GTRA | RSeat WSGTC S3 | Main Thread

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i am sorry to see that some people are considering their future in the WSGTC.
since masi has been absent, we have pulled together to try and uphold the spirit and tradition of what he created.
we believe that everything is geared toward a challenging and close run season.
it would be wrong to make changes to try to please everyone.
we really hope that everyone takes their place on the grid and enjoy the competition. anyone that finds the rules will spoil the racing, we are sorry you feel that way.
it has took a long time coming, but we hope everyone really enjoys the season.

on behalf of the admins and stewards
 
If you're worried about people not going for wins in favor of strategically holding back then all you have to do is increase the number of points for podium positions. Also increase the points for winning even more relative to second and third.

And if you're worried about 200kg of ballast being too much then just tweak it and put the cap at 60kg, which enough of an effect but without completely killing the car's feel. Work with it people, this is your championship.
 
Looking at the Q sheet on the GT300s, it seems a great job has been done. Having 12 drivers within a second is remarkable, really. Now, it's time to see if the ballast will affect this competitivity or not. There are people who handle ballast better than others. 100KG can probably have the same effect on someone than someone else who has 200KG. For example, you can give Aderrrm 30KG and 0KG to me and I bet he'll still beat me.

Ballast's purpose is to balance out the differences in the cars' performance. In here, ballast is done to balance out/punish skill. Which isn't bad, but could ruin the fun of racing. I'm not against it, but Im not in favor either. Its a meh situation for me.
 
Wardez
If you're worried about people not going for wins in favor of strategically holding back then all you have to do is increase the number of points for podium positions. Also increase the points for winning even more relative to second and third.

And if you're worried about 200kg of ballast being too much then just tweak it and put the cap at 60kg, which enough of an effect but without completely killing the car's feel. Work with it people, this is your championship.
Click to expand...
As of now, I have yet to see any kind of different ballast system that could be used.

I've no idea how anyone could expect a different system then was previously used without at least a structural concept for a different plan of action. :confused:

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3rd twice equals 42 points, and 40KG ballast.
1st and 5th equals 46 points and 40KG ballast.
2nd and 3rd equals 46 points and 50KG ballast.
4th and 2nd equals 43 points and 40KG ballast.
1st and 4th equals 48 points and 50KG ballast.

Where's the loophole at?
Bonus, race completion, and fastest lap bonus points are the same possible addition for anyone, but top 4 points finishers get ballast, bonus points are included in tat.
 
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CSLACR
3rd twice equals 42 points, and 40KG ballast.
1st and 5th equals 46 points and 40KG ballast.
2nd and 3rd equals 46 points and 50KG ballast.
4th and 2nd equals 43 points and 40KG ballast.
1st and 4th equals 48 points and 50KG ballast.

Where's the loophole at?
Bonus, race completion, and fastest lap bonus points are the same possible addition for anyone, but top 4 points finishers get ballast, bonus points are included in tat.
Click to expand...

The loophole is when you apply and exeectue a good strategy taking advantage of the ballast penalty system as is.

In your example, you have applied some of the bonus points and done it where the one finishing first also got more bonus points in that race. But if you apply my strategy you will aim for the following.

When going for the win and also getting the maximum bonus points (fastest lap, pole), your points reward for winning will be 5 points. Given that the field has evened out after some races, but you have avoided it by builing up less ballast, you can assume that the #2 will not qualify 2nd and get the 2nd fastest lap but some other drivers will. Now you will likely get 7-10 points bonus for the win. In the same way, when going for 4-5th place, steal some bonus points from getting qualify and fastest lap point, and the winning reward will not be 5 but 2-3 points. Furthermore, when doing a major mistake in a race and getting damage. Normally you might finish in 8th, but thanks to a lighter car you can maybe get up to 6th and gain 2 "ballast free" points.

Now you have a strategy that takes advantage of the ballast system, but its neither fun ot execute nor fair racing/competition. If the system penalize you from doing well and reward you for doing bad, a health competition is basically flawed.

