Zeta News 2.0: New VF Commodore and Chevrolet SS

[Paulie]

Sort of like Chrysler with their Challenger!

Exactly, this guy gets it.


Edit: The V6 model got 0.93Gs with Motor Trend, a 5.9sec 0-96km/hr, and 14.4sec 1/4mile. I'll take my V6 in yellow, with a re-tune for 98 octane, sports exhaust, etc etc.

 

[Bones Brigade]

Handily, they were 3 tenths off everyone else in the Z and Mustang but a tenth quicker than everyone else in the Camaro.

Further, 13.4 @ 107 is Mach 1/LS1 GTO/99-01 Cobra times, not '03-04. MPH is a bit high for those cars but you could granny launch the Cobra and run quicker than that...

Oh, I know the true numbers for the Cobra. I was simply trying to say, "well look how far off these guys were, just because the SS isn't breaking into 12s on these tests doesn't mean it isn't capable."

Anyway, I don't know why I am trying to be so optimistic. I'm a Z fanboy.

 

[JCE]

Well, in the defense of GM, Pontiac had those numbers 15 years ago, 10 years ago and 5 years ago. So its cyclic, I guess. Maybe Pontiac is just better than Chevrolet?

True. Maybe in 5 years the Camaro can truely have the numbers it deserves...that is if its still here.

Well the GTO was Holdens modified version of Omega platform, Camaro is based of Holdens new brain child Zeta, which inherits the Zeta's major fault..... weight.

GTO wasn't selling well on the US, so they go where the money is (Camaro and retro styling)

I meant in terms of the cars origin, saloon platform and power.

Exactly, this guy gets it.


Edit: The V6 model got 0.93Gs with Motor Trend, a 5.9sec 0-96km/hr, and 14.4sec 1/4mile. I'll take my V6 in yellow, with a re-tune for 98 octane, sports exhaust, etc etc.

More reason to take the V6 model. Drop a turbo/supercharger on the V6 and it will pass the SS.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

My issue with the V6 is still weight. Perhaps find a wrecked '09 V6 in a few years, yank the engine, trans, and all other bits you'd need for the swap, and swing said V6 and 6-speed into a 3rd or 4th gen?

 

[Keef]

Appears to me that the Zeta IRS isn't all it's cracked up to be...

Or is there something else to blame for the car having the power to crack VERY low 12s or high 11s even according to trap speed, but only running 13 flats? It's a fairly heavy car with very wide rear tires...

General Motors has a habit of giving its stock cars really crappy street tires. The tires on the Solstice GXP are so bad I don't even know what they're called. Something from Goodyear. If it had competitive tires it'd probably be one of the best handlers in the category. Same with the Z06--Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires. Garbage. I know of two cars that use those--the Z06 and the Ford GT. They could have done so much better by simply using better tires.

Also, wider tires make for less longitudinal grip. That seems to be one thing many people get wrong. A tall, thin, flexible tire in general will attain better straight-line grip than a wide low-pro.

So, the straight line times have probably suffered--besides the weight, of course--because of GM's decision to put handling and style above straight-line performance. But handling, acceleration, and braking all suffer and are lower than they "should be" because of their habit of inferior performance tires.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Also, wider tires make for less longitudinal grip. That seems to be one thing many people get wrong. A tall, thin, flexible tire in general will attain better straight-line grip than a wide low-pro.

I'd say it's generally a wash... Low-profile tires on big rims inherently will have less longitudinal grip than a smaller rim and more sidewall, but I disagree with the width statement.

Narrower tires will have more weight per square inch on the contact patch yes, but that doesn't mean they'll have more longitudinal grip. If they did, we wouldn't have 10" wide drag slicks as the norm for street cars, would we?

 

[Paulie]

My issue with the V6 is still weight. Perhaps find a wrecked '09 V6 in a few years, yank the engine, trans, and all other bits you'd need for the swap, and swing said V6 and 6-speed into a 3rd or 4th gen?

