Save the Manuals!

Wolfe · Mar 20, 2013

Eunos_Cosmo
I don't really think any proponent of manual gearboxes can put forth a sound, logical, argument with a long list of advantages for the manual trans, but the simple truth is that a considerable amount of people still prefer them.

It's a crooked request to ask for the advantages of the manual transmission, because automatics and SMGs/DCTs were invented to explore other solutions. It's their raison d'etre to offer advantages in certain aspects or situations. It's a little difficult, then, to establish manual's advantages because it was never really made to capitalize on any.

Ultimately, the "advantages" of manual are really just the disadvantages introduced by automatics, which I think is a more telling frame of reference. It's not about what manuals offer, but what automatics have taken away. I've already discussed those disadvantages with regards to my own driving needs and desires. Not everyone will necessarily be concerned with the same things, but again there's not just ONE "real answer" across the board. Not for individuals and their DDs, not for all types of motorsports, not for all forms of utility or work. There is no "best" transmission.

I don't think it's solely the romantic and the analytic at odds here. I do have a romantic relationship with manual transmission, but I strongly dislike automatics on an analytical basis.

homeforsummer
This I agree with...

...The stupid thing is, automatics should be ideal for small cars - particularly in Europe. Small cars are designed for shorter, usually city-bound, trafficked journey. I.e. a place where autos make lots of sense.

Meanwhile, the united states has a vast expanse of rolling plains with wide open, low-traffic roads, and everyone here drives automatic. :dopey:

Danoff · Mar 20, 2013

Wolfe
Ultimately, the "advantages" of manual are really just the disadvantages introduced by automatics, which I think is a more telling frame of reference. It's not about what manuals offer, but what automatics have taken away. I've already discussed those disadvantages with regards to my own driving needs and desires. Not everyone will necessarily be concerned with the same things, but again there's not just ONE "real answer" across the board. Not for individuals and their DDs, not for all types of motorsports, not for all forms of utility or work. There is no "best" transmission.

..except the DCT which, aside from price, is obviously the best transmission. Tell me again why you prefer a manual?

Wolfe · Mar 20, 2013

The clutch. Sorry to spoil your "gotcha" on picking gears.

I admit that once DCT is cheap enough and sturdy enough for all possible applications, it'll be the best. I've never held any grudge against DCT, I thought it was clever as hell when it was introduced. But I'm still not going to drive one as long as I can avoid it.

Greycap · Mar 20, 2013

I'll accept an automatic gearbox immediately when it can shift like I would in every situation. It'll probably require wires from my brain to the car though so I doubt I'll see that day. If I'm at high revs and coming into a corner I want to be able to lift the throttle and remain in the same gear instead of the transmission going from, say, 2nd to 5th as soon as I lift off and then back from 5th to 2nd when I hit the throttle hard again. On the other hand when I'm driving in traffic I want to be able to floor it from the traffic lights and then get the highest possible cruising gear as soon as I get to the desired speed.

The usual argument from the AT crowd is "use the manual mode" but that pretty much spoils the idea of an automatic transmission. If I want to control the shifts myself I'll drive a manual in the first place.

Having said that, I'd be happy to see the clutch pedal go. My idea of a perfect everyday transmission would be a H-pattern, preferably six gears, dogbox coupled to a torque converter with a locking speed of 1500 rpm or so. Standing starts would be taken care of by the torque converter and shifting while moving would be done without the clutch. Complete control over the gear selection, the smoothness of a torque converter for stop and go traffic and direct drive for the rest of the time.

Danoff · Mar 20, 2013

Greycap
The usual argument from the AT crowd is "use the manual mode" but that pretty much spoils the idea of an automatic transmission. If I want to control the shifts myself I'll drive a manual in the first place.

The manual mode exists for the 1% of the time you want to shift for yourself. The automatic mode exists for the other 99% of the time. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

niky · Mar 20, 2013

The H-Pattern is nice, because you can tell by feel what gear you're in... unless you have a six speed gearbox with a floppy stick, in which case it's a fifty-fifty proposition, or a seven-speed box where the gate spacing is so tight you actually need to stop doing anything else so you can concentrate on threading the needle into the proper detent first...