One other thing. Mole is maybe the driver to beat. If I can manage to beat him but my car is 30kg lighter gives me absolutely zero satisfaction. But if I can beat him fair and square, I would be very happy. Whats the point of racing with a success penalization system.

Here is in my view a much better ballast handicap system. Simple and much fairer.
- 1-4th place in the championship race with 60kg ballast
- 5-8th place with 40kg
- 9-12th with 20kg
- 13-and up with none.

This could be implemented right away and using the quali result for the first race.

The field will be closer together in the races. But the guy being the 10th fastest will probably not win any races. He will however have closer racing with the 6th fastest driver and 14th fastest driver. Also it will not stop a Tony/adrrrrmmm to run away, but whats the point of racing them with a car 100kg lighter. ----

But the most important thing is that it will be a much fairer competition and finishing ahead over another driver would actually be satisfying.
 
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Sail IC
The loophole is when you apply and exeectue a good strategy taking advantage of the ballast penalty system as is.

In your example, you have applied some of the bonus points and done it where the one finishing first also got more bonus points in that race. But if you apply my strategy you will aim for the following.

When going for the win and also getting the maximum bonus points (fastest lap, pole), your points reward for winning will be 5 points. Given that the field has evened out after some races, but you have avoided it by builing up less ballast, you can assume that the #2 will not qualify 2nd and get the 2nd fastest lap but some other drivers will. Now you will likely get 7-10 points bonus for the win. In the same way, when going for 4-5th place, steal some bonus points from getting qualify and fastest lap point, and the winning reward will not be 5 but 2-3 points. Furthermore, when doing a major mistake in a race and getting damage. Normally you might finish in 8th, but thanks to a lighter car you can maybe get up to 6th and gain 2 "ballast free" points.

Now you have a strategy that takes advantage of the ballast system, but its neither fun ot execute nor fair racing/competition. If the system penalize you from doing well and reward you for doing bad, a health competition is basically flawed.

One other thing. Mole is maybe the driver to beat. If I can manage to beat him but my car is 30kg lighter gives me absolutely zero satisfaction. But if I can beat him fair and square, I would be very happy. Whats the point of racing with a success penalization system.

Here is in my view a much better ballast handicap system. Simple and much fairer.
- 1-4th place in the championship race with 60kg ballast
- 5-8th place with 40kg
- 9-12th with 20kg
- 13-and up with none.

This could be implemented right away and using the quali result for the first race.

The field will be closer together and the racing, but the guy being the 10th fastest will probably not win any races. He will however have closer racing with the 6th fastest driver and 14th fastest driver ---- But the most important thing is that it will be a much fairer competition and finishing ahead over another driver would actually be satisfying.
Click to expand...

Can I make a suggestion?
As we are 12 hours from connect time, there isn't much that can be done. This is the first race of the season, so there is no ballast to be applied to anyone.
We can take a look at the ballast after the race. No promises mind.
Take your place on the grid tonight, enjoy the race and we can take it from there.
 
twistedfirework
Can I make a suggestion?
As we are 12 hours from connect time, there isn't much that can be done. This is the first race of the season, so there is no ballast to be applied to anyone.
We can take a look at the ballast after the race. No promises mind.
Click to expand...

100% agree on all the points you make.
 
If anyone is capable of working out everyone's points and ballast and as such the position that serves them best to finish in when everyone is so close and rivals positions can change in a split second (particularly in sprint races) and doing all of this whilst they're racing then good luck to them!

Paralysis by analysis IMO and pretty counter productive

If you take a step back and negate ballast for a second, there are already a number of reasons why you might not necessarily push for the highest finishing position possible in any given race, there is risk v's reward in so many situations. Ballast just adds one more thing to an already large list of things you may have to consider during a championship run and will not become the single overriding factor that trumps everything else.

Talking about not taking satisfaction from finishing ahead of someone in race when they are carrying a little more weight than you is fair enough in a single race championship. The satisfaction should come from beating your rivals over the course of the whole season when everyone involved has been subjected to the same rules and regs. Analysing single races in isolation is not the way to do it, none of the systems in place have been designed to be picked apart over a single race, they are designed to work over the course of a championship.

