have had more premiums A simple texture mod which happens in some PC games can increase the quality of standard cars

Yes, more exposure would be great. People may have a chance to get used to it before playing the game. I'm just interested to see what they look like with all the new bells and whistles

By the way: lighting vs. lightning

I have fixed it

 

[Devedander]

I said it had been covered. This sort of thing is no different to marketing / advertising anywhere else. "Always read the small-print"; "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is"; "fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me" - these sayings exist for a reason. You are solely responsible for your own expectations.

I'm not saying this sort of intentionally-misleading practice is acceptable (if that is indeed the case with PD / Sony here), but I know that I was a skeptic from the start - and now I'm not feeling too bad about the whole thing, although I am apprehensive about any potential, still yet-to-be-revealed features and how the standard / premium split affects those features.

While I agree marketing is skeevy across the board, I don't know that I can really write this off as the same thing. I mean there wasn't really any fine print, at best there was inconclusive print. At least fine print spells out the details which we can't really say here.

I'd have said the same, since that's (almost) always been the case! Before the release of GT2 might have been a different story, though. Back then I relied more on magazines - i.e. what other people think. Still, thinking the next game will be "like the current game, but with a few extras" is a sensible starting point, so in that sense it really is a preview / taster.

We've all had access (whether we knew it or not) to the same information; in this instance, I don't care if you feel mislead - because it's your fault. We should take all information during the development of a game (or anything else, for that matter) with a pinch of salt, anyway. You can only really judge the finished article.

Well you are one of the few then... I mean as sceptical as I obviously am, I didn't even suspect this coming. I know GTs history of doing the even numbered ones as a sort of a filling out of the odd numbered ones, but something this drastic was not something I think there was any precident to expect.

 

[Traviizter]

You are coming across as a high school tuner walking into a grage of gear heads who have all be focused on one subject for a long time, then spouting off and telling them they don't know what thye are talknig about.

Well, you're coming across as a very unhappy person. I shared my opinion, you shared yours, now let's end this because, seriously, I didn't join GTP to be greeted with negativity.

OffTopic: However, I must say, I did see one of your posts in the 'No demo for PSN' thread and you made some good points. (This sounds SO cheesy).

BackOnTopic: I hope that you don't think I'm chickening out of this 'argument'; think of this as a truce offering. Plus I cba to argue anymore :/

 

[eSZee]

The glass has 800ml orange juice and 200ml vodka, looks like a screwdriver cocktail to me yey

The proportions seem about right for the average american. They'll probably need a chaser for it too.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

A simple texture mod which happens in some PC games can increase the quality of standard cars

It'd only improve them visually. It wouldn't suddenly fix the features they're lacking.

 

[VXR]

There was such a mundane European selection from some of the brands in GT4 that you have to wonder why they're just sending them all across, when they could have at least made the Standard line-up concise and worthwhile. It's a bad situation for them to be in, they could have at least tried to make the standards appear like a 'greatest hits' of GT4 and not an anthology of everything with the motoring equivalent of a studio demo at the poor end of the spectrum.

 

[analog]

There was such a mundane European selection from some of the brands in GT4 that you have to wonder why they're just sending them all across, when they could have at least made the Standard line-up concise and worthwhile. It's a bad situation for them to be in, they could have at least tried to make the standards appear like a 'greatest hits' of GT4 and not an anthology of everything with the motoring equivalent of a studio demo at the poor end of the spectrum.

If the quality of the cars remained the same when offering a small "greatest hits" collection or selection of Standard cars why not offer the complete anthology for everyone to decide themselves which to perceive as greatest hit and which are considered a miss?
I don't care much for the amount of Standard cars included as it won't increase the amount of Premium cars and the inconsistency remains whether there will be 800 or 400.
And since when is mundanity a criteria for exclusion in GT? Again the sort of cars included ( as in their real life counterparts ) isn't being discussed here.

 

[VXR]

They already fail to show GT5 in its best light by being of lesser quality. Why have the cars within that selection that are lesser quality, too? If standard cars are mixed with premiums, then presumably there'll be races designed for standard cars only and that takes time. Time that could have been spent on the track editor perhaps or another feature.

It's just an idea, especially as all this split has done is drive people's imaginations.

 

[analog]

They already fail to show GT5 in its best light by being of lesser quality. Why have the cars within that selection that are lesser quality, too? If standard cars are mixed with premiums, then presumably there'll be races designed for standard cars only and that takes time. Time that could have been spent on the track editor perhaps or another feature.

