Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Goshin2568]

IMO they should import GT4 tracks for arcade and online. That way, we could still race on them, but wouldn't have to deal with crappy graphics on GT life if some people don't want to use standard tracks.

 

[Tenacious D]

Again I disagree.

I would much rather have standard tracks alongside premium tracks. The reason being is although graphically the standard tracks wouldn't be as impressive at least it gives us more variety to race on. I can assure you playing the same tracks over again becomes very tiresome very quickly. This is especially true when racing against friends online.

Sorry but in my opinion their is too much fixation with graphics on this thread.

Well, graphics solely, but I'm in complete agreement with you there, IVOR. 👍 The skimpy selection of tracks in Forza 2 got tiresome quickly. If they need tracks from previous games to give us a good selection of courses, by all means, bring on Standard tracks!

IMO they should import GT4 tracks for arcade and online. That way, we could still race on them, but wouldn't have to deal with crappy graphics on GT life if some people don't want to use standard tracks.

Import the tracks from ALL GT games, and touch up the skins and textures appropriately. But include them in GT Mode too. I've been using Arcade Mode a lot to do my photoshooting, and it's been a blast. But if GT Mode is short sheeted in track count, and we have to go to Arcade to get hold of a good selection of courses, that will really blow.

 

[gtracedriver]

I am pretty sure there is nothing known as standard tracks. Or we do not get the premium or standard cars to be restricted on certain tracks I do not think it was about numbers, they wanted to have as many as they could. Standard models are just fine or if you like premiums are too good. Having more cars is definitely better I hope we get 250 premiums. They have only mentioned 200+

 

[GTRufus]

i don't give a damn about "standard" and "premium" cars. We have seen them 1000 times in real life. So why should PD take another 5 years to add the interior to the standard cars?
And i hope most of people here know that Blu-Ray discs have limited memory. Don't you think that it is time to release the game now? The developping took anway too long. The gameplay is more important than graphics.....

 

[trk29]

Again I disagree.

I would much rather have standard tracks alongside premium tracks. The reason being is although graphically the standard tracks wouldn't be as impressive at least it gives us more variety to race on. I can assure you playing the same tracks over again becomes very tiresome very quickly. This is especially true when racing against friends online.

Sorry but in my opinion their is too much fixation with graphics on this thread.

I agree with you. The more tracks the better. If there are standard tracks I'm sure they will look great. Plus it would be a little like Prologue.

 

[Conquerer]

Yeah, I'd definitely prefer to have standard tracks than not have them. I mean, hey, look at the first Nurburgring and La Sarthe we saw. Those just seemed to be upscaled GT4 courses in HD but they still looked quite impressive. If we can get that level of quality for the rest of GT4's tracks that don't make the "premium" list, then I'll definitely be satisfied. The more tracks the merrier. If you don't want standard tracks, then don't drive on them. We'll see how long you last doing that, though.

 

[DestinyDanny]

Sorry if i've missed something, but where has the standard and premium tracks idea come from?
I really don't think they have just ported tracks into GT5, could you imagine racing on them with ps2 level grass textures and tarmac? it just wouldn't look right, i believe all tracks have been recreated in full next gen detail

 

[Custer85]

They could just split the game like this:

GT Mode (aka career mode):
Premium Cars
Premium Tracks

Arcade Mode:
Standard Cars (transferable from GT PSP)
Premium Cars (transferable from GT5P)
Standard Tracks (transferable from GT PSP)
Premium Tracks (tranferable from GT5P)

The GT Mode whould be a complete package, without having two differnt kinds of cars and two different kinds of tracks. This way the GT Mode whould feel complete and not as half-heartedly, as it would, if you have awesome cars and not so good ones.
In the end there might not be standard and premium tracks at all.

 

[Tenacious D]

There were a few images taken of race prep screens, and some of us noticed that an option entry was something like "Track Type: Premium." The inference that can be drawn from that is that some tracks might be Standard. Maybe those are classic GT tracks that were ported over and tweaked, or as someone suggested in the track thread, maybe those are courses made with the Track Editor. I think we'll learn about this at GamesCom.

As for Premium cars and tracks in GT Mode only, I think that's a very bad idea, but we'll see.

