Why top GTA times show no finesse at all?

[Jared93]

We're criticising it because it means the physics engine is still heavily flawed. I don't give damn about the contest, i'm well aware the fastest will be the fastest no matter what.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the physics are intensely over exaggerated but you just said it yourself. "The fastest will be the fastest no matter what" - My point exactly!

 

[Jared93]

Personally, I seem to gain very little from sliding, I just don't have the skills to minimise the impact, while others obviously do. For me, the gaping hole in what's presented is the transference of information to be able to better minimise the impact.

If there is indeed such flaws in the physics, I have yet to be able to exploit them.

Also, we just don't see these videos for other games. People would surely generally only upload videos by choice that show a purer racing style. The GTA videos are not shown by choice.

There is a time and a place for everything. That includes sliding through certain types* of corners.

 

[avens]

Sure. Explain to me why top players in GT5 were able to make the transition with ease whereas others clearly weren't able to then? Stop blaming the programmed physics just because you can't rank high. The fastest guys in GTA will still be the fastest in GT5.

The drivers are trained afterwards, in real cars, real driving. Their GT5 experience has absolutely nothing to do with their skill on the race track.

Also, this test was actually done by top gear with the iracing and long term 'simracing' champion, who happened to have absolutely zero track experience nor training. He did mediocre lap times.


edit: bah can't read. Replied to a whole different thing.

 

[Jared93]

The drivers are trained afterwards, in real cars, real driving. Their GT5 experience has absolutely nothing to do with their skill on the race track.

Also, this test was actually done by top gear with the iracing champion (where the best 'simracers' compete), who happened to have absolutely zero track experience nor training. He did mediocre lap times.

I'm not at all saying that one's skills in the game transfers over to real life without a hitch. I didn't even start playing GT competitively until AFTER I found I had a real interest for track days and karting. I apply my real life knowledge to the game. Not the other way around.

 

[Exorcet]

I know exactly what I'm talking about.

This is factually wrong.

Have you noticed how many higher ranking guys on here are involved in different kinds of motorsport?

And you know everyone who is and isn't?

Stop whining.

Until PD gets the physics right, get used to it.

Go look up the definition of adaptation while you're at it.

Find a reason why this isn't basically spam. Or gibberish. Or ego.

Personally, I seem to gain very little from sliding, I just don't have the skills to minimise the impact, while others obviously do. For me, the gaping hole in what's presented is the transference of information to be able to better minimise the impact.

If there is indeed such flaws in the physics, I have yet to be able to exploit them.

Whether or not it takes skill to find or master doesn't matter, it's about realism.

Arcade games can be plenty challenging, but that's not enough reason for just anyone to play them.

Also, we just don't see these videos for other games. People would surely generally only upload videos by choice that show a purer racing style. The GTA videos are not shown by choice.

Well it's not necessarily about other games, a sim can always be judged against reality. Though on the other hand, if this is difficult for most games to get right, it's understandable why it is the way it is in GT.

 

[TomBrady]

My personal view point and experience on this subject (regarding GT5/6 only) is that sliding into a turn is only really done on slower, sharper corners. If you do it on higher speed or prolonged corners, you will lose a lot of speed/time. To get the fastest times requires a bit of a "point and shoot" technique on the sharper turns, this is to be able to get back on the accelerator as early as possible.

For the person questioning the use of curbs before a turn, this is mostly a combination of using as much track as possible, therefore maintaining as much speed as possible, and for the way it can affect weight shifting and inertia. Also some curbs have a bit of camber which you can use to throw the nose in to the turn more quickly. If there's a curb, bump or even small patch of grass or dirt just before a corner entry that can upset or unbalance the car, it can be used to your advantage for a better turn in, which is then used for an earlier, quicker exit.

What is also important is knowing exactly where the points are for braking as late as possible, accelerating as early as possible, the steering inputs to control these and knowing what will happen before it's happening - ie, how the back end will react if you put 50% throttle down at so and so point through a corner.

We don't have the problems of tire heat, degradation, damage or any of the risks involved if we mess up. In regards to smoothness and claims that the top drivers are just being wild, there is a way of doing all of the above just right and it does indeed require a lot of finesse and consistency but perhaps in a different way to how you would imagine the same situation in real life. There is a reason the top guys are at the top, nothing to do with blind luck at all.

I completely agree about basically everything you just said. The fact that we don't have to worry about tire wear is another large factor being overlooked. There is an advantage to sliding a bit on tight corners in the real, and in GT6 so I see nothing wrong with these laps.