It's just an idea, especially as all this split has done is drive people's imaginations.

I'm not sure about the time factor, you could be right about it, I simply don't know but I do find it strange to question the perceived subjective quality of the cars themselves, the main theme this thread tends to discuss is the quality of modelling and therefore the differences in graphics and features between the two-tiers of cars, not the actual car list which is highly subjective.
The cars you may find too humdrum, mundane or boring may be a joy for others and vice versa.
I guess the race events specific for Standard cars, if we for now assume this might be the case, would I guess not take anymore time whether they'd include 800 or 400, it's the cars needing to be updated I guess which will be the most time consuming ( again I don't know how long that takes or what it takes, I imagine compared to building a Premium car relatively ( very ) short, may even be done on the entire selection as a whole instead of each car separate ).

 

[MGS2 Snake]

They should just keep everything the same.
Just like the hundreds of thousands out there, I don't want another delay.

 

[Dravonic]

With such microscopic images how can you be sure that texture quality has improved? PD could have simply toned opacity down for the video to make it blend better with the bodywork and make it seem of better resolution and less "cartoony". Or it could be the angle of the car relatively to the camera that makes this "blending" effect together with the new graphics engine.

The C5R from the same video (if I'm not wrong) in full detail and zoom shows that there have been virtually no improvements other than image (not texture) resolution, car reflections/light and, apparently, wheels.

* * *

Edited to add:

For example, in the image you posted I first deleted one of the headlights from the car, then layered the differences with the original image at 25% opacity.
Note how the effect is similar to the right image despite the very quick job I made:

True, there are other ways to achieve better looking textures than just increasing the resolution and maybe PD used one of them. So there's really no way to affirm the textures are improved in a higher resolution sense. However, I would say that whatever they did really made them look better and that's by all means an improvement.

Keep in mind though that GT4 cars were made with future proofing in mind, and although PD failed miserably at it, they do have better models and textures in photomode locations in GT4, and those are the ones used in GT5. Since the CR5 is a GT3 car, hence not "future proofed", that can be a reason why it's textures look pretty much the same.

 

[Omamder5]

From what I've seen in the video showcasing standard cars, the visual quality of the cars is high enough to not bother me at all. Of course, I'll have to see it in person on a TV for me to make a final decision, but from what I understand, the standard cars look just fine. I hope they are as good as the premiums in terms of physics and how they react with weather and dirt. Has this been gone over already? Maybe I missed it...

I would like it if PD had premium car DLC in the future, and wouln't even mind standard car DLC.

The sheer number of cars in the game is frankly
mind-boggling, and I haven't goten my head around it yet. I'll really need to give myself a good 30 minutes to scroll through and check out a good portion of the cars to really appreciate the quantity of them. I'm excited to drive most, if not all, of the standards as well as the premuims.

 

[Devedander]

From what I've seen in the video showcasing standard cars, the visual quality of the cars is high enough to not bother me at all. Of course, I'll have to see it in person on a TV for me to make a final decision, but from what I understand, the standard cars look just fine. I hope they are as good as the premiums in terms of physics and how they react with weather and dirt. Has this been gone over already? Maybe I missed it...

Yes many times.

I would like it if PD had premium car DLC in the future, and wouln't even mind standard car DLC.

Also gone over many times.

The sheer number of cars in the game is frankly
mind-boggling, and I haven't goten my head around it yet. I'll really need to give myself a good 30 minutes to scroll through and check out a good portion of the cars to really appreciate the quantity of them. I'm excited to drive most, if not all, of the standards as well as the premuims.

The good news is that indeed there are a ton of cars, the bad news is the vast majority of them we have all seen/used before in previous GT games. That doesn't stop them from being fun and it's still nice that your daily driver has a good chance of being in the game, however for those of us who have been through a few versions of GT it's not quite the same level of pop.

 

[Traviizter]

The good news is that indeed there are a ton of cars, the bad news is the vast majority of them we have all seen/used before in previous GT games. That doesn't stop them from being fun and it's still nice that your daily driver has a good chance of being in the game, however for those of us who have been through a few versions of GT it's not quite the same level of pop.

Agreed. 👍👍

I was praying to God that they had the Fiat 500 '08-'10, then I saw it in the Master Car List, then saw it was Premium and literally drooled Just hope they have all the customising options the real 500 has. Then I would be REALLY impressed.

