Why top GTA times show no finesse at all?

[ITCC_Andrew]

If even iRacing's fastest laps are deemed unrealistic by the purest crowd, why in the hell would you think FM4 would be above that?

Sim racing has no g-forces. Must be easy to drive the Acura/HPD LMP1 car from a couch.

 

[Wardez]

Just giving you guys an example of how this type of complaining will never ever stop, and is the dead horse of sim racing:

Watch this video:


And read the reactions:

 

[RattijuoppoFIN]

Forza Motorsport 4.
Than so does Need for Speed and Project Gotham racing...
That's the difference between you and a professional racing driver.

If you watch this you will notice that the car doesn't slide about at all.
If it did the lap time would be considerably slower.

 

[ShiftingGears]

If you watch this you will notice that the car doesn't slide about at all.
If it did the lap time would be considerably slower.

Yes but the comment he was referring to was claiming that drivers don't drive at ten tenths when going for a hot lap, not referring to powersliding a car the whole way around a circuit.

 

[PumpuliKivi]

If you watch this you will notice that the car doesn't slide about at all.
If it did the lap time would be considerably slower.

Hhahah morjesta !! XD

 

[JerseyDriverSS]

OP you'll never win this battle. GT's physics are the realest on a console/pc/real life bar none.

That was sarcasm by the way.

 

[niky]

Would be effective sarcasm if anybody here was actually claiming that...

What people are pointing out is that the best drivers will adapt to what is needed, realistic or not. That is what separates a driver of Fernando Alonso or Sebastian Loeb's caliber from us mere mortals. While we're doing the "proper" thing each and every time, they will find a way to do it better.

That's what the Academy is looking for. Guys who are dedicated enoughh and smart enough to find the fastest way around the track, however intuitive or cointer-intuitive it may seem.

You can teach proper technique. It's harder to teach dedication and smarts.

 

[phil_75]

The title pretty much talks for itself.
Top GT Academy players seem to jerk their cars into corners, then slide away. By textbook corner negotiation definition, smoothness at all times, their times should be poor.
The achieved fastest times seem to be a lucky shootout of wild corner entries.

What do you guys think?

Totally agree, it is far from realistic, its more like ridge racer with a poor framerate.

When following a faster ghost and i get sideways on corner exit i lose very little, if any, time/distance when i should fall back noticably.

Why PD?

Don't tell me! its just placeholder physics? zzzz

 

[luizsaluti]

I think you should take a look at your thread title, because when looking at the top times, most of the lap is silky smooth with perfect lines. That's hardly "no finesse at all", even if finesse is defined as textbook driving. You make it sound like they're a bunch of lucky kids who wildly swings into corners. As for the two or three corners where there are some sideways action, I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing there as well.

I am absolutely positive the fastest guys have skill, lots of it. Definitely they have been practicing a lot and maybe can consistently drive like that everytime. They are talented for sure. That can be called finesse.

Point taken.

Althought it doesn't look smooth, we can clearly see a good line there, but it feels the car sticks to this line in a unrealistic way. Again, it feels.

In fact what I meant by my OP, as a motorsports fan, is that it looks and feels that something is off; Unnatural.
I am no real racer, but whenever I watch a race, being it openwheelers or GT, we see a speed momentum loss whenever a great angle slide happens.

Maybe we need a professional analysis on the subject. A turn with no bumps, kerbs or walls, to nullify risks. Just the track painted on the tarmac, and a pro racer willing to test this to the letter.

Cheers.

 

[JerseyDriverSS]

Would be effective sarcasm if anybody here was actually claiming that...

What people are pointing out is that the best drivers will adapt to what is needed, realistic or not. That is what separates a driver of Fernando Alonso or Sebastian Loeb's caliber from us mere mortals. While we're doing the "proper" thing each and every time, they will find a way to do it better.

That's what the Academy is looking for. Guys who are dedicated enoughh and smart enough to find the fastest way around the track, however intuitive or cointer-intuitive it may seem.

You can teach proper technique. It's harder to teach dedication and smarts.

I made national finals last year. I think i can adapt just fine.

And sometimes it's even harder to teach common sense.

 

[luizsaluti]

OP you'll never win this battle. GT's physics are the realest on a console/pc/real life bar none.

That was sarcasm by the way.

C'mon, if you explain sarcasm. It can no longer be defined as such.

 

[JerseyDriverSS]

C'mon, if you explain sarcasm. It can no longer be defined as such.

