- 4,605
- United States
- carracerptp
Thanks
Why top GTA times show no finesse at all?
- Thread starter luizsaluti
- 272 comments
- 18,798 views
- 5,351
- United States
- kudos00
lol. This sucks.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Thanks
I'm gunning for you by the way...only problem is I only have a cap gun when what I really need is a .44 Magnum!!!
- 2,858
- Australia
Perhaps it is not as black and white a scenario as most/all of you seem to be viewing it as. If the perfect time would be achieved by pushing as hard as is technically possible with no tyre slip, an almost perfect time would be achieved by shifting a little to one side or the other. Ie. not pushing quite as hard, or not quite having no tyre slip.
In real life people would generally push toward perfection from one side for fear of death and fire, in a game it is quite safe to push from the other.
In real life people would generally push toward perfection from one side for fear of death and fire, in a game it is quite safe to push from the other.
- 1,983
- Ohio
- IceManPJN
- IceMan PJN
crcn11
Discussing ways of dealing with what we've been given is fine, but at the same time we need open criticism. We should never start shrugging off issues or closing our eyes and pretending they aren't there because if nobody complains then PD will never hear about it.
"It's not like they're going to see this or that topic to see the complaints anyways." Any given topic has a poor chance of them seeing it, but if a million players vocalize it in enough topics in enough places, sooner or later it's bound to get back to them. This is why more complains of the same issues is better than mentioning it rarely and otherwise ignoring it.
It's said that necessity is the mother of invention. Similarly, criticism could be the father of improvement.
- 2,790
- Vancouver, BC
- liampage123
If you can slide into a corner without smoke, your flying.
- 169
Here is what I hear..."PD can do no wrong, the physics are exemplary and any issue is down to the driver, not PDs masterpiece. That couldn't be possible".
Show me any real driver driving as people are doing in this demo whilst trying to lap as quickly as possible and you may have a point.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 4,741
- Bogota,Colombia
- GTP_ARP93
Hillclimb, rallying and motorsport from 50 years ago are not proper arguments.
In hillclimb and tarmac rallies, cars are thrown around like so because it's the fastest way around such tight corners, corners where the track width is so narrow it can't be taken with an out-in-out racing line or anything like that. It's an extreme situation that I don't think is present in any racetrack. It requires extreme finesse because it's not as simple as just pulling the handbrake and turn the wheel full lock, it requires the driver to fit the car in the exact space between the edges of the track, usually between trees and an armco barrier.
In the case of old time motorsports, sliding round corners was unavoidable because tyres were really primitive back then. Your typical road car has more grip than F1 tyres of the pre-war times. They were essentially overpowered go-karts for the fearless to fight round corners. The driving technique of yesteryear can't be compared with the one that is used nowadays because the tyres can't be compared, modern race cars have tyres at least two times wider and multiple times stickier than the ones back then.
Defend it as you want, but the point is that no one in a real life GT race car qualifies like this. Fastest lap times in circuit racing aren't done this way in real life, or else you'd see the GT-Pro cars at Le Mans having a dorifto contest at every corner of La Sarthe.
In the first five minutes of the video I haven't seen a single car break traction and go full drift other than the orange (?) E30 BMW. From the Opels, to the Zyteks, to the Lancias, to the Alpines, everyone did their best to keep the car planted and the tyres gripping. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ok, by the 8th minute there's another BMW drifting but it doesn't look like it goes as fast as others round the same corner.
In hillclimb and tarmac rallies, cars are thrown around like so because it's the fastest way around such tight corners, corners where the track width is so narrow it can't be taken with an out-in-out racing line or anything like that. It's an extreme situation that I don't think is present in any racetrack. It requires extreme finesse because it's not as simple as just pulling the handbrake and turn the wheel full lock, it requires the driver to fit the car in the exact space between the edges of the track, usually between trees and an armco barrier.
In the case of old time motorsports, sliding round corners was unavoidable because tyres were really primitive back then. Your typical road car has more grip than F1 tyres of the pre-war times. They were essentially overpowered go-karts for the fearless to fight round corners. The driving technique of yesteryear can't be compared with the one that is used nowadays because the tyres can't be compared, modern race cars have tyres at least two times wider and multiple times stickier than the ones back then.