-

For a sportscar... +/- paddles or a sequential box with a bang-it-in lever will do.

phil bell
I too agree. A Toyota Vios with a stick is alot nicer than the auto.

Roasting on an open fire, with marshmallows, too?

BrutherSuperior · Mar 21, 2013

Danoff
The manual mode exists for the 1% of the time you want to shift for yourself. The automatic mode exists for the other 99% of the time. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Sounds like you've read a brochure.

Manual mode is almost as cumbersome as turning off the TC or turning "Sport" mode on. But unlike those 2 nagging features that require you to always push a button, when it's usually too late, to activate/deactivate a feature...manual mode isn't instant.

Still takes a bit of time to shift. But the most irritating thing is it will not downshift when you want it to and they usually will not hold a gear. With that, what hell is the point?

I'll tell you; it's another checkmark in a feature box (standard or part of a package) that the marketers deemed necessary b/c some other company did it. This feature is almost useless and I don't even know why it's on many cars other than "they could". Given the choice, I don't think people would spring an extra $500 to have it...but it's a choice that's often made by the OEMs and not the consumer.

In short; I still think autoboxes suck. Perhaps that is the wrong word. Let's say, for me anyway, that the aggravation of the transmission not doing exactly what I want outweighs any sort of convenience self-shifting transmissions may offer. If we're talking durability, it's a no-brainer; manuals are much more durable.

The real test will be how DCT/automatics w/flappy paddles/manual mode slush box equipped cars will do in the used market compared to manual equipped cars of the same model. VW's GTI, BMW's M3, & Porsche 997's - those 3 models cover a lot of price points, potential buyers, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that 10 years/100,000 miles on, the manual cars will have a higher market price. Any takers?

McLaren · Mar 21, 2013

BrutherSuperior
The real test will be how DCT/automatics w/flappy paddles/manual mode slush box equipped cars will do in the used market compared to manual equipped cars of the same model. VW's GTI, BMW's M3, & Porsche 997's - those 3 models cover a lot of price points, potential buyers, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that 10 years/100,000 miles on, the manual cars will have a higher market price. Any takers?

The only way you could hope to price a manual-equipped car higher than the auto-equipped one of similarly packaged cars is if you have enough of a market of manual enthusiasts that make up the majority of buyers. And any idiot knows that's not the case with M3s & 997s; DCT/PDK-equipped cars make up the majority; that's what people want.

Rotary Junkie · Mar 21, 2013

Am I the only person in the world who hates DCTs?

Mazda's current 6-speed auto (CX-5, 3, 6) is amazing; manual shifts happen now, downshifts get perfectly rev-matched, and aside from not being able to overrev on downshifts (oh and you can't drop to 1st if it'd have you above about 5000rpm) it listens. Want to smack limiter? Sure thing.

MEANWHILE AT VW... DSGs feel clunky on launch, I don't particularly like the way they shift, they're slow as hell to kick down in auto, etc etc. Oh and manual mode is both backwards and pointless.

My choice of manual vs auto depends entirely on the car and what I'm going to use it for, but I don't find DCTs in the running whatsoever as none I've driven have done anything but annoy me.

phil bell · Mar 21, 2013

Rotary Junkie
Am I the only person in the world who hates DCTs?

Mazda's current 6-speed auto (CX-5, 3, 6) is amazing; manual shifts happen now, downshifts get perfectly rev-matched, and aside from not being able to overrev on downshifts (oh and you can't drop to 1st if it'd have you above about 5000rpm) it listens. Want to smack limiter? Sure thing.

MEANWHILE AT VW... DSGs feel clunky on launch, I don't particularly like the way they shift, they're slow as hell to kick down in auto, etc etc. Oh and manual mode is both backwards and pointless.

My choice of manual vs auto depends entirely on the car and what I'm going to use it for, but I don't find DCTs in the running whatsoever as none I've driven have done anything but annoy me.

Thats comparing a good auto to a so-so DSG/DCT. In the end it's the calibration and I would wager a well calibrated DSG/DCT is on an equal level with a well calibrated Auto.

Danoff · Mar 21, 2013

BrutherSuperior
Sounds like you've read a brochure.

