Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Tenacious D]

In fact, you just did here as well. You point out Forza's flaws in such a negative manner & then say, "These are the only things wrong with GT". I can tell by the way you typed both paragraphs that you don't think much of GT's flaws & act like they're nothing, but T10 needs to be crucified.

But you admit you're a fanboy numerously, so there's no point in me or anyone else pointing out that bias since you're just going to do it anyways.

Dude!

Okay, let's do a little quiz here.

1. Tell me something you can do in GT4 or Prologue to cause the game to crash, to mess up the graphics of the cars - permanently no less, or get you banned from online.

2. Tell me what non-performance upgrade in GT4 or Prologue other than weight reduction causes your car to become uncatchable versus another of the same make.

Oh, and by the way...

"These are the only things wrong with GT"

I want it noted for the record that you misquoted me.

There are lots of things that one can say are wrong about the Gran Turismos. Incorrect performance values or weights for instance, though I've noticed others have pointed out that usually this can be faulted to PD using specs from Japan editions of cars. And these are usually niggly diffrerences. You can certainly say that about the whole Standard car issue, though even you point out it could be way overblown. There's the matter of most cars suffering from understeer versus Forza's overbearing oversteer, although both of those aren't any better than the other. I will have to say that most of us can handle understeer more easily though. You have to really fight in GT4 to spin out, another example, or rally tire on gravel modeling being off. Some are gameplay irritants such as bot A.I. which mostly ignores you, or rabbit cars you have to restart races to get rid of.

Other "wrongs" are pure opinions though. Ten million Skylines for instance, or the tire squeals in GT4. A car list that doesn't resemble Forza's, with too many daily drivers, that's too Japanese.

But when you hear criticism of Gran Turismo, it's usually a small list like mine with a few variations that get kicked around. And frankly, I haven't come across a game yet that hasn't been criticized. GTR had to have the tire models fixed with a user mod, for pete's sake.

 

[McLaren]

Dude!

Okay, let's do a little quiz here.

Points for trying to go towards another topic.

My point still stands. You're a fanboy, & most of your arguments lose all credibility, esp. you go around admitting so. No one takes a fanboy's dribble as serious discussion since it's always biased.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Points for trying to go towards another topic.

My point still stands. You're a fanboy, & most of your arguments lose all credibility, esp. you go around admitting so. No one takes a fanboy's dribble as serious discussion since it's always biased.

Pot and kettle spring to mind here.

Your always defending FM3 like some fanboy and what makes me laugh is your the only one doing so. Most of the hardcore community have abandoned FM3. You might ask what has FM3 got to do with this and my answer is don't accuse members of being fanboys when you act like one yourself.

Real fans of Forza have the same opinion as me and that is its a disaster of a game. The way you continually defend FM3 suggests you don't know much about the Forza franchise and obviously haven't witnessed how the franchise has taken a backwards step with each sequel.

I will add that today for the first time I actually witnessed a 3D presentation on a Sony 3DTV. All I will say is its a mind blowing experience and after seeing this I really couldnt' give a monkeys about standard or premium. All I will say is R.I.P to the Xbox 360 because nothing can compete against 3D gaming.

 

[Tenacious D]

Points for trying to go towards another topic.

My point still stands. You're a fanboy, & most of your arguments lose all credibility, esp. you go around admitting so. No one takes a fanboy's dribble as serious discussion since it's always biased.

Okay, bye, and thanks for twisting my remarks, which I guess makes you all kinds of credible in your own eyes.

I think the one good thing which has come of this spatty but fairly well managed thread is that even Dravonic has simmered down a bit, and has left it at a "wait and see" attitude towards the Standard car fiasco. But what else can we do when this matter has such conflicting information swirling around it? Whether PD pulls a fast one and the Standards all look darn close to Prologue quality, maybe even with cockpits, or else they'll look like HD versions of GT4, almost all of us will be buying GT5 from day one, and we can love or ignore those 800 cars as we see fit.

One more thing:

I will add that today for the first time I actually witnessed a 3D presentation on a Sony 3DTV. All I will say is its a mind blowing experience and after seeing this I really couldnt' give a monkeys about standard or premium. All I will say is R.I.P to the Xbox 360 because nothing can compete against 3D gaming.

The thing that makes me groan about this is that I just bought a $2000 LG LED TV - man, and I wish it had been another Bravia. Idiot thing needs to be calibrated to look really good. If the ISR guys - well, or everyone is right, and GT5 in 3D really is the stuff dreams are made of, I'm going to be so sadface.

 

[McLaren]

Pot and kettle spring to mind here.

Your always defending FM3 like some fanboy and what makes me laugh is your the only one doing so. Most of the hardcore community have abandoned FM3. You might ask what has FM3 got to do with this and my answer is don't accuse members of being fanboys when you act like one yourself.

I'm not a fanboy, though. Plain & simple. I merely respond to the stupidity you both spew out your mouths, always over exaggerating Forza's flaws, asking for Dan's head on a platter.
I know of Forza's flaws. I've noted them before. But, I'm not going to pull a Ten. D. & mention them every time someone says, "Forza's not bad". You're right behind him when the physics are brought up as well.

You can ask Camaroboy, I've been called a GT fanboy at FC & repeatedly ask why I am even a mod there if I support GT. I know for a fact, Ten. has been a witness to some of the FM fanboys who don't like me pointing out how silly it is to complain about 2D trees or that GT has numerous Skylines.

