F1 2010F1 2010-2016 

Shaggy Alonso

Couple of impressive looking videos - much smoother and more life-like than the previous E3 videos, mainly owing to the fact that the gamer is using a wheel this time:

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Thanks ... Dry looks better to me. TV cockpit needs some adjustment I think. It is too far for my liking

Duffers917K

I'm not sure about the Geordie race engineer. Doesn't look like much oversteer aswell, just understeer all over the place like F1:CE, his front wheels were even screeching in the wet.

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A friend of mine is working on the game and assures me the screeching in the wet was only added for development purposes - it will not be in the full version. Also, the McLaren sound is now more accurate.

I was thinking of getting this game for the PC but I'm kind of hooked into iRacing right now and I won't be able to afford both of them.

I'll wait for a demo to see how well it plays with a wheel.

Imakuni

A friend of mine is working on the game and assures me the screeching in the wet was only added for development purposes - it will not be in the full version. Also, the McLaren sound is now more accurate.

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I also think the screeching is unrealistic in the dry, does he know if it will stay there in the dry aswell?

Imakuni

A friend of mine is working on the game *snip*

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If this is true, tell him to convince codemasters to start developing sims and not arcade or simcade games. I know, was mentioned in an interview, that one of the developers is more into sim racing than arcade.

I want this badly.

Anyone seen any PS3 footage of this?, all they seem to show is Xbox.

I want the PS version because my wheel is better for it. If its a shoddy conversion im gonna have to go Xbox.

Duffers917K

I also think the screeching is unrealistic in the dry, does he know if it will stay there in the dry aswell?

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Sorry for double post.

Im with you fella, but not feeling g-forces etc an audible aid when your car loses grip is good thing IMHO.

Maybe sliders set up for different sounds, other cars, collisions, ambient, engine and tyre noises could be a good compromise.

kikie

If this is true, tell him to convince codemasters to start developing sims and not arcade or simcade games. I know, was mentioned in an interview, that one of the developers is more into sim racing than arcade.

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It's not that simple, Kikie, by working to only Sim-racing you'd alienate a mass part of the market.

It'll never happen.

Not only sims but both.

Codemasters can easely develop arcade or simcade race games and sims.

This could even be a good marketing strategy. Codemasters keep their arcade and simcade fans and gains the long lost simmers. I'm still convinced that Codemasters is only creating games to make a profit. Game developers like KY, Kunos, Dave Kaemmer and John Henry. These are truly inspired race sim developers.

And it did happen, in the past with the Toca series. I remember Toca 2.

I'm still convinced that Codemasters is only creating games to make a profit.

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Seriously? I may need to repeat that word for full effect.

Seriously?

Fact is simmers are a teeny minority, a niche market if you will. The fact of game development is you will never satisfy all your customers needs, period. Toca 2 had a massive appeal because BTCC was popular at the time.

After 25 years of developing various titles on various platforms to various customers, I think they are more than capable of identifying and carrying out a marketing strategy that works. No, actually, I know they are. They wouldn't be the biggest independent games developer or the iconic stand in the UK games industry if they couldn't.

Niche market or not, it's a fast growing market. If Codemasters doesn't understand that, than they have poor marketing skills.

Duffers917K

I also think the screeching is unrealistic in the dry, does he know if it will stay there in the dry aswell?

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I'm not sure so can't help you there sorry. I'll try to poach a bit more information when I next see him!

kikie

If this is true, tell him to convince codemasters to start developing sims and not arcade or simcade games. I know, was mentioned in an interview, that one of the developers is more into sim racing than arcade.

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I kinda agree with you and what you've said. Surely the profit they make on mainstream arcade racers for the masses allow them to make a solid sim (or at least something closer to sim) racer for the niche market?

I think it'd be better if like GT5/P it had two handling models to be able to cater for both.

So you'd expect a company to use the profits of one project to fund a project that would lose money?

Yeah, that's a solid business model.

Duffers917K

I think it'd be better if like GT5/P it had to handling models to be able to cater for both.

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Judging by the interviews I've watched that's what they're trying to do.

I don't think it will be much of a sim, but if it plays well with the wheel it should be fun. By playing well I mean more like DiRT 2 than GRID.

Sureboss

So you'd expect a company to use the profits of one project to fund a project that would lose money?

Yeah, that's a solid business model.

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I mean in the same game, e.g. the same physics but one with more/less grip and assists to make one easier to drive or vice versa.

