Zeta News 2.0: New VF Commodore and Chevrolet SS

[nd 4 holden spd]

No word on pricing yet either, but when they say "competitive," my guess is that we're looking at a $27K start point for the V6 models, probably right at $30K (or just north of it) for the SS version. That, basically, means that they've got the Mustang square in their sights.

If it's the same price as Commodore, I'm definitely going to consider financing one for myself. I'll take an LT 300hp V6 with RS package, and a 6spd manual. I wonder if I actually could afford it though........

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Ouch, 3750lbs for the V6.

Owowowowowow! That hurts.

It could be worse, it could be the Challenger.

Thing is, that's 200-250lbs heavier than the Mustang GT and 400-450lbs more than the Mustang V6. In other words... If Ford used the 3.5L and updated the 4.6 a bit, the Camaro would be nice and toasty.

Sorry if I'm trolling a bit, but... I'm very disappointed in the two newcomers (Recent returns?) to the ponycar scene. Seems like if you leave the game, you lose your magic.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Ouch, 3750lbs for the V6.

Owowowowowow! That hurts.

It could be worse, it could be the Challenger.

Thing is, that's 200-250lbs heavier than the Mustang GT and 400-450lbs more than the Mustang V6. In other words... If Ford used the 3.5L and updated the 4.6 a bit, the Camaro would be nice and toasty.

Sorry if I'm trolling a bit, but... I'm very disappointed in the two newcomers (Recent returns?) to the ponycar scene. Seems like if you leave the game, you lose your magic.

I too am a little disappointed in the weight, 1700kg is a bit much, but I'm not worried. GM's cars always handle better than their excessive weight suggests, or at least the Zeta does. I suspect it will handle like a 1500-1600kg car. Strange it's not really lighter than the 4-door sedan though.

 

[Joey D]

So when are they going to be out on the road? Are they even in production yet? I'm sure I'll see one on the road before the year is out whether wearing M plates or civilian ones.

 

[Tornado]

Strange it's not really lighter than the 4-door sedan though.

Its 200 pounds lighter.

 

[YSSMAN]

So when are they going to be out on the road? Are they even in production yet? I'm sure I'll see one on the road before the year is out whether wearing M plates or civilian ones.

They're building pre-production units in Canada right now, those will be going to the GM brass here in the US, presumably Australia, Asia and Europe. Those will likely include test cars as well.

The cars we'll see on dealer lots won't show up until late January at the earliest, but most estimates are saying March will be the time where it will be easy to get your hands on one. The convertible Camaro won't go on sale until this time next year.

===

RE: Weight

Given how heavy the Zeta chassis is, I was surprised they got it down to 3700 lbs at all. I knew that it was their target area (remember, the 4th gen left us at just over 3600 lbs in SS form), so they did a good enough job. Its still more than 300 lbs less than the Challenger, and with the extra cog in the gearbox, I expect it won't have a problem outrunning the MOPAR.

As for the Mustang, its a trade-off thing. Despite the extra weight in the Camaro, I suspect that it will handle a lot better given the IRS out back and the larger footprint of the car. Given that the Camaro LT will clock in a 3700 lbs (about 100 more than the GT) and has a similar power output, they will perform similarly no matter what. As for the SS model, that's a bit harder to guesstimate. I don't think it will have a problem outrunning the Challenger SRT-8, but I can't see it taking the GT500 down. It'll need an LS7 for that...

 

[Tornado]

I don't think it will have a problem outrunning the Challenger SRT-8, but I can't see it taking the GT500 down.

You have to remember that the GT500 isn't particularly fast, comparatively speaking. I don't see 4.5 seconds as too hard of an acceleration target to match; considering the 300C SRT-8 nearly matches it and the Camaro has the same horsepower, wider tires, a stickshift and 340 less pounds. Then there is the whole "turning left and right" fiasco.

 

[YSSMAN]

I suppose that is true, but I do not wish to over estimate the performance of the car. Perhaps, possibly, the better target will end up being the GT500KR? Hard to say of course...

 

[Tornado]

I don't think the SS has the oomph for the KR. It would probably be faster on a track, but I still think it would be a normal GT500 competitor more than anything.

 

[Joey D]

We have a new Ring time to argue over!