I like both games & don't prefer any over the other. If you think otherwise, it's because you haven't seen the people I've debated with at FC or FM's cream of the crop.

And considering you're the person who tried to inject stereotypes in a debate, you can do what I said before & go away. I'm not defending T10 because they're American or hating PD because they're Japanese, who do everything better according to you. Resulting to that tactic is a cheap shot at a nationality.

Real fans of Forza have the same opinion as me and that is its a disaster of a game. The way you continually defend FM3 suggests you don't know much about the Forza franchise and obviously haven't witnessed how the franchise has taken a backwards step with each sequel.

Ok, so the only people who are real fans of Forza are the ones who constantly note how the game has gone backwards. Doesn't sound like a fan to me, terrific logic there.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Ok, so the only people who are real fans of Forza are the ones who constantly note how the game has gone backwards. Doesn't sound like a fan to me, terrific logic there. :doh:

Actually it makes perfect sense. Those who loved FM1/FM2 i.e Forza fanbase are the ones who have been most vocal at how disappointing FM3 is. The reason being is because they know how Forza has gone backwards. Those who didn't play FM1/2 don't know any different and are less vocal. Makes perfect sense to me. Think about it for a couple of mins and it may sink in!!

 

[Devedander]

What do you guy think? Probably wont change my mind unless PD confirms they just ported everything over and the GT5 engine magically did the rest.

I would want to know specifically what changes they made and see the process to believe anything significant happened between GT4 models and GT5 standards. Any changes to the 3d framework would have had to be miniscule to the point of not being worth it based on what I see here.

1. Without more angles to see it from, I could not make any such call. As is it looks very much the same just rendered on more powerful hardware with a better lighting engine.

2. What I see is an area of blown out lighting there where the area between the front of the vent and the top of the headlight seems to blend in with the front lip of the vent making it look like the front lip extends all the way to the headlight when in reality most of what you see is fender/hood.

3. Again need more angles to say for sure but it appears the GT5 shot is from farther back on the car which would obsucure more of the black surround than a view from slightly ahead. Also when you render in higher resolution often parts of a 3D model can seem to fit slightyl differently.

4. I don't know which one of us needs glasses, but it doesn't take a genius to see that this is inherently better looking than the GT4 snapshot. It actually looks curved as opposed to the GT4 shot. In fact the GT4 shot they actually have some sort of bleeding to make the corner appear softer.

5. I actually see the exactly same edges on the curve that I see on the GT4 model... the rendering is better qualtiy thus none of the "bleeding" you see (which I think is just some kind of blur in the GT4 shot) so no, it doesn't look noteably different.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

The thing that makes me groan about this is that I just bought a $2000 LG LED TV - man, and I wish it had been another Bravia. Idiot thing needs to be calibrated to look really good.

I must admit im kicking myself after buying my HDTV 18months ago and wish I had waited. I really cannot express how amazed I was. I was standing 6ft from the TV and yet it seemed as though I had literally climbed inside the TV.

Also worth mentioning the footage was more impressive on the Sony TV compared to the Samsung. Definitely going to save up for a 3DTV.

 

[VXR]

Is that second Corvette shot actually from GT5?

if so, that's going to ruin the suspension of disbelief when next to premium models as that's roughly comparable to FM2 for textures.

 

[Dravonic]

I would want to know specifically what changes they made and see the process to believe anything significant happened between GT4 models and GT5 standards. Any changes to the 3d framework would have had to be miniscule to the point of not being worth it based on what I see here.

1. Without more angles to see it from, I could not make any such call. As is it looks very much the same just rendered on more powerful hardware with a better lighting engine.

2. What I see is an area of blown out lighting there where the area between the front of the vent and the top of the headlight seems to blend in with the front lip of the vent making it look like the front lip extends all the way to the headlight when in reality most of what you see is fender/hood.

3. Again need more angles to say for sure but it appears the GT5 shot is from farther back on the car which would obsucure more of the black surround than a view from slightly ahead. Also when you render in higher resolution often parts of a 3D model can seem to fit slightyl differently.

4. I don't know which one of us needs glasses, but it doesn't take a genius to see that this is inherently better looking than the GT4 snapshot. It actually looks curved as opposed to the GT4 shot. In fact the GT4 shot they actually have some sort of bleeding to make the corner appear softer.

5. I actually see the exactly same edges on the curve that I see on the GT4 model... the rendering is better qualtiy thus none of the "bleeding" you see (which I think is just some kind of blur in the GT4 shot) so no, it doesn't look noteably different.

His 1. argument is wrong. They are modeled in both cars. Took me 3 minutes to look it up in GT4.

As for the rest, your opening statement says it all. Even if they were improvements, PD just wasted their time since these small details change nearly nothing. Of course, I doubt PD wasted their time. These are the same models. Any impression of added smoothness in the GT5 shot can easily be attributed to it being considerably blurrier.

 

[McLaren]

Actually it makes perfect sense. Those who loved FM1/FM2 i.e Forza fanbase are the ones who have been most vocal at how disappointing FM3 is. The reason being is because they know how Forza has gone backwards. Those who didn't play FM1/2 don't know any different and are less vocal. Makes perfect sense to me. Think about it for a couple of mins and it may sink in!!

That's why a lot of these people are still playing right? Still throwing up tunes & top times?