 

[LeMansAid]

Whether or not it takes skill to find or master doesn't matter, it's about realism.

Arcade games can be plenty challenging, but that's not enough reason for just anyone to play them.


Well it's not necessarily about other games, a sim can always be judged against reality. Though on the other hand, if this is difficult for most games to get right, it's understandable why it is the way it is in GT.

I do get the sense that if we were to see the absolute fastest times from other sims, they may well be equally ragged and unruly looking. We compare game graphics to real life as well, but surely a comparison with a game's benchmark contemporary is more logical and fair.

On skill: that was not the point I was trying to make. I don't think there is an advantage to sliding in GTA. Again, I think that there is an advantage to being the closest to that perfect middle ground between pushing to the limit, and minimising adverse impact when exceeding the limit. Evidence of straying to one side is obvious, while not on the other. But, there is only so many times I will repeat myself. This is the last.... hopefully.

 

[Wardez]

Until PD gets the physics right, get used to it.

Did you read what I said about this same complaining going on in other sims?

You seem to imply here that there's actually some way to satisfy enough people that no one would complain about the physics or driving to be real enough. Or it could be your way of saying the same thing - that it's an inevitable thing that won't ever be closed up since we know PD can't ever do it completely.

This type of thing will always be an issue. So maybe those that are surprised to see people drifting into turns and going fast because one setting or part of the physics was left out should've gotten used to things by now.

@Simon
You're acting like the physics are completely ruined throughout, when it's just the tire model. Even then, they could ease things for you guys by turning on tire wear, then this type of driving would be reduced. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater though.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

I do get the sense that if we were to see the absolute fastest times from other sims, they may well be equally ragged and unruly looking. We compare game graphics to real life as well, but surely a comparison with a game's benchmark contemporary is more logical and fair.

We can see the fastest drivers in the world in Forza. They don't drift around corners in an entirely unrealistic fashion because it's not the fastest way to drive.

And the fastest drivers being the fastest drivers has nothing to do with physics. It's purely because of their individual skill.

You're acting like the physics are completely ruined throughout, when it's just the tire model. Even then, they could ease things for you guys by turning on tire wear, then this type of driving would be reduced. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater though.

What is the only part of the car that makes contact with the road? That's right, tyres and adding wear won't all of the sudden stop it. People would just restart their sessions every 5-10 laps.

 

[niky]

No simulation is truly perfect.

I made national finals last year. I think i can adapt just fine.

And sometimes it's even harder to teach common sense.

Congratulations! Cookie? Seriously, props. How'd you do when you got to the track portion?

Common sense is definitely part of proper technique. But anyone who gets that far should already have a fairly good idea of how to drive properly in real life.

"Should" being the operative word.

Depends though, if you have an understeering car, a moment of hitting a kerb can break traction briefly and help with a little more slip into the turn, surely? I do it on sim games sometimes, clip the kerb, naturally unsettles the car a little and free's it up? Feel free to correct me if any real world track racers are here.

I hit curbs on track because it's fun. Very satisfying to slide sideways with two wheels in the air.

 

[GT-Roadie]

The cars in the past had downforce and tires with lesser grip than tires in the present. So I think it is similar to the downforce and grip situation in GTA. Look at this video, where these guys are drifting through the corners and they were the fastest. Look especially at 3:12 min. I don't think that that is slow.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Judging by that video, typical GT5 online races look pretty realistic, haha. So much contact and aggression.

 

[Wardez]

We can see the fastest drivers in the world in Forza. They don't drift around corners in an entirely unrealistic fashion because it's not the fastest way to drive.

And the fastest drivers being the fastest drivers has nothing to do with physics. It's purely because of their individual skill.

They may not be drifting on entry and such but I guarantee they're taking advantage of other unrealistic flaws in FM's system. Whether it's through tuning or a trick method out on track, there's no way it's completely true to life driving in approach.

For that, I wouldn't take anything away from the fastest drivers on Forza, just like I won't here for the GT6 demo.

What is the only part of the car that makes contact with the road? That's right, tyres and adding wear won't all of the sudden stop it. People would just restart their sessions every 5-10 laps.

That's why I said it would ease it down, not completely stop it. The main problem encouraging this type of driving on the limit is the fact that heat dissapates from the tires way too quickly, which is the adverse effect of driving like that in real life. So since that effect is gone, drivers are free to attack it as we're seeing.