Remember GPL? RBR is very succesful. Even insidesimracing said in one of their latest reviews that Milestone should take a look at RBR for developing their new WRC game.


Don't forget the development of all the race hardware that has been developed the last few years and still is being developed. This only means one thing; sim racing is a new exploding market. Codemasters should jump on the opportunity.

The last few years, most of the people complained how Codemasters is going downhill by developing arcade games. Like I mentioned before, one of the developers of F1 2010 said in an interview that he prefers making sims instead of arcadish race games. Dirt and Grid got a lot of bad criticisme because of the poor physics and the arcade feel.

Superstars V8 racing and next challenge got a lot of bad criticisme as well.

The area of arcade race games is over. If someone wants to play an arcade race game, play Blur, Second split, MotorStorm, Burnout etc... .

I'm not against arcade race games but a game developer as Codemasters should develop both. Sims and Arcade. Playing arcade race games is a lot of fun from time to time.

Arcade racers sell much more than sims. Everyone who owns a PC or a console has a keyboard or a joystick, few of those people have wheels. That's why companies prefer to make arcade games, because it sells more and that means more money.

It will have good gameplay, AI I think. May be not sim like GT but more like Forza. Even F1CE was good game IMO and very underrated

livemusic

*snip* That's why companies prefer to make arcade games, because it sells more and that means more money.

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Exactly my point. Codemasters are only in the game business to make money.

kikie

Exactly my point. Codemasters are only in the game business to make money.

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Isn't that how all business work???
Put yourself in their position, would you make a sim game that will sell 10000 copies or an arcade game that will sell 20000???
From what we've seen so far, they're trying to please both parties, so that's a plus. But don't count on them making a hardcore sim like RBR or iRacing.

HN7

Isn't that how all business work???

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Yes but you can start a business because it's your passion, like KY/PD creates Gran Turismo, Dave Kaemmer and John Henry from iRacing, Kunos who develops netKar Pro, and don't forget all the top modders whom create mods for rFactor for FREE.
Codemasters develops/publishes one game after another, as if they have an assembly line.

Codemasters as a company, and I'm not talking about some of the developers, has no passion, they're in for the money, not for the passion. Some of the Codemasters developers are passioned enough but they are restricted by Codemasters. Why, because Codemasters is only interested in making money.

Like I've mentioned many times now, a developer of F1 2010 is more into developing sims but he's not allowed. Codemasters wants to make games with as little cost as possible with the biggets profit. That's not passion, that's business! And that's what I have been trying to say. If Codemasters was passioned, we already had a true sim.

HN7

would you make a sim game that will sell 10000 copies or an arcade game that will sell 20000???

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Definitely the first option, if I had the skills.

Again, netkar Pro is a very good example of a small private company, who is restricted by BRD ( Ballracing Developments), with a limited budget but they still try to improve netKar Pro. It's people like the netKar pro developers that deserves my respect and are true passioned sim developers. And yes, I have a netkar Pro license.

^ I agree, you have a point. Sadly, most will choose money over anything else.

kikie

The area of arcade race games is over. If someone wants to play an arcade race game, play Blur, Second split, MotorStorm, Burnout etc... .

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Sorry, but this is incorrect. The arcade racing market will always be higher than the sim market purely for the fact that people don't want to always race real cars with the most realistic physics because then it becomes very challenging & hard to just jump into.

RBR, LFS, GTR, all successful for a sim game. But in overall racing games, very far down the list of high sellers & popularity.
Looking at 2010, the biggest sim title has pretty much been GT followed by iRacing. F1 2010 may join it.

Meanwhile, in the arcade corner, Split/Second, Blur, TDU2, NFS: HP, & even Motorstorm: Apocalypse have gained a large amount of hype in the arcade racing area.

Arcade games will always hold the majority of the market because so much can be done with it. Guns, fantasy, etc. all without the steep learning curves of a sim.

He doesn't have a point, actually. Does he personally know any one at the top of the business to see this lack of enthusiasm for making games?

Having actually worked with them and knowing several people who work there, the enthusiasm for making games is massive, but like any company they have to make a profit to satisfy the shareholders, they have to survive with a vibrant and realistic business model. That doesn't involve alienating 95% of the market to create the perfect sim racer.