I've played FM1 through 3, 1 being the only I never actually bought. I know very well where most are coming from. But there's a few you claim are the real fans who do a lot of over exaggerating, who feel as if someone snatched their most valuable asset away from them. I don't deny online is bad, that's why I rarely play it except for the non-racing events. I don't play to set the fastest times, so the AWD-domination doesn't irk me though it's a flaw. But, the game still plays fine as a whole & when someone says they still like it, I'm not going to say, "No, no! This is bad, this is bad, this is bad" like some others. I've also seen how T10 react to negativity, so I don't bother telling them b/c they really don't seem to care.

Thus, I only use the game as a stress relief now. That's it. I'm still very aware of the flaws & know when someone's goal is to do nothing but shoot down T10. But I don't take the game seriously anymore & enjoy it for what it is. The amount I still play it would make me a real fan, because I still buy all the worthless car packs they push to play with 1 car. I'd do the same with GT5, but it gets old quick due to the smaller amount of content in comparison.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Maybe you have a cruddy monitor. Most PC games have pretty poor graphics... let me rephrase this a bit to be more clear.

MOST PC GAMES HAVE PRETTY POOR GRAPHICS! By this I mean they have poor lighting, shadowing and textures. Even the colors look washed out. While GT4 on the lowly PS2 often looks like Speed Channel video, most PC games look like CG unrealities. They aren't pretty in any way, shape or form. They have 2D trees. Garages that look as bad as the poor models joked about from other games. I hope this is clear to you now: MOST PC games. I've only seen videos of iRacing because I'm not rich enough to rent a game to the tune of way more than $100 a year, and pricey DLC on top of that.

First, my monitor's fine. Though for fun I've played a few iRacing videos on a 55" LED and guess what? It fools a lot of people. And that's even with the lousy compression of youtube. I'd love a copy of whatever secret version of GT4 you got, because mine looks exactly like what it is on that same screen; a last-generation game. Still great for a PS2 (like MGS3), but in no way comparable to anything from this generation. Which was actually brought up 50 pages ago with pictures from NFS. Their models are up to a standard past GT5's lower-tier models.

If you want to pay for my subscription to iRacing, by all means! I'll PM you my Paypal account and I'll jump right in! But I'll warn you that I want all the content too.

Well I suppose at least your cost argument works in GT's favour, since the price per year of GT5 will be low... since it's taken nearly six years since GT4. Though since we're bringing up the price thing; a computer does more for me than a PS3 ever can. I need it for work, and needed it for school. iRacing might cost a lot, but buying a PS3, and GT5 costs more. And while a PS3 can do more than just play that game... it still doesn't compare. Mind you, this is for me personally, and obviously different people have different needs. But that's another discussion anyways; not for this thread.

LFS felt more real to me anyhow, but they messed up the tire models in their attempt to find the magic formula. Still very good, but having tires quickly turn to butter when you exceed the tire life is a bit grouch inducing.

Hmmm, what other game has this exact problem...

It felt cold, sterile and uninvolving. It got old quickly, so I went back to Prologue and GT4. The sun came out, birds sang, and peace and harmony ruled.

Meh, fanboys tend to feel that way when they outside of their preferred realm (and then back). I still prefer GT over other racing series, but GT4 feels exactly like that first sentence of your's. The most fun I have is either in licenses, or driving challenges. The rest of the game felt like a chore, and I can't remember any real highlights while knocking out GT Mode other than the M Race on the 'Ring. Meanwhile I still remember each race in GT1 being fun. And GT2, to a lesser extent. GT4 was about getting what cars I wanted as fast as possible, and finding out how to actually make them enjoyable to drive with the lousy physics.

Works for me.

Which is funny since you write off fanboy opinions when they happen to hold allegiance for any other series. See my zealot comment?

And this is the thing. We only have a rough idea of what we're getting with those Standard cars. Journalists and interviewers have been quite impressed. Sean Cole says they're about as good as Prologue models in quality. A couple of sources, besides OPM, have said that Standard cars would have cockpits. A couple of video interviews have indicated that all the assets in GT5 would be brought up to the same level of quality. And don't forget, this could include Standard tracks.

It's amazing how a journalist with a negative comment about the game gets ignored, since they obviously don't know enough about the game, but when someone says Standards are as good as Prologue, it's taken as fact. I trust my eyes more than some journalist, since they've proven time and time again they get the facts wrong, not just with GT, but with other games.

Have any of us seen the finished product? No, and there are two months or so more work going into it.

It's taken them 5 years to give us GT5's new engine, features, and 200 cars. How much do you think they can really do in 2 months? Model another couple sets of wheels? PD isn't known in the industry as a fast-moving company. It has it's advantages, of course, but it also has its drawbacks.

In one sense, all this caterwauling and complaining can serve to drive (pun pardon ) the Master and his team to improve the content. Oh, did I say Master? I'm going to continue to use that title, because I see nothing comparable to Gran Turismo. Maybe the ridiculously expensive iRacing is, but I have my Paypal PM handy if you want to fund a few years worth of it. I'm sure not going to spend that kind of money, because I sincerely doubt it's hundreds of dollars better than Gran Turismo. And I just can't see it as being as slick, cool and involving. I've already tried - bought and spent time with - other games, and they leave me wanting.