Manual mode is almost as cumbersome as turning off the TC or turning "Sport" mode on. But unlike those 2 nagging features that require you to always push a button, when it's usually too late, to activate/deactivate a feature...manual mode isn't instant.

I use it all the time. It requires taking a stick and moving toward me and upward. That's it. Yes it takes about a half-second to shift, which is a bit of lag, but I do it in anticipation of needing it - much like I would for a manual. For street driving, it takes roughly as much time as I would take to downshift in a manual, but I'm not busy moving my feet and rev-matching, so I notice the passage of time more with the manumatic mode.

There is nothing cumbersome about it. You need to practice with it, so that it because second nature when you want to use it. Here are the main three times I use it during regular driving (obviously I use it while doing spirited driving on an empty winding road).

Scenario 1:
- Stuck behind a semi-truck doing 50 mph when the rest of the traffic is doing 80. I need to make up 30 mph and there are no large gaps.
- Manumatic downshift while behind the semi and checking my mirror
- There's the gap, punch it. Power is there instantly because the downshift occurred before I needed it, the pains of an automatic transmission averted completely.

Scenario 2:
- Approaching an sharp turn to uphill climb where I need to accelerate hard.
- Brake for turn, manumatic downshift under braking while approaching the turn.
- Turn in in the right gear for exiting the turn.
- Gas as I exit the turn. Power is there instantly, the pains of an automatic transmission averted completely.

Scenario 3:
- Lots of long steep downhill driving when I'm concerned about brakes overheating. I'll use the manual to downshift to engine brake and take some of the stress off of the braking system. This is very very rare and pretty much only happens on the 70 through the rockies.

Here's when I use the automatic and don't bother with the manual mode:
Scenario 1: Traffic
Scenario 2: Cruising
Scenario 3: Slow, crowded city streets
Scenario 4: Stoplights
Scenario 5: Stop Signs
Scenario 6: Parking lots
Scenario 7: Any time I start from stop
Scenario 8: When my wife drives the car
Scenario 9: When I have passengers I want to keep comfortable
Scenario 10: Sleeping baby
Scenario 11: Following someone
Scenario 12: 99% of the time I'm driving.

It's a tool that's important to be ready to use when you want it. It should be second nature, not something you think about. It's just some thing you do - like driving a manual. My biggest complaint about the manumatic mode is that some car companies get the downshift direction wrong (I'm looking at you Acura).

BrutherSuperior
Still takes a bit of time to shift. But the most irritating thing is it will not downshift when you want it to and they usually will not hold a gear. With that, what hell is the point?

I don't know what car you're talking about, but that isn't a problem on any of the cars I've driven. It will remove you of your gear if you decide to do something stupid - like start from a stop in 5th gear or floor it at the redline - otherwise I've never had an issue with this.

BrutherSuperior
I'll tell you; it's another checkmark in a feature box (standard or part of a package) that the marketers deemed necessary b/c some other company did it. This feature is almost useless and I don't even know why it's on many cars other than "they could". Given the choice, I don't think people would spring an extra $500 to have it...but it's a choice that's often made by the OEMs and not the consumer.

I would. It's an essential feature on an automatic. It eliminates 99% of all complaints with the automatic for daily driving.

phil bell
Thats comparing a good auto to a so-so DSG/DCT. In the end it's the calibration and I would wager a well calibrated DSG/DCT is on an equal level with a well calibrated Auto.

A well calibrated DSG/DCT is far superior to a well calibrated auto or manual.

BrutherSuperior · Mar 21, 2013

McLaren
The only way you could hope to price a manual-equipped car higher than the auto-equipped one of similarly packaged cars is if you have enough of a market of manual enthusiasts that make up the majority of buyers. And any idiot knows that's not the case with M3s & 997s; DCT/PDK-equipped cars make up the majority; that's what people want.

Any idiot does know...good thing I'm not an idiot.

Manual enthusiasts may actually make up the majority of buyers. Without question, leasees make up the majority of automatic equipped cars. Do you need an explanation of the difference between buying a car and leasing one? There will be those who buy and keep said car for a decade or until the proverbial wheels fall off. My bet is "wheels falling off" is a euphemism for the transmission failing.