Fix that (make it so traction goes away and stays that way longer when overheating your tires) and we'll have a much more realistic approach.

 

[machschnel]

Go look up the definition of adaptation while you're at it.

GTA is billed as turning gamers into real life (paid) drivers. If one is aiming to become a driver, what would be more beneficial - practicing techniques that can be applied to reality or ("adapting") working out how to exploit a game?

I think that's what a lot of people are getting at - GTA is still the marketing tool it always was, nothing more. That's not to take anything away from those that top the leaderboards, they are extremely fast....... at the game.

 

[Wardez]

GTA is billed as turning gamers into real life (paid) drivers. If one is aiming to become a driver, what would be more beneficial - practicing techniques that can be applied to reality or ("adapting") working out how to exploit a game?

I think that's what a lot of people are getting at - GTA is still the marketing tool it always was, nothing more. That's not to take anything away from those that top the leaderboards, they are extremely fast....... at the game.

Again, that's why they don't pick a winner from the time trials, but after two more phases of competition.

It's about exploiting for speed within the confined of the game, yes indeed. Once those "gamers" get to Racecamp, they're put through test to see who's best at "exploiting" the cars and challenges they're given in real life.

The thing is, this experiment of finding capable drivers using GT has been working. It is a marketing tool, exactly, but if the formula didn't work out, they would've changed it, or just dropped the whole thing all together.

You're using the word "exploiting" in a negative context leaning towards cheating, when I take it to mean doing everything one can to succeed at something.

So there's a horizon you're looking at now, and it's coming up fast, so which road will you go down in order to continue this argument? Morality or reality?

 

[Fusion]

There's also the fact that even if power sliding into a corner is faster in real life, it's not something you can do lap after lap in an actual race because of the tire wear and general fatigue on the car it would have. In this way recording the fastest single lap isn't all too accurate when finding the best race driver - that aside, it still shouldn't be undeniably faster to drive so aggressively even with tire wear not in effect. Something is broken...

I've found myself pulling away from my ghost when sliding into the corners, too. But, I can't really say I've perfected my times enough driving properly to really put this to the test... just, after getting silver on a few first attempts, sliding into a few corners and powering out I found myself pulling away from my ghost and got gold easily.

 

[Gejabo]

GTA is billed as turning gamers into real life (paid) drivers. If one is aiming to become a driver, what would be more beneficial - practicing techniques that can be applied to reality or ("adapting") working out how to exploit a game?

I think that's what a lot of people are getting at - GTA is still the marketing tool it always was, nothing more. That's not to take anything away from those that top the leaderboards, they are extremely fast....... at the game.

Well it seems to work...

Here are some examples

https://www.gtplanet.net/lucas-ordonez-scores-another-fia-gt-podium-at-zandvoort/

https://www.gtplanet.net/another-podium-for-gt-academy-winners/

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-champions-finish-4th-in-24-hours-of-le-mans/

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-drivers-score-blancpain-endurance-victory-at-silverstone/

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Depends though, if you have an understeering car, a moment of hitting a kerb can break traction briefly and help with a little more slip into the turn, surely? I do it on sim games sometimes, clip the kerb, naturally unsettles the car a little and free's it up? Feel free to correct me if any real world track racers are here.

"Track racers..." Well, I went once, in my Subaru, but was too scared to force myself to create oversteer. The understeer was really bad, but, I almost passed an M3 when the driver missed his braking point.


Speaking of, I'm not a talentless, bad driver. I'm actually quite talented. But, I'm in Canada, so I'm not GT Academy eligible. So, I played it to get my first impressions of GT6, and see how I stack up, worldwide.


Because I've been on a racetrack, in a car, in real life, I feel validated in saying that the physics feel really wrong in GT Academy 2013. There, I said it.

That's the reason I don't feel like I'm getting enough feedback through the wheel for a top 1000 lap time, the way I got in GT5. I was Top 100 in several rally event seasonals. I was top 1000 in GT Academy, top 32 in Canada. But, it meant next to nothing, since Canada's not eligible for GT Academy, and I know that I'm a bit too timid to drive the Deltawing, or some of the other race cars that GT Academy winners have driven.


But, GT6 demo was extremely weird. I didn't understand the physics, didn't understand why the cars felt the way they did. So, I think the physics system is flawed.

 

[Wardez]

It really depends on the type of curb.

