Zeta News 2.0: New VF Commodore and Chevrolet SS

[Joey D]

oh yes.. is there any chance that GM would drop their V8/V6 diesel in Camaro?

No. That would be marketing suicide.

The GT500 will murder the new SS.

I would hope the GT500 would beat the SS, it has 60 more horsepower, 120 more if you opt for the KR package.

Lastly, what in heck is Chevrolet going to do about the GT500? Sit there and watch?

For the regular GT500 Chevy will point you in the direction of the Corvette which is similarly priced and for the KR they will point you at a Z06 which is cheaper.

 

[Leonidae]

well, that's funny, because in London motorshow, there had been some talk about having turbodiesel V6 in their line up.. sounds weird, but I guess it would sell in Europe where diesels are hottest thing since internal combustion engine..

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

The GT500 doesn't weigh as much as the Camaro SS. Explain that. TALL DECK IRON BLOCK V8 vs LS, what weighs more? T56 vs T56. Obviously, the Mustang's 5.4 is heavier by a good margin, yet the car is STILL lighter (So it'll be damn hard for the Mustang to suddenly weigh as much as the Camaro). An aluminum block 5.0L mod motor backed by the T56 (whatever they call it now) with DOHC won't send weight up except for about 50lbs over the GT. Going to IRS will only send weight up by about 30-50lbs max.

So the Mustang GT weighs at that point 3650-3700lbs maximum without doing any weight saving measures and has every advantage over the Camaro in terms of performance. That said, a six-speed is absolutely not needed; the T56 will help highway fuel economy a bit, but NEVER be of any benefit when driving the car hard with stock gearing. The gear spacing of the average 5-speed and the T56 from 1st to 5th is about the same.

On the V6 front, the Mustang is already lighter despite using an iron block motor, and will only get LIGHTER when Ford swaps in the 3.5L. Even if it only gets 275bhp, it'll still be quicker than the Camaro.

Then the SVO. Easily shaving weight down to around 3300lbs with IRS and a six-speed, 325hp turbo four... Bye-bye.

Lastly... The Camaro isn't god in corners as is evidenced by it only besting the Cobalt SS by 2 seconds on the 'Ring despite the 'Ring having massively power-hungry sections. Solid axles can stick HARD around road courses (see Steeda), but lack a little refinement. So?

Weight disturbution also plays a role here, if the Mustang's so light, where do you think all the weight it has is? Up the front, making for understeer. Don't forget Alpha platform either. By the time Ford gets their gear together Alpha will be right on our horizon. Then GM will have something new to slaughter poor old Ford with. In other news, I hope that the Mustang really does get as good as you say it will. Just think- then GM will be forced to drive their cars to greater things, and I certainly do want Detroit to best the Japanese Imports. For now, the Chevy will reign over the Mustang, then the Mustang will bite back, then Camaro will retaliate, hopefully, etc etc. It's pony car wars time!

 

[Venari]

GM have developed a World-marketable, American-style 2-door muscle coupe. It has modern, if budget, suspension, will be available in LHD and RHD, and contains either A) a very cost-effective and comparitively lightweight V8 engine, or B) an incredibly sophisticated high-output V6. It has been tuned on the Nurburgring (for what that's worth) and the SS shares its brake system with a variety of Italian exotica and current Aston Martin models. There was stunning promise in the concept and the production car delivers the look inside and out.

Ford's Mustang concepts were fabulous looking cars. I actually e-mailed one of the designers and congratulated him personally when I worked at Jaguar and first saw the pics. He sent me some mega-huge JPEGs in return. The production car was a vast disappointment. It didn't look as good, the interior was poor quality, it drives like a bus - and I mean, terrrrrible.

Who cares about drag racing stats as a serious pre-requisite for a road car? If I want a drag car, I'll build one - not only will it not need IRS, but it wouldn't need a diff either. Don't see that going down too well in downtown NY.

The Mustang is a success, it revitalised a small part of Ford's empire, allowing them to sell a simple, cheaply executed, rigidly engineering specified, two-car range on the back of iconic styling at a 'low sticker price'. It's made them an absolute packet due to careful marketing and accounting led engineering. It was never meant to be, nor needed to be anything more to sell by the bucketload.

What I would find remarkable here is if GM have bettered every aspect of the current Mustang and managed to match the price. I suspect there will be a slight premium charged for the Camaro simply because it isn't a Mustang. GM's global vision means that I look forward to seeing lots of these cars in the UK and Europe because of the refinement engineered into this car, and the Corvette brand also winning as people get visibility of the cars that have been engineered with thought for UK, Europe, Japan and Australia.