Other than this weird suggestion that somehow I[/b] be the one to fund iRacing, I've never said that it's better, overall, than GT (though does this mean people who aren't bowing down at GT5 should be expecting you to buy it for them?). Hell, find where I've said that about any other game. GT covers a lot of bases well; though other than the realistically-modelled-exhaust-screw-and-dandelions category, and sheer car number category (due to the worst padding in the industry), it doesn't do anything best. Jack of all trades, master of none, etc etc. It still covers a lot of what I desire in a racing game (street cars, variety, realism in the physics and graphics sense), but it's not offering the dominance it had during GT1. Their focus is increasingly about providing great soundbites and bragging numbers for the advertisers. 1000 Cars (4/5th reheated from last-gen)! 6 months to create a single car (renderer's wetdream instead of reasonable goals to allow the same level of quality throughout the game)! PS4 levels of detail (aren't you happy we modelled each individual stitch on the backseat? Enjoy some more last-gen cars)!

Hmm... I don't agree with this at all. Even if you're limiting yourself to car classes, any Forza fan will acknowledge that the car list is thick with exotics, supercars and race cars, and DLC the same. Even if you want to joke about 10,000,000 Skylines, WRXs and Evos, Gran Turismo is the only game I can race the MR2 Mk I, 240 SX hatchback and Sileighty. Some prefer the Forza model. I prefer Gran Turismo.

And Forza is the only game I can race a new-gen Taurus SHO, or Fusion. Or whatever unique cars I want to list, just as you did. Odd that most of the new metal we've seen for GT5 has been exotics, supercars, or race cars...

Okay, I'm anxious to be racing in GT5 in a few hopefully short months, Standard cars - possibly tracks and all. But even a graphics addict like me wants to race Standards and Premiums together. And snap Photo Mode pics.

A self-professed graphics addict still doesn't acknowledge that Standards are without a doubt not up to par with the competition this generation? I wonder why that is.

Again your talking about graphics, your looking at 1 piece of the picture. I am looking at the whole picture. I'm not going to call the standard cars the same as a GT4 cars. Yes it is based off of them, but they are improved from every aspect according to the information we have now making them different to the GT4 cars.

Nobody's said they'll look the same when playing GT5. Thanks to its better lighting and reflections. But careful analysis shows recycled car models. They look like the higher-quality ones seen in GT4's Photomode (the still setting one, not the replays), but they're still GT4 models. I've spent countless, countless hours in Photomode for my gallery. It's a very easy spot for someone used to it.

Plus there's the easy thing of just watching a replay from GT4 with the same cars as the video. It looks really damn familar.

Was it ever confirmed how much better the models were that were captured vs used for GT4?

I have always wondered whether they were vastly superior or whether they were just a bit better or whether the comment they were too much for the PS2 referred only to in race so they were actaully used as photomode models.

As far as I know, we've never had solid confirmation one way or the other. The models in Photomode were better than replays, but I'm not sure about some higher level being stored for later use. My only reason to question it is that the models we're seeing in the Standard video don't look much better than GT4's. They certainly seem to have the same makeup.

It's true that there are two things to be talked about but I don't think the problem is that I don't see the big picture, rather that the big picture is being brought up as a way to refute the basic fact.

Basically this is how I see it played out:

"Models from GT5 standard cars are just GT4 models!"

reply:

"Standard cars in GT5 don't look that bad, they are actually pretty decent looking and in motion probably not much worse than the competition... and there are WAY MORE of them."

The reply is being used to refute the whole "GT4 models" thing, and is just not appropriate.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

The originals are higher quality than what you see on the PS2 in GT4.



Is that fact? Is there proof that is the case? Or are you just saying it cause the PHOTOMODE cars look better than in-game cars?
I'm honestly curious.

I don't think we'll ever get clarification on a six year old game at this point. Though my point above does make sense...

Points for trying to go towards another topic.

My point still stands. You're a fanboy, & most of your arguments lose all credibility, esp. you go around admitting so. No one takes a fanboy's dribble as serious discussion since it's always biased.

+1.

I'm open to the (however unlikely) chance Standards will be improved upon before release. I doubt it, but hey, it's possible. But seeing as how the man in charge is more concerned with individual bolts and stitches and track-side dandelions than having all the cars at a uniform level of detail (not just for the graphics sake of it, but for the gameplay), I'm not holding my breath.

I'm sure there are people who still will state that Standards, as far as we have seen of them, are somehow to the level of detail and fidelity of other games from this generation. Since it's technically an opinion, they can't be wrong... but I'd love to know the criteria for the judgement. "It's Gran Turismo!" seems to be the only one used.

 

[Tornado]

The person I originally read it from was Toronado & looking further into it, it seemed they well detailed.

I going by what I recall from an old Game Informer from early 2004, which normally isn't enough for me to post something but Famine mentioned the same thing.


I also was looking through the GTPlanet news archives and I saw this:

830 kinds of standard model

🤬

Someone please tell me that number has changed since then.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Actually it makes perfect sense. Those who loved FM1/FM2 i.e Forza fanbase are the ones who have been most vocal at how disappointing FM3 is. The reason being is because they know how Forza has gone backwards. Those who didn't play FM1/2 don't know any different and are less vocal. Makes perfect sense to me. Think about it for a couple of mins and it may sink in!!

...just like those of us who've been playing since GT1 and wonder why the plot was lost...?