Would you take satisfaction in beating someone who picked up a penalty or accident damage? Probably not but hey the same thing could happen to you in the next race and when it does you'll still want to fight as hard as you can to minimise your losses. The same will apply to ballast.
 
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Scanny_Flick
If anyone is capable of working out everyone's points and ballast and as such the position that serves them best to finish in when everyone is so close and rivals positions can change in a split second (particularly in sprint races) and doing all of this whilst they're racing then good luck to them!

Paralysis by analysis IMO and pretty counter productive

If you take a step back and negate ballast for a second, there are already a number of reasons why you might not necessarily push for the highest finishing position possible in any given race, there is risk v's reward in so many situations. Ballast just adds one more thing to an already large list of things you may have to consider during a championship run and will not become the single overriding factor that trumps everything else.

Talking about not taking satisfaction from finishing ahead of someone in race when they are carrying a little more weight than you is fair enough in a single race championship. The satisfaction should come from beating your rivals over the course of the whole season when everyone involved has been subjected to the same rules and regs. Analysing single races in isolation is not the way to do it, none of the systems in place have been designed to be picked apart over a single race, they are designed to work over the course of a championship.

Would you take satisfaction in beating someone who picked up a penalty or accident damage? Probably not but hey the same thing could happen to you in the next race and when it does you'll still want to fight as hard as you can to minimise your losses. The same will apply to ballast.
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👍 Scanny

We are all starting with the same advantage/disadvantage right now. As the season progresses, it is your decision to race how you please. If you feel like 2nd or 3rd place will be more beneficial for you, I'd be more than happy for you to give me the easy pass. :sly: I say we keep the regulations just as they are now. Those that put this series together have spent a lot of time going over how it should be best organized and I don't believe we should spend the rest of the season modifying the rules. If you don't like it, take a note and bring it up next season.

I, for one, will be trying to win every race I can. Being that I am consistently mid pack, I will be grateful for every podium finish I can get. I do not expect to win the championship, but I do intend on doing the best I can to provide some sort of competition....if nothing else providing a little traffic for the rest of you to deal with. :sly:

As for getting qualified or not. We all have the same amount of time to find a steward to get us qualified. I for one have been regularly tardy getting myself qualified due to having a life of my own as well. If you are intending on getting qualified and are unable to find a steward in one of the rooms, please post in the appropriate thread. I am sure you will get a reply shortly to whom will be available to get you qualified. Please make sure to check all 4 rooms for participants, do not sit in a room and expect a steward to show up. If not, feel free to PM me or another steward and we can organize a time to make it happen. Obviously a PM sent less than 2-3 hours prior to the deadline can not be expected to be replied to. It is each of our responsibility to get qualified within the ample time allotted.
 
Scanny_Flick
Paralysis by analysis IMO and pretty counter productive
Click to expand...

Exactly, never in a million years could I imagine someone actually implementing such a strategy, there's too many variables, just... no.

I'd bet a lot of money against it.

Anyway, the handicap system you proposed is interesting John, but it will encourage people to strategically drop entire races so that they can drop a bit in the rankings in order to be better edged for the next round. Where our winner's weight, along with race completion bonus points, should encourage people to race every single race so that even if they don't place podium they'll shave off weight.

You act like this is a one on one championship in talking against the fun of racing someone with lots of ballast. You've got to remember that you still have lots of other people to compete with. The fun with this system is a larger picture than you're allowing yourself to see. It makes it so you look ahead to the next few races while figuring how much weight your rivals will have to contend with, it shuffles the grid into a more lively field, you're not rewarded for doing badly, you're simply given a better chance for the next race to even the score,

Just don't knock it till you try it. I'll guarantee you it'll change your outlook on the practice. I have tons of stories from our JGTS series of people that have been given the races of their lives because the faster drivers had ballast. Just because they're a bit slower doesn't mean the position is going to be any easier to gain.



(btw I highly disagree with the rule in the current ballast system that decrees that merely missing a race will allow you to drop weight, this is definitely NOT the way to go. Why you ask? Because it goes against the spirit of competition and allows people to, again, strategically miss races in order to lose weight.
You should have to complete at least 75% of the race distance and finish outside the top four in order to lose ballast.)
 