Chevrolet Camaro SS laps the 'Ring in... 8:20
In this automotive day and age, any vehicle that has even a trace amount of performance in its DNA has to make the rounds around the Nurburgring. The new Chevy Camaro SS isn't exempt. So after GM revealed the Camaro on Monday, one of the scribes at InsideLine ran up to an engineer to find out what kind of time the Camaro put down at the Nordschleife. According to Doug Houlihan, GM's chief engineer for global rear-wheel-drive vehicles, the Camaro SS ran the 'Ring in 8:20.

To put that into perspective, the recently released 2008 Cobalt SS did the deed in 8:22, along with the BMW E46 M3 and the last generation BMW M Coupe, followed by the Lotus Exige S and Porsche Cayman S at 8:25.

Ed Welburn, GM'S veep of global design, concedes that the Camaro's shape is merely adequate from an aerodynamic standpoint, with a coefficient of drag on the SS of 0.35 and on the LS/LT models of 0.36 – largely a result of the recessed headlamps and full-width grille.

Houlihan went on to say that their time at the 'Ring allowed them to dial in the steering response and suspension settings, and that the StabiliTrak traction control system on the Camaro will be the best GM can offer. Settings on the SS model allow drivers to choose between track and performance modes, along with completely disabling the system. A launch control feature will also be available on the SS.

The only question now is: where's the video?

 

[Tornado]

Not bad for such a heavy car.

 

[Bones Brigade]

I don't think the SS has the oomph for the KR. It would probably be faster on a track, but I still think it would be a normal GT500 competitor more than anything.

the kr is also more expensive than a z06. yuck.

as far as the camaros competition, i thought ford was bringing out its own 6+ liter v8 and IRS for the mustang by 2011. a year behind but im more concerned with how that will match up, rather than how the underperforming, overpriced shelbys match up. as for the challenger, its already dead. the bullit is just a tad slower to 60 and through the 1/4 mile, with 100 less horsepower and the 5 years old SVT cobra will match the srt8 in anything. itll be a ford/chevy game in a few years for sure.

 

[Tornado]

and the 5 years old SVT cobra will match the srt8 in anything

Well, strictly speaking, the old SVT Cobra was faster than the GT500 as well, so that isn't quite fair.

 

[Bones Brigade]

Well, strictly speaking, the old SVT Cobra was faster than the GT500 as well, so that isn't quite fair.

i wasnt trying to say that the gt500 was better than the challenger. i dislike them equally.

 

[YSSMAN]

as far as the camaros competition, i thought ford was bringing out its own 6+ liter v8 and IRS for the mustang by 2011.

No word on the IRS inclusion (I'm doubting it until they decide to discard the D2C), and last I had heard, they've dumped the 6.2L Hurricane option in favor of a new 5.0L unit that should be able to do 400 BHP while sipping less fuel. My guess is that, either way, the Mustang will gain weight... And without an extra cog in the gearbox or a proper "modern" suspension, it'll have a hard time beating the Camaro.

...But! Problem for the Camaro is that it may be "too civilized" for some, and they'll back away slowly towards the Mustang (which will likely remain cheaper), the "old-school" champion...

====

Check out the interior lighting!

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Its 200 pounds lighter.

The V6 model is only around 40kg lighter than a V6 Commodore. That's almost the difference between me driving and someone small driving.

I suppose that is true, but I do not wish to over estimate the performance of the car. Perhaps, possibly, the better target will end up being the GT500KR? Hard to say of course...

Given the heavier HSVs get a claimed 4.9sec 0-100km/hr, the Camaro would probably be lucky to get 4.7 or 4.8, but they speak of launch control, which would aid the V8's biggest woe- traction.................

We have a new Ring time to argue over!

Did they just say it beats the current generation M3? Schweet!

Edit: My mistake, E46 is the previous generation.

the kr is also more expensive than a z06. yuck.

as far as the camaros competition, i thought ford was bringing out its own 6+ liter v8 and IRS for the mustang by 2011. a year behind but im more concerned with how that will match up, rather than how the underperforming, overpriced shelbys match up. as for the challenger, its already dead. the bullit is just a tad slower to 60 and through the 1/4 mile, with 100 less horsepower and the 5 years old SVT cobra will match the srt8 in anything. itll be a ford/chevy game in a few years for sure.