 

[Exorcet]

GT Mode (aka career mode):
Premium Cars
Premium Tracks

The GT Mode whould be a complete package

More like limited content to me. If they're going to do that, it had better be optional.

 

[Devedander]

i don't give a damn about "standard" and "premium" cars. We have seen them 1000 times in real life.

By that logic, it doesn't matter what cars look like since we have seen them all (btw there are very few cars I have seen 1000 times and many I haven't seen at all... dunno about you) so why not just release the game 2D sprites (oh and better toss out any negativity about that "other games" accuracy).

So why should PD take another 5 years to add the interior to the standard cars?

Isn't the real question what took 5 years anyway considering the standard cars?

And i hope most of people here know that Blu-Ray discs have limited memory.

And I don't think we know how many layers GT5 is currently using and if another layer might be feasible. Also I hope we know every PS3 came with a HD and a second disc or mandatory install is almost certainly desireable compared to missing content.

The argument about space being the limiting factor is an incredibly weak one, lets not revisit that again.

Don't you think that it is time to release the game now? The developping took anway too long. The gameplay is more important than graphics.....

Absolutely it's about time! Although it's annoying that even WITH this much time the graphics aren't where they could be on many cars.

And it's funny... before standard cars came out the graphics were very important and oft used ammo in beating down competing games... now that standards are out, a lot of that energy seems to have turned into defending how "not bad" they are... such are the dangers of getting all inflated early on.

 

[GT]

This is becoming ridiculous; is there nothing else left to talk about then this?

For those who seem to think that GT5 has been in production for so long and seemingly cannot comprehend why PD have only 200 premiums consider this: perhaps it took them all this time to realize the premium models; perhaps the amount of detail and care that has gone into these 200 models reflects the time PD spend on them; perhaps they had more to do than model cars; perhaps you're being a bit inconsiderate?

Do people really expect a 1000 premium models? Let reality hit you in the head and perhaps then you'll be able to comprehend what is really going on: we're getting a great product with WRC, SuperGT, NASCAR, Formula One, a 1000 cars, great physics, day-night, probably weather, photo-mode, damage, a wealth of tuning options, online racing, GT-TV, the list is really endless.

Considering the above 200 cars to me seems fair; and 800 standard cars are awesome. Do they look as good as the premiums? No, but they by no means look bad; I really think they look great and will drive fantastically with the new physics engine.

So ask yourself what you're complaining about; did you want a 1000 premium cars? Are you unhappy with 200?

As often in life there are two choices here:
- refuse to accept reality and the amount of work that goes into creating such a product and simply keep on moaning without any ratio, or:
- see things as they are, accept the reality and try to understand the difficulty in undertaking what PD have done and accept it knowing full well that there is nothing that you can do to change the situation thus rendering complaining obsolete.

Look, at the end of the day we are getting an awesome product, we all have to wait, it's just that some choose to wait in a mature manner while others panic...so which one are you?

 

[the Interceptor]

To my understanding, Kaz has hinted that they spent too much time with doing the premium models. As posted on the news page, he stated that...

The level of precision we’ve achieved [in GT5] is actually more suited to the next generation of machines. The detail that goes into a premium model [has] gone beyond the level of the current PlayStation.

To me, it sounds a bit like a justification for going crazy on the details while forgetting that time is crucial. However, the time spent on programming premium cars was not a waste because it will pay off in the making of even more detailed GTs of the future. Nonetheless, the premium cars of GT5 exceed the quality level of graphics the PS3 can cope with, therefore it was a time waster on the way to GT5. If PD and Kaz had planned this more thoroughly, it is well possible that we would be reading about getting 400 premium cars and 600 standards now...

 

[RedSuinit]

By that logic, it doesn't matter what cars look like since we have seen them all (btw there are very few cars I have seen 1000 times and many I haven't seen at all... dunno about you) so why not just release the game 2D sprites (oh and better toss out any negativity about that "other games" accuracy).

I'm with Dev on this one.

Isn't the real question what took 5 years anyway considering the standard cars?

