Zeta News 2.0: New VF Commodore and Chevrolet SS

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What exactly did Clarkson say "wasn't right"?

He didn't say anything overtly negative towards the Camaro other than "its American" and "its a Vauxhall VXR8 underneath." Hes not sold, but I wouldn't expect him to be. Oh, and he scoffed at the fact that we had to go to the Australians for help on it (I laughed pretty hard at that one too).
 
A relatively lightweight, mid-engined, low Cd car beats out heavier, stodgier cars on a race track? Blasphemy!

A lightweight, mid-engined car, beats a lightweight, mid-engined car with more power/rear engined lightweight car with more power? Aycorumba!:lol:
 
Can someone please remind me when we are expecting the Alpha platform? I thought 2010, but we haven't seen a single mule yet, and it's only 2 years away.
 
A lightweight, mid-engined car, beats a lightweight, mid-engined car with more power/rear engined lightweight car with more power? Aycorumba!:lol:
The only Porsche that ever handled anywhere near the level of the NSX while the NSX was sold was the 996 GT3. Perhaps the 911 GT1, but that doesn't count for obvious reasons. And the Audi R8 is a very good car, but it also is no lightweight (also being a softer car than the NSX-R was).
 
Can someone please remind me when we are expecting the Alpha platform? I thought 2010, but we haven't seen a single mule yet, and it's only 2 years away.

Calendar year 2010, probably. The magazines/websites here keep saying that we could expect our first Alpha car (the Pontiac G6) in late 2009 at the earliest... My guess, probably, as a "concept" car.
 
There is a significant difference between the diffuser on the DBS and the Camaro. The Aston Martin's diffuser is preceeded by a very flat and smooth undertray, and the diffuser -- while not quite as severe or as large as that on the 430 Scuderia, for example -- does actually help smooth the airflow transition.

Hm. Now, the Scuderia, I couldn't comment on, I've not got under the back of one. Come to think of it, I'm (we're) making huge assumptions about the Camaro.

However, the DBS, I can comment on. It does have undertrays, yes. I'm not entirely certain this is relevant. The rear valance is not a particularly effective diffusing element, and nor am I aware that it was designed to be one. In order to achieve what a racecar diffuser achieves, there has to be a very carefully calculated (and computationally modelled) form which allows the air to slow down without separation, thus lowering pressure under the rear of the car and creating a net downforce. There's a big gap after the flat undertray where the rear subframe is, which has a polypropylene cover which lots of venting in it to attempt to manage the hot air above it created by the transmission and air passing backwards down the 'spine' of the car from engine bay and the closely channelled exhaust system. Part of the rear near the rear valance (I'm fairly certain) has a big void and some tunnels for the transmission cooler, but I'll check tomorrow.

However, since you're interested, I'll ask the guys (uh, actually, might be girl) in aero about the aerodyanamic nature of the valance and see what she/they say. :)

The Camaro, on the other hand, has no such undertray, which means the 'diffuser' obviously has nothing to attach to. It ends up protruding into the airflow below the car. A bumper that does this slows air speed, increasing dynamic pressure, which in turn increases lift from under the car. This results in true irony: the element designed to imply positive rear downforce ends up creating its opposite.

At risk of repeating myself, no, seriously:

Iincreasing drag? I'd like to see the evidence.

Um, common sense? A keen eye? A little knowledge of basic aerodynamics? :odd: I don't think we need full CFD to think this one through.

I beg to differ. McLaren's 1976 F1 car (the MP19, I think) turned from a perfectly balanced race car into a complete pig midway through the season. No-one had any idea why until someone realised that as part of the engine cooling development, they had repositioned some oil coolers, moving them by 6 inches. This was enough to wreck the aerodynamic balance of the car. They moved them to their original position, and the car's sweet handling was restored.

Airflow is nine parts scientific study and one part black magic. You have to do the modelling to see what happens, and very often what you see in the tunnel isn't what you get in the field.

