Zeta News 2.0: New VF Commodore and Chevrolet SS

[McLaren]

You seem to forget two very important facts. The FR 500C Mustang and the Roush Mustang--both perform outstanding on a track and (the Roush) would eat the Camaro alive quite easily.

FR 500C:

Ok, no offense mate, but of course it will. This is dedicated track car. The one in your top picture is even more race oriented, but the FR500C is a Mustang built for racing in the FIA GT4 league. The top one is also just below a FR500 in the GT3 league.

 

[TopHat]

What he meant was that the Mustang is more than capable on a track, and that the Rousch would "eat the Camaro alive". Not that the FR500s compete with the Camaro in any way.

 

[McLaren]

What he meant was that the Mustang is more than capable on a track, and that the Rousch would "eat the Camaro alive". Not that the FR500s compete with the Camaro in any way.

More capable than what, though? Previous Camaros or the new ones?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I do not doubt the prowess of the current Mustang GT against the V6 Camaro, it will be a very interesting race. The problem is that the weight difference is little more than 100 lbs, and given the power similarities and the extra cog in the Camaro's gearbox, I'd give it the early advantage... Particularly with the "fancy" suspension (not to say that the LRA is a "slouch" by any means either).

Why, oh why are you touting an extra gear as a massive advantage on track?

It's not. At ALL. Well, at least not the way Ford and GM gear their cars from the factory.

When 5th will take you to 160+, there's no need for 6th on any track. The T56 and 3650 are almost the same 1st-5th in terms of spacing, both have 1:1 4th gears, etc.

So unless Chevy runs 4.30 gears or something more insane, there won't be much advantage there (or if they use the close ratio .62 6th T56, but even then, there's no difference until 5th).


So long as the Mustang gets 400hp within the next few years, it'll do FINE against the 'Maro and quite possibly be more popular in the hands of enthusiasts. The 8.8" live rear won't break (at least not without a GOOD amount of power going through it), won't wheelhop, and is overall superior for drag racing. If you want to go road racing, the Mustang is still lighter, and IRS setups can be bought.

Now watch Ford bloat the Mustang a few hundred pounds and negate every advantage it has. >.< And add that awful grill they're so fond of to it.

 

[YSSMAN]

See what I mean on those 18" steelies! They're freakin' awesome!

====

Why, oh why are you touting an extra gear as a massive advantage on track?

Who said anything about track performance? As we saw with the G8 GT versus the SRT-8 Charger, the lack of power was essentially made up for with the extra cog in the gearbox and the slightest of weight advantages. Assuming that a similar system is applied again for the Camaro, I'm predicting a dead-heat between them. More gears helps the acceleration just a bit, not to mention the obvious increases in fuel economy.

Day-to-day driving and the occasional red light race is critical to the success of the Camaro against the Mustang and Challenger. Program a slushbox right or make the gears the proper width with the stick, they're going to make the pony car wars very interesting indeed.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Who said anything about track performance? As we saw with the G8 GT versus the SRT-8 Charger, the lack of power was essentially made up for with the extra cog in the gearbox and the slightest of weight advantages. Assuming that a similar system is applied again for the Camaro, I'm predicting a dead-heat between them. More gears helps the acceleration just a bit, not to mention the obvious increases in fuel economy.

Day-to-day driving and the occasional red light race is critical to the success of the Camaro against the Mustang and Challenger. Program a slushbox right or make the gears the proper width with the stick, they're going to make the pony car wars very interesting indeed.

Not quite the same scenario there, Brad (G8 GT v SRT-8).

Ratios on the G8's 6-speed box:

I = 4.03, II = 2.36, III = 1.53, IV = 1.15, V = 0.85, VI = 0.67,, Diff = 2.92

SRT-8/RT Charger:

1: 3.59 2: 2.19 3: 1.41 4: 1.00 5: 0.83 Diff: 3.06


In this case, it's a difference of gearing really. The G8 will get an early run (provided grip is there) but the Charger will reel it in thanks to the greater power.

Quarter times and traps:

Charger:
13.5 sec @ 106.3 mph

G8:
13.8 sec @ 102.8 mph

Of note, the G8 is 3 tenths quicker to 30mph than the Charger, but despite that, the Charger does indeed outrun it.


Now then... The Mustang V Camaro deal is a bit different at least on the stick side of things.

Ratios are nearly identical until 5th between the Mustang's 3650 and the average T56/TR6060, and I doubt there's going to be much difference in the final drive. Therefore, pull through the first few gears will be equal (just depends on what gets the better launch really) as well as overall performance. Well, highway fuel econ will go to the 'Maro.

Thing is, if the Mustang is going to keep a 5-speed, it won't be the 3650. The TKO might happen, but that said, it's not much cheaper than the T56s. So I can't see a Mustang with more power without a six-speed in the first place.