Defend it as you want, but the point is that no one in a real life GT race car qualifies like this. Fastest lap times in circuit racing aren't done this way in real life, or else you'd see the GT-Pro cars at Le Mans having a dorifto contest at every corner of La Sarthe.
In the first five minutes of the video I haven't seen a single car break traction and go full drift other than the orange (?) E30 BMW. From the Opels, to the Zyteks, to the Lancias, to the Alpines, everyone did their best to keep the car planted and the tyres gripping. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ok, by the 8th minute there's another BMW drifting but it doesn't look like it goes as fast as others round the same corner.
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- 591
- London, UK
- TAM-Spencer
I agree, titech heads up the leader board again, with a whole bunch of the usual suspects such as phenicks and rossi etc. etc. , if its just luck why is it always the same names, there may be a real life racing job at the end of it so go get the fastest time if its just a matter of wildy throwing it into a corner.
Im not saying the physics are perfect, but this isnt what your arguing here, all thats happening here is waa waa waa the physics are wrong because i cant go quick.
Stop moaning and go practice.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Here's your correction...watch the whole video...lol.
I don't think it's that easy to dismiss hillclimbers and older cars. Driving by drifting the back end a bit on entry and exit if necessary is a fast way around a track or course in some conditions, generally where there is little downforce to be affected by getting the car sideways and where the HP of the car isn't so high that stepping on the throttle completely overpowers the tires. Another factor is tire wear, a nonfactor in GT, but a real factor in real life racing. You'll have much higher tire wear in todays high performance race cars driving this way. In old open wheelers their tires lasted the entire race and in hill climb they need only last a few km's most of the time.
That's not to say the physics are perfect because they are not. There should be more of a penalty speedwise and in terms of tire wear, for putting the car into over and understeer. As it is now, there is little cost to either unless it's extreme. I know when I get tired of driving I tend to start forcing the car with huge amounts of understeer by overturning the wheel and my times start to drop but not by much. At Silverstone I can overcrank the wheel on almost every corner and it's worth about a seconds time.
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- 23,800
- Philippines
Generally, the fastest line in a rally is done with the least amount of angle and sliding.
People use a lot of angle because it gives them options. If the curve tightens, they're pointed the right way. If it eases up, instead, they can still straighten out.
Doing the fastest line, going for the least angle, if you've got the curve right, you're faster than the guy with more angle. If you've got the curve wrong, you are missing the apex by a mile and will have to slow down to get turned in.
Over an unfamiliar course, the classic sideways entry will statistically pan out better. But if you've reconnoitered the course and know what's what, the more measured entry (look up videos of Petter Solberg) is much, much faster.
If you're going around the same course lap after lap after lap, you will eventually find more speed (in real life) by taking it properly.
People use a lot of angle because it gives them options. If the curve tightens, they're pointed the right way. If it eases up, instead, they can still straighten out.
Doing the fastest line, going for the least angle, if you've got the curve right, you're faster than the guy with more angle. If you've got the curve wrong, you are missing the apex by a mile and will have to slow down to get turned in.
Over an unfamiliar course, the classic sideways entry will statistically pan out better. But if you've reconnoitered the course and know what's what, the more measured entry (look up videos of Petter Solberg) is much, much faster.
If you're going around the same course lap after lap after lap, you will eventually find more speed (in real life) by taking it properly.
- 9,741
- Las Vegas UTC-8
- Wardez
- Wardez
Since your request can't be challenged, let me give you one of my own: show me a racing sim where the fastest guys are driving as should be done in real life.
You won't be able to. Every sim has this same argument about one aspects of the physics that gets abused by time trial experts. So why be so thrown off by this?
Now that doesn't mean PD should sit happily with a tire model lacking such as this, but it definitely doesn't mean they'll ever be able to make hotlappers treat the cars in-game as they would in real life.
- 926
- machschnel
So does Polyphony pick the quickest lap overall or quickest lap driving "realistically"?
Would almost seem pointless to pick the person who gamed the system the best, especially when the techniques that make them quick are actually a detriment in real life.
Would almost seem pointless to pick the person who gamed the system the best, especially when the techniques that make them quick are actually a detriment in real life.
- 2,790
- Vancouver, BC
- liampage123
It actually does require, "finesse". The top drivers turn in points and brake points, can make or break a flying lap. You miss the proper brake points and turn in points by a millisecond, you can fly off the track. The brake and turn points also have to be in sync with one another so everything is smooth.