In the early- to mid-sixties, GM were in a lawsuit nightmare brought about by Ralph Nader and the Corvair. GM made it their goal to become the best chassis, suspension, tyre dynamics and aerodynamics people in the business, and gave a small team of engineers and 'car-guy' lawyers a blank chequebook and as much experimental time and Milford Proving Ground resource as they needed. Aside from completely exonerating the Corvair in 'normal driving circumstances' (and an admittance that under certain 'emergency' manoeuvers, the car could be made to 'tuck-under') one of the corollaries of this was, coincidentally, the original 1967 Camaro development including some of the earliest 'modern' computational dynamics models, for fatigue stress analysis, suspension design, and aerodynamics. There wasn't much they could do to change the outcome, as the development programme was so rushed to chase down the Mustang, but GM poured cash into the analysis anyway - they didn't want a total pup on their hands. As it happens, the shape was remarkably balanced and aerodyanmically sound - the result a happy success. (They never really fixed the axle tramp though, that's one the computers didn't spot. ;))

Development on aerodynamic parts for the Camaro during this time also helped the Penske Team beat the Mustangs in the TransAm championships - due to an understanding of applied aerodynamics, suspenion ride & handling and tyre research. As well as a bit of luck and some vulpine cunning...

Another corollary was the extension of thie aerodynamic knowledge to the forfront of racing - something else happening within the umbrella of GM at the time was a Gran Turismo friend of ours, the Chaparral project. These cars were absolutely pioneering in the shaping of modern Le Mans prototype sportscars and application of aerodynamic aids. Not even Formula One were up to their level, and they watched the Chaparrals running and racing with awe and disregard for the science and knowledge - hence some pretty shoddy copies which subsequently got aero aids banned in their series. Chaparral's experimental nature, some trial and error along with some very innovative yet simple data gathering techniques, meant they were years ahead of the competition - and this knowledge found its way back to GM via Corvette and other more prosaic everyday cars including the Camaro. This team assisted in the Corvair investigation, making the language of 'oversteer' and 'understeer' so simple, even the US Government understood by the end of it.

We've digressed a tiny bit here. But my point is this: aerodynamics (or any vehicle dynamics, come to think of it) can't be done by armchair observation.

So, where is the evidence backing your original claim?
 
Calendar year 2010, probably. The magazines/websites here keep saying that we could expect our first Alpha car (the Pontiac G6) in late 2009 at the earliest... My guess, probably, as a "concept" car.

It sounds like the G6 will be an awesome car, a smaller RWD Pontiac would really comeplete their line-up. I'm more interested in Holden versions though.
 
Don't worry, the Holden Torana will be the lead car that Pontiac will likely just swap grilles with, just like the Commodore/G8.
 
Paraphrasing of my chat with an aerodynamics engineer at a certain car company about a certain car.

Q. Does the 'diffuser' rear valance actually do anything?

A. Yes.

Q. Does it provide downforce?

A. Yes, a little. Well, it does what it can...

Q. So, it's not like a racecar diffuser?

A. No. It is basically an air management tool, but it is very much part of a whole system - the splitter, the undertray panels, the duckbill spoiler - all primarily tuned to balance (or trim) the car's aerodynamics.

Q. Would the device work without the undertrays?

A. No.

Q. What would happen?

A. You'd probably get a flip and turbulence behind the car, which would in itself cause drag and possibly less negative lift - not as much downforce due to the undertray loss spoiling the underbody airflow. And the balance of the car would be lost.

Q. Would you get a high pressure build up behind the panel?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. Not enough total airflow under the car.
 
Don't worry, the Holden Torana will be the lead car that Pontiac will likely just swap grilles with, just like the Commodore/G8.

I don't ant a badge swapped Torana, if there's a badge swap it can't be a Torana, unless Holden did the design themselves, and let everyone else have it like the Monaro and Commodore, but from what I understand the Pontiac is coming first this time.

Paraphrasing of my chat with an aerodynamics engineer at a certain car company about a certain car.

So then it does have an effect, albeit small.
 
I'm disappointed that there isn't an RS or Z28 trim upon the launch. That loses points with me. Secondly, even with all the diet treatment it is still a heavy car by comparison to its rivals...minus the huge pig Challenger.

I'd still take the Mustang GT for performance per dollar here. There may be a 300bhp V6 Camaro with similar output to the GT but its heavier and frankly would never make a good enough noise when compaired to the Ford Modular V8. Plus, seems as though the Camaro is more of a style toy car than a serious sports car. Yes it looks good, yes it has large powerful engines, but it is too expensive and doesn't have very many models/trims. I'll reserve my final opinion when I drive one. I still feel disappointed somehow as a Camaro owner.

the kr is also more expensive than a z06. yuck.

as far as the camaros competition, i thought ford was bringing out its own 6+ liter v8 and IRS for the mustang by 2011. a year behind but im more concerned with how that will match up, rather than how the underperforming, overpriced shelbys match up. as for the challenger, its already dead. the bullit is just a tad slower to 60 and through the 1/4 mile, with 100 less horsepower and the 5 years old SVT cobra will match the srt8 in anything. itll be a ford/chevy game in a few years for sure.