The (presumably) 3.5L, 265-270hp six will most likely soldier on with the TR3650 however.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

That particular Roush (that I posted first ) is the 420RE, which actually has 430hp and 385 ft-lbs torque (thanks to a Roush roots-type blower) but no IRS, just a stiffened LRA, not to mention a Tremec TR3650 5-speed gearbox with a Roush quick shift.

Well let's wait and see what the aftermarket does with the Camaro before pointing out aftermarket Mustangs that will beat the stock Camaro.

Why, oh why are you touting an extra gear as a massive advantage on track?

It's not. At ALL. Well, at least not the way Ford and GM gear their cars from the factory.

When 5th will take you to 160+, there's no need for 6th on any track. The T56 and 3650 are almost the same 1st-5th in terms of spacing, both have 1:1 4th gears, etc.

So unless Chevy runs 4.30 gears or something more insane, there won't be much advantage there (or if they use the close ratio .62 6th T56, but even then, there's no difference until 5th).


So long as the Mustang gets 400hp within the next few years, it'll do FINE against the 'Maro and quite possibly be more popular in the hands of enthusiasts. The 8.8" live rear won't break (at least not without a GOOD amount of power going through it), won't wheelhop, and is overall superior for drag racing. If you want to go road racing, the Mustang is still lighter, and IRS setups can be bought.

Now watch Ford bloat the Mustang a few hundred pounds and negate every advantage it has. >.< And add that awful grill they're so fond of to it.

If the ratios are similar through the first 5 gears, the extra gear won't mean crap, but having the extra gear means you can gear them shorter (therefore multiplying torque at the wheels), and still have the same top speed/highway cruise revs. If Chevy do the 6spd right, it will give it a clean cut advantage.

Not quite the same scenario there, Brad (G8 GT v SRT-8).

Ratios on the G8's 6-speed box:

I = 4.03, II = 2.36, III = 1.53, IV = 1.15, V = 0.85, VI = 0.67,, Diff = 2.92

SRT-8/RT Charger:

1: 3.59 2: 2.19 3: 1.41 4: 1.00 5: 0.83 Diff: 3.06


In this case, it's a difference of gearing really. The G8 will get an early run (provided grip is there) but the Charger will reel it in thanks to the greater power.

Quarter times and traps:

Charger:
13.5 sec @ 106.3 mph

G8:
13.8 sec @ 102.8 mph

Of note, the G8 is 3 tenths quicker to 30mph than the Charger, but despite that, the Charger does indeed outrun it.


Now then... The Mustang V Camaro deal is a bit different at least on the stick side of things.

Ratios are nearly identical until 5th between the Mustang's 3650 and the average T56/TR6060, and I doubt there's going to be much difference in the final drive. Therefore, pull through the first few gears will be equal (just depends on what gets the better launch really) as well as overall performance. Well, highway fuel econ will go to the 'Maro.

Thing is, if the Mustang is going to keep a 5-speed, it won't be the 3650. The TKO might happen, but that said, it's not much cheaper than the T56s. So I can't see a Mustang with more power without a six-speed in the first place.

The (presumably) 3.5L, 265-270hp six will most likely soldier on with the TR3650 however.

If GT5 has modelled the gearing correctly 3rd-5th in the Mustang is pathetic, and the biggest downfall of the car, makes it feel like driving a bus. The gears will really help the V6 Camaro get up and go (as the V6s get even shorter ratios than the V8 Camaros.) It will be surely interesting, I personally can't wait to hear (presumably through you guys) about the comparos when they come out.

 

[YSSMAN]

Thing is, if the Mustang is going to keep a 5-speed, it won't be the 3650. The TKO might happen, but that said, it's not much cheaper than the T56s. So I can't see a Mustang with more power without a six-speed in the first place.

The (presumably) 3.5L, 265-270hp six will most likely soldier on with the TR3650 however.

I'm under the impression that the Mustang will go to a six-speed gearset for all of their cars come 2010, that is, unless Ford poops out on us. It seems illogical to not go with it, especially when they're already offering that many cogs in most of their other cars. Although, come to think of it, I don't think they have a slushbox that can take it (yet), as for the stick, it'll be interesting to see if they pick up a T56/M10 variant.

 

[Tornado]

And the old Cobra was quite quick on a track too depsite its LRA.

Ah yes, the livest rear axle I ever did see.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Ah yes, the livest rear axle I ever did see.

1996-1998 Cobras were no slouch on a road course either

Just not as ballsy as the 03-04 cars.

 

[JCE]

Ok, no offense mate, but of course it will. This is dedicated track car. The one in your top picture is even more race oriented, but the FR500C is a Mustang built for racing in the FIA GT4 league. The top one is also just below a FR500 in the GT3 league.

