2012 Grand Premio Petrobras do Brasil
- Thread starter Matty
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- hennessey_86 and GTP_evox
- hennessey861
That is exactly the point, everyone has good and bad luck which is why it was odd to see pages and pages of posts moaning that Vettel won it with luck, Alonso was just as lucky.
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- Manchester
- Ardius_
How can Vettel cut up a driver who is coming from a long way back? Vettel would have been busy looking at Di Resta in his mirrors and Webber ahead.
He wouldn't have been looking all the way back at Senna. If I was Senna I would have used a bit of brains and worked out that Vettel was unlikely to have seen me seeing as I only got alongside thanks to the concertina effect.
Pausing that video at 53/54 seconds shows that Senna wasn't alongside until well into the turn-in phase of the corner. At that point Vettel would have seen Di Resta wasn't alongside and begun to pick his line and turn in. Senna comes barreling in from a while back, taking advantage of everyone slowing each other up, and runs into Vettel.
If anyone should get penalties there - its Senna, but personally its just about a racing incident..though it could have been avoided if Senna hadn't tried to be overly ambitious.
He wouldn't have been looking all the way back at Senna. If I was Senna I would have used a bit of brains and worked out that Vettel was unlikely to have seen me seeing as I only got alongside thanks to the concertina effect.
Pausing that video at 53/54 seconds shows that Senna wasn't alongside until well into the turn-in phase of the corner. At that point Vettel would have seen Di Resta wasn't alongside and begun to pick his line and turn in. Senna comes barreling in from a while back, taking advantage of everyone slowing each other up, and runs into Vettel.
If anyone should get penalties there - its Senna, but personally its just about a racing incident..though it could have been avoided if Senna hadn't tried to be overly ambitious.
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Tell that to Romain Grosjean!
None of which matters, since they didn't even bother investigating it. This is highly unusual as I'm not aware of any other incident involving a collision and a race retirement that is not investigated.
He doesn't need to be. If any part of him is alongside, you cannot drive into the space he's in. Did Senna do that? Nope. Did Vettel? Yep.
But, as above, it doesn't matter whose fault it was as they didn't even bother investigating it.
They didn't investigate it and find it to be a racing incident or no case to answer. They just didn't bother investigating it at all. This is unusual.
It doesn't matter who had to recognise what. Senna was alongside and the car completely in control - not screaming up the inside, tyres smoking. But they didn't investigate it.
It didn't resolve itself well for Perez, who was in a car his less-rated teammate found capable enough to put right amongst the front runners.
- 1,934
- Nazareth/Israel
- GTClub_Wajdi
Also the Italian tv didn't give all the fault on Vettel!
Which was irrelevant, he would still have won without it. Red Bull could have also dropped Webber behind him if they wanted, just like Ferrari used Massa but they didn't.
He didn't ask for, or even need this position. Even if he finished behind Schumacher he would have still finished 1 point ahead of Alonso. Either way Schumacher knew he was faster and didn't want to risk a collision ending his final Formula 1 race or risk Vettels championship.
Senna completely missed his braking point, he won't admit it but from above it is clear and also Vettels steering angle barely changed at all from turn in to collision.
Anyway this is my view but say what you all want.
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- albtifosi
I agree with you that senna did dive into the corner. The thing is that he made the corner, was on the inside line and stayed on the inside while exiting. Vettel on the other hand went all the way from the outside to the apex of the corner like he was doing any other lap. The problem here was that the corner was at the end of straight during the first lap on cold tires and in semi-wet conditions. He also had another car to his inside which, considering the conditions, could have easily slid in to him. I'm sure he was quite unpleasantly surprised to find another driver where he though it was most likely clear but in my opinion, it is bad judgment on his behalf to cut across the circuit like that while very closely behind you, there is a scramble for position. Thus I think a penalty would have been well deserved in that situation.
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- Ardius_
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- SiiverArrow
Well the way I look at it is simple, what has happened happened and Vettel is 3XWDC, whether you think he deserved it or not. I don't see a need to sit and dwell on it, just accept it and look ahead to 2013. I'm pretty sure Alonso and Ferrari are already doing that, not debating things like this.
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Fernando came close but not close enough. Just listened to Jenson and he could have put the car in the wall like Paul but I think Red Bull had it covered with Mark to respond to position change. Well done to Sebastian to hold his nerve and win his 3rd WDC 👍.
Lewis got fastest lap at least and Michael finished a fitting 7th place matching the number of his WDCs.
I think that