The 2003/2004 SVT Cobra would wipe the floor with the following:
The new Camaro (all models)
The current Mustang (all models)
The new Mustang (probably all models)
Any non-Viper SRT Chrysler
And many many more.

Don't be fooled into thinking it has the "rated" 390bhp--when it actually dynos at the wheels at 380-390hp. Its faster than you think it is.

And the Cobra R with its (*cough*rated) 385bhp/385lb.ft. from the NA 5.4L should equally wipe the floor with the aformentioned cars.

Well, strictly speaking, the old SVT Cobra was faster than the GT500 as well, so that isn't quite fair.

And the old Cobra was quite quick on a track too depsite its LRA. Unlike the Corvette the Mustang openly admits to using this ancient technology because its what the buyers want because they are infact taking them drag racing. You want a track car? If you own the previous generation you install the Cobra R suspension (or the aftermarket IRS) , or in the current generation you install the Roush suspension.

I hope that nobody here honestly believes the Mustang will win around a track vs the Camaro. If the Mustang went IRS suspension it might stand a better chance, but then weight would go up, and with extra cogs in the gearbox weight will go up again. If the Mustang wants to seriously compete with the Camaro, it needs to be almost as heavy as it, and then it has nothing but Chev Small Block blocking its path to being a better all-rounder, which I doubt Ford is close to beating yet. (See: FPV GT vs HSV GTS). I honestly don't think the Mustang will beat the Camaro, unless it's at the drag strip, and it's still as crap as ever in corners.

You seem to forget two very important facts. The FR 500C Mustang and the Roush Mustang--both perform outstanding on a track and (the Roush) would eat the Camaro alive quite easily.

FR 500C:
Ford-Mustang-FR500S%5B1%5D.jpg

2005FordMustangFR500C_55Racecar2.jpg


Roush Mustang:
roush3.jpg
 
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Here is the problem, they're modified Mustangs that aren't sold from the factory. Chances are that Saleen will end up playing with the Camaro, not to mention your usual Camaro tuners like Berger Chevrolet, Dale Earnhardt Chevrolet, SLP and every other major Chevrolet tuner who makes parts for the small-block.

I do not doubt the prowess of the current Mustang GT against the V6 Camaro, it will be a very interesting race. The problem is that the weight difference is little more than 100 lbs, and given the power similarities and the extra cog in the Camaro's gearbox, I'd give it the early advantage... Particularly with the "fancy" suspension (not to say that the LRA is a "slouch" by any means either).

As for pricing, that's something no one can comment on. We're supposed to hear even more in September during the big Camaro rally down in Indianapolis, otherwise, we'll have to wait until Detroit 2009. I'm guessing a $25K start price on the V6, probably just shy of $30K for the SS. Word is that a Z/28 is coming later, but GM is split on how they want to do it. Lightweight, tighter suspension version of the SS (like it should be) or something that goes above it?

===

Either way, good to have you back!
 
I don't believe that's a true Roush JCE, due in part to there being the GT badge on the front fender, which the Roush doesn't have. Also the front bumper isn't the same along with the rear spoiler. Here's a real Roush:

roush3.jpg
 
Here is the problem, they're modified Mustangs that aren't sold from the factory. Chances are that Saleen will end up playing with the Camaro, not to mention your usual Camaro tuners like Berger Chevrolet, Dale Earnhardt Chevrolet, SLP and every other major Chevrolet tuner who makes parts for the small-block.

I do not doubt the prowess of the current Mustang GT against the V6 Camaro, it will be a very interesting race. The problem is that the weight difference is little more than 100 lbs, and given the power similarities and the extra cog in the Camaro's gearbox, I'd give it the early advantage... Particularly with the "fancy" suspension (not to say that the LRA is a "slouch" by any means either).

As for pricing, that's something no one can comment on. We're supposed to hear even more in September during the big Camaro rally down in Indianapolis, otherwise, we'll have to wait until Detroit 2009. I'm guessing a $25K start price on the V6, probably just shy of $30K for the SS. Word is that a Z/28 is coming later, but GM is split on how they want to do it. Lightweight, tighter suspension version of the SS (like it should be) or something that goes above it?