You don't lease a car for 10 years/120,000 miles...but many own cars that long and with that kind of mileage. While this "experiment" is long term, I'm pretty confident that the residual value of manual equipped cars will be significantly higher than autos. Partly b/c of demand and partly b/c of durability; a clutch will be a lot less expensive to replace than the whole damn DCT.

Danoff · Mar 21, 2013

BrutherSuperior
Without question, leasees make up the majority of automatic equipped cars.

Not possible. You have misstated that. I need a citation.

Leases make up a tiny fraction of the cars on the road. If they were the majority of automatic equipped cars, the VAST majority of cars on the road would be manual and this thread would not exist.

Joey D · Mar 21, 2013

BrutherSuperior
a clutch will be a lot less expensive to replace than the whole damn DCT.

You can replace a clutch in a DCT. Ford has already replaced mine under warranty and a few people on the Focus forums manage to destroy theirs by acting like idiots. They weren't that expensive to replace either, $500 with parts and labor. I suspect a clutch job on a manual is similar in price at the dealer.

And I think it's amusing you think a majority of cars on the road are leased. You know there was a couple year span during the automotive meltdown where there wasn't even an option to lease a car right?

Wolfe · Mar 21, 2013

Danoff
...the pains of an automatic transmission averted completely...

...It's an essential feature on an automatic. It eliminates 99% of all complaints with the automatic for daily driving.

Wouldn't sliding into "D" (as opposed to "OD") or "4" or "3" in a normal, non-manumatic transmission accomplish the same thing in each of your examples? Forcing the transmission to wait in a lower gear until you're ready to accelerate, or engine brake? It doesn't seem much better than just stomping the gas when you're ready for the double-downshift, either. The delayed windup really gets on my nerves, but you can predict it just like the sluggish "manual" shifts, right?

I maintain that picking a gear really isn't the point, and "asking" for a gear change like you can do with manumatics/automatics hardly makes up for anything. The hardware that connects the engine to the transmission is what's important, IMO -- it's one of the most critical links between your right foot and the drive wheels. That's why I respect DCTs, because they make the right choice in using a clutch. Lockups on torque converters aren't good enough. If DCT kills the torque converter once and for all, I'll be cheering it on!

The issue I have with DCTs on a personal level is that they lose a few of the benefits of manual in the name of convenience, and I don't care about or need that convenience. No more bump-starting because someone left the dome light on and killed the battery. Less control of power delivery in slick conditions. Multiple manual downshifts instead of a single skip-shift. And yes, I think it's great fun to clutch and row an H-gate around.

Danoff · Mar 21, 2013

Wolfe
Wouldn't sliding into "D" (as opposed to "OD") or "4" or "3" in a normal, non-manumatic transmission accomplish the same thing in each of your examples?

I used to do that with my honda accord. I'd throw the center lever into D3 to pass, and pull it back into D when I was done. But you have to be careful or you'll get two shifts if you stomp on the gas after having moved to D3. Say you're in 4th and you want 3rd, but the car can technically do 2nd at the speed you're going. Putting it in D3 doesn't preclude 2nd gear. Manumatic avoids this.

Wolfe
Forcing the transmission to wait in a lower gear until you're ready to accelerate, or engine brake? It doesn't seem much better than just stomping the gas when you're ready for the double-downshift, either.

It's far far better, because you don't have to modulate throttle to change gear. It means i don't have to guess how long the transmission will take to shift, or how much stomping will be required to achieve the downshift I want. It also means I don't have to wait. If I want to hit the gas at a particular place in a turn, or at a particular break in traffic, I want the gear already selected, I don't want to wait a few more beats before I get the gear I want.

It is far better - an important technique for driving an automatic. If you're not doing it, you're not doing it right.

Wolfe
The delayed windup really gets on my nerves, but you can predict it just like the sluggish "manual" shifts, right?

It's only a problem if you wait to the last second to shift. If you shift a beat beforehand, the delayed windup (which takes about as long as a casual manual downshift) is no problem whatsoever.

Wolfe
If DCT kills the torque converter once and for all, I'll be cheering it on!

I guess on that we can find common ground.