They're in the process of bringing back a popular racer, they're developing the new F1 game after several years in the wilderness, they've created some of the most commercially successful racers around, going back to good old Micro Machines.

and don't forget all the top modders whom create mods for rFactor for FREE.

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You think they are developers or publishers? No. They are modders, end of.

This, frankly thoughtless opinion that you keep going back to is stupid. "Only in it for the money." Any business can be portrayed like that, particularly in gaming as gamers have NFI how games are developed.

You think KY/PD develop because they are passionate about making genre defining games? No, I'm pretty sure Sony will be interest in the Millions of profit it has generated because it appeals to the wider audience. The hardcore simmers I've raced with have no interest in the GT series, it has to be PC based, moddable is preferrable (rFactor for example) as it means they don't have to buy a new game for 3-4 years. PC gaming is dead, consoles are the way forward (yes, this can be based on sales from Codies too, I know of one of their recent projects which had 99% of it's sales on the 360 & PS3.).

Be realistic with what you want, and you might just get it. Just stop spouting lies.

Definitely the first option, if I had the skills.

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Ah, so 10,000 customers, rough turnover in the area of under half a million, and you expect to be able to develop a top level sim racer for that money?

Good luck.

You'd be hard pushed to sell much more than that for a true sim racer aswell, that's why iRacing charge in the way they do and why rFactor2 has taken so long to develop. Whereas arcade or simcade is looking nearer the million mark, if not higher.

Niche markets are special, I work in one, we genuinely do it because we love it, doesn't mean we don't have to factor finance in to everything, in fact it's more pertinent that we do, as we have less to fall back on. There's no profit in them and the life-span can be tediously short if you make errors. Indie developers are brilliant, they deserve full support as it does make a difference, you not buying a multi-platform seller in the millions/high hundred thousands, doesn't. But don't confuse the two, they are completely different sectors of a highly volatile industry.

McLaren

Sorry, but this is incorrect. The arcade racing market will always be higher than the sim market purely for the fact that people don't want to always race real cars with the most realistic physics because then it becomes very challenging & hard to just jump into.

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Yes, it was not correct of me to say that the arcade racing market is over.

McLaren

Meanwhile, in the arcade corner, Split/Second, Blur, TDU2, NFS: HP, & even Motorstorm: Apocalypse have gained a large amount of hype in the arcade racing area.

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Yep, I also said that I don't have anything against arcade games. As a matter of fact, I now and then really enjoy arcadish race games, I still LOVE to play 1nsane. Best off-road game ever.

McLaren

Arcade games will always hold the majority of the market because so much can be done with it. Guns, fantasy, etc. all without the steep learning curves of a sim.

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True

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Terronium-12[/COLOR]]So many things wrong with the last couple of posts. Of course they're making games for a profit, it's a business...money keeps them in business. If they focused on such a small audience they'd be restricted to one platform, would most likely have to downsize their staff, and would probably go bankrupt in a short time.

As for the I'd rather sell 10,000, as opposed to 20,000. What happens when that 10,000 wasn't enough to carry you over whatsoever? The company goes under, and you're left thinking "Gee, I wish we had sold 20,000 units instead). I don't know any strong running company that doesn't put out products for the money; whether it be just for the money, or a combination of passion and for the money. Passion won't get you anywhere unless you can pay the bills to fund said passion.

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Wrong! You still don't get it.

If your analagy is correct, iRacing, KY, Kunos and all the mod developers would heve gone bankrupt even before they started. Have they gone bankrupt, no! Why not because they put a lot of effort, passion and perseverance into developing these sims.
You do know that KY started with Gran Tursimo is because of his passion for cars and racing. He created a game for himself and got so much succes that he made a sequel and so one. That's passion!

Sureboss

He doesn't have a point, actually. Does he personally know any one at the top of the business to see this lack of enthusiasm for making games?

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Actually I have a point and you know it. I have the feeling that you feel personally attacked. I don't know anyone of the top of the top of Codemasters but you haven't either.

Sureboss

Having actually worked with them and knowing several people who work there, the enthusiasm for making games is massive, but like any company they have to make a profit to satisfy the shareholders, they have to survive with a vibrant and realistic business model. That doesn't involve alienating 95% of the market to create the perfect sim racer.