People will buy the Challenger anyway, it's got buckets of style, and extremely good looks and a Hemi V8. All you need is a smarter gear box and bam, very nice car.



Edit: I've said how much I want one right? The only thing that would sway me from perhaps actually buying a V6 Camaro is the Alpha platform. Any word on that one recently?

 

[harrytuttle]

Does anyone have any idea what's with fake diffusers on cars these days? I mean, for those who'd care, they know the difference. Those who don't, won't. So why increase the Cd (especially under the car, the area this thing is alleged to reduce drag) for something no one cares about?

 

[YSSMAN]

This was a piece of the car's design from the get-go, and as far as I can read, GM had no intention of having it be a functional piece whatsoever. Its more for style, and that's about it. Although, it was smaller on the concept car...

 

[Omnis]

My Hyundai accent has a bumper-diffuser too. Gives me an extra 5hp.

 

[Venari]

Does anyone have any idea what's with fake diffusers on cars these days? I mean, for those who'd care, they know the difference. Those who don't, won't.

Possibly true. The fake diffuser is a styling trick. If the area was painted body colour, the back of the car would look too tall and out of proportion. The brain is always interested in proportion. Proportion, proportion, proportion. It's very, very important.

Because this styling trick also happens to look something like a device you'd find on a racecar, it is marketing/stylist guys' manna from heaven.

So why increase the Cd (especially under the car, the area this thing is alleged to reduce drag) for something no one cares about?

Um, where is your evidence this device increases drag? I find it highly unlikely that any form of styling in this area would significantly affect drag. Look on the back of every Aston Martin, there's a fake diffuser on those too. It does actually somewhat tidy the airflow on those cars, simply because the underside of the car is plated with undertrays making airflow under the car relatively smooth. AML mount transmission coolers in that area, and as such they spend a lot of time developing the surfaces to flow air in a tidy fashion, but they don't 'diffuse' air like a racecar does. All roadcars at at least 4" too high for that anyway.

GM will certainly have worked in the aero chambers to figure out what this styled area of the car is doing in terms of airflow, again, probably not to 'diffuse', just to make sure that the part isn't going to fall off or flex in the airflow.

Iincreasing drag? I'd like to see the evidence.

 

[Hitman]

The Shelby GT500 will put up a good match to the new SS. The Challenger wont do crap. The Mustang GT will outperform the V6 version. The Challenger will be humiliated, even with the 375 horse hemi. Sorry. Mustang will win, especially since it is bringin its own 6.2 liter, 450 horse big block V8, into a normal GT V8 Stang. This car will haul ass because it will be the same weight as the old GT Stang, but much faster.

 

[Tornado]

The Hurricane engine program was scrapped.

 

[YSSMAN]

I think they're switching to a 400 BHP 5.0L unit the last I had heard, but even if it were the case, unless Ford adds an extra cog to the gearbox, I can't see their 100/200 lb advantage counting without it. I'm more excited about their SVO revival than the new GT with the V8, but that's just me.

 

[Tornado]

I'm more excited about their SVO revival than the new GT with the V8, but that's just me.

I thought the SVO was set to replace the GT, and the GT500 replacement/equivalent was to be the 5 liter V8?
They should just rotate the Focus RS engine and put it in the Mustang.

 

[YSSMAN]

Ford can't keep their story straight at all. I imagine that the SVO would replace the GT to some extent, but I don't think it would push the GT model into territory left open by the GT500. There are still too many people who prefer V8 power to that, so I can't see them killing the budget V8 car altogether.

Nevertheless, if they got their stuff together and wanted to give us a proper SVT replacement for the GT500, I'd be more than happy to accept that as a reasonable competitor to the Camaro SS.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

The Shelby GT500 will put up a good match to the new SS. The Challenger wont do crap. The Mustang GT will outperform the V6 version. The Challenger will be humiliated, even with the 375 horse hemi. Sorry. Mustang will win, especially since it is bringin its own 6.2 liter, 450 horse big block V8, into a normal GT V8 Stang. This car will haul ass because it will be the same weight as the old GT Stang, but much faster.

