2011 Chinese Grand Prix

[C-ZETA]

Oh so I guess Michael's 7 titles are just down to the cars then?

Of course not. But it's not just down to his ability. It's also down to his terribly cheap tactics on occasion, as we all saw in 1994...that was just horrific. And he tried it again in 1997. Then Ferrari used team orders in 2002...then he blocked the way at Monaco in 2006...and more recently he nearly forced Barrichello into the wall in Hungary last year (also, that's once nearly every 4 years). Although these days I actually would be happy to see Schumi get on the podium considering that his car is less impressive in relation to the rest of the field these days. And also with age his driving ability has diminished rather badly. 14th today? Rosberg today qualifying 4th really does give you quite the indicator.

But anyway, very happy to see Toro Rosso and Di Resta making it to Q3. Alguersuari's starting 7th as well, proving what a good qualifying this was. Feel sorry for Renault though, the wheels really fell of their wagon today.

 

[Anghammarad]

I wouldn't be too sure about that, McLaren were only a tenth off in qualifying at Malaysia and in the race Hamilton was matching if not beating Vettel's times in his stints.

The only reason Hamilton was able to match Vettel's times was because Vettel was already in the lead and only had to run fast enough to keep it. There was no point in pushing hard in order to win by half a minute. I don't think that Vettel has gone full out at any point in any of the two races this year except for the first lap.

 

[Ardius]

Of course not. But it's not just down to his ability. It's also down to his terribly cheap tactics on occasion, as we all saw in 1994...that was just horrific. And he tried it again in 1997. Then Ferrari used team orders in 2002...then he blocked the way at Monaco in 2006...and more recently he nearly forced Barrichello into the wall in Hungary last year (also, that's once nearly every 4 years). Although these days I actually would be happy to see Schumi get on the podium considering that his car is less impressive in relation to the rest of the field these days. And also with age his driving ability has diminished rather badly. 14th today? Rosberg today qualifying 4th really does give you quite the indicator.

But anyway, very happy to see Toro Rosso and Di Resta making it to Q3. Alguersuari's starting 7th as well, proving what a good qualifying this was. Feel sorry for Renault though, the wheels really fell of their wagon today.

I think you misunderstand my point - its always a balance of having a good car but also making the most of that good car. The point is Schumacher very clearly did have the speed back then and he very clearly lacks it now. Of course part of it is also the car, even though Rosberg put it up there, we know that the Mercedes isn't the greatest handling car out there. I'm not defending Schumacher here, I've been quite vocal about his "return" being a waste of a good seat.
Schumacher won most of his titles on merit (1994 is iffy), through the skill of himself, the team and the car. You cannot win the WDC without all 3.

I was basically pointing out that blaming the car is a little rediculous considering who we are talking about. To then suggest "its all about the car anyway" is pretty ignorant too. (referring to zdawood here, not you C-ZETA).

The only reason Hamilton was able to match Vettel's times was because Vettel was already in the lead and only had to run fast enough to keep it. There was no point in pushing hard in order to win by half a minute. I don't think that Vettel has gone full out at any point in any of the two races this year except for the first lap.

Hamilton was catching Vettel on a different strategy, Button was very clearly reigning Vettel in near the end too. I don't really see where this "hidden pace" comes from if we take their qualifying performance as a gauge. They was only a tenth between them at that track in qualy, so its pure speculation whether Vettel was cruising or not. If there was a second difference in qualy, I would agree, but the evidence suggests McLaren were very close at Sepang and several other cars appear to have very good race pace too (Renault were also running similar times to Vettel). A different case here at China of course, but even so, I still believe its all to play for with strategy and tyres.
Its way too early to start writing the season off as domination.

 

[C-ZETA]

I think you misunderstand my point - its always a balance of having a good car but also making the most of that good car. The point is Schumacher very clearly did have the speed back then and he very clearly lacks it now. Of course part of it is also the car, even though Rosberg put it up there, we know that the Mercedes isn't the greatest handling car out there. I'm not defending Schumacher here, I've been quite vocal about his "return" being a waste of a good seat.
Schumacher won most of his titles on merit (1994 is iffy), through the skill of himself, the team and the car. You cannot win the WDC without all 3.