I think the changes (seeming changes) to the material mapping has been improved, so curbs, greencrete, and grass really do have the level of grip loss (in relative scale to eachother) close to what you'd get in real life. But using them in real life in order to kind of get a bit of a flick going is possible. It's just a game of risk vs. reward ratio. In a hotlap competition like GTA, where every hundredth counts, and you can just restart your lap it'd be advisable. In real life, it is not worth the extra tenth or so to attempt it if 75% of the time you're gonna miss it.

It really depends on the profile of the curb though, as I said first. The one guys are using in Maggotts isn't as flat as most others, it's "kerbstone corrugation" bordered by a "sausage kerb," and they're using that to set up faster for Aintree.

 

[machschnel]

Again, that's why they don't pick a winner from the time trials, but after two more phases of competition.

Well thank god for that, it's not like the overall winner came from the time trials.

It's about exploiting for speed within the confined of the game, yes indeed. Once those "gamers" get to Racecamp, they're put through test to see who's best at "exploiting" the cars and challenges they're given in real life.

The thing is, this experiment of finding capable drivers using GT has been working. It is a marketing tool, exactly, but if the formula didn't work out, they would've changed it, or just dropped the whole thing all together.

Correlation does not imply causation.

You're using the word "exploiting" in a negative context leaning towards cheating, when I take it to mean doing everything one can to succeed at something.

There's a difference?

Morality or reality?

Are we still talking about a PS3 game?

Well it seems to work...

Here are some examples

https://www.gtplanet.net/lucas-ordonez-scores-another-fia-gt-podium-at-zandvoort/

https://www.gtplanet.net/another-podium-for-gt-academy-winners/

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-champions-finish-4th-in-24-hours-of-le-mans/

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-drivers-score-blancpain-endurance-victory-at-silverstone/

GTA drivers are pay drivers - they are expertly trained and placed in a quality car surrounded by quality people. I think there are quite a few Mario Kart players that would succeed in a similar situation.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

They may not be drifting on entry and such but I guarantee they're taking advantage of other unrealistic flaws in FM's system. Whether it's through tuning or a trick method out on track, there's no way it's completely true to life driving in approach.

The only "exploitation" in FM4 is cars that are clearly faster than others in their class which has nothing to do with the driver or the physics and I can guarantee 100% that if GT5 had a leaderboard structure like Forza than there would be just as many, if not more ridiculous leaderboard cars and tunes.

There are no ridiculous flaws in the physics that allow people to do insanely wrong things and not only get away with it but actually improve their times doing it.

 

[Gejabo]

GTA drivers are pay drivers - they are expertly trained and placed in a quality car surrounded by quality people. I think there are quite a few Mario Kart players that would succeed in a similar situation.

Still, they started of by being fast in a video game

 

[Wardez]

Well thank god for that, it's not like the overall winner came from the time trials.

Yeah, and yet you're still going to imply that it hardly makes a difference.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Gotta love this one. How about we do this GTA thing 50 more times, then another 50 with a control group to see if we can't satisfy your need for absolute conclusion that the program produces racing drivers with the talent to stand on their own against pros.

There's a difference?

One's positive, one's negative. Take it as you will.

Are we still talking about a PS3 game?

After deflating all your arguments you'll either take the moral high ground in saying this all of this is beneath you or your principals or you'll take the realistic approach and just see this thing for what it is, not smash it against ideals that are unmeetable.

GTA drivers are pay drivers - they are expertly trained and placed in a quality car surrounded by quality people. I think there are quite a few Mario Kart players that would succeed in a similar situation.

This is the quote of the year for me right here. Now I'm just convinced you're either a troll or just super bitter.

 

[sinbad]

I'm not a fan of the Academy physics, tyres or supension for that matter, but surely people aren't arguing that tyres should offer the best grip at zero-slip, or that the fastest way to get an understeer-prone car around a corner is to simply allow it understeer?

 

[Jared93]

This is factually wrong.

And you know everyone who is and isn't?

Until PD gets the physics right, get used to it.

Find a reason why this isn't basically spam. Or gibberish. Or ego.

Whether or not it takes skill to find or master doesn't matter, it's about realism.

Arcade games can be plenty challenging, but that's not enough reason for just anyone to play them.

Well it's not necessarily about other games, a sim can always be judged against reality. Though on the other hand, if this is difficult for most games to get right, it's understandable why it is the way it is in GT.

Doesn't look as though I did a good job explaining my point. I'm not disregarding the fact there are also many people who simply race or drive competitively in the game...and nothing else.