The GT500 will murder the new SS.

The Mustang GT should be getting around 400hp and therefore be a worthy SS competitor by virtue of P:W ratio.

V6 is a dead heat so long as Ford puts the new 3.5L in as the base Mustang engine.


YSSMAN: Ford will be forced to go to a T56 with the power bump on the GT. The Tremec 3650 just can't hack it.

Also, if the GT winds up with 400hp, an SVO model could be built using a turbo four producing around 325hp (which is all I can see the Duratec 23/25 building reliably off the shelf) without cutting into sales of the GT (horsepower sells cars, even today).


Now then... 'Ring times will be interesting, but considering that the Camaro is only 2 seconds quicker than the Cobalt SS... The Mustang may have a shot IF Ford goes a bit wackier on the wheel/tire combo (255-275-45-17s all around) and manages to work around the live axle. At the drag strip, it's the Mustang hands down.

Lastly, what in heck is Chevrolet going to do about the GT500? Sit there and watch?

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I hope that nobody here honestly believes the Mustang will win around a track vs the Camaro. If the Mustang went IRS suspension it might stand a better chance, but then weight would go up, and with extra cogs in the gearbox weight will go up again. If the Mustang wants to seriously compete with the Camaro, it needs to be almost as heavy as it, and then it has nothing but Chev Small Block blocking its path to being a better all-rounder, which I doubt Ford is close to beating yet. (See: FPV GT vs HSV GTS). I honestly don't think the Mustang will beat the Camaro, unless it's at the drag strip, and it's still as crap as ever in corners.

Re: What's Chev doing about GT500? Absolutley nothing, that's what. They can buy a Z06 instead and give one big middle finger to GT500 owners.

 

[Leonidae]

oh yes.. is there any chance that GM would drop their V8/V6 diesel in Camaro?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I hope that nobody here honestly believes the Mustang will win around a track vs the Camaro. If the Mustang went IRS suspension it might stand a better chance, but then weight would go up, and with extra cogs in the gearbox weight will go up again. If the Mustang wants to seriously compete with the Camaro, it needs to be almost as heavy as it, and then it has nothing but Chev Small Block blocking its path to being a better all-rounder, which I doubt Ford is close to beating yet. (See: FPV GT vs HSV GTS). I honestly don't think the Mustang will beat the Camaro, unless it's at the drag strip, and it's still as crap as ever in corners.

Re: What's Chev doing about GT500? Absolutley nothing, that's what. They can buy a Z06 instead and give one big middle finger to GT500 owners.

The GT500 doesn't weigh as much as the Camaro SS. Explain that. TALL DECK IRON BLOCK V8 vs LS, what weighs more? T56 vs T56. Obviously, the Mustang's 5.4 is heavier by a good margin, yet the car is STILL lighter (So it'll be damn hard for the Mustang to suddenly weigh as much as the Camaro). An aluminum block 5.0L mod motor backed by the T56 (whatever they call it now) with DOHC won't send weight up except for about 50lbs over the GT. Going to IRS will only send weight up by about 30-50lbs max.

So the Mustang GT weighs at that point 3650-3700lbs maximum without doing any weight saving measures and has every advantage over the Camaro in terms of performance. That said, a six-speed is absolutely not needed; the T56 will help highway fuel economy a bit, but NEVER be of any benefit when driving the car hard with stock gearing. The gear spacing of the average 5-speed and the T56 from 1st to 5th is about the same.

On the V6 front, the Mustang is already lighter despite using an iron block motor, and will only get LIGHTER when Ford swaps in the 3.5L. Even if it only gets 275bhp, it'll still be quicker than the Camaro.

Then the SVO. Easily shaving weight down to around 3300lbs with IRS and a six-speed, 325hp turbo four... Bye-bye.

Lastly... The Camaro isn't god in corners as is evidenced by it only besting the Cobalt SS by 2 seconds on the 'Ring despite the 'Ring having massively power-hungry sections. Solid axles can stick HARD around road courses (see Steeda), but lack a little refinement. So?

 

[Jim Prower]

This....is...the first time I have EVER seen a Ford Vs Chevy debate on this forum.

Maybe I'll go play alone with my overweight, uncomfortable Challenger for awhile.