I do understand your point, I was just talking about Schumi's bad old ways. Or maybe I just got carried away by my previous dislike for him. And yes, Schumi really did win a majority of his titles on merit, but in some cases he was just too dominant for me. I mean, I actually really enjoyed all of the races Schumi didn't win in 2004 (which was my first real season of watching F1).

 

[IceMan PJN]

It's more car than driver.

2010 RBR (Rear diffuser) - Vettel
2009 Brawn ("illegal" double diffuser) - Button
2008 McLaren (Chassis design) - Hamilton

While having a good car is important to success, the driver is just as important. You can take a fantastic car but put a lesser driver in it and it can do alright but won't win. You can take a fantastic driver but put him in a poor car and he will do poorly due to the car not having quite the performance capability but can still outperform other lesser cars with lesser drivers due to the skill advantage. To have a winner you need to pair both a great driver with a great car.

Granted, you could always have some fluke whereby somebody ends up finishing higher than he and his car probably should have, but stepping back and looking at the bigger picture of long-term performance across the season the guys at the top aren't there just because of the car itself. In 2008 Hamilton had a great car, but sitting inside it was a great driver. The number 23 car didn't have that same advantage despite also being a MP4-23, earning just over half as many points as car 22. In 2009 Brawn did have a huge advantage over the first half of the season, but Button winning the championship owed as much to Button actually being a good driver.

Currently, the top teams don't just have good cars, but they also have a lot of talent sitting inside them. You can take some of the drivers from farther down the field and sit them inside the Red Bulls, McLarens, Ferraris, Renaults, or Mercedes, and they can do alright thanks to the cars being good cars, but they likely won't be seeing quite the same lap times that Vettel, Hamilton, Button, Webber, Alonso, and so forth are capable of setting in the same cars. Victory in F1 is a joint effort of many things, including a top-notch car, a top driver, great pit crews making great pit stops, and great calls by great team leadership. Everything needs to work in a harmony of excellence to win races and championships.

 

[Submerged]

The race should be relatively interesting due to the fact that Hammy has saved a set of tyres. Vettel hasn't. Neither did Button.

Of course, Webber has saved a lot of tyres now, but it will be interesting to see which position he will end up, with the strategy and the tyres playing a factor here. The high speed back straight and the massive braking force required for Turn 14 should lead to higher or uneven tyre wear that should promote smooth driving above all for the race. Therefore having several sets of softs to spare should lead to some pretty interesting tactics and closer racing too......

 

[Alex p.]

No I'm watching a season where it's quite probable, bar any mechanical failures, that we will see Vettel win every qualifying, take the start and then just run a calculated race with just enough effort to keep the lead comfortably. There was never any discussion about the win in either Australia or Malaysia. If it seemed like Vettels race pace wasn't as good as his qualifying pace it was just because he didn't need to push. It's quite obvious that there was a lot more in the Red Bull had it really been needed.

There's no doubt that Vettel has blistering speed. I just want to see him make a less than perfect quali and end up in third row and have to race for real instead of endless hotlapping.

He is on pole because he was fast=he deserved it and therefore he deserves to win the race, simple.

 

[Akmuq]

Forgive the brain fade. It's late.

Forgive the dunce and sounding like an asshole. It was early.

 

[Anghammarad]

He is on pole because he was fast=he deserved it and therefore he deserves to win the race, simple.

Yes, where did I say anything else? I just don't find it very exciting to see one driver take the lead from pole and then winning without ever being under any sort of pressure. Impressive, yes. Exciting, not in the least.

 

[GTRL_Junior]

Well the start will be critical. Vetell is all by himself, he's got 2 Maclarens and amazing driver on his tail. Will the KERS system work on his car? Will he be ae to hold them off? If he gets passed by one of them then well, the race will be totally different cause Vetel isnt good yet making passes or having patience.