I also was looking through the GTPlanet news archives and I saw this:

🤬

Remember all the theories surrounding Standards and how it probably just meant a lower level of damage? That the Gallardo getting just scratches instead of full-on deformation might be what they mean?

 

[Tornado]

Remember all the theories surrounding Standards and how it probably just meant a lower level of damage? That the Gallardo getting just scratches instead of full-on deformation might be what they mean?

That's not the cause of the RAEG. The specific number mentioned for standard cars is.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

You mean the PSP-mirroring number?

We've just got "800+" so far. Which isn't any more encouraging, really. Would sir like 3x as many S2000's?

Nevermind, I know your favourite: here's a GS300... with a turbo!

 

[Tenacious D]

Hmmm, what other game has this exact problem (melty tires)...

You mean, the engine revving and the car not moving when I give it gas, causing me to think that the tranny is shot?

Whatever game you're thinking of, it's not any of the Gran Turismos. In fact, I don't think any game has tire degradation like that.

Meh, fanboys tend to feel that way when they outside of their preferred realm (and then back). I still prefer GT over other racing series, but GT4 feels exactly like that first sentence of your's. The most fun I have is either in licenses, or driving challenges. The rest of the game felt like a chore, and I can't remember any real highlights while knocking out GT Mode other than the M Race on the 'Ring. Meanwhile I still remember each race in GT1 being fun. And GT2, to a lesser extent. GT4 was about getting what cars I wanted as fast as possible, and finding out how to actually make them enjoyable to drive with the lousy physics.

I'm not sure what to make of this. Unless you had a modded PS1 playing a Japanese copy of GT1, you probably experienced the worst physics in a realistic racing game. SONY made Polyphony juice up the performance of the cars and reduce the gravity, because they didn't think we in the west would enjoy a strictly realistic racing game. When gaming journalists found out and made this fact known, the net erupted in outrage and tens of thousands of fans demanded the sequel be left unfussed. I thought GT1 was a little odd, but then I hadn't encountered a serious racing game based largely around street cars, and daily drivers at that.

Yes, GT2 was a huge improvement, though strangely a little uglier. However, I pounced on Bleemcast when it came out so the graphics improved considerably for me. Still, I can't fathom why you found those early games to have better physics - and I'm inferring here, so don't jump on me. Even as improved as GT3 was over the PS1 games, front wheel drive cars handled much like RWD, mid-engined cars like front engined, and there were other issues I can't recall. In GT4, cars had the kind of mass I expected cars to. Though they bogged in turns, real cars don't fly around turns either, not without some pretty serious rubber and suspensions. After experiencing it, I found GT4 to be about right. Obviously, Prologue and the TT demo were marked improvements. But I have a feeling if you go back to GT 2 and enjoy the heck out of it as you scream unrealistically fast around Laguna Seca, it's because you're screaming unrealistically fast.

Which is funny since you write off fanboy opinions when they happen to hold allegiance for any other series. See my zealot comment?

Yes, and...?

It's amazing how a journalist with a negative comment about the game gets ignored, since they obviously don't know enough about the game, but when someone says Standards are as good as Prologue, it's taken as fact. I trust my eyes more than some journalist, since they've proven time and time again they get the facts wrong, not just with GT, but with other games.

Well, this is the net after all, but I wasn't stating it as fact. If you caught any of my other posts on this, I mentioned it as a contrasting opinion to those who spoke as factually on the matter as if they had the game, and were above question. You know, Sean Cole saw stuff at E3 in person. He made the call. Is he right? I don't know, I wasn't there.

Were you?

It's taken them 5 years to give us GT5's new engine, features, and 200 cars. How much do you think they can really do in 2 months? Model another couple sets of wheels?

Well, I'm not one of those who insist that PD can "remodel" 800 cars into Prologue quality. I guess I should be clear that

• I'll be perfectly content with the polygon models of the Standard cars, and Standard tracks as well if we get them.
• The improvements I'm discussing are the skins and textures, and it doesn't take six man-months to skin a car in GT5, to my knowledge.

Other than this weird suggestion that somehow I[/b] be the one to fund iRacing, I've never said that it's better, overall, than GT

I'll keep this in mind down the road.

GT covers a lot of bases well; though other than the realistically-modelled-exhaust-screw-and-dandelions category, and sheer car number category (due to the worst padding in the industry), it doesn't do anything best. Jack of all trades, master of none, etc etc. It still covers a lot of what I desire in a racing game (street cars, variety, realism in the physics and graphics sense), but it's not offering the dominance it had during GT1. Their focus is increasingly about providing great soundbites and bragging numbers for the advertisers. 1000 Cars (4/5th reheated from last-gen)! 6 months to create a single car (renderer's wetdream instead of reasonable goals to allow the same level of quality throughout the game)! PS4 levels of detail (aren't you happy we modelled each individual stitch on the backseat? Enjoy some more last-gen cars)!

Uhm... sure, whatever.

And Forza is the only game I can race a new-gen Taurus SHO, or Fusion. Or whatever unique cars I want to list, just as you did. Odd that most of the new metal we've seen for GT5 has been exotics, supercars, or race cars...

First, any car you can name in Forza, I can see you and raise you three, because even if you take away all the Skylines, WRXs and Evos in GT4, the vehicle list is still over 600 cars. With Forza, you do have Porsches, but GT does have RUF.