What I mean by "the knowledge will be applied regardless of the circumstances" is simply referring to...
A. The driving line through a certain course
B. How and when to throttle/brake in and out of corners
C. The mental tools utilized while racing.

A game is a game, reality is reality. This goes without saying that a kart will not feel or react the same manner in a game versus real life just like a 370z will not feel or react in the same manner in a game versus real life.

When I was referring to adaptation, that was solely meant for GT5 physics versus GT6 physics.

Is there anything that I'm missing here? Just for added clarification; of course safety precautions/tire wear/the risk of parts being worked too hard will play a role in how you drive in real life. The aggressive style is out there, but it's at the risk of the driver/car owner.

What also should be noted is that the wheel and pedals feels very different from real life. I had to get used to that myself.

 

[Jared93]

Yeah, and yet you're still going to imply that it hardly makes a difference.

Gotta love this one. How about we do this GTA thing 50 more times, then another 50 with a control group to see if we can't satisfy your need for absolute conclusion that the program produces racing drivers with the talent to stand on their own against pros.

That's one thing that I will never overlook. The experience of drivers who have been racing for their entire lives versus the guy who gets ridiculously good within the game's confines over a period of a few years. Real seat time is where it's at. Something else I should've explained immediately.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

Regardless of whether the technique is right or wrong, it's been the same every year. Obviously it's not that big of an issue when it comes to the final competition. Those with the real world talent will succeed.

The real race results of the academy winners speaks for itself. I didn't see Lucas sliding the Deltawing around corners at Le Mans last year.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

This is the quote of the year for me right here. Now I'm just convinced you're either a troll or just super bitter.

He does come across as being bitter, whether he actual is or not.

If you're fast you're fast, it's as simple as that. It doesn't matter where it is or how the handling is, natural talent will find it's way to the top everytime. Even if someone has never done anything before (which can include lack of real track time), that person has the natural talent to pick up, learn and adapt very quickly, and become competitive. I don't think it can be explained anymore simply than that.

machschnel
*General statements that GT:A doesn't work*

Through all your arguments, you are aware that many of those names that are at the top have plenty of real track time and motorsport experience right? The leaderboards are a mix of "real" drivers and "gamers", but they all drive the same to achieve the fastest times in the academy.

It also seems like you're denying the success of previous academy winners, when to me it seems like they're doing pretty well for people who apparently have no idea how to drive in real life.




Edit: Here's a cute little story for you. Back in my early teens when GT3 was out and I was on to my second wheel, my stepdad and I were invited by friends to the local outdoor go-karting track which has hosted some semi-serious endurance races. When my stepdad and I turned up, we found that there were 12 of us going to be taking part in a 2 hour enduro, with 3 of the people there being semi-professional kart racers and 4 of them also took part in several competitions.

At the age of 14, I had virtually no experience of driving a car, kart, on the road or on the circuit, all I had was years of GT1, 2 and 3 with my two Madcatz wheels. Needless to say that during the first few laps, I was much slower, nervous and all over the place compared to my stepdad who has participated in rallying with his own rally car and his friend who has participated in motorbike racing with his own bike, let alone the actual semi-prof kart racers. Do you know where I finished? 3rd with two spins, and I also managed to set the fastest lap time of the race. All I had going for me was Gran Turismo's experience, but it was enough to teach me the basics of handling and racing lines, and the ability to adapt meant that I clawed my way back through the field after the first half an hour.

GT:A is just a bigger version of something similar.

 

[Wardez]

Regardless of whether the technique is right or wrong, it's been the same every year. Obviously it's not that big of an issue when it comes to the final competition. Those with the real world talent will succeed.

The real race results of the academy winners speaks for itself. I didn't see Lucas sliding the Deltawing around corners at Le Mans last year.

Agreed

Just to clear up something real though btw:
Lucas didn't drive the Deltawing at Le Mans, he drove it at Petit Le Mans - ALMS @ Road Atlanta.

 

[Johnnypenso]

GTA drivers are pay drivers - they are expertly trained and placed in a quality car surrounded by quality people. I think there are quite a few Mario Kart players that would succeed in a similar situation.

That one statement proves you know nothing about motor racing and very little about reality.

Fact remains and it's indisuputable, that the GT Academy program has produced some outstanding drivers. Fast drivers within the game obviously have the talent to translate that to the track. The physics are not perfect, but the basics of motor racing are still there. How to apex, control the throttle, use the whole width of the track, maintain momentum, using the brakes to control corner entry etc. It's not like they are playing Call of Duty and promoted to a racing driver.