+1 I'd love to put GM's High Feature V6 into an earl '90s Commodore, say a VN. You'd have a car that weighs 1300kg, handles reasonably with a few mods, and goes like the stink thanks to PWR.

I'd say it's generally a wash... Low-profile tires on big rims inherently will have less longitudinal grip than a smaller rim and more sidewall, but I disagree with the width statement.

Narrower tires will have more weight per square inch on the contact patch yes, but that doesn't mean they'll have more longitudinal grip. If they did, we wouldn't have 10" wide drag slicks as the norm for street cars, would we?

I agree, if wider tyres were worse for straight line performance, then why do drag cars have tyres fatter than Home Simpson? More surface area=more grip.

 

[YSSMAN]

Reading what you guys have talked about for the past few days has gotten me to think about what the Camaro was meant to do - and what it wasn't - versus the competition. Jalopnik's original write-up on the matter spoke of the problem rather simply; While the Ford engineers were working their ass off to make the Mustang the best it could be with a chassis that was mildly re-engineered, the GM guys were trying to re-Camaro the notion of the Camaro.

Its no knock on the overall performance of the car, because honestly, it is very good; Competitive in all aspects, perhaps not class-leading, but still up there. But the problem is that while the Mustang GT handles like a sports car, despite the rather clear "handicaps" of the LRA and such... The Camaro (and Challenger) toss around like older muscle cars. The thing I've come to realize is that GM and Chrysler have built GT Cars, not sports cars, like Ford. Its a slightly different approach to the same idea, and its evident in the way the cars handle, ride, and hell... look.

As a long distance car, the Camaro is bang-on for what it should be. Fast, composed, and above all, stylish. The Mustang is going to be more fun to toss around on the backroads, and I think GM is okay with that. In fact, I'm okay with that. While the prospect of a $28K, nicely equipped GT is almost more tempting than a $31K SS, in the end, I'd rather pay the extra $3K for the power, composure, and (IMO) better outward appearance.

The comparison of the Camaro to the GTO is actually a very good one, and consequently, the same debate is likely to happen. I think GM made a smart move making both cars a bit more "adult," but the big question will be whether or not people buy it (HINT: Probably will be a "yes").

Still, the V6 RS is the place to be. Although while I've been complaining by the lack of a mid-range Z/28, after driving my Dad's new truck around, I almost wish they would have lowballed it and made the Vortec 5300 (read, 327ci) V8 an option.

 

[Paulie]

Are we all forgetting that perhaps in the real world the Camaro will be faster and a better drive anyway? The Mustang will encounter larger problems over bumpy roads thanks to its LRA than a Camaro, and let me tell you something, if both cars were sold in Australia (which they most unfortunately aren't), the Camaro has a clean cut advantage in almost every aspect, as I can't think of a single smooth road anywhere.

 

[YSSMAN]

Ford has managed to engineer most of the problems away with the new Mustang, so rough roads aren't going to be as big of a problem as it used to be. If I were driving across country, I'd likely choose the SS or the R/T over the GT by days end. But nevertheless, they're all on relatively equal footing in terms of performance and price... Ultimately, this comes down to your own driving preferences.

 

[JCE]

Reading what you guys have talked about for the past few days has gotten me to think about what the Camaro was meant to do - and what it wasn't - versus the competition. Jalopnik's original write-up on the matter spoke of the problem rather simply; While the Ford engineers were working their ass off to make the Mustang the best it could be with a chassis that was mildly re-engineered, the GM guys were trying to re-Camaro the notion of the Camaro.

Its no knock on the overall performance of the car, because honestly, it is very good; Competitive in all aspects, perhaps not class-leading, but still up there. But the problem is that while the Mustang GT handles like a sports car, despite the rather clear "handicaps" of the LRA and such... The Camaro (and Challenger) toss around like older muscle cars. The thing I've come to realize is that GM and Chrysler have built GT Cars, not sports cars, like Ford. Its a slightly different approach to the same idea, and its evident in the way the cars handle, ride, and hell... look.