You are correct, but sometimes sarcasm is lost around these parts. And i agree with you previous statement about the top drivers being talented. It does take a lot of skill to drive that way. My thing is that turning fast lap times that way shouldn't be the fastest way around the track. Don't get me wrong i'll do it because thats what needs to be done top get back to the finals again this year. I just don't get how a new and improved physics model and tire model produces the same crappy driving techniques to go fast.

 

[Exorcet]

generally where there is little downforce to be affected by getting the car sideways and where the

It's not downforce. If sliding was beneficial, cars would just be designed to maximize downforce while at an angle.

Another factor is tire wear, a nonfactor in GT, but a real factor in real life racing.

Qualifying would be all drifting then, as would the last few laps where people are trying to get one more position.

Do you think someone would take every corner like a madman to possibly shave off .1 seconds off of their lap time?

Yes. Every corner when needed. Getting in the car is a risk in the first place. Going fast is just your job at this point.

 

[eran0004]

I am no real racer, but whenever I watch a race, being it openwheelers or GT, we see a speed momentum loss whenever a great angle slide happens.

The angle of the slides are not really that great.
It's also worth noting that the car in question is not a race car on slicks, it's a tuned road car on sport tyres. Compare with this (skip to 7:55 for a lap around the test track) video:

 

[jules283]

I agree that some of the wild sliding evident in GT Academy top times is probably tough to do, but not representative of a smoother style long considered by real race drivers to be quicker.
I note the Stig is normally pretty smooth. Especially when compared to Clarkson and Hammond!
Did you watch the Racer X competition at E3?...if I was a race team owner I would not want the 2nd placed guy driving my car. The winner was smoother, so maybe there is hope for the real driving simulator finding a real driver!

 

[RattijuoppoFIN]

Hhahah morjesta !! XD

Yes nice to see you to. You might want to refrain from using Finnish here as the mods don't like it. Back on topic.

What people are pointing out is that the best drivers will adapt to what is needed, realistic or not. That is what separates a driver of Fernando Alonso or Sebastian Loeb's caliber from us mere mortals.

Maybe so but I doubt that the enthusiasts would consider it worse if the fastest method of driving would be silky smooth and precision driving.

 

[TomBrady]

The title pretty much talks for itself.
Top GT Academy players seem to jerk their cars into corners, then slide away. By textbook corner negotiation definition, smoothness at all times, their times should be poor.
The achieved fastest times seem to be a lucky shootout of wild corner entries.

What do you guys think?

Senna drove on the ragged edge like that and even his throttle inputs were not smooth and progressive like most, he stabbed at it like the way ABS systems work on the brakes. It's not that far fetched to think that I drift happy car like the 370z is faster with a little bit of power sliding.

It's the same way with a lot of cars in iracing too. It all depends on the cars.

 

[Connoissuer]

I don't find the braking on the rumble strips to obtain oversteer realistic.

 

[RocknSoul]

Hello I like all of us eagerly awaited the release of GT6. Not having the extensive GT experience that some have, I have only played GT5.
I find that both GT5 and GT6 have some benefits. The graphics of GT6 provide more shadows and shading but seem to provide a little less contrast, making it harder for me to see the track. Given that GT6 is a demo version this is something I hope they fix for the release version.
As for the physics engine I do agree that it seem to favor a loose (sliding) car and handling. I attribute this to the fact that since my actual race car experience is very limited that this is the way a video game versions of a racing game work, I have adjusted my driving style from, I am paying for the fenders to go for broke style of driving and my lap times have improved.
Heck the GT franchise whatever number provides me with a Walter Mitty racing experience one that I would never be able to afford.
All and all I can't wait for the release of GT6, for me new tracks are far more important than being the fastest guy on the block. PSN : rock-n-soul

 

[Jared93]

I don't find the braking on the rumble strips to obtain oversteer realistic.

Have you ever driven a track?

 

[Furinkazen]

Like to mention a point about the rally drivers and going sideways discussion, a quote from WRC3's loading screen comes to mind - something like "A F1 driver see's the same corners a thousand times, a rally driver see's a thousand corners". In F1 or any circuit race its a circuit, you get practise laps, you know the track. Rallying is you and the terrain, the elements, its better go in sideways as you actually have more options. his brings me onto the iRacing video.

Why is that driver so committed? Because it's a GAME. In a game, you can have the most horrendous wipe outs and incidents pushing the limit, and its just a reset and you're back away.