Hey, I'm happy just to be in the series. Talk about 'last-minute' Majik. Signed up this morning and qualified 5 minutes before deadline, with a car I've never really driven before. Used it for B-SPEC Endurance last year. Wish I could be driving a Nissan, but again, happy to be in the mix.

I'm with NEPALII; "meh" ;)
 
Yeah Tom, I still remember you well from the IS-F Cup.
 
Wardez
(btw I highly disagree with the rule in the current ballast system that decrees that merely missing a race will allow you to drop weight, this is definitely NOT the way to go. Why you ask? Because it goes against the spirit of competition and allows people to, again, strategically miss races in order to lose weight.
You should have to complete at least 75% of the race distance and finish outside the top four in order to lose ballast.)
Click to expand...

I think it was decided that to intentionally use a dropped round would be more of a disadvantage than what you would gain by losing 20kg's next time out
 
I agree with Stretch,
Race the first few races and see how it plays out.

I'm just looking forward to getting back to competitive racing
 
If you dont race tonight John im sending Cicua a torture device known as bagpipes and a scot who plays thems until you reconcider :sly::lol:.
 
Okay I have a quick question. In the official post for this weeks race it says that all drivers have to do one stint on racing mediums. However I remember that we were debating a while ago to use racing mediums for GT 500 only and sports soft for the GT 300.

So, I assume that the sports soft for the GT 300 were dropped and the GT 300 class has to use racing mediums as well since nothing is mentioned in the op regarding the usage of sports soft?
 
Troylee2601
Okay I have a quick question. In the official post for this weeks race it says that all drivers have to do one stint on racing mediums. However I remember that we were debating a while ago to use racing mediums for GT 500 only and sports soft for the GT 300.

So, I assume that the sports soft for the GT 300 were dropped and the GT 300 class has to use racing mediums as well since nothing is mentioned in the op regarding the usage of sports soft?
Click to expand...

Correct. 1 set of racing medium tyre's are allowed for ALL cars in ALL races. You don't have to use them, but you can if you wish. Only 1set though 👍
 
Scanny_Flick
I think it was decided that to intentionally use a dropped round would be more of a disadvantage than what you would gain by losing 20kg's next time out
Click to expand...

Especially for disconnects. You say people might try to play the system strategically, but we need to cater for disconnects and real life too.

Last season I had connection issues mid season, after having taken 2 wins and 1 second place, and having to miss a race due to real life. So 4 races in, it's gone pretty well, but I've used up a dropped round, and my car is now very heavy. But no problem really, because I still have a dropped round left and there's a long way to go, right?

Then Rounds 5 to 7; three disconnects in a row, I have now "used" both of my dropped rounds, and used a third and a fourth as well. I'm obviously well out of the running by this point, but I also came back to Round 8 (of 10) to still have 130kg of ballast (if my maths is correct). Absolutely no hope of making progress, because my car is weighted as if I were a championship contender.

Just saying :)

Looking forward to tonight, GT300 PAL is so close it's fantastic. And Johan, man up :sly: - I hope to be racing with you tonight.
 
Andil
Especially for disconnects. You say people might try to play the system strategically, but we need to cater for disconnects and real life too.

Last season I had connection issues mid season, after having taken 2 wins and 1 second place, and having to miss a race due to real life. So 4 races in, it's gone pretty well, but I've used up a dropped round, and my car is now very heavy. But no problem really, because I still have a dropped round left and there's a long way to go, right?

Then Rounds 5 to 7; three disconnects in a row, I have now "used" both of my dropped rounds, and used a third and a fourth as well. I'm obviously well out of the running by this point, but I also came back to Round 8 (of 10) to still have 130kg of ballast (if my maths is correct). Absolutely no hope of making progress, because my car is weighted as if I were a championship contender.