Wolfe
The issue I have with DCTs on a personal level is that they lose a few of the benefits of manual in the name of convenience, and I don't care about or need that convenience. No more bump-starting because someone left the dome light on and killed the battery. Less control of power delivery in slick conditions. Multiple manual downshifts instead of a single skip-shift. And yes, I think it's great fun to clutch and row an H-gate around.

Skipping a gear shouldn't be necessary. If you're approaching a situation like that, you ought to have enough time to go sequentially down through the gears (like a formula 1 driver) instead of waiting to the last second and going from 5th to 2nd.

The bump-start is nice when you need it. I think I used it once across all of the manuals I've owned. But if I lose that in exchange for the benefits of the DCT, that's an easy easy trade. Something I almost never do in exchange for a better every-second driving experience? Yes please.

homeforsummer · Mar 21, 2013

Greycap
The usual argument from the AT crowd is "use the manual mode" but that pretty much spoils the idea of an automatic transmission. If I want to control the shifts myself I'll drive a manual in the first place.

Have to say, this is something else I sort of agree with.

As part of my job I'll often drive autos, of all types. Invariably, these have a manual mode of some sort. In the course of a drive, I'll usually play around with it for about five minutes for journalism's sake, and spend the whole rest of the time in auto.

I mean, I've not yet driven something like a Ferrari with a super-fast DCT, and maybe the paddles are enough fun on those that you'd use them most of the time. But generally, if I'm driving an auto I want it to do the work for me. That's the point!

Exception: The smart fortwo. Manually shifting using the paddles is far quicker and smoother than leaving the single-clutch auto to its own devices.

Also, pet peeve: CVTs with artificial "gear changes". A stepless transmission with artificial steps? AAARRRGGHHH!

Rotary Junkie
Am I the only person in the world who hates DCTs?

Mazda's current 6-speed auto (CX-5, 3, 6) is amazing; manual shifts happen now, downshifts get perfectly rev-matched, and aside from not being able to overrev on downshifts (oh and you can't drop to 1st if it'd have you above about 5000rpm) it listens. Want to smack limiter? Sure thing.

MEANWHILE AT VW... DSGs feel clunky on launch, I don't particularly like the way they shift, they're slow as hell to kick down in auto, etc etc. Oh and manual mode is both backwards and pointless.

My choice of manual vs auto depends entirely on the car and what I'm going to use it for, but I don't find DCTs in the running whatsoever as none I've driven have done anything but annoy me.

I've had no issues with VAG DCTs yet, though they apparently vary from car to car. Last one I drove, in a Skoda Octavia, was excellent. Shifts were imperceptible, was very responsive, and the different driving modes all did exactly what you'd expect. In Sport it gave you nice blipped downchanges when you braked, and this was on a diesel!

Oddly, the other most recent DCT I've driven was another diesel, an Alfa Romeo Giulietta. Worked really well. Mainly down to the great throttle response - something I've mentioned before in this thread, which I find more important than the transmission itself.

I'd agree though, some regular torque converters are getting pretty damn good. BMW's latest lot are amazing - as smooth as you'd want an auto to be, but as quick as any DCT.

Danoff · Mar 21, 2013

homeforsummer
Have to say, this is something else I sort of agree with.

As part of my job I'll often drive autos, of all types. Invariably, these have a manual mode of some sort. In the course of a drive, I'll usually play around with it for about five minutes for journalism's sake, and spend the whole rest of the time in auto.

I mean, I've not yet driven something like a Ferrari with a super-fast DCT, and maybe the paddles are enough fun on those that you'd use them most of the time. But generally, if I'm driving an auto I want it to do the work for me. That's the point!

No. The point is for it to eliminate the work you don't want to do. There are still shifts that you'll want to make on your own. It's not an all or nothing proposition. The manual mode is something you should be comfortable moving into and out of for a single shift a few times per drive. It's a tool. There's nothing about it that says you have to use it exclusively or not at all.

Honestly if there is one thing that I want to convey to you guys in this thread it is this: use the manual mode for automatics for specific scenarios and then switch back to auto. Treat it like a part of the controls that you need to learn how to use rather than being lazy and ignoring it. It will make all the difference in the world.