I also look forward to a restyled, refined, re-engined and re-engineered suspension for the Mustang. However, a large number of US purchasers don't give a damn about ride quality or handling, and certainly not about whether there is a RHD version, so whether that car ever arrives is open to question.

Edit: (Oh, and regarding diesels, I hope they do - although I'd never buy one because I love revs and progressive power. About 5 years ago, I suggested that Jaguar engineered the engine bay of the new XK to take the Lion V8 turbo-diesel, and I was laughed at. Who's laughing now?)

 

[Bones Brigade]

i used to be a huge mustang fan and ive always routed for ford in all those old motor trend comparos with the stang, camaro and firebird. but, the gt500 is disappointing. i would not be surprised at all if the camaro SS can match the gt500 to 60 (4.5 seconds) and i will be baffled and dumbstruck if it doesnt best the gt500 in roadholding, slalom and whatever other test you can put it through.

 

[YSSMAN]

oh yes.. is there any chance that GM would drop their V8/V6 diesel in Camaro?

Actually, the chances of it happening are very, very good. Sorry Joey...

There has been a lot of talk that the Camaro would receive the 4.5L diesel V8 from the truck lineup, good for more than 500 lb ft of torque, somewhere in the mid 300 BHP range (probably around 360). I haven't heard word of it in a while though, that's a small part of the problem. It seems they've shifted some more attention towards a 2.0L I4 version with 260 BHP, and a very distinct possibility of a two-mode hybrid version as well. I wouldn't doubt a diesel V6 either, but when its still up in the air as to whether or not we're getting it in the US, I can't imagine them cramming it in the car any time soon. Although, internationally speaking, I'm sure that they're considering it.

...But, we're looking at least two years after the car debuts for anything that radical...

RE: Against the Mustang

Deep analysis of the Mustang aside, you've still gotta remember that the Camaro is only down about 100 lbs when comparing the GT to the RS V6. When they've got the same amount of power and the Chevrolet is likely geared a bit better, I'm banking on it being able to outrun the Mustang not only in the straight line, but also around corners given the more complicated suspension and the brand-new chassis. Granted, the Mustang is a blast to drive, and it certainly holds its own against most cars out there... But with all of the competition changing, the Mustang is going to start to fall behind.

The problem with going up to a GT500 vs SS comparison is that despite the Chevrolet being down in power (big time), the weight difference will be negligible, but I could still expect the Camaro holding up well in the handling and acceleration department due to the newer pieces of equipment being used. Like others have said, the GT500 is chasing after the Z51 Corvette, so the Camaro SS is just bridging the gap between the special edition Mustangs and the Challenger SRT-8 (which it will proceed to beat the snot out of).

In all, its shaping up for a comparison test that will likely go down in epic proportions. While the Camaro is extremely good-looking and has some solid foundations beneath it, I will happily concede that the Mustang still stands a good chance of coming out on top because it will likely be cheaper, continue to weigh less, and still perform in an old-school manner that a lot of people seem to hold onto rather fondly.

 

[Joey D]

Why would GM bother though? As I've said it would be marketing suicide for them with the car. I have no issues with diesel engines but many other people do, especially the type of person who would be interested in a Camaro.

 

[Greycap]

Because stereotypical American car buyers =/= the only, or the smartest, car buyers in the world.

If the Camaro is going to be a global success story the diesel engine would help greatly, having a sports car with a ton of useful power (read: torque) and great mileage is a very desirable combination and probably one of the keys to success today. More than a half of the cars sold in Europe nowadays are diesels and it would be outright stupid not to try to take advantage of it.

 

[Joey D]

Really? I had no idea Americans were the only car buyers in the world, silly me.

Are you honestly saying a performance car enthusiast would look at a diesel sports car? The diesel that are sold right now are small cars, family cars, or trucks, not sports car. I see zero reason to put forth the effort of making a diesel Camaro when they are talking about putting a 2.0T which will be fairly fuel efficient.

As I've said, which you seemed to have overlooked, I have no issues with diesel powered anything. I rather like the TDi Audi R8, but many people in the automotive world tend to think otherwise. A diesel Camaro wouldn't even get so much as a glance here in America, and it seems like European performance automotive enthusiast aren't overly keen on diesels either.