 

[Bigbazz]

Vettel spends too much time in pole position, he could use some experience racing instead of running time trials. Has to be said though the guy is fast as lightning, the "baby schuey" nicknames were certaintly justified, as Vettel is just something else... Or perhaps the Red Bull car is, maybe both of the above.

 

[Rossticles]

Yawn. Vettel on pole again. But hey, Webber didn't actually have a failure/accident but still couldn't get through Q1? That's pretty awful for him.

Who told you that? It was clear during on board shots that his KERS wasn't discharging.

The race should be relatively interesting due to the fact that Hammy has saved a set of tyres. Vettel hasn't. Neither did Button.

Of course, Webber has saved a lot of tyres now, but it will be interesting to see which position he will end up, with the strategy and the tyres playing a factor here. The high speed back straight and the massive braking force required for Turn 14 should lead to higher or uneven tyre wear that should promote smooth driving above all for the race. Therefore having several sets of softs to spare should lead to some pretty interesting tactics and closer racing too......

I think Vettel has a set of tires in hand as well. He aborted his last flying lap after knowing no one was going to best him. If anything he used more tires in qualifying in Malaysia setting pole at the very end. We only know about this possible downfall because of what happened to Hamilton in Malaysia. If that hadn't happened, no one would be questioning it. Also the track in Shanghai isn't nearly as abrasive as it was in Malaysia and the temperatures dropped a bit yesterday.

 

[kimi123]

Vettel is in form of his life and RBR of his seems prefect for him. Webber is in trouble though starting so behind and no KERS.

Mercedes GP did well here so let us see tomorrow. Schumi should recover and they can get car sorted out Nico has good chance to challenge for podium. If Vettel get good start then he will probably win. Hopefully Mclaren, Mercedes and Ferrari will have good fight for top 5 places.

 

[Matti_Dude]

I think Vettel has a set of tires in hand as well. He aborted his last flying lap after knowing no one was going to best him. If anything he used more tires in qualifying in Malaysia setting pole at the very end. We only know about this possible downfall because of what happened to Hamilton in Malaysia. If that hadn't happened, no one would be questioning it. Also the track in Shanghai isn't nearly as abrasive as it was in Malaysia and the temperatures dropped a bit yesterday.

I think Vettel would have still been pushing all the way around that lap until the final few corners when he would have found out that he had pole. Also I think the pitstops will be more like Australia where most teams do a 2 stop race, so the tire issue won't be as important.

EDIT: Also just seen that D'Ambrosio outqualified Glock by 8 tenths of a second! Not bad for a driver in his rookie season and against a driver that I would rate quite highly.

 

[Sephy]

Funny how your subconscious posts for you.

Hahaha I was going to bed

I like your avatar. Kobayashi is one of my favorite drivers.

 

[Ardius]

Who told you that? It was clear during on board shots that his KERS wasn't discharging.

The KERS failure was before qualifying and isn't enough to relegate an RB7 of all cars to Q1 dropout.
The team made a big error not to ensure they made the cut especially considering they already knew KERS wasn't an option.

I also feel Webber didn't exactly put in a fantastic performance either, even if it was without KERS and on the harder tyre, surely he could have done much better than that?

 

[Rossticles]

Yes. KERS makes up for a lot of time on the back straight though. Something could have been done to get into Q2 at least. Red Bull knows something we don't?

I think Vettel would have still been pushing all the way around that lap until the final few corners when he would have found out that he had pole. Also I think the pitstops will be more like Australia where most teams do a 2 stop race, so the tire issue won't be as important.

Truth. I think it must have been halfway around track when his team told him he was safe though. If I recall, Button was already .2 off of Vettel's time in the first sector alone.

We could see a boring race if Vettel has done what he has in Australia and Malaysia. In both races he pulled out a 2s differential to 2nd on the first lap.

 

[Matti_Dude]

Yes. KERS makes up for a lot of time on the back straight though. Something could have been done to get into Q2 at least though.


Truth. I think it must have been halfway around track when his team told him he was safe though. If I recall, Button was already .2 off of Vettel's time in the first sector alone.