As a long distance car, the Camaro is bang-on for what it should be. Fast, composed, and above all, stylish. The Mustang is going to be more fun to toss around on the backroads, and I think GM is okay with that. In fact, I'm okay with that. While the prospect of a $28K, nicely equipped GT is almost more tempting than a $31K SS, in the end, I'd rather pay the extra $3K for the power, composure, and (IMO) better outward appearance.

The comparison of the Camaro to the GTO is actually a very good one, and consequently, the same debate is likely to happen. I think GM made a smart move making both cars a bit more "adult," but the big question will be whether or not people buy it (HINT: Probably will be a "yes").

Still, the V6 RS is the place to be. Although while I've been complaining by the lack of a mid-range Z/28, after driving my Dad's new truck around, I almost wish they would have lowballed it and made the Vortec 5300 (read, 327ci) V8 an option.

+1 For GM making an old school Musclecar.
-1 For GM not pushing the envelope. They had a CLEAR opportunity to wipe the smile off of both Ford AND Nissan's face...and perhaps even itself by way of the 4th gens. The 4th gens high-power models (WS6/SS) match it on the 1/4 but take it around corners.

I do like the Camaro, alot, but if I was going to buy one the V6 is just more appealing. The Vortec 5.3L would be a PERFECT fit for a Z28 trim--that and sell it for about $27k and it might just compete with the GT more since the price would be about the same. They need to engineer (and I can't believe I'm going to say this) more torque than horsepower to scoot that heavy butt along faster in a straight line then maybe it can get some good competitive numbers.

Are we all forgetting that perhaps in the real world the Camaro will be faster and a better drive anyway? The Mustang will encounter larger problems over bumpy roads thanks to its LRA than a Camaro, and let me tell you something, if both cars were sold in Australia (which they most unfortunately aren't), the Camaro has a clean cut advantage in almost every aspect, as I can't think of a single smooth road anywhere.

The Mustang has always handled better than people give it credit for...and the trackpack makes it very good around corners for its suspension. And of course the Camaro will have an advantage in Aussie-land, its an Aussie platform.

Ford has managed to engineer most of the problems away with the new Mustang, so rough roads aren't going to be as big of a problem as it used to be. If I were driving across country, I'd likely choose the SS or the R/T over the GT by days end. But nevertheless, they're all on relatively equal footing in terms of performance and price... Ultimately, this comes down to your own driving preferences.

Don't forget noise. Modular > LSx

 

[Paulie]

I know the Mustang handles better than people give it credit for, I just figured that the Camaro would do better over the bumps/bumpy tracks (eg. Nürburging), but YSSMAN tells me that may not necessarily be the case either. Oh well, maybe the Camaro will benefit from some weight savings soon like the Commodore was planned for.

OR, like YSSMAN said, maybe if it actually had tyres on par with everyone else it really would handle better than the Mustang. I'm also curious what rim size all these testers used, as from what I heard in one review the 18" handle better than 19" rims.

 

[YSSMAN]

The Vortec 5.3L would be a PERFECT fit for a Z28 trim--that and sell it for about $27k and it might just compete with the GT more since the price would be about the same. They need to engineer (and I can't believe I'm going to say this) more torque than horsepower to scoot that heavy butt along faster in a straight line then maybe it can get some good competitive numbers.

I actually don't disagree with that notion at all. Its no knock on the LS3 or the L99, both are strong engines that pull hard no matter what. The problem is, they're both a bit too expensive, and it ultimately makes the less-than-$30K V8 sweetspot unattainable. We have the redone version of the 5.3L in our 2009 Avalanche, and matched to the 6L80E, that damn engine just pulls so hard. In a truck that size, it will still put it back in your seat, and that is mighty impressive compared to other trucks out there. The 325 BHP is just about perfect, and the torque is available down low without any kind of problem. My guess would have been that in a Camaro, with the proper cold air intake and sport exhaust, the power could have easily been upped to 335-345 BHP, and ultimately it could have continued on with flex fuel, cylinder deactivation, among other neat features... all for less money.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

While I'm Thinking About It...