Damage, Day to night transitions, physics model, highly detailed recreations of tracks from previous GT games (like the reworking of the ENTIRE nurburgring), the incredibly high detailed recreation of several NEW tracks, (hopefully) an awesome online system (the details sound really good right now), I don't know if that is all the new features that we have heard about recently, but who knows what else will be announced at Gamescom.

And I don't think we know how many layers GT5 is currently using and if another layer might be feasible. Also I hope we know every PS3 came with a HD and a second disc or mandatory install is almost certainly desireable compared to missing content.

The argument about space being the limiting factor is an incredibly weak one, lets not revisit that again.



Absolutely it's about time! Although it's annoying that even WITH this much time the graphics aren't where they could be on many cars.

And it's funny... before standard cars came out the graphics were very important and oft used ammo in beating down competing games... now that standards are out, a lot of that energy seems to have turned into defending how "not bad" they are... such are the dangers of getting all inflated early on.

The only time anyone has ever said (they're not that bad) is in reference to the standard cars, and the only reason why we are even discussing standard cars is because people like you are obsessing over them! I would love to see this thread die so that we can get back to talking about stuff that hasn't been beat into the ground.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

y).



Isn't the real question what took 5 years anyway considering the standard cars?





.

Obviously you didn't read my previous posts or deliberately chose to ignore them!

There is more to GT5 than just premium cars and considering the detail of these im surprised PD managed 200. So because you ignored my post let me remind you again what features Sony playstation magazine said was going to be in GT5.

1. Nascar, WRC, Super GT, Some F1 cars, Go karts.
2. Weather which does have an effect on the way cars handle.
3. Track editor which allows you to share with your friends.
4. 3D which according to them when you play GT5 in 3D you never want to play in 2D again.
5. Online featuring 16 players with upto 32 in private lobby. My lounge allows you to send messages to friends and track their progress on/offline plus much more.
6. Photo mode.
7. GT TV.

Some features are still to be announced. So as you can see PD have been busy these past 5yrs and considering the above, plus they had to stop development for GT PSP, I think we're fortunate to get what GT5 is offering. Don't forget the above features is what the Forza community have been crying out for years and fortunately GT5 will have them all. Both magazines that I have recently purchased state that when you see GT5 you fully understand why its taken 5yrs.

I forgot to add stunningly detailed tracks, day/night transitions, damage.

 

[gtracedriver]

Sorry if i've missed something, but where has the standard and premium tracks idea come from?
I really don't think they have just ported tracks into GT5, could you imagine racing on them with ps2 level grass textures and tarmac? it just wouldn't look right, i believe all tracks have been recreated in full next gen detail

Yeah you are right. They will be having lots of track from previous game but they always keep improving and I hope they do https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5s-improved-textures-flying-debris/

The premium track came from one of the videos where the 2 min demo was shown and in the menu premium was labeled. That could be just as a reference for them or something. Since there has been no word about it or in any previews or anywhere. I guess that thing will never exist in GT5 retail version.

 

[Devedander]

This is becoming ridiculous; is there nothing else left to talk about then this?

Actually yes... Since e3 there has been kind of a drought of news so many of us enthusiasts are stuck rehashing.

For those who seem to think that GT5 has been in production for so long and seemingly cannot comprehend why PD have only 200 premiums consider this: perhaps it took them all this time to realize the premium models; perhaps the amount of detail and care that has gone into these 200 models reflects the time PD spend on them; perhaps they had more to do than model cars; perhaps you're being a bit inconsiderate?

Oh I fully understand why, it was a rhetoical question. But that being why I think its completely legit to be unhappy with the obviously poor decision making and project management.

And inconsiderate? Of what? Of the fact pd dug their own grave with this whole fiasco and how they marketed/handled it?

Do people really expect a 1000 premium models? Let reality hit you in the head and perhaps then you'll be able to comprehend what is really going on: we're getting a great product with WRC, SuperGT, NASCAR, Formula One, a 1000 cars, great physics, day-night, probably weather, photo-mode, damage, a wealth of tuning options, online racing, GT-TV, the list is really endless.

Go back in the forum a year... Before we knew what we know now and ask that question. The answer across the board would be a resounding yes that's wyat we expect and its what pd is advertising.

Its ridiculous how many people come along basically arguing this is somehow common sense we shouldn't be dissapointed in when not that long ago everyone thought that's what we were getting.