We could see a boring race if Vettel has done what he has in Australia and Malaysia. In both races he pulled out a 2s differential to 2nd on the first lap.

Yeah I hope this race no cars get in between Vettel and the McLarens at the start. I think in terms of race pace the McLarens and even Ferrari's to some extent aren't too far off the the Red Bull.

 

[Bigbazz]

If you watch Webbers lap his car was understeering all over the place, It looked like a slow car, there was something not right there. Perhaps lack of heat in the tyres, perhaps a setup issue, perhaps something sick with that car.

Vettels car on the other hand looked completely different, it turned in beautifully and had no understeer issues, looked like a different car.

 

[Matti_Dude]

Webber was on prime tires though which are bound to give him a lot less grip. Plus the lack of KERS will make him even slower, I'm sure Vettel managed a mid 35 on prime tires though. So surely a lack of KERS wouldn't make a seconds difference?

 

[Ardius]

Yes. KERS makes up for a lot of time on the back straight though. Something could have been done to get into Q2 at least. Red Bull knows something we don't?

0.4 of a second apparently is what KERS gives. Enough to warrant making sure Mark makes it on soft tyres however its easy to see why RBR felt Mark could manage on the hard tyres seeing as Vettel did quite easily.

Webber was on prime tires though which are bound to give him a lot less grip. Plus the lack of KERS will make him even slower, I'm sure Vettel managed a mid 35 on prime tires though. So surely a lack of KERS wouldn't make a seconds difference?

Precisely, KERS isn't losing him a whole second.

 

[Matti_Dude]

Nico was the surprise of the session for me. 4th in that Mercedes is very impressive, it makes me wonder how Schumacher didn't manage to get in to Q3. His laptime in Q1 was fairly decent and had he repeated that in Q2 he could have gotten in to the final session.

 

[Famine]

So did anything happen to Alonso for that dick move on Perez in the resumed Q2 session?

 

[Rossticles]

It was Massa, and nothing came from it. They both got a good lap in. Perez even looked to hold up Rosberg behind him.

 

[Famine]

I thought it was Massa, but Brundle said it was Alonso.

Bizarre that no punishment was meted out for that one. They looked like they touched.

 

[Rossticles]

The commentators here initially said it was Alonso as well. If you read the post-qualifying quotes though Massa mentions he had to pass Perez quickly to get in the clean air and get a good lap in. I thought the Ferrari driver that drove like that was Alonso as well. They definitely looked like they touched going into turn 2. The only view I had of that incident was from a helicopter camera so it's hard to make a judgement.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

It was Massa. IIRC the order was like this at the pit entry:

Perez
Massa
Rosberg
Kobayashi
Alonso
Schumacher

 

[Ardius]

I thought it was Massa, but Brundle said it was Alonso.

Bizarre that no punishment was meted out for that one. They looked like they touched.

I think the commentators are getting easily confused when they are trying to tell the cars apart at a quick glance, they usually look at the red or yellow t-bar camera housing, and last year Alonso was yellow. This year Massa has the yellow, so its easy to make that mistake.
I agree its surprising nothing was made of it, but really it was a harmless move compared to what was going on in the BTCC qualifying at Donington today!

It was Massa. IIRC the order was like this at the pit entry:

Perez
Massa
Rosberg
Kobayashi
Alonso
Schumacher

Close, it was actually
Perez
Massa
Kobayashi
Schumacher
Alonso
Rosberg
Heidfeld
Barrichello
Di Resta
Sutil
Maldanado

 

[SagarisGTB]

So did anything happen to Alonso for that dick move on Perez in the resumed Q2 session?

It was a legit move to take track position. Unless something has changed recently, you are allowed to overtake in qualifying and Massa did so to get clean air for his flying lap. Neither was on a flyer and they didn't touch so there were no problems. It was a smart move.

I'm sure if Hamilton or Button had done so, you would be praising their ingenuity for getting themselves the clear air they needed. No?

 

[Anghammarad]

This is becoming silly.