===

Either way, good to have you back!

Meh, the weight disadvantage the Camaro has really can't have it in the lead. Plus, technically the V6 Mustang should be the cannon fodder for the V6 Camaro and the GT should be cannon fodder for the SS. But, the real kicker is we'll have to wait and see when they get released and if Ford stuffs the EcoBoost 3.5L TT into the Mustang.

I still maintain due to the extra weight the Camaro actually is at a slight disadvantage if it is to compete withn the Mustang GT which seems to be what eveyone is making it out to be. Still, if that's the case I'll take the GT and its superior noise myself. MPG and transmission be damned I'll take the Mustang GT over a V6-anything Camaro.

Thanks, but I'm only partially back, my life's exploded and I'm living in a hotel with limited internet access.

I don't believe that's a true Roush JCE, due in part to there being the GT badge on the front fender, which the Roush doesn't have. Also the front bumper isn't the same along with the rear spoiler. Here's a real Roush:

roush3.jpg

Good eye, wasn't paying attention. I'm very tired.
 
JCE
But, the real kicker is we'll have to wait and see when they get released and if Ford stuffs the EcoBoost 3.5L TT into the Mustang.

Sorry you haven't been around, but word is, they're going to do an SVO Mustang with the EcoBoost 2.0L and a little over 300 BHP, leaving room for the GT to go SS-hunting with something over 400 BHP. I'm all for the SVO return, and quite honestly, unless they do something similar with the Camaro, I'd have the Ford over the V6 RS.
 
SVO making a comeback? Whoa, now that's a great idea. The old SVO's performed almost as well as the GT's of that era. I think it would be fantastic to do a new SVO and then stick the new Boss 302 in the GT and then we'd have ourselves a good old fashioned bar fight!
 
JCE
Don't be fooled into thinking it has the "rated" 390bhp--when it actually dynos at the wheels at 380-390hp. Its faster than you think it is.

no it isnt. unless it runs better than mid 12s. i used the example for exactly the reason you just described.
 
+1 to those being modified Mustangs (one with a huge wing for downforce), remember what downforce did for the Viper ACR? The Roush, there are so many Mustang variants (none of which are sold in Oz to remind me), what specs does that Roush have? That's the one with IRS and ~400hp is it?
 
no it isnt. unless it runs better than mid 12s. i used the example for exactly the reason you just described.

Yes it is. They are infact well known for being quite fast stock. And with little modification can get well into the 11s--which includes intake, exhuast, and a simple pulley change. The normal GT500 just doesn't stand a chance versus this thing...must less the new SS Camaro--period. Stock, normal unexperienced drivers get low 13s, and the magazines seem to average high 12s and low 13s. Skilled drivers can infact get mid 12s, I've seen at least two locally do it stock. One of which dyno'd at over 380whp stock. I'm sorry but these are just pure awsomeness. I would take it over the WS6 and ZO6 in a millisecond.

But for the record:
wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-generation_Ford_Mustang
In 2003, Ford updated the SN-95 Cobra for the last time. Internally known during its development as the "Terminator," this Cobra, under the direction of Special Vehicle Program Director, O. John Coletti, featured a cast iron supercharged DOHC 4.6 L V8. The Eaton supercharger and an air to water intercooler resulted in 390 horsepower (291 kW) and 390 ft·lbf (529 Nm) of torque, which is often argued to be an underrated figure. Ford replaced the 5-speed Tremec T-45 transmission with the heavier-duty 6-speed manual Tremec T-56, which was also found in the Dodge Viper, Chevrolet Corvette. From the factory, the 2003 to 2004 Cobras ran 1/4 miles in the high 12s to low 13s with trap speeds around 110 mph (180 km/h).[6][7]

Just accept the fact that the 2003/2004 Cobra was the hoss that it actually is and move on please. :sly:
 
The Roush, there are so many Mustang variants (none of which are sold in Oz to remind me), what specs does that Roush have? That's the one with IRS and ~400hp is it?

That particular Roush (that I posted first :P) is the 420RE, which actually has 430hp and 385 ft-lbs torque (thanks to a Roush roots-type blower) but no IRS, just a stiffened LRA, not to mention a Tremec TR3650 5-speed gearbox with a Roush quick shift.
 
JCE
skilled drivers can infact get mid 12s, I've seen at least two locally do it stock.