Considering the above 200 cars to me seems fair; and 800 standard cars are awesome. Do they look as good as the premiums? No, but they by no means look bad; I really think they look great and will drive fantastically with the new physics engine.

There we go again... The its not that bad argument...

So ask yourself what you're complaining about

At the end of the day pd did a miserable job of managing expextations and mde their own bed. Us being dissapointed is no ones fault but there's and just bending over and being happy about it isn't rational its just fanboyism.

Its perfectly fine to find faults in gt and be unhappy about them even (especially) as an enthusiast.

 

[analog]

Both magazines that I have recently purchased state that when you see GT5 you fully understand why its taken 5yrs.

I've also read and watched a few impressions which were glowing with praise and mentioned how incredible and real it looked.
But don't forget these impressions were mainly established playing the Premium cars only and from what we've seen of them it's easy to see why they're impressive.
And a lot of the things you mentioned are logical to be expected in this day and age ( comprehensive online ) or were also in previous games ( GTTV and Photo Mode ) and I have yet to see track editor being fully confirmed ( let's hope it will be in ).
As for the racing series like NASCAR and WRC, that doesn't take more time to implement than any other series ( or cars ) in previous GT's, these are not features but just new licences which allow them to include these cars.
I'm sure GT5 will be a great game overall but the Standard/Premium issue cannot be fully explained by these new aspects you mentioned or be completely ignored just because it has all these new aspects ( at least not by me ) but I agree that GT-PSP probably had something to do with it.

 

[steve30x]

The argument about space being the limiting factor is an incredibly weak one, lets not revisit that again.

Why is it weak? If we are required to install 25GB of data then some of us with the small HDD are kind of fudged. I only have a 60GB HDD and I have most of it used with other games installs , music and a few films.

 

[TokyoDrift]

Do people really expect a 1000 premium models?

Evidently, yes.

Let reality hit you in the head and perhaps then you'll be able to comprehend what is really going on: we're getting a great product with WRC

Right, but are these official liveries with official tracks and properly structured events? Exactly.

SuperGT

In what capacity, name only?

NASCAR

Yep, with a fraction of the liveries, a fraction of the tracks, and nowhere near the right number of cars on track at once

Formula One

No, we only have (based on Prologue and past games) models of past Formula One cars running around whatever tracks are in the game. They have no rights to use that license.

a 1000 cars

Give me a car list, then I'll believe that number.

great physics

Played the game have you? That's a matter of opinion because some people did not like the physics in the TT demo for example.

day-night

Yep, I'll give you that, but how controllable? Real time? Scaled down proportionally with the number of laps? Fixed? What options do we have?

probably weather

Probably...key word right there.

photo-mode

Photo-modes, plural. Woohooo...

damage

Weak damage on 80% of the cars, yes.

a wealth of tuning options

Oh, what would they be then?

online racing

Wow, so unique to GT5 eh?

GT-TV

How will this feature in the game then?

the list is really endless.

Wrong, the list is finite, and from what I have read, unjustifiable of its extended development time. Dragging it out to Nov 2010 is a joke, but one we all just have to laugh at and wait.

Why is it weak? If we are required to install 25GB of data then some of us with the small HDD are kind of fudged. I only have a 60GB HDD and I have most of it used with other games installs , music and a few films.

So suck it up and buy a larger hard drive. For less than the price of a game you can have a 250GB drive...

 

[Luminis]

Why is it weak? If we are required to install 25GB of data then some of us with the small HDD are kind of fudged. I only have a 60GB HDD and I have most of it used with other games installs , music and a few films.

You wouldn't be willing to 'sacrifice' the music and the movies on your HDD for more GT5 content (or move them to an USB storage device)? Or upgrade to a larger HDD, which are dirt cheap nowadays?

And even if they didn't want to go with a mandatory install for GT5, it's not like it would be impossible to use two discs with no installation, I guess.

 

[gtracedriver]

This Standard vs premium is been blown way out of proportion. The main problem PD have is the disparity between them. Due to this they have given open invitation to everyone to criticize them and exaggerate it as much as they can. So in this regard I think they have made a mistake. People do not understand to make a engine from scratch it takes 2-3years. Most people do know nothing about development of this project and various reason behind it. But it is easy to complain

 

[steve30x]

I will not suck it up.