If you think of it that way, it requires, lots, LOTS of finesse.
If you think of it that way, it requires, lots, LOTS of finesse.
- 4,741
- Bogota,Colombia
- GTP_ARP93
- 9,741
- Las Vegas UTC-8
- Wardez
- Wardez
@machschnel
Finalists go through a series of trials to see who adapts best to the given circumstances. That's why we have a three phase compeition. In the top 2, or 6, or 12, or 32 (depending on country) that make it through the time trials, they're looking for dedication and speed. Those who will push no matter what, whether they like it or not.
'cause if you're going to come in with an attitude like, "gah, I don't like the way you all are doing things," then you've already lost. You think that'll fly in the military? "eeeeh, come on guys, why are we running around these ****ing logs all day? when are we ever gonna use this in war? eeeehhhh"
Bitch, that's not the point. Either you get over it or don't do it. complaining about this time trial as if it's somehow going to detract from the goal is ridiculous. You have absolutely no basis at all from which to stand and do that. Unless you wanna be to cool guy and claim it's about "principal."
Sure
If I remember correctly, a small bit of oversteer sometimes is the fastest way through some corners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU
Senna seems to think so. His driving style isn't too smooth either yet he's know as one of the greatest drivers ever. Look at how he uses the acceleration. How many of you have done his quick tapping method in game? I know I've used it plenty of times, usually on my best lap.
I guess this boils down to two things(in my opinion):
1) The physics are imperfect(and always will be. It a game after all, not real life)
2) As someone else said, IRL there is a safety margin. Do you think someone would take every corner like a madman to possibly shave off .1 seconds off of their lap time? No way. And I don't think anyone truly has the guts to drive how we would drive in game. We have no risk because it is a game. It's a different story when you're behind the wheel of a $20k-$2million car/racecar and your life is on the line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU
Senna seems to think so. His driving style isn't too smooth either yet he's know as one of the greatest drivers ever. Look at how he uses the acceleration. How many of you have done his quick tapping method in game? I know I've used it plenty of times, usually on my best lap.
I guess this boils down to two things(in my opinion):
1) The physics are imperfect(and always will be. It a game after all, not real life)
2) As someone else said, IRL there is a safety margin. Do you think someone would take every corner like a madman to possibly shave off .1 seconds off of their lap time? No way. And I don't think anyone truly has the guts to drive how we would drive in game. We have no risk because it is a game. It's a different story when you're behind the wheel of a $20k-$2million car/racecar and your life is on the line.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Tell these guys that driving style is pointless...they seem to be doing ok in real cars after being the fastest with GT's "detrimental" physics...lol.
https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-drivers-promoted-to-le-mans-podium/
- 169
Forza Motorsport 4.
Than so does Need for Speed and Project Gotham racing...
That's the difference between you and a professional racing driver.
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- 2,790
- Vancouver, BC
- liampage123
Well duh.
Jared93
(Banned)
- 518
- SGV, CA
- GTP_Jared93
👍 thank you.
- 11,211
- Sweden
- eran0004
I think you should take a look at your thread title, because when looking at the top times, most of the lap is silky smooth with perfect lines. That's hardly "no finesse at all", even if finesse is defined as textbook driving. You make it sound like they're a bunch of lucky kids who wildly swings into corners. As for the two or three corners where there are some sideways action, I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing there as well.
If anything, it's the tyre model that's not entirely accurate. Oversteer is loss of traction, and unless the other option would be to lose even more traction through understeer, oversteer should slow down the lap time.
Keep in mind though that it's not any wild amounts of oversteer we see in the replays, the angles are rather moderate and as I pointed out previously, most of the lap is still textbook driving.
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
I'm not in any way claiming to be the fastest (only 7000th,) but I noticed that I couldn't get a handle of the oversteer in the 370Z Tuned Car. Maybe that's just how the car is tuned? Obviously, I had no problem with the Leaf, but the 370Z was psychotic!
- 9,741
- Las Vegas UTC-8
- Wardez
- Wardez
You really seem to have missed what my question meant.
If even iRacing's fastest laps are deemed unrealistic by the purist crowd, why in the hell would you think FM4 would be above that?
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