"Why would I double clutch heel-toe? Synchros exist to do the job for me, that's their point. If I wanted to heel-toe I'd have bought a car without synchros."

"Why would I want to tint my windows. Being able to see through them is the point. If I wanted to not be able to see through my windows I'd have bought a submarine."

Learn how to drive an automatic folks.

Edit:

Honestly this response is raising my blood pressure a bit. I'd hate for car manufacturers to stop offering a manumatic mode in their autos simply because people were too lazy or too stubborn to learn how to use them effectively.

Edit #2:

Please tell me I'm not the only person in this thread who knows how to properly drive both automatic and manual transmissions.

Wolfe · Mar 21, 2013

Danoff
Putting it in D3 doesn't preclude 2nd gear. Manumatic avoids this...

...If I want to hit the gas at a particular place in a turn, or at a particular break in traffic, I want the gear already selected, I don't want to wait a few more beats before I get the gear I want.

Okay, fair enough.

Danoff
Skipping a gear shouldn't be necessary. If you're approaching a situation like that, you ought to have enough time to go sequentially down through the gears (like a formula 1 driver) instead of waiting to the last second and going from 5th to 2nd.

I can think of examples. Say I'm caught up behind a pickup truck with a trailer carefully plodding along at 35mph on a 55mph road -- at which speed 5th gear is comfortable in my car -- and they unexpectedly slow down and turn onto a side road without a signal, leaving me at idle RPM in 5th. I'd prefer to just go straight to 2nd.

Danoff
The bump-start is nice when you need it. I think I used it once across all of the manuals I've owned. But if I lose that in exchange for the benefits of the DCT, that's an easy easy trade. Something I almost never do in exchange for a better every-second driving experience? Yes please.

On the flip side, if I switched to DCT I'd be trading my currently-better driving experience for needing to call for help if no one is around to give me a jump. Total lose-lose on that deal. Having driven manual for so long -- including a period where my BMW had intermittent alternator issues -- and then having been stranded in the middle of nowhere in someone else's automatic with a dead battery, I really don't take that benefit lightly.

Sitting around knowing you'd already be on your way if the car just had the transmission you'd prefer to have in the first place...I have some non-AUP-friendly words for that.

Murcie_LP640 · Mar 21, 2013

Danoff
Edit #2:

Please tell me I'm not the only person in this thread who knows how to properly drive both automatic and manual transmissions.

Of course not. Personally though I believe you're giving the "sports mode" on autos more credit than they actually need. Holding it in 1st or 2nd will probably be useful for off-roading in my dad's Pathfinder Ti 550 with a 7-speed dual-clutch transmission but on the road it's just adding something to do to something that the auto can do by itself in the exact same amount of time. On the open road for overtaking you either chuck it in SM and chuck it down a gear or put your foot down and it changes down anyway in the same amount of time, same with encountering steep hills. So why use the sports mode?

My dad only uses sports mode when he wants to try and look like a hero punching the stick back and forth trying to keep up with my manual WRX.

Wolfe · Mar 21, 2013

Danoff
Honestly this response is raising my blood pressure a bit. I'd hate for car manufacturers to stop offering a manumatic mode in their autos simply because people were too lazy or too stubborn to learn how to use them effectively.

Now you know how manual drivers feel.

BrutherSuperior · Mar 21, 2013

Joey D
You can replace a clutch in a DCT. Ford has already replaced mine under warranty and a few people on the Focus forums manage to destroy theirs by acting like idiots. They weren't that expensive to replace either, $500 with parts and labor. I suspect a clutch job on a manual is similar in price at the dealer.

Talk to me when your car is older and the transmission doesn't shift right. I really doubt that the long-term ownership costs of manual v. autobox are equal when it comes to servicing and repairing the transmission. It'll be interesting to see how these sorts of cars do a generation or 2 on (7-10 years).

Joey D
And I think it's amusing you think a majority of cars on the road are leased. You know there was a couple year span during the automotive meltdown where there wasn't even an option to lease a car right?

I find it more amusing that you think the majority of the cars on the road are GTIs, M3s, and 911's. Sucks you have a Focus then...