Just accept the fact that the 2003/2004 Cobra was the hoss that it actually is and move on please. :sly:

i SAID, "no it isnt. unless it runs better than mid 12s." meaning, i KNOW it runs mid 12s. we're on the same page!
 
WOULD YOU LIKE TO HELP DETERMINE THE FINAL PACKAGING OF THE CAMARO?

Team Camaro
Good afternoon, Camaro Comrades and Firebird Friends!

(and please feel free to share the following with your clubs and Camaro/Firebird friends!)

When looking at the new Camaro -- are you interested in the V6 or V8 engine? Do you seek the direct input of a manual transmission, or are you more comfortable with an automatic transmission? Will the Camaro be the car you drive every day, or just on weekends? When do you plan to purchase your new Camaro?

Now that the wraps have been taken off the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro, we would like your feedback on what features are important to you.

By clicking on the link below, you will be sent to a third party site -- MyProductAdvisor.com -- where your answers to various questions are collected and analyzed.

Note - you must access the site by this specific url. http://www.myproductadvisor.com/mpa/...y.do?refId=cs3

The process is pretty easy, but a little time consuming (plan to spend about 20 minutes answering questions). The site is split into a number of sections from "Auto Usage" to "Recommendations". These sections are dedicated to general automotive consumer research -- not just sport cars like Camaro but other cars and trucks (for example you’ll be asked questions on truck bed length, four cylinder engines, turning radius, etc.). We suggest you answer the questions on the site as if your mind is set on the Camaro (or like vehicle).

Please start the survey by clicking and answering a question on "Auto Usage." You have the option of answering all the applicable questions in each section (highly recommended), or just answering one question in "Auto Usage", and moving directly to "Recommendation" button on the right corner.

In this survey, the "Recommendation" button will not provide an automotive recommendation, but will start the second part of the survey which is dedicated just to Camaro. Once the "Recommendation" button is clicked, a picture of the 2010 Camaro will appear inviting you to link into the Camaro survey. The questions will include option descriptions and price ranges; but please note, these prices are being provided to determine demand, and do not necessarily reflect final Camaro pricing or packaging.

Your answers will go a long way in helping Chevrolet bring the 2010 Camaro to market in the first quarter of 2009.

Thank you for your time in participating in this research event.


The Camaro Launch Team

I took the survey, it only takes a few minutes. The page that discusses pricing on options is pretty interesting, giving us some insight on what the prices for the RS package, leather, sunroof, steering wheel controls, etc will be. What really got my brother and I excited were the pictures of the wheels that will be available. To be honest, I'd say the "standard" 18" steelies that comes on the stripper LS look better than some of the "optional" ones available. Weird...
 
They're selling steelies on the Camaro? I thought we were down to bottom of the line, cheap import econoboxes with steelies, not sports cars.
 
They're selling steelies on the Camaro? I thought we were down to bottom of the line, cheap import econoboxes with steelies, not sports cars.

Some would rather have the option of super-cheap wheels so that they can fit their own.
 
They're selling steelies on the Camaro? I thought we were down to bottom of the line, cheap import econoboxes with steelies, not sports cars.


They actually look kinda cool, they're styled. Like an old Camaro. :cool:
 
i SAID, "no it isnt. unless it runs better than mid 12s." meaning, i KNOW it runs mid 12s. we're on the same page!

Ah ok, please forgive me. I'll go down fighting for the 2003/2004 Cobra with my last ounce of strength. Its just sex on wheels. :D

WOULD YOU LIKE TO HELP DETERMINE THE FINAL PACKAGING OF THE CAMARO?



I took the survey, it only takes a few minutes. The page that discusses pricing on options is pretty interesting, giving us some insight on what the prices for the RS package, leather, sunroof, steering wheel controls, etc will be. What really got my brother and I excited were the pictures of the wheels that will be available. To be honest, I'd say the "standard" 18" steelies that comes on the stripper LS look better than some of the "optional" ones available. Weird...

I took that long-ass survey being honest on every answer. And the following I took screens of...

camaro1.jpg

camaro2.jpg


What I find funny is how I actually chose the most expensive options. :lol: I still maintain its too expensive not matter how much I like those options. I'd rather take a stripped out bare bones car than one all poshed up.

Some would rather have the option of super-cheap wheels so that they can fit their own.

+1

They actually look kinda cool, they're styled. Like an old Camaro. :cool:

+1 Me likes the semi-retro look to them actually.
 
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