I was playing Rfactor against some AI at the 60's Le Mans, and Indianapolis corner on it I tried entering the sweeping right flat and slamming on the brakes in an Audi R18. First time I misjudged it and ended up going straight on into a wall and some fence posts. In real life, you'd be seriously injured. In a game, just re start. iRacing video - one mistake in a 200mph F1 car in real life, and you're in for a big shunt and possible injury. Besides, in games they don't factor in track grip levels, wind direction, and as Mr Melancholy said, you don't have G Forces, at least simulated on the driver.

If you can do a F1 pole lap on F1 2012, well done, but doing it at 200mph with the wind in your face and the elements against you is something else. Point is GTA is finding people who can make that leap, who can make that transition.



Above is Sebastian Loeb, setting a world record at Pikes Peak. All runners got was two practise sessions, the course split in half. The ability like him to know where the car will go, judge the distance, speed, grip, is what sets true legends apart. I believe Loeb is greatest driver of this generation, but that's another discussion...

Also, we bring F1 and Rallying in about driving styles? In modern F1, cars have slicks and a lot of aero, and compared to the 80's cars like Senna's, they have tons of downforce. If you get and F1 car sideways you are 99% of the time losing time. Rallying in a 4WD 300hp road car with small downforce levels is going to be totally different.

I don't find the braking on the rumble strips to obtain oversteer realistic.

Depends though, if you have an understeering car, a moment of hitting a kerb can break traction briefly and help with a little more slip into the turn, surely? I do it on sim games sometimes, clip the kerb, naturally unsettles the car a little and free's it up? Feel free to correct me if any real world track racers are here.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

My personal view point and experience on this subject (regarding GT5/6 only) is that sliding into a turn is only really done on slower, sharper corners. If you do it on higher speed or prolonged corners, you will lose a lot of speed/time. To get the fastest times requires a bit of a "point and shoot" technique on the sharper turns, this is to be able to get back on the accelerator as early as possible.

For the person questioning the use of curbs before a turn, this is mostly a combination of using as much track as possible, therefore maintaining as much speed as possible, and for the way it can affect weight shifting and inertia. Also some curbs have a bit of camber which you can use to throw the nose in to the turn more quickly. If there's a curb, bump or even small patch of grass or dirt just before a corner entry that can upset or unbalance the car, it can be used to your advantage for a better turn in, which is then used for an earlier, quicker exit.

What is also important is knowing exactly where the points are for braking as late as possible, accelerating as early as possible, the steering inputs to control these and knowing what will happen before it's happening - ie, how the back end will react if you put 50% throttle down at so and so point through a corner.

We don't have the problems of tire heat, degradation, damage or any of the risks involved if we mess up. In regards to smoothness and claims that the top drivers are just being wild, there is a way of doing all of the above just right and it does indeed require a lot of finesse and consistency but perhaps in a different way to how you would imagine the same situation in real life. There is a reason the top guys are at the top, nothing to do with blind luck at all.

 

[Jared93]

My personal view point and experience on this subject (regarding GT5/6 only) is that sliding into a turn is only really done on slower, sharper corners. If you do it on higher speed or prolonged corners, you will lose a lot of speed/time. To get the fastest times requires a bit of a "point and shoot" technique on the sharper turns, this is to be able to get back on the accelerator as early as possible.

For the person questioning the use of curbs before a turn, this is mostly a combination of using as much track as possible, therefore maintaining as much speed as possible, and for the way it can affect weight shifting and inertia. Also some curbs have a bit of camber which you can use to throw the nose in to the turn more quickly. If there's a curb, bump or even small patch of grass or dirt just before a corner entry that can upset or unbalance the car, it can be used to your advantage for a better turn in, which is then used for an earlier, quicker exit.

What is also important is knowing exactly where the points are for braking as late as possible, accelerating as early as possible, the steering inputs to control these and knowing what will happen before it's happening - ie, how the back end will react if you put 50% throttle down at so and so point through a corner.

We don't have the problems of tire heat, degradation, damage or any of the risks involved if we mess up. In regards to smoothness and claims that the top drivers are just being wild, there is a way of doing all of the above just right and it does indeed require a lot of finesse and consistency but perhaps in a different way to how you would imagine the same situation in real life. There is a reason the top guys are at the top, nothing to do with blind luck at all.

They're only criticizing it because they are unable to do it themselves. Which does no good in the long run...

 

[Exorcet]

They're only criticizing it because they are unable to do it themselves.