Well my point was geared towards the fact that Mustangs can and are quite capable on a track. You can get the same suspension from the FR in the Roush stage 2-3. And as Clarkson said it handles brilliant with a good suspension and brakes.

What he meant was that the Mustang is more than capable on a track, and that the Rousch would "eat the Camaro alive". Not that the FR500s compete with the Camaro in any way.

+1 I'd love to see a race-spec Camaro versus the race-spec Mustang. I'd probably get aroused.

More capable than what, though? Previous Camaros or the new ones?

Either, it doesn't matter.

Ah yes, the livest rear axle I ever did see.

I thought the Cobra R was the one with the IRS, the regular Cobra had it too? *edit*Researched and yes it does indeed have IRS across the entire 99-04 Cobra range. That'd be why it is godly on a track too.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1999-2000-2001-2002-2003-2004-ford-mustang3.htm

This makes me want an 03-04 Cobra even more...god why can't I have money!!!!!!!

*edit*
And once again I turn another unrelated topic towards the 03-04 Cobra. I wonder how many on this forum I've done this to. Can someone love a car this much?

 

[Tornado]

Don't worry. The 99+ Cobra was a great car, in many ways far superior to the cars that replaced it.

 

[JCE]

Don't worry. The 99+ Cobra was a great car, in many ways far superior to the cars that replaced it.

Other than the design of the new Mustang the previous gen Cobra was and will be the best Mustang since the late 60's and very early 70's. The GT500 is a complete and utter joke compared to the 03-04 Cobra. The GT500 had looks and noise--everything else is rubbish for what it is. The Cobra was the real deal. Could you imagine if the Roush or Saleen had an IRS how just pure brilliant it would be? The fact that the Camaro will have an IRS is mindbogglingly sweet, its just way too heavy and the V8 is a weak power producer.

So here's the question, with all the CAFE regs will the Camaro be choked and restrained to the gutless 422bhp output from a 6.2L V8 engine? Will GM infact make a super high powered 500bhp+ monster? Or will GM continue to be retarded and not bring out anything to compete with the Corvette? *cough*GNX/T-Type/GTA/Typhoon/Syclone*cough*

 

[Tornado]

I could see a LS7 Camaro in the future, honestly. There is pricing room for it.

 

[JCE]

I could see a LS7 Camaro in the future, honestly. There is pricing room for it.

But, will GM allow it to compete with the Corvette by giving that engine in the Camaro over 500bhp? I mean the LS7 produces (a putrid amount for its displacement) slighly over 500bhp and 470tq--will GM keep that or go more with the Camaro knowing it will steal Corvette and or ZO6 sales? Because it will steal its sales most definately if it has 500 or more bhp.

 

[Tornado]

I don't think that will be the case. The final generation Camaro was practically identical in weight and power, and the Camaro cost about a dozen grand less; and it didn't steal Corvette sales. I doubt that the 3800 pound, likely-far-slower-than-the-Z06 Camaro will steal too many C6 sales for the same reasoning.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

So here's the question, with all the CAFE regs will the Camaro be choked and restrained to the gutless 422bhp output from a 6.2L V8 engine?

Gutless? You're just obsessed with power.

 

[JCE]

Gutless? You're just obsessed with power.

I'm German what do you expect?

 

[buickgnx88]

I took that long-ass survey being honest on every answer. And the following I took screens of...

So you don't like the SS moniker even though it was probably one of the most popular models on the original? The stock steelies are probably the coolest ones on a car in this day and age.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I'm under the impression that the Mustang will go to a six-speed gearset for all of their cars come 2010, that is, unless Ford poops out on us. It seems illogical to not go with it, especially when they're already offering that many cogs in most of their other cars. Although, come to think of it, I don't think they have a slushbox that can take it (yet), as for the stick, it'll be interesting to see if they pick up a T56/M10 variant.

Points to 6spd in FPV models handling over 310kw and 550Nm.

Other than the design of the new Mustang the previous gen Cobra was and will be the best Mustang since the late 60's and very early 70's. The GT500 is a complete and utter joke compared to the 03-04 Cobra. The GT500 had looks and noise--everything else is rubbish for what it is. The Cobra was the real deal. Could you imagine if the Roush or Saleen had an IRS how just pure brilliant it would be? The fact that the Camaro will have an IRS is mindbogglingly sweet, its just way too heavy and the V8 is a weak power producer.

So here's the question, with all the CAFE regs will the Camaro be choked and restrained to the gutless 422bhp output from a 6.2L V8 engine? Will GM infact make a super high powered 500bhp+ monster? Or will GM continue to be retarded and not bring out anything to compete with the Corvette? *cough*GNX/T-Type/GTA/Typhoon/Syclone*cough*

Really? 422hp weak? Wow, that's surprising.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Really? 422hp weak? Wow, that's surprising.