I am willing to sacrifice the films and music for the additional install but not everybody would be willing to do so. Also I am selling my old 60GB PS3 that I got 4 years ago to my brother to get a slim model which burns less electricity. SO HDD space wont be an issue.

This Standard vs premium is been blown way out of proportion. The main problem PD have is the disparity between them. Due to this they have given open invitation to everyone to criticize them and exaggerate it as much as they can. So in this regard I think they have made a mistake. People do not understand to make a engine from scratch it takes 2-3years. Most people do know nothing about development of this project and various reason behind it. But it is easy to complain

Even if there was 1000 premium cars there would be something to cry about. There is just no keeping some people happy eg 2D trees , Skid Marks , Sparks or reverse lights.

 

[steve30x]

Double post sorry

 

[Devedander]

People do not understand to make a engine from scratch it takes 2-3years. Most people do know nothing about development of this project and various reason behind it. But it is easy to complain

2 to 3 years for that part of the team. Its not like 3d modellers generally double as coders also. Work can be done simultaneously so its not like 3 years to build an engine and 3 years to model cars need to stack and be 6 years.

While talking about how people don't know how making a game goes it sems like you are kind of ignoring how making a game works.

 

[Luminis]

This Standard vs premium is been blown way out of proportion. The main problem PD have is the disparity between them. Due to this they have given open invitation to everyone to criticize them and exaggerate it as much as they can. So in this regard I think they have made a mistake. People do not understand to make a engine from scratch it takes 2-3years. Most people do know nothing about development of this project and various reason behind it. But it is easy to complain

You know, as long as PD's charging me money for a copy of GT5, I won't just stand there and admire what they did because it wasn't easy. If that was the case, I'd have to buy basically any game out there. Or rather every friggin' product ever created.

But yeah, maybe PD should've kept silent about the standard cars so that nobody could criticise them. Until we're playing the game, that is

On another note, creating an engine from scratch doesn't necessarily take two to three years. In fact, nobody knows how long it took PD to create the garphic engine itself. So I'm kinda amazed that you, appearently, do.

 

[analog]

This Standard vs premium is been blown way out of proportion. The main problem PD have is the disparity between them. Due to this they have given open invitation to everyone to criticize them and exaggerate it as much as they can. So in this regard I think they have made a mistake. People do not understand to make a engine from scratch it takes 2-3years. Most people do know nothing about development of this project and various reason behind it. But it is easy to complain

Perhaps most people on this forum or in general who wait for GT5 have no clue about game development ( I haven't ) but they do have expectations based on a little game called GT5 Prologue or what can logically be expected on the current gen especially after the enormous amount of time it took.
Yes they may be unrealistic, or wrongly assumed, that's why communication to alter those expectations is so vitally important from an early stage.
PD just avoided ( and still avoid ) and remain unclear about this whole issue apart from putting sentences on their site which can be interpreted many ways.
You can't expect people to fully know why this whole issue is as it is, you can't expect people to make excuses on the part of PD when they anticipated a different game, you can inform people early on and during the process to avoid this.
The fact they choose not to suggest either it isn't as bad as many make it out to be ( let's hope that is the case ) or they just stick their heads in the sand and hope the rest of the game will blind us from its imperfections.

 

[Akira AC]

You know, as long as PD's charging me money for a copy of GT5, I won't just stand there and admire what they did because it wasn't easy. If that was the case, I'd have to buy basically any game out there. Or rather every friggin' product ever created.

But yeah, maybe PD should've kept silent about the standard cars so that nobody could criticise them. Until we're playing the game, that is

On another note, creating an engine from scratch doesn't necessarily take two to three years. In fact, nobody knows how long it took PD to create the garphic engine itself. So I'm kinda amazed that you, appearently, do.