Edmunds has their first American Musclecar Shootout available to read, and the results aren't exactly surprising. Stick the Camaro SS up against the Challenger R/T and Mustang GT (with Track Pack)... You can guess who wins, in what order, without much help. It seems like they're echoing the same points from other websites and magazines, and I can't fault them.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

All of which gets me thinking after reading that article:

How long will it be before "the people" demand that Chevrolet build a V6 version of the Camaro with the full-tune FE3 chassis and the shorter axle ratio?

 

[YSSMAN]

News for People Who Like to Talk Chassis Design

Top Story: Zeta Reportedly Dead in the Water

• By 2012, the current "Zeta I" chassis will pass
• Reportedly, the Commodore will transfer to the Camaro's "Zeta II" chassis --> VF Generation
• The G8 likely dies with the first generation of the Zeta platform
• Following the end of the "Zeta II" run, its gone

The argument focuses mainly around the fact that Sigma II (think Cadillac CTS) is cheaper to build, just as large, and just as capable to accept major amounts of power and all that jazz. But, the problem is that GM dumped billions of dollars into the development of the Zeta program - all to have it disappear in a single generation (Kappa, anyone?).

The validity of this story seems a bit weak at this point, but given the on/off nature of the platform over the past four or five years, I wouldn't push it too far beyond the realm of possibility. It is disappointing nevertheless, particularly when there are a fair number of stellar products based on the platform that should be sold in the US -and aren't.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

In Other News: The Alpha Platform (Still) Lives

• The Zeta program dies 2011-2012
• Zeta II takes over after that
• The smaller, lighter Alpha chassis goes into affect by 2015 (?)
• Will replace Commodore, Impala, and all that

This is both disappointing and promising news. For one, its good to hear that the RWD Impala program is back on. Problem is, the current FWD car goes on until 2013 (making the run of the W-Body for 26 years a stunning achievement in American automotive engineering)... And not having a replacement, assumingly a good one, until 2015 is far too long of a development cycle. In general, stories like this magnify my frustration with GM in general. Not only are the development cycles becoming incredibly unrealistic in terms of delivering good products on time, its a downward spiral that is going to only expand their problems with the public opinion that they build "lesser" cars.

 

[Tornado]

The argument focuses mainly around the fact that Sigma II (think Cadillac CTS) is cheaper to build

How...
...
...
How did they even manage to do that?!!?!

Is GM that screwed up that their workhorse sedan chassis that is spread throughout dozens of cars costs more than the luxury sedan platform that is used in one? I mean, Chrysler made the LX platform on a 48 cent budget and some old Mercedes parts they found in a barn, and the Charger isn't that much worse than the G8.

That being said, if Zeta II won't even become common until 2012, that means, what, 8 years before the platform goes away? That doesn't seem too bad. I am surprised that they aren't going go through and eliminate GMT355 with Zeta, though.
How big is the Alpha chassis supposed to be? 5-series sized? Or is it smaller?

 

[YSSMAN]

In theory, the normal Alpha chassis is supposed to be 3-series sized. In theory, it was supposed to compliment the Zeta III chassis nicely, it being the flexible chassis that could be both 5er and 7er sized. So, apparently the Alpha chassis will now be flexible and cover both the 3er and the 5er?

I'm confused. Throw the possibility of a Sigma III chassis on the pile, and it gets infinitely worse.

 

[Philly]

What's going on over there? I really wish GM would make up their mind to do something, and do it well. I don't understand how half of GM's platforms are from the stone age, yet they keep replacing others every three years.

GM used to be known for innovation, and now they're the ones who start a project, and then oscillate between scrapping and restarting it every other month, and then decide "Nah, that's not quite right, we need to replace it."