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Remember this posts ;p

Sureboss

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showposts.php?p=3732905#post3732905

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If I read correclty, you haven't worked with them. You worked with one guy and he's not even a developer. And I said many times that I saw a youtube video clip were one of the developers of F1 2010 is more of a sim enthusiast but he's not allowed and restricted by Codemasters. You can't ignore this fact because this person said it himself. And again it's Codemasters, as a company that lacks the passion. I never said that the developers are lacking passion. I'm sure they do but again and again and again they are not allowed by Codemasters (as a company) to develop a sim.

Don't get me wrong Sureboss, I'm very much interested in F1 2010. It seems that Codemastes left the pure arcade way of developing with F1 2010.

Sureboss

but like any company they have to make a profit to satisfy the shareholders, they have to survive with a vibrant and realistic business model. That doesn't involve alienating 95% of the market to create the perfect sim racer.

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+1 I agree with 100%, execept for the last part. That's shows what Codemasters is all about. Making profit and no passion. And I never said that they have to alienate themselve to create a perfect sim. Heck I even never said that they have to create a perfect sim. Just sims like TOCA 2. And that doesn't mean that they have to alienate.
Creating sims doesn't per sé mean loosing money. Codemasters have the skills, have the passionate developers but Codemasters (as a company) have the wrong attitude towards developing race games. A perfect sim like you said is too riskey, I agree. A sim(s) is good enough and I think F1 2010 is going into the right direction. . If I follow your reasoning, than F1 2010 (if this turns out to be more sim than arcade) is going to be a bad decision, (for a part anyway) money wise .

Sureboss

They're in the process of bringing back a popular racer, they're developing the new F1 game after several years in the wilderness,

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And I'm pleaset they do. And you said it yourself: " after several years in the wilderness, ". That's a result of making pure arcade racers without any passion and trying to make as much money as possible. My point of this discussion.
Codemasters lost their way. Many fans have been complaining the last few years and I hope they are back! and don't forget all the top modders whom create mods for rFactor for FREE.

Sureboss

You think they are developers or publishers? No. They are modders, end of.

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Publishers? No they are not. Developers? Yes, absolutely. But not all modders are. What do you think, do modders suck the mods out to their tumps? No, some of them makes (= develop) these mods from scratch and they do so for many years before releasing these mods. Ever heard of http://www.bsimracing.com/ . I know the owner of that site in person. He told me all about their mod and yes they have developed this mod from scratch. Even Historic GT & TC 2.0 is a totally new developed mod based on GTL. And don't forget REIZA studios : https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123737

This, frankly thoughtless opinion that you keep going back to is stupid. "Only in it for the money." Any business can be portrayed like that, particularly in gaming as gamers have NFI how games are developed.

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Down boy, down.

You don't have to become all emotional, it's just a discussion. If one should become emotional, it should be me. Luckily I'm not that person anymore or maybe still for 20%.

You think KY/PD develop because they are passionate about making genre defining games?

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YES absolutely. KY is very passionate about his Gran Turismo. He keeps pushing back to release date because it has to perfect and that my friend is what passion is all about. And I already said how KY started with Gran Turismo in the '90. So yes, KY is very passionate.

No, I'm pretty sure Sony will be interest in the Millions of profit it has generated because it appeals to the wider audience.

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I agree but now you're talking about Sony and not KY!

The hardcore simmers I've raced with have no interest in the GT series, it has to be PC based, moddable is preferrable (rFactor for example) as it means they don't have to buy a new game for 3-4 years. PC gaming is dead, consoles are the way forward (yes, this can be based on sales from Codies too, I know of one of their recent projects which had 99% of it's sales on the 360 & PS3.).

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And again I agree with you.
But I wasn't talking about a hardcore sim or a perfect sim. I started this discussion (which wasn't my intention) with saying that Codemasters has no passion and are in the gaming business purely for the money. They have been developing arcade racers. I want a sim from Codemasters. Not a true full blown, hardcore, perfect sim. Just a simple sim based race game and not a arcade based race game. If I want to play a hardcore sim (there is no perfect sim), I start playing netKar Pro again and see if I can get my hands on a iRacing license. I can't for the moment because my gaming pc is broken and I still don't have a wheel. I'm also a beta tester for R-T-R (beta testing with my keyboard
And is there a difference between a sim based race game and a true full blown, hardcore, perfect sim? I think there is. The latter is only possible on PC (you see Sureboss, I agree with you 100%). But a sim based race game is also possible on console. The CEO of slighty mad studios said so. Isn't Race Pro for the 360 a sim based race game? I think so, yes.