Second, you know full well that Kaz saying how many mid-20th Century Suzukis are in GT5 is going to have the entire planet screaming for mention of the "serious" high performance cars. So, please.

A self-professed graphics addict still doesn't acknowledge that Standards are without a doubt not up to par with the competition this generation? I wonder why that is.

Maybe because I mentioned that I find the Standard cars to be quite handsome, even if you can't necessarily read the imprinting on the headlights? Just a thought.

I'm open to the (however unlikely) chance Standards will be improved upon before release. I doubt it, but hey, it's possible. But seeing as how the man in charge is more concerned with individual bolts and stitches and track-side dandelions than having all the cars at a uniform level of detail (not just for the graphics sake of it, but for the gameplay), I'm not holding my breath.

I'm sure there are people who still will state that Standards, as far as we have seen of them, are somehow to the level of detail and fidelity of other games from this generation. Since it's technically an opinion, they can't be wrong... but I'd love to know the criteria for the judgement. "It's Gran Turismo!" seems to be the only one used.

I do believe that I have used other words. I refer my friend to remarks I made some moments ago (UK Parliament reference).

 

[Luminis]

You know, if you take a step back from this whole discussion and just watch it a little from 'the outsite', so to speak, there's one thing I noticed.

People are constantly comparing the standard cars to their GT4 counterparts and some other guys keep on defending them; people are debating about whether they have been improved since GT4 at all (aside from the lighting GT5's engine provides, of course).

If you think about it, the fact that that even creates such a debate should be more than a subtle hint that whatever PD did to polish the standard cars wasn't enough...

 

[Tenacious D]

Maybe. But then, other than redo all the cars with Prologue-like polygon count, I'm sure hundreds of thousands if not millions of people would be dissatisfied, regardless. Then the question remains, does it matter? I'm thinking other than some board arguing, it won't make much difference, and people are going to glom onto the game because of all the incredible things it offers. And who knows, there may be some goodies that make the Standard cars appealing to all but the most grouchy holdouts.

As with all things GT, we'll see.

 

[Dravonic]

Maybe. But then, other than redo all the cars with Prologue-like polygon count, I'm sure hundreds of thousands if not millions of people would be dissatisfied, regardless. Then the question remains, does it matter? I'm thinking other than some board arguing, it won't make much difference, and people are going to glom onto the game because of all the incredible things it offers. And who knows, there may be some goodies that make the Standard cars appealing to all but the most grouchy holdouts.

As with all things GT, we'll see.

Yes it matter. It may not to you, but you have no idea how much it does to me.

Still, you have a point. I'm definitely going to enjoy this game like I never did any other racing game to this day. Hell, I still am amazed at how much fun I have playing prologue. I don't think I'll ever be able to stay a single day without playing GT5.

It will be the very nectar of gods, of that I'm sure. But it will come with a bitter end taste. The bitter taste of what it could have been. I don't think I'll ever look at a standard car without a frown.

 

[Vogar]

Tenacious D you are one of the few people that actually makes any sense at all. I guess I should go as far as saying you make complete sense since I know when it comes to products no one owes anyone anything. You are simply presented with a product and you choose whether or not to purchase it. I personally like the amount of cars that will be included in the game no matter what the level of quality that these vehicles receive since I like to race against many different types of cars. I guess I really can't be disappointed with this game as long as the game completion percentage goes all the way to 100% and there are a few hidden surprises!

 

[Tenacious D]

Thanks. Just trying to do my part as a loyal GT fanboy. But with some lucid perspective.

I know my posts are often long winded essays, but I try to say all I can about the subject. I love cars, and therefore I love GT, and love to yack about it. I'm sure some would say that I love to hear myself type, but then, I do have a story with a chapter 100 pages long, and counting...

This has sure been a touchy subject, which brings me to this.

Yes it matter. It may not to you, but you have no idea how much it does to me.

Oh, believe me, I understand. It was a gut wrenching "what the hell??" moment for me too when I found out the gritty truth. I know it was mentioned previously, and we argued, and most of us shot down the idea of GT4 car models in GT5, but then you learn, and you feel a void open up in your tummy. I thought uneasily about how the net was going to blow up real big over the news, and if that might hurt the game. I saw the videos and images, and my mood brightened a lot. But I saw polygons on edges, and had a feeling some people wouldn't see things as optimistically as me.

Wowzers, was I right.

We're still fighting over this, because Prologue was such a HUGE jump, and thinking of 1000 cars with those graphics, along with the possibility of race mod and a livery shop made many of us giddy. And you don't take a treat away from fans like this without some kind of backlash.

I was here last year when some of the folk were getting mad simply because Kaz wasn't giving out any info, not even a screengrab. There were angry posts and heated arguments. I was one of the guys here trying to spread reason and peaceful words with the rabble rowsers, and it wasn't easy. And this is clearly worse.

I do think these two "Standard car" threads should be left free for people to grouch as much as they want. I know us Standard car pushers get on your nerves, and maybe we should let the ranting continue just so you can let off steam. I know that if we don't get cockpits or even black window frames, a rather prized driving view is going to be yanked away from you guys as well. I know that has to hurt. I guess Like McLaren, we want everyone to be as happy about our beloved series as we are. So, don't mind us ditzy optimists if we get all happy go lucky and throw flowers everywhere, we're just inebriated as SlipZtrEm says.