422HP is ofcourse top notch.....coming from a 4.2L engine. I expect more from a 6.2L engine. (Though I would love to own the new Camaro with that engine in it )

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

422HP is ofcourse top notch.....coming from a 4.2L engine. I expect more from a 6.2L engine. (Though I would love to own the new Camaro with that engine in it )

Who cares how much damn power they get from a given displacement, sheesh. The M3's engine is far more highly strung than an LS3. Just means that if you wanted mods the LS3 has more potential. I'm sick of hearing "Oh, it's not a very good power figure for >6L of displacement".

 

[YSSMAN]

So here's the question, with all the CAFE regs will the Camaro be choked and restrained to the gutless 422bhp output from a 6.2L V8 engine? Will GM infact make a super high powered 500bhp+ monster? Or will GM continue to be retarded and not bring out anything to compete with the Corvette? *cough*GNX/T-Type/GTA/Typhoon/Syclone*cough*

Wait, "gutless," what the hell are you talking about? I'd say that "gutless" would be a 5.0L V8 with less than 200 BHP. Its the same engine that is offered in the Corvette, down only eight BHP, and I'm not about to complain. I was actually pleasantly surprised when they ended up giving it more BHP than the G8 GXP.

As for the anticipated hyper-Camaro, it seems most-logical for a ZL1 to happen at some point with the LS7. Granted, the LS7 will eventually be left to die because of the LSA/LS9, I think it could find a new and otherwise happy home in the Camaro. My guess is that the turbocharged I4 will likely happen (good for 260-300 BHP), but as for a forced-induction V6, I doubt it. The small-block program is too good, they won't ditch the V8 now that they're throwing cylinder deactivation, variable valve timing and flex-fuels on all of them.

====

422HP is ofcourse top notch.....coming from a 4.2L engine. I expect more from a 6.2L engine.

Blah blah blah, right right. I'm in agreement that the engine sizes need to come down a bit, but don't get me wrong, they're pretty efficent and its proven technology. I can't complain too much, I'll take the flat power curve of the Chevy versus a comparable foreign engine with a peaky 4.0L powerplant.

The good news: GM is supposed to be taking the small-block back down to the 5.0/5.3/5.7L range across the board. They haven't said for sure, but with direct injection, they're managing to pull off well over 400 BHP with little modification on their current 5.3L engines.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I'm sick of hearing "Oh, it's not a very good power figure for >6L of displacement".

Well, get used to it, because it's not a good power figure for a 6.2L engine anymore. And I guess you completely missed my remark about actually wanting to have one of those sitting in my garage. 👎

Because I feel those US muscle cars have several major advantages over their more advanced European cousins: cheaper (both to buy and to maintain, especially if you don't buy a new one) and they're a lot more comfortable than those European ultra-hard suspension cars. And you don't see them a lot over here in Europe, which is nice if you want to stand out. (Though not as rare as Holdens ) And you're definitely right about the tuning potential, slap a couple of turbo's on the 6.2L and I'm pretty sure you can get more power from it than from a 4.2L.

For comparison: a new BMW M3 will set me back 100K in Euro's, the new Camaro will probably sell for around 60K or so, assuming it will be around the price of a Charger SRT-8 (which is also a very cool car BTW). And you really don't want to know what BMW charges for its spare parts. The fuel consumption will be about the same I guess. Though it actually might be lower for the Camaro if it uses the MDS system. Does anybody know that?

But the Camaro 6.2L is high on my wishlist when I'm tired of the 350Z. Should be relatively cheap in a year or two. BTW, I would have bought a Mustang GT instead of the 350Z if a decent 2nd hand one was available in the Netherlands, which unfortunately, there was not at that moment.

Summarizing: I do love the muscle cars, I just think those large engines are a dying breed.

 

[Tornado]

Summarizing: I do love the muscle cars, I just think those large engines are a dying breed.

That depends on what Germany says. Remember, Mercedes has been making muscle cars since the 80s.

They haven't said for sure, but with direct injection, they're managing to pull off well over 400 BHP with little modification on their current 5.3L engines.

And if they figure out a way to get VVT on them like Chrysler did with the Hemi, we could have 500 horsepower 345 cubers.

 

[NLxAROSA]

The AMG versions surely qualify as muscle cars. But they have one drawback: for the price of one AMG version I can buy three US muscle cars (or more ) I know what I would rather have.

 

[Tornado]

Of course: C63 AMG.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Or the SL 63 AMG. But in that case, I would rather have the Camaro and a new house.

 

[Tornado]

Houses are overrated, as the seats in the SL most likely recline.

 

[YSSMAN]

And if they figure out a way to get VVT on them like Chrysler did with the Hemi, we could have 500 horsepower 345 cubers.

To be honest, I think they've got VVT on the L76. They've got it on Vortec Max as well. Its been working out well, but not well enough for them to spread it around to everyone. We're due to see the next-gen small block soon, so, we'll see what happens.