Just saying :)

Looking forward to tonight, GT300 PAL is so close it's fantastic. And Johan, man up :sly: - I hope to be racing with you tonight.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. Disconnections and dropped rounds do NOT remove ballast? Hmm, not sure if it is such a good idea. I know how frustrating it is to get disconnected and knowing you still have to race with ballast next week. Boy, I would explode. :lol:

On the other hand, if you are allowed to drop your ballast if you get disconnected or drop a round, this will be taken advantage of. Either way, put it shortly, it's crap! BUt this has nothing to do with how you set up the system. Not anyone's fault. Its the system itself that is flawed.

Honestly, Im not against or in favor of ballast like I said before, but to make things simpler, and to avoid as many issues as possible, I think dropping the ballast system altogether could be the way to go. Mole just gave a great example of a big issue that might arise during the season. I seriously hope to god I am not in that place or else its gonna get ugly.
 
Nep that was last season this season your minus 20kgs for every dropped round/disconnect yes?
 
hey, sorry to be a bit off the topic, but what does the 'waiting list' mean? i was slow in qualy for GT300 PAL, does that mean I am racing or not...? or am i just a reserve incase someone cant race or summink?

sorry if this has been answered elsewhere...

Cheers
 
NEPALII
This is interesting. Disconnections and dropped rounds do NOT remove ballast?
Click to expand...

Yes they do, it was decided some pages back, exactly to cover the disconnect issue. I think that is the right thing to do.

NEPALII
On the other hand, if you are allowed to drop your ballast if you get disconnected or drop a round, this will be taken advantage of.
Click to expand...

There is no advantage in sitting out. If you really try to lose ballast you should at least go for a 5th. And hope the gamble pays off later!

I am not going to spend my "drop" rounds prematurely. During a season there will be plenty of mistakes, disconnects, accidents and RL issues, that is when you will need them.
 
Oh must have missed it then. Sorry. Not sure if 20KG is enough, but better than nothing I guess. :)
 
NJ72
hey, sorry to be a bit off the topic, but what does the 'waiting list' mean? i was slow in qualy for GT300 PAL, does that mean I am racing or not...? or am i just a reserve incase someone cant race or summink?

sorry if this has been answered elsewhere...

Cheers
Click to expand...

You are on the reserve list for the top 12, however there will be a mixed class race for everyone on the waiting lists gt300 and gt500, there are the points to play for 13th to 16 th place, plus completion bonus points and the chance of 1 of the 3 fastest laps per class. I will post nearer the time who needs to be in which room.
If anyone else who didn't qualify wants to be added to the list please post here 👍
 
Droped rounds are more for real life events that take priority and is there to help (For eg last season I missed Indy Road Course due to being at Knockhill for the BTCC :D).
Doc (NJ72) it means that because of the bug instead of the 16 max we are meant to have its 12, so only 12 can race but we are concidering running those 13th and under in a mixed class event so you can all race :).

Edit: Twisted you 🤬... :lol:

Btw Doc sending you my setup I got my PB on help it helps.
 
NEPALII
This is interesting. Disconnections and dropped rounds do NOT remove ballast? Hmm, not sure if it is such a good idea. I know how frustrating it is to get disconnected and knowing you still have to race with ballast next week. Boy, I would explode. :lol:

On the other hand, if you are allowed to drop your ballast if you get disconnected or drop a round, this will be taken advantage of. Either way, put it shortly, it's crap! BUt this has nothing to do with how you set up the system. Not anyone's fault. Its the system itself that is flawed.

Honestly, Im not against or in favor of ballast like I said before, but to make things simpler, and to avoid as many issues as possible, I think dropping the ballast system altogether could be the way to go. Mole just gave a great example of a big issue that might arise during the season. I seriously hope to god I am not in that place or else its gonna get ugly.
Click to expand...

Nep what are you on about?? Chill out and read a little, please!!

Ballast will be dropped after missed races, whether it's a dropped round, a disconnection or whatever. That was agreed a long time ago and was in the ballast specs announced yesterday. We were only discussing it this morning because Eddie raised a question about it saying that it could be exploited but there doesn't appear to be any advantage to doing that so no drama!

What happened with your father last night after? All that fuss yesterday and he was nowhere to be seen last night ;-)

Or did the maintenance happen at your end as announced? It didn't seem to affect anyone in Europe in the end
 
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