I get your point but remember that GT5 is not only cars,It also contains the daylight changes,maybe those not take two years but the illumination and re texturing of tracks like nurburgring with limited staff will take a lot of time,the addition of new tracks like TG test track,Madrid circuit and add versions of nurburgring will take a lot of time,since they are starting from zero,and with no previous base to start with make that task,harder and therefore slower,also remember that PD have limited staff unlike games like MW2 who had 180 people working on that project and third party partners to make additional recording and so on,besides of that the premium cars take a lot of work for the time.

Some people think that PD put the entire team into 1 task but that is not true since the whole time is split out to complete several tasks,in example the 3d design team have to take photos of the cars,then replicate them and then apply respective layers while other design team(in example the track design)have to go and take photos of the actual track,and since they include day/night transition they have to take photos and replicate the whole 24hours cycle, which is impressive for a game of these characteristics.

Sorry about bringing out the Forza topic but it has to be said that the quality of both tracks and cars in Gran Turismo seems to be really superior to what everyone is expecting,but the problem that it carried out is that more quality more time less content.

 

[Exorcet]

Played the game have you? That's a matter of opinion because some people did not like the physics in the TT demo for example.

Not so straight forward. Based solely on a simulation standpoint, the physics get better as they get more realistic. This would make TT the best, and it could be estimated that GT will play like TT. However, it could be argued that PD is seeking a balance between simulation and arcade, and in that case it would really be opinion based. Admittedly, it probably is the latter though.

In any case, while PD had more to do than make models (hence 5 years and only 20% premium cars), outsourcing could have solved a lot of problems.

 

[RedSuinit]

Evidently, yes.


Right, but are these official liveries with official tracks and properly structured events? Exactly.

We don't know yet in either direction.

In what capacity, name only?

One again, we don't know in either direction.

Yep, with a fraction of the liveries, a fraction of the tracks, and nowhere near the right number of cars on track at once

Really? So you know exactly how many tracks there are? You know how many liveries they will have when it comes out? We have heard 9 as the number that they have now, with more to come. You know which drivers agreed to allow their cars to be featured, and what teams? You are right about cars though, we have only heard of 16 cars on track at once.

No, we only have (based on Prologue and past games) models of past Formula One cars running around whatever tracks are in the game. They have no rights to use that license.

Truth. Darn you Codemasters...

Give me a car list, then I'll believe that number.

Agreed.

Played the game have you? That's a matter of opinion because some people did not like the physics in the TT demo for example.

Because it was too hard and realistic for them. Everyone wanted to be able to mash the accelerator in the middle of a turn and not spin out. The physics in the TT demo were VERY good.

Yep, I'll give you that, but how controllable? Real time? Scaled down proportionally with the number of laps? Fixed? What options do we have?

I'll have to find the link for the interview, but Kaz has said that you would be able to do a 24 hour race at the 'ring, and be able to have the trasition happen in real-time.

Probably...key word right there.

That probably, is more like, highly probable, seeing as how it is listed as a feature in OPM's recent article.

Photo-modes, plural. Woohooo...

Clearly not a big selling point for you, eh?

Weak damage on 80% of the cars, yes.

Then don't use them, they're not going to make you. The 200 cars is enough for a game in and of itself.

Oh, what would they be then?

I was wondering the same thing. Clearly he knows something we don't.

Wow, so unique to GT5 eh?

No, but some of the online features that have been revealed to us sure are. You're own personal GT space where you can invite up to 32 friends for a private driving session, online "track days", etc.

How will this feature in the game then?

Probably the same way it did in prologue.

Wrong, the list is finite, and from what I have read, unjustifiable of its extended development time. Dragging it out to Nov 2010 is a joke, but one we all just have to laugh at and wait.

In YOUR opinion. The 200 practically true to life cars, the real-time deformation engine, the controllable day to night transitions, the highly probable weather system, the beefed up graphics engine (including the lighting, smoke, debris, etc.), the beautifully recreated tracks (like the nurburgring, which puts even the GT4 version to ABSOLUTE shame) along with several NEW tracks that have been recreated with prestine detail, reverse lights (something I never really cared about, but hey it's cool), ray tracing headlights and tail-lights (clearly evident based on the fact that the light can interact with the debris and smoke in the game, the clearly improved collision engine. I could keep going, but I am out of time.

So suck it up and buy a larger hard drive. For less than the price of a game you can have a 250GB drive...

Agreed.