 

[homerjfong]

The good news is that indeed there are a ton of cars, the bad news is the vast majority of them we have all seen/used before in previous GT games. That doesn't stop them from being fun and it's still nice that your daily driver has a good chance of being in the game, however for those of us who have been through a few versions of GT it's not quite the same level of pop.

lol don't tell me you were expecting 1000 cars that are entirely new to the gt series

 

[Organ-Donor]

The good news is that indeed there are a ton of cars, the bad news is the vast majority of them we have all seen/used before in previous GT games. That doesn't stop them from being fun and it's still nice that your daily driver has a good chance of being in the game, however for those of us who have been through a few versions of GT it's not quite the same level of pop.

Except now we get the most important thing (the actual driving) applied to them through a brand new physics engine that arguably rivals some of the best PC racing sim physics. And seeing alot of previous cars from GT isn't necessarily a bad thing, there are so many cars from past GT's that me and many others will love to see.

 

[MadduckUK]

however for those of us who have been through a few versions of GT it's not quite the same level of pop.

speak for yourself....

 

[Traviizter]

Except now we get the most important thing (the actual driving) applied to them through a brand new physics engine that arguably rivals some of the best PC racing sim physics. And seeing alot of previous cars from GT isn't necessarily a bad thing, there are so many cars from past GT's that me and many others will love to see.

Also true. One car I would love to see again is my famed CR-X del Sol.. Oops, sorry, Off Tawpick. Continyoo.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Eh, I echo Dev's sentiment; it's not the same level of "pop", to see the headline 1000+ figure, but realize 3/4 of that is essentially GT4. Yeah, I have some favourites that are undoubtedly returning as Standards (the '70 Galant GTO MR was a peach on the crappiest tires), but it's a different feeling than previous GT games because so much of that lineup isn't just returning, but returning looking very much like how I remember it nearly six years ago. Even with GT3, I knew it was a smaller total car lineup, but everything was done to a whole new standard. This... this is different.

I'm not one of those anti-Standard people who will never touch them, but I know I'll be trying to play my first playthrough with as much Premium goodness as possible.

Woops... to clarify; I'm excited about the game. My excitement towards the cars, towards the stars of the game, is dimmed a bit because of this. This disappointment can become either larger or smaller once the extent of the lower tier's limitations in the game are known.

 

[Khaddar]

speak for yourself....

Agreed. Some of us who've been playing GT games since '98 are still very much looking forward to driving old favourites in a radically different GT game. Many of those standard cars still appeal to me more than many of the cars I've seen confirmed as premiums.

 

[JDMKING13]

Except now we get the most important thing (the actual driving) applied to them through a brand new physics engine that arguably rivals some of the best PC racing sim physics. And seeing alot of previous cars from GT isn't necessarily a bad thing, there are so many cars from past GT's that me and many others will love to see.

NO doubt, all those cars from the previous GT are going to be fun as heck to drive with the new physics and content GT5 has to offer. I am very excited 👍

 

[Traviizter]

Eh, I echo Dev's sentiment; it's not the same level of "pop", to see the headline 1000+ figure, but realize 3/4 of that is essentially GT4. Yeah, I have some favourites that are undoubtedly returning as Standards (the '70 Galant GTO MR was a peach on the crappiest tires), but it's a different feeling than previous GT games because so much of that lineup isn't just returning, but returning looking very much like how I remember it nearly six years ago. Even with GT3, I knew it was a smaller total car lineup, but everything was done to a whole new standard. This... this is different.

I'm not one of those anti-Standard people who will never touch them, but I know I'll be trying to play my first playthrough with as much Premium goodness as possible.

Also, knowing that 3/4 is from GT4 kind of ruins the surprise element of flicking through the dealership when you first play the game, seeing what's new, or if your favourite car is in the game. Although.. the whole point in GT5, I think, was to not just elevate the cars, but the physics and overall gameplay. Of course, we would all love to see our real-life cars, or our dream cars in the game, but lets be realistic; it probably won't happen. Which brings us back to the same old, same old. Same cars (mostly), but different physics. Hmm..

EDIT: I do think however, that it should be a right laugh with the new physics.. getting ready to buy my Daihatsu Midget Type-II and Subaru 360!

 

[Devedander]

Except now we get the most important thing (the actual driving) applied to them through a brand new physics engine that arguably rivals some of the best PC racing sim physics. And seeing alot of previous cars from GT isn't necessarily a bad thing, there are so many cars from past GT's that me and many others will love to see.

That's pretty much what I said in the non bold part right after the part you bolded...

speak for yourself....

So you are telling me that 800 cars you have driven already in other GT games wouldn't be showed up by 800 cars never before in a GT game? I dunno if I can believe that...