Danoff · Mar 21, 2013

Wolfe
I can think of examples. Say I'm caught up behind a pickup truck with a trailer carefully plodding along at 35mph on a 55mph road -- at which speed 5th gear is comfortable in my car -- and they unexpectedly slow down and turn onto a side road without a signal, leaving me at idle RPM in 5th. I'd prefer to just go straight to 2nd.

Downshift as you slow if you want to be in control. If the DCT is in auto it will handle this perfectly fine.

Wolfe
On the flip side, if I switched to DCT I'd be trading my currently-better driving experience for needing to call for help if no one is around to give me a jump. Total lose-lose on that deal.

It's a worse driving experience, but one which you prefer because you're used to it.

Murcie_LP640
Of course not. Personally though I believe you're giving the "sports mode" on autos more credit than they actually need. Holding it in 1st or 2nd will probably be useful for off-roading in my dad's Pathfinder Ti 550 with a 7-speed dual-clutch transmission but on the road it's just adding something to do to something that the auto can do by itself in the exact same amount of time. On the open road for overtaking you either chuck it in SM and chuck it down a gear or put your foot down and it changes down anyway in the same amount of time, same with encountering steep hills. So why use the sports mode?

My dad only uses sports mode when he wants to try and look like a hero punching the stick back and forth trying to keep up with my manual WRX.

There are many many times when the manual mode is an important component of driving (I created a thread on this topic just now). It is less of an important component in a powerful car that can overcome whatever gear you're in. In an under powered 4 cylinder it can be essential.

Wolfe
Now you know how manual drivers feel.

I am a manual driver. I've driven/owned enough of them. They're antiquated. It's not a feature that's eliminated because people are too lazy to learn how to use it properly, it's a feature that's eliminated because DCTs do it better in every way.

Joey D · Mar 21, 2013

BrutherSuperior
Talk to me when your car is older and the transmission doesn't shift right. I really doubt that the long-term ownership costs of manual v. autobox are equal when it comes to servicing and repairing the transmission. It'll be interesting to see how these sorts of cars do a generation or 2 on (7-10 years).

It didn't shift right, that's why they replaced the clutch pack. The Getrag transmission that Ford put in the early build cars wasn't calibrated correctly and caused some damage. New clutch pack and a reprogram fixed everything.

Even then I don't keep a car long enough to worry about that anyway, so that point is moot to me.

BrutherSuperior
I find it more amusing that you think the majority of the cars on the road are GTIs, M3s, and 911's. Sucks you have a Focus then...

I don't, so I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, but whatever you obviously know everything...you know like how a Chevy Volt is the same car as the Daewoo Matiz .

But since you already know everything and are obviously some automotive mastermind, you'll be able to produce some well documented evidence that a majority of cars on the road are leased and that all of those cars are automatics.

This article is from May of 2012, but still pretty relevant:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20120307/FINANCE_AND_INSURANCE/120309904/1142#axzz2ODI5o43Q

According to Auto News in 2010 leasing accounted for 23.7% of all new vehicles and in Q4 of 2011 it accounted for 23.1%. It goes one to say that leasing will probably remain around the 20 percent mark. So if what you said was true than over 75% of vehicles sold in 2010 were manuals, and I can pretty much assure you that they weren't.

Oh and, ow, you hurt me by saying it sucks I own a Focus. I'm going to go cry now.

Wolfe · Mar 21, 2013

Danoff
It's a worse driving experience, but one which you prefer because you're used to it.

How needlessly intolerant. :odd:

Danoff
I am a manual driver. I've driven/owned enough of them. They're antiquated. It's not a feature that's eliminated because people are too lazy to learn how to use it properly, it's a feature that's eliminated because DCTs do it better in every way.

How needlessly scornful. Seriously, your earlier quote applies word-for-word to how advocates of manual transmissions feel. If you have no sympathy for that, I have no sympathy for you and your manumatic mode. :indiff:

Murcie_LP640 · Mar 21, 2013

Danoff
There are many many times when the manual mode is an important component of driving (I created a thread on this topic just now). It is less of an important component in a powerful car that can overcome whatever gear you're in. In an under powered 4 cylinder it can be essential.