 

[Omnis]

Actually, the way I see it is that muscle doesn't matter with these two cars. The only people who are that concerned about whether one car has so much HP or weight over the other are already part of a Ford vs. Chevy side. In other words, they are already Ford people or Chevy people, but are just looking for those kinds of performance figures to justify their siding with whichever company.

I think the battle for new blood will be won with price, looks, and interior quality. This is especially true of the lower tier models. The most ergonomic car will win.

 

[Venari]

Are you honestly saying a performance car enthusiast would look at a diesel sports car? The diesel that are sold right now are small cars, family cars, or trucks, not sports car.

BMW 330D Coupe? Audi A5 TD? Or, even, come to think of it, the three-times Le Mans overall victor, the Audi R8 TDi (and its cousin, the road going R8 TDi concept car?)

I've considered purchasing a Mustang before - to modify to improve handling, and give it a bit of extra pep - maybe even a supercharger kit. I just stop every time because it's nowhere near as attractive a car as A) the concept or B) it should be in absolute terms. Only the early fastbacks, '68 especially, are good looking cars to me. Everything else with a Mustang badge was a bit meh. If a new Mustang has IRS and a total reskin, I'd consider one. But it'll have to be amazing to sway my personal preference for the Camaro.

 

[Tornado]

The GT500 will murder the new SS.

I don't get this attitude, as it doesn't hold water when one looks at the statistics the new Camaro will have. And that is only talking acceleration, completely ignoring how the GT500 is pretty much synonymous with front heavy snow plow when it comes to handling.

V6 is a dead heat so long as Ford puts the new 3.5L in as the base Mustang engine.

I see you didn't stay objective for long:

On the V6 front, the Mustang is already lighter despite using an iron block motor, and will only get LIGHTER when Ford swaps in the 3.5L. Even if it only gets 275bhp, it'll still be quicker than the Camaro.

Lastly, what in heck is Chevrolet going to do about the GT500? Sit there and watch?

Why should GM be envious of the GT500?

Lastly... The Camaro isn't god in corners as is evidenced by it only besting the Cobalt SS by 2 seconds on the 'Ring despite the 'Ring having massively power-hungry sections.

Or, perhaps the Cobalt is just stonking fast? It outran a Cayman S for cripes sake.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Or, perhaps the Cobalt is just stonking fast? It outran a Cayman S for cripes sake.

And it also beat/match an E46 M3. For a car I've heard nothing but bad things about, it seems to be pretty good.

Edit: Again though, Nürburgring lap times are a load of crap, I was just looking at records, and an NSX-R (NA2) can supposedly beat a:
Audi R8
E92 M3
911 Turbo
CTS-V
CLK 63 Black Series

Did I mention my name was Sir Jack Brabham?

 

[Leonidae]

No, you didn't but NSX-R is about half a ton lighter than any of those cars. that evens out the odds by a mile.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

No, you didn't but NSX-R is about half a ton lighter than any of those cars. that evens out the odds by a mile.

I still doubt that 280 PS could ever beat over 400hp in an M3 for Pete's sake. Obviously the 911 Turbo is an extremely capable car, with much more power than the NSX and possibly even better handling, so unless NA2 NSX-Rs had lots of downforce I don't see how that's realistically possible without huge driver error margins.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Really? I had no idea Americans were the only car buyers in the world, silly me.

He actually said the opposite.

EDIT: @ nd 4 holden spd: You'd be very surprised at how quick the NSX is.

(kind of how the GT-R is so quick despite the weight disadvantage.)

 

[YSSMAN]

Why would GM bother though? As I've said it would be marketing suicide for them with the car. I have no issues with diesel engines but many other people do, especially the type of person who would be interested in a Camaro.

They may not in the United States... That's the key here.

Remember: The Camaro is GM's new global 2+2 Coupe that will quite literally be sold everywhere. They're going to have to make some concessions in some markets to make sure that people buy them, and to that extent, he is exactly right. Without some kind of diesel option, GM is going to miss out on a huge amount of market share, "history" be damned.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

He actually said the opposite.

EDIT: @ nd 4 holden spd: You'd be very surprised at how quick the NSX is.

(kind of how the GT-R is so quick despite the weight disadvantage.)

I know the NSX is surprisingly quick for its power, but surely it couldn't beat a 911 Turbo- it can't, I've seen it race one at Fuji Speedway, and it gets beaten, quite badly.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I know the NSX is surprisingly quick for its power, but surely it couldn't beat a 911 Turbo- it can't, I've seen it race one at Fuji Speedway, and it gets beaten, quite badly.