 

[eSZee]

That's why a lot of these people are still playing right? Still throwing up tunes & top times?

That rarely has anything to do with how good a game is. People simply put up the best times to be noticed on the leaderboards.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

You mean, the engine revving and the car not moving when I give it gas, causing me to think that the tranny is shot?

Whatever game you're thinking of, it's not any of the Gran Turismos. In fact, I don't think any game has tire degradation like that.

Ah. That. I just understood it as "broken tire model", which is just as applicable to GT, though not race-ending. Their tire model is garbage.

As for what you're describing, happened to me a lot in F12k2 mods. Yes, annoying.

I'm not sure what to make of this. Unless you had a modded PS1 playing a Japanese copy of GT1, you probably experienced the worst physics in a realistic racing game. SONY made Polyphony juice up the performance of the cars and reduce the gravity, because they didn't think we in the west would enjoy a strictly realistic racing game. When gaming journalists found out and made this fact known, the net erupted in outrage and tens of thousands of fans demanded the sequel be left unfussed. I thought GT1 was a little odd, but then I hadn't encountered a serious racing game based largely around street cars, and daily drivers at that.

Yes, GT2 was a huge improvement, though strangely a little uglier. However, I pounced on Bleemcast when it came out so the graphics improved considerably for me. Still, I can't fathom why you found those early games to have better physics - and I'm inferring here, so don't jump on me. Even as improved as GT3 was over the PS1 games, front wheel drive cars handled much like RWD, mid-engined cars like front engined, and there were other issues I can't recall. In GT4, cars had the kind of mass I expected cars to. Though they bogged in turns, real cars don't fly around turns either, not without some pretty serious rubber and suspensions. After experiencing it, I found GT4 to be about right. Obviously, Prologue and the TT demo were marked improvements. But I have a feeling if you go back to GT 2 and enjoy the heck out of it as you scream unrealistically fast around Laguna Seca, it's because you're screaming unrealistically fast.

Hm, I guess I wasn't clear; I don't consider the old games superior to the new ones physics-wise. Definitely not. But at the time they stood above the competition much more decisively than the series does now. Back then the only game really satisfying enthusiasts was GPL. That's all I meant.

Though the physics for FF cars, while sometimes too much like rear-drivers, at least was better than the utter neutering they've had on PS2. The ITR being the best example of all that is wrong with PD's front-drive physics .

Yes, and...?

Just checking. Wondering how this sort of blind following is acceptable here.

Well, this is the net after all, but I wasn't stating it as fact. If you caught any of my other posts on this, I mentioned it as a contrasting opinion to those who spoke as factually on the matter as if they had the game, and were above question. You know, Sean Cole saw stuff at E3 in person. He made the call. Is he right? I don't know, I wasn't there.

Were you?

Did he see some extra secret presentation about Standards? Or the same one as us? Since there's no mention of a different video, I don't need to be there; I watched the same thing, then.

Well, I'm not one of those who insist that PD can "remodel" 800 cars into Prologue quality. I guess I should be clear that

• I'll be perfectly content with the polygon models of the Standard cars, and Standard tracks as well if we get them.
• The improvements I'm discussing are the skins and textures, and it doesn't take six man-months to skin a car in GT5, to my knowledge.

Sorry; maybe you haven't said it. But look through the thread and you'll see it's not an isolated thing; there are actually numerous people who think it's possible. There are less than 100 days left to do work on the game...

How many people do they have capable of doing the textures? An upsizing of the current ones won't solve an issue, things have to be redrawn. Mind you, the street cars are fairly straight-forward, it's the race cars that will take time.

I'll keep this in mind down the road.

You'll note I've actually never said any game was, overall, than GT. Odd, huh.

Uhm... sure, whatever.

Another case of valid points... ignored!

First, any car you can name in Forza, I can see you and raise you three, because even if you take away all the Skylines, WRXs and Evos in GT4, the vehicle list is still over 600 cars. With Forza, you do have Porsches, but GT does have RUF.

Quality (of car choices) over quantity...

Second, you know full well that Kaz saying how many mid-20th Century Suzukis are in GT5 is going to have the entire planet screaming for mention of the "serious" high performance cars. So, please.

The people want what the people want. Criticize Forza's amount of supercars and various exotica all you want; there's a reason PD has added more of them.

Maybe because I mentioned that I find the Standard cars to be quite handsome, even if you can't necessarily read the imprinting on the headlights? Just a thought.

This is actually admittance then that they aren't up to the same standards as nearly every other racing game on the current-gen consoles then? See, that wasn't so hard!

...

I just wish some other company would've brought forth their newest game with the majority of the car models being carry overs from the previous generation. It'd be curious to see what the general consensus would be here, if it would be mostly positive about being graced with additional content. Mind you, no other racing franchise is bringing their first current-gen installment out this many years after the systems debuted...

Roll on, November 2.

 

[McLaren]

That rarely has anything to do with how good a game is. People simply put up the best times to be noticed on the leaderboards.

According to the "real" fans, the only people who could notice the driving aid were the hot lappers & the people who pushed the physics to set the top times. And yet, despite finding these flaws in the physics & how it makes the game worse, they still seem to be on FM.net comparing top times.

 

[Tenacious D]

Just checking. Wondering how this sort of blind following is acceptable here.

I think you'll find people with their eyes squeezed shut much more than I'm even accused of. Even McLaren has to twist my quotes to get me to say things I hadn't.