I'd certainly hate to imagine what life would be like if my Suzuki Sierra was an automatic, sports shift mode or not. Even in the right gear, underpowered 4-cylinders will still be underpowered 4-cylinders.

Danoff
I am a manual driver. I've driven/owned enough of them. They're antiquated. It's not a feature that's eliminated because people are too lazy to learn how to use it properly, it's a feature that's eliminated because DCTs do it better in every way.

You keep mentioning DCTs...interesting fact though that automatics (here, anyway) still outsold manuals in most popular models when the DSG was still in its infancy and the automatic was seen by many as the "inferior" transmission. The DCT transmission has simply accentuated the sales difference because they're now the better transmissions. Make of that what you will.

Joey D · Mar 21, 2013

Murcie_LP640
You keep mentioning DCTs...interesting fact though that automatics (here, anyway) still outsold manuals in most popular models when the DSG was still in its infancy and the automatic was seen by many as the "inferior" transmission. The DCT transmission has simply accentuated the sales difference because they're now the better transmissions. Make of that what you will.

It's because a vast majority of car buyers don't need a manual in a car. I mean if all your car is, is an appliance to you, why make it any more involved then it needs to be. Those who are automotive enthusiast and care about what they drive are a significantly smaller number than those who just want a beige Camry because it's safe and gets good mileage.

Danoff · Mar 21, 2013

Wolfe
How needlessly intolerant.

Is it not true? Take a good hard look at it for a second and tell me you don't cling to the manual simply because you're used to it. It's not because you're worried your battery will die. It's not because skipping gears is important. If it's price, fine, I can accept that. On a website where so many covet only the most expensive latest greatest most powerful technologically advanced vehicles in the world, price is the reason for the transmission choice... really? Is that what you're going with?

So tell me honestly that I'm wrong.

Wolfe
How needlessly scornful. Seriously, your earlier quote applies word-for-word to how advocates of manual transmissions feel.

Feel being the operative word. And why do they feel that way? See above.

BrutherSuperior · Mar 21, 2013

Joey D
But since you already know everything and are obviously some automotive mastermind, you'll be able to produce some well documented evidence that a majority of cars on the road are leased and that all of those cars are automatics.

I used to pay nearly $15,000 annually for just for licensing to buy/sell/repair cars. I used to regularly attend the circus which is Mannheim. So I'm a little more versed in the used car market than...say...a valet.

While I've moved on to greener pastures, you're more than welcome to send me a certified check to renew my licensing and see the auctions for yourself if not having "proof" is too unbearable for you.

Joey D
This article is from May of 2012, but still pretty relevant:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20120307/FINANCE_AND_INSURANCE/120309904/1142#axzz2ODI5o43Q

According to Auto News in 2010 leasing accounted for 23.7% of all new vehicles and in Q4 of 2011 it accounted for 23.1%. It goes one to say that leasing will probably remain around the 20 percent mark. So if what you said was true than over 75% of vehicles sold in 2010 were manuals, and I can pretty much assure you that they weren't.

Oh and, ow, you hurt me by saying it sucks I own a Focus. I'm going to go cry now.

From your own link;

"Leasing also remains high for luxury import captives such as Mercedes-Benz Financial, at 64 percent leasing in the fourth quarter; or BMW Financial Services, at 62 percent leasing, according to Experian."

...so yes, it's pretty relevant when we're talking GTIs, M3s, and 911s.

When you're done crying over your former Focus ownership, please read the whole article b/c you look like a fool. I'll even mail you a cookie if you can spot the 1 metric that article forgets to mention. (hint; rhymes with "meat")

And I still think the Chevy Cruise, Volt, Sonic, and Spark are Daewoos marketing and PR be damned.

Danoff · Mar 21, 2013

BrutherSuperior
I used to pay nearly $15,000 annually for just for licensing to buy/sell/repair cars. I used to regularly attend the circus which is Mannheim. So I'm a little more versed in the used car market than...say...a valet.

None of that means you can throw around something like this:

you
Without question, leasees make up the majority of automatic equipped cars.

...which is almost certainly incorrect without substantiating it. I'm still waiting for your citation.

Save the Manuals!

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