Fuji =/= The 'Ring.

Fuji is a smooth, high-speed power course and the amount of time to be gained and lost down the MASSIVE front stretch is huge in comparison to the number of corners.

That said, the NSX wouldn't need to be more than 1-2mph faster through each corner on the 'Ring on average to make up for its power deficit in the high-speed sections.


I'd be willing to bet that the Cobalt SS gets its ass handed to it at Fuji vs the 'Maro SS too, despite the Camaro being slower through corners.

 

[NLxAROSA]

They may not in the United States... That's the key here.

Remember: The Camaro is GM's new global 2+2 Coupe that will quite literally be sold everywhere. They're going to have to make some concessions in some markets to make sure that people buy them, and to that extent, he is exactly right. Without some kind of diesel option, GM is going to miss out on a huge amount of market share, "history" be damned.

In Europe, it's exactly the other way around compared to the USA: diesels are very popular here and most people won't even consider a car or brand if it doesn't have any diesel engines. Diesel technology has advanced to a point where it's hard to hear if an engine is a diesel or not, hence it has become popular here in convertibles as well, which used to be unheard of! Add to that the huge amounts of torque, the fact that it runs cheaper and prices for diesel are also lower (at least for now ). The market for huge gas-guzzling engines is diminishing rapidly, especially since those cars (and their use) are taxed extra in a lot of European countries.
That said: I doubt that people that can afford a gas-guzzling car mind about gas prices or extra taxes.

 

[Joey D]

He actually said the opposite.

Sarcasm?

They may not in the United States... That's the key here.

Remember: The Camaro is GM's new global 2+2 Coupe that will quite literally be sold everywhere. They're going to have to make some concessions in some markets to make sure that people buy them, and to that extent, he is exactly right. Without some kind of diesel option, GM is going to miss out on a huge amount of market share, "history" be damned.

Yes I understand it's global but why bother with diesels in sports cars? Wouldn't it make more sense to put a diesel in something like the G8? Look as I've already said I have no problem with diesel engines and I really don't care if they put one in the Camaro. I have no desire to see the Camaro stick to it's roots, you know I want to see a 2.0T model.

I just really don't think the world wide clientèle that would be interested in a Camaro really wants a diesel in the car, or even a 2.0T engine for that matter.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I just really don't think the world wide clientèle that would be interested in a Camaro really wants a diesel in the car, or even a 2.0T engine for that matter.

And I think that is exactly what GM also thinks. Or Ford for that matter: the Mustang might have been a huge hit in Europe if they put the 2.5T engine from the Focus ST in it.

 

[Tornado]

I just really don't think the world wide clientèle that would be interested in a Camaro really wants a diesel in the car, or even a 2.0T engine for that matter.

But it may have the effect of bringing in people who wouldn't have been interested due to fuel milage. Remember, in some European countries diesel is even cheaper than petrol, so that helps too. And if they make a good diesel, the car would probably drive like a big block muscle car from the 60s (lots of torque, no revs, meh handling) that Europeans seem to love so much.

 

[YSSMAN]

If they shove the stump-pulling 4.5L unit it will bring back memories of the old 396 Camaro SS models. All torque, too heavy on the nose, notchy manual shift gearbox. But, it seems more likely that we'd have a diesel V6 anyway...

My guess is that until we know the official fuel mileage figures on the Camaro, matched with the quick reduction in sales of big SUVs, GM may put the fuel-saving stuff on the shelf for a bit... That is, if the Cobalt XFE and VUE Two-Mode will shave off some figures for a while.

 

[McLaren]

I still doubt that 280 PS could ever beat over 400hp in an M3 for Pete's sake. Obviously the 911 Turbo is an extremely capable car, with much more power than the NSX and possibly even better handling, so unless NA2 NSX-Rs had lots of downforce I don't see how that's realistically possible without huge driver error margins.

That's because it isn't exactly 280PS. It's probably around 315Hp. Either way, it is that fast. When Honda built the 2nd gen. NSX-R, they introduced a suspension & braking setup that was incredibly superior to many cars. The brakes & suspension of the car are to thank.
But, if you're going to knock the NSX-R just because it doesn't have 400Hp, you might as well be criticizing the M3 CSL. 360PS got it to 7:50, 4 seconds faster than a CLK DTM AMG, and only 1 second behind a Z06.