Did he see some extra secret presentation about Standards? Or the same one as us?

I don't know. I don't know why sources other than OPM were adamant that Standard cars would be of great detail and include cockpits. You'll have to ask them.

How many people do they have capable of doing the textures? An upsizing of the current ones won't solve an issue, things have to be redrawn. Mind you, the street cars are fairly straight-forward, it's the race cars that will take time.

True, but then I forgot to mention that we don't know what the original skin art resolution is. Maybe nothing nedes to be reskinned but the Standard tracks we might be getting. There's no telling. Kaz is keeping a lot of cards close to his chest, but then he does have two more conventions he wants to keep interesting with fresh news.

You'll note I've actually never said any game was, overall, than GT. Odd, huh.

I suppose, but then you may be a better human than I.

Another case of valid points... ignored!

I think the main problem is that you can't understand how easy it is to accept shortcomings in GT5, when the ones in Forza cause me actual headaches sometimes. I mean, the frustration of just trying to get a handful of pics sorted and transferred to my pic sharing site in a condition remotely like the originals, to the point that it becomes 4 am, and I STILL haven't accomplished what in any other game is a simple task! And this is just one issue. For others, it's a broken online system. For others, it's the anger over AWD domination. For others, it's the physics exploits ruining leaderboards to this day. Some people like McLaren don't use Photo Mode, don't paint cars, don't collect liveries, don't race on line... in short, don't do ANYTHING but race bots offline. Sure, ignore just about every Forza-centric feature, and it's probably a great game for you.

Okay, the Standard car - and possibly track - matter is harder to avoid, especially if you only race in cockpit view and are afraid that those 800 cars won't have any interior at all. You can say that Kaz was an idiot for allowing his artists to go insane modeling back seats. But this is an HD game. Would it be acceptable to have something like Forza's foggy interiors, for the sake of maybe 50 more Premium cars? 25? You might be enthusiastically saying yes, but I prefer Kaz's call on that. As well as not farming out work to third world countries.

Quality (of car choices) over quantity...

And your opinion?

I know people complain about the 100,000,000 Skylines in GT4, and I've voiced some disdain myself over the trucks, SUVs and "dinkmobiles" in the GT vehicle lists. But I've still raced every single one make race in GT4. I figure if Kaz took the time to put them in there, I should take the time to see why he thought they were important, and I never did rant that I wanted my 10 minutes back. And obviously, GT5's car list is going to look a lot like GT4's. Works for me.

The people want what the people want. Criticize Forza's amount of supercars and various exotica all you want; there's a reason PD has added more of them.

If you're looking for 300 more supercars, I bet you aren't going to be very happy. But I have a feeling that we're both going to enjoy endless car shopping in all classes and ranges, so it's all good.

This is actually admittance then that they aren't up to the same standards as nearly every other racing game on the current-gen consoles then? See, that wasn't so hard!

Do you recall me saying that the Standard cars - and tracks if we get them - would all be of the level of Prologue's models, or even Forza 2's? You'll have to remind me where I posted that.

Roll on, November 2.

A good call!

 

[McLaren]

Some people like McLaren don't use Photo Mode, don't paint cars, don't collect liveries, don't race on line... in short, don't do ANYTHING but race bots offline. Sure, ignore just about every Forza-centric feature, and it's probably a great game for you.

LOL at that I put words in your mouth or that Slip makes up things you say & then you type this.

I don't race online, but you'll have to point out the part where I said I don't use photo mode or paint cars. Wait, there isn't one because I have done that stuff.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=125166
http://www.forzacentral.com/forum/showthread.php?33463-Mc.-s-Photos-(Time-Attack-NSX)

Don't be bitter because I call your bias & hypocrisy out. You're a fanboy & if you can freely admit that, then don't get upset when you learn no one takes fanboys seriously.

 

[gtracedriver]

The originals are higher quality than what you see on the PS2 in GT4.



Is that fact? Is there proof that is the case? Or are you just saying it cause the PHOTOMODE cars look better than in-game cars?
I'm honestly curious.

Yeah I have heard that too. It makes lot of sense. Now they can do some much more, so I do not understand how can people say it is same as GT4 All game uses the assets from previous games. They would have some base model and from there they can improve the quality.

Phtomode they can add more anti-aliasing and some other tricks but the gameplay models are great too going by GT5P not unlike other games which have varying amount of LOD or level of details

 

[Organ-Donor]

Thanks. Just trying to do my part as a loyal GT fanboy. But with some lucid perspective.

I know my posts are often long winded essays, but I try to say all I can about the subject. I love cars, and therefore I love GT, and love to yack about it. I'm sure some would say that I love to hear myself type, but then, I do have a story with a chapter 100 pages long, and counting...

Been a good read the last couple pages:tup:

 

[JDMKING13]

Yeah I have heard that too. It makes lot of sense. Now they can do some much more, so I do not understand how can people say it is same as GT4 All game uses the assets from previous games. They would have some base model and from there they can improve the quality.

Phtomode they can add more anti-aliasing and some other tricks but the gameplay models are great too going by GT5P not unlike other games which have varying amount of LOD or level of details

👍 GT5 is the 1st game imo to take car graphics to another level. This is with the premium cars. Other racing games have not taken a leap graphically as GT5 has done with their premium cars and tracks.