I think they'd be better off with three good different sized RWD platforms, one which is already in development (Alpha), one already in production (Sigma) and the Zeta, which would maybe need revision or something instead of putting their subcompact and full-size car all on the same platform. And then, if you want, they could use the ability of the different chassis to be different sizes to maybe put different cars of one size on different platforms, so your dealers aren't trying to sell one car under three different brands like what is happening with all this badge engineering. But this whole thing is getting confusing. Hopefully GM has it worked out, however unlikely that is.

 

[Jim Prower]

This is not a good thread to read while on Sudafed. *cough*

Can't wrap my mind around it either, other than the tooling in the Sigma II is long paid for, and the Zeta tooling is still rather new. and had a ridiculously long development in comparison.

I think that it might've been less expensive if GM had simply stuck to their guns and gotten the project done, instead of standing on the fence like they seem to have done throughout the '00s.

I think, perhaps, GM got rid of much of their management bureaucracy, it'd be a happier, better, and more competitive company.

 

[JCE]

You're lucky I am currently sick and I can't even take cold medicines because I'm alergic.

 

[YSSMAN]

Can't wrap my mind around it either...

I've obviously been following this for a long time, and I still can't figure out how things got so messed up, and why things are the way they are. Quite simply, it sounds like the only sane management folks are the people who run Opel, Holden and Daewoo.

 

[Omnis]

I've obviously been following this for a long time, and I still can't figure out how things got so messed up, and why things are the way they are. Quite simply, it sounds like the only sane management folks are the people who run Opel, Holden and Daewoo.

Honestly, that's all the GM car lines there needs to be. Opel Europe, Holden Australia, Chevy (or Cadillac) N.A., and Daewoo econobox worldwide. Chevy can survive as a truck exclusive brand.

And the Camaro being a long distance car is a laugh. I can't stand being in one for 5 minutes let alone an hour. It looks good on the outside... that's about it. I'd rather have a Benz for the money it costs to get a loaded Camaro.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

And the Camaro being a long distance car is a laugh. I can't stand being in one for 5 minutes let alone an hour. It looks good on the outside... that's about it. I'd rather have a Benz for the money it costs to get a loaded Camaro.

As long as the seats don't suck and the ride doesn't beat you up it's fine...

 

[Jay]

My parents told me they spotted a new Chev Camaro near the beach, then later spotted it parked and took a quick picture with their low quality camera phone and sent it to me.

Sorry about the quality but it is better than nothing, considering they are not for sale in Australia or even RHD.

Victorian registered (I'm South Australia) and LHD still, we have large Holden offices here so maybe they so borrowed some to play around with.

For anyone in Adelaide curious it was at Glenelg.

Holden owned Camaro in South Australia.

 

[YSSMAN]

That's pretty awesome! Although, I can't remember if they scrapped the RHD version or not. It would seem like selling the car in Australia, the UK, etc would be a good way to make a little bit of cash on the side.

 

[Jim Prower]

I dunno, YSS. As averse as people worldwide are to the Corvette, I think a car that's even more In-your-face Yankee Doodle might be even further a turnoff.

 

[Paulie]

Hey, Australia likes the yank tanks, we have our own muscle car industry you know.

 

[Jim Prower]

okay, save for Australia/New Zealand.

 

[Joey D]

Just wondering here how many people stateside have seen the new Camaro on the road. I'm already tired of seeing them since on my commute to an from work I see at least 2 if not more. I believe they are on sale now but I don't really know.

 

[Jim Prower]

Saw/sat in one at the local auto show, so I assume that they'll be swarming our roads soon.

I like the Challenger when I see it on the road, though. It has...presence. I can't really describe it.

 

[Philly]

Hey, Australia likes the yank tanks, we have our own muscle car industry you know.

Apparently it's quickly going down the drain too...

Just wondering here how many people stateside have seen the new Camaro on the road. I'm already tired of seeing them since on my commute to an from work I see at least 2 if not more. I believe they are on sale now but I don't really know.

I've seen a couple, but nothing regularly. I had no sightings in Seattle when I was home, but apparently my friends see them all the time.