Which is the only reason to question unrealistic behavior in a simulator.

If we're making unfounded and irrational assumptions, it's good to know that everyone supporting the physics failed driver's ed.

 

[LeMansAid]

Qualifying would be all drifting then, as would the last few laps where people are trying to get one more position.

A little hyperbolous I think, and somewhat indicative of the tone of quite a few here. We are hardly talking drifting.

Is this really that hard to understand? In a game we are afforded the safety of approaching perfection from one of two angles: build to the limit with smooth and controlled driving, or pull back from all out aggression enough to minimise loss of speed.

THE BIG POINT!! There is no comprehensive or obvious visual to indicate when someone is not quite at the limit and therefore perfection, while there most certainly is when someone is not quite at perfection due to pushing beyond the limit and having to compensate and control the adverse effects.

Should we compile some videos of smooth fast times and pick apart where someone could have hit the brakes a millisecond later, or given the throttle .076% more?

Edit: I by the way, drive smooth and slow. Very slow.

 

[Jared93]

Which is the only reason to question unrealistic behavior in a simulator.

If we're making unfounded and irrational assumptions, it's good to know that everyone supporting the physics failed driver's ed.

Sure. Explain to me why top players in GT5 were able to make the transition with ease whereas others clearly weren't able to then? Stop blaming the programmed physics just because you can't rank high. The fastest guys in GTA will still be the fastest in GT5.

That's a wild assumption to make on your part. I feel confident in saying that the people you are criticizing right now will easily know quite a bit more about getting around a track in real life than you do. Regardless of the circumstances the knowledge is going to be applied.

....I passed my license test the first time with a 4/15 and graduated drivers Ed with an A. This was two years ago. Accept the fact that there are people who are better than you and know more than you. Learn from it. 👍

 

[Exorcet]

Is this really that hard to understand? In a game we are afforded the safety of approaching perfection from one of two angles: build to the limit with smooth and controlled driving, or pull back from all out aggression enough to minimise loss of speed.

If the penalty for sliding was large, people would learn quickly to give it up. So the ability to go over the edge (which isn't limited to video games anyway) doesn't explain away potential physics problems.

Sure. Explain to me why top players in GT5 were able to make the transition with ease whereas others clearly weren't able to then? Stop blaming the programmed physics just because you can't rank high. The fastest guys in GTA will still be the fastest in GT5.

Do you even know my rank? Do you even know if I care about it?

That's a wild assumption to make on your part.

The irony.

I feel confident in saying that the people you are criticizing right now will easily know quite a bit more about getting around a track in real life than you do. Regardless of the circumstances the knowledge is going to be applied.

The quote block above.

....I passed my license test the first time with a 4/15 and graduated drivers Ed with an A.

So I guess wild assumptions made on the spot don't have to be correct.

Accept the fact that there are people who are better than you and know more than you. Learn from it.

I'll trade you, give me your acceptance that you don't know what you're talking about when you're giving peoples' reasons for disapproving.

 

[Samus]

They're only criticizing it because they are unable to do it themselves. Which does no good in the long run...

We're criticising it because it means the physics engine is still heavily flawed. I don't give damn about the contest, i'm well aware the fastest will be the fastest no matter what.

 

[Jared93]

If the penalty for sliding was large, people would learn quickly to give it up. So the ability to go over the edge (which isn't limited to video games anyway) doesn't explain away potential physics problems.

Do you even know my rank? Do you even know if I care about it?

The irony.

The quote block above.

So I guess wild assumptions made on the spot don't have to be correct.

I'll trade you, give me your acceptance that you don't know what you're talking about when you're giving peoples' reasons for disapproving.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. I don't know your rank, nor do I care. Have you noticed how many higher ranking guys on here are involved in different kinds of motorsport? Doesn't look like it. Stop whining. Go look up the definition of adaptation while you're at it.

 

[LeMansAid]

If the penalty for sliding was large, people would learn quickly to give it up. So the ability to go over the edge (which isn't limited to video games anyway) doesn't explain away potential physics problems.

Personally, I seem to gain very little from sliding, I just don't have the skills to minimise the impact, while others obviously do. For me, the gaping hole in what's presented is the transference of information to be able to better minimise the impact.

If there is indeed such flaws in the physics, I have yet to be able to exploit them.

Also, we just don't see these videos for other games. People would surely generally only upload videos by choice that show a purer racing style. The GTA videos are not shown by choice.