I also prefer console but I still buy pc games because the majority of the games look much better on pc than the do on console. And graphics is very important to me. As important as sim based physics engines.

Be realistic with what you want, and you might just get it. Just stop spouting lies.

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I'm realistic. I qant sims based games not arcade race games.
Lies? Ok, if that's your attitude, so be it. Sorry to hear that.

Definitely the first option, if I had the skills.

Sureboss

Ah, so 10,000 customers, rough turnover in the area of under half a million, and you expect to be able to develop a top level sim racer for that money?

Good luck.

You'd be hard pushed to sell much more than that for a true sim racer aswell, that's why iRacing charge in the way they do and why rFactor2 has taken so long to develop. Whereas arcade or simcade is looking nearer the million mark, if not higher.

Niche markets are special, I work in one, we genuinely do it because we love it, doesn't mean we don't have to factor finance in to everything, in fact it's more pertinent that we do, as we have less to fall back on. There's no profit in them and the life-span can be tediously short if you make errors. Indie developers are brilliant, they deserve full support as it does make a difference, you not buying a multi-platform seller in the millions/high hundred thousands, doesn't. But don't confuse the two, they are completely different sectors of a highly volatile industry.

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Yes they are, I knew one personally. He came to Belgium because a company needed his programming skills. He went to the same gym as I did and we started talking.

Again, I'm not talking about true sims. Just sim based race games not arcade race games. I only mentioned iRacing, netKar Pro etc... because I wanted to say that these people are very passionate about their hardcore sims. If Codemasters should start to develop hardcore sims like the one I mentioned, Codemasters would loose money and that's not good. Codemasters will not loose money if they create sim based race games, like F1 2010. I hope they are back because they know their business. And sims are possible on console as well (why bother making F1 2010 on a multi platform is it wasn't)


Codemasters can easily develop both arcade an sims but they don't because they mainly are into the gaming business for making money. There is no passion. If there was, they had developed sims as well.
My whole point that started this discussion is that Codemasters lack the passion and are only into the gaming business to make a profit!


I have my opinion and some of you have yours. I will stick to it unless someone of Codemasters contact me and explain that my opinion is wrong and than and only than I'll gladly to admit that I'm wrong. [sarcasme]Untill then, I'm right! LOL [/sarcasme]

Enough, I'm going to the gym.

I'm not emotional, I'm pointing out that you know very little about how development works or Codemasters themselves, my contacts there are more than just one guy as well, I'm more than aware of their passion for making games, just because those games are aimed at mass markets and make profits (some of them) doesn't mean that they aren't passionate. It still takes passion to deliver a game to hundreds of thousands/millions of casual gamers as it does to deliver a game to tens of thousands of hardcore gamers.

Of course they have to say "can we make money out of this project", all businesses do, or they wouldn't exist, you seem to be missing this point by a country mile.

My point with KY was that he isn't only passionate, do you think his bosses care only about passion? No, money matters, it's a business, if a business doesn't care about it's profits as it's main point, then it will fail, period.

Sureboss

Of course they have to say "can we make money out of this project", all businesses do, or they wouldn't exist, you seem to be missing this point by a country mile.

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No, I'm not, you are!

Where did I say that the developers are not passionate? I said that Codemasters as a company is not passionate enough and that my friend is a big difference. I suggest you read my posts more carefully. You can be passionate all you want but if the company doesn't want you to persue that passion, you get what Codemasters has been doing for the last couple of years, making arcade race game, one after another, without passion. Maybe I should have said, releasing/publishing arcade race games instead of developing.

Please back on topic now. I'm not changing my mind nor do you and this discussion is going nowhere. No hard feelings Sureboss!

Last thing, I'm looking forward to F1 2010. I prefer this over TDU anytime.

Even Imakuni agrees with me.

Imakuni

A friend of mine is working on the game and assures me the screeching in the wet was only added for development purposes - it will not be in the full version. Also, the McLaren sound is now more accurate.

kikie

If this is true, tell him to convince codemasters to start developing sims and not arcade or simcade games. I know, was mentioned in an interview, that one of the developers is more into sim racing than arcade.

Imakuni

I kinda agree with you and what you've said. Surely the profit they make on mainstream arcade racers for the masses allow them to make a solid sim (or at least something closer to sim) racer for the niche market?

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Not great news but there is not going to be any demo for F1 2010 In their forums it is already confirmed. They are trying to release the game on time.