Speaking of the 'Ring times, though, it seems a ZR1 fanboy hates the GT-R so much, that they have removed it & others' times from the Wikipedia article, citing the GT-R did not start/stop at the same points among other ludicrous excuses. And they have put the Ariel Atom & Radical at the bottom in another list because the cars are not road legal.

Now, excuse me if I'm wrong, but I thought both these cars were road legal in Europe.

 

[Leonidae]

^now that is just sad..

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

That's because it isn't exactly 280PS. It's probably around 315Hp. Either way, it is that fast. When Honda built the 2nd gen. NSX-R, they introduced a suspension & braking setup that was incredibly superior to many cars. The brakes & suspension of the car are to thank.
But, if you're going to knock the NSX-R just because it doesn't have 400Hp, you might as well be criticizing the M3 CSL. 360PS got it to 7:50, 4 seconds faster than a CLK DTM AMG, and only 1 second behind a Z06.


Speaking of the 'Ring times, though, it seems a ZR1 fanboy hates the GT-R so much, that they have removed it & others' times from the Wikipedia article, citing the GT-R did not start/stop at the same points among other ludicrous excuses. And they have put the Ariel Atom & Radical at the bottom in another list because the cars are not road legal.

Now, excuse me if I'm wrong, but I thought both these cars were road legal in Europe.

I haven't got a problem with the "smaller than" power level of the NSX, I just wondered how it could beat something like a 911 Turbo with much less. (Even if it really had more power than factory stated).

Enough of the Ring times crap though, this is the Zeta thread.

 

[YSSMAN]

Their little talk on Top Gear last night about the Camaro was classic. Jeremy rants and raves about how Americans "can never get it right," James stays quiet, and Richard continues his unquestioned love-affair with all things big and otherwise V8-powered. I look forward to some kind of Top Gear test of the car in the near-future.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I was reading the Motor Trend article and it seems that only the V6 model will get a rear decklid spoiler with the RS package. That's a bit weird.

 

[harrytuttle]

This was a piece of the car's design from the get-go, and as far as I can read, GM had no intention of having it be a functional piece whatsoever. Its more for style, and that's about it. Although, it was smaller on the concept car...

Yeah, but I just can't get past the "those who know..." part. It just looks...asinine. Pet peeve of mine. Sorry.

Um, where is your evidence this device increases drag? I find it highly unlikely that any form of styling in this area would significantly affect drag. Look on the back of every Aston Martin, there's a fake diffuser on those too. It does actually somewhat tidy the airflow on those cars, simply because the underside of the car is plated with undertrays making airflow under the car relatively smooth. AML mount transmission coolers in that area, and as such they spend a lot of time developing the surfaces to flow air in a tidy fashion, but they don't 'diffuse' air like a racecar does. All roadcars at at least 4" too high for that anyway.

There is a significant difference between the diffuser on the DBS and the Camaro. The Aston Martin's diffuser is preceeded by a very flat and smooth undertray, and the diffuser -- while not quite as severe or as large as that on the 430 Scuderia, for example -- does actually help smooth the airflow transition.

The Camaro, on the other hand, has no such undertray, which means the 'diffuser' obviously has nothing to attach to. It ends up protruding into the airflow below the car. A bumper that does this slows air speed, increasing dynamic pressure, which in turn increases lift from under the car. This results in true irony: the element designed to imply positive rear downforce ends up creating its opposite.

GM will certainly have worked in the aero chambers to figure out what this styled area of the car is doing in terms of airflow, again, probably not to 'diffuse', just to make sure that the part isn't going to fall off or flex in the airflow.

Right: not fall off when high air pressure builds up against it.

Iincreasing drag? I'd like to see the evidence.

Um, common sense? A keen eye? A little knowledge of basic aerodynamics? I don't think we need full CFD to think this one through.

Edit: Again though, Nürburgring lap times are a load of crap, I was just looking at records, and an NSX-R (NA2) can supposedly beat a:
Audi R8
E92 M3
911 Turbo
CTS-V
CLK 63 Black Series

A relatively lightweight, mid-engined, low Cd car beats out heavier, stodgier cars on a race track? Blasphemy!

Their little talk on Top Gear last night about the Camaro was classic. Jeremy rants and raves about how Americans "can never get it right," James stays quiet, and Richard continues his unquestioned love-affair with all things big and otherwise V8-powered. I look forward to some kind of Top Gear test of the car in the near-future.

What exactly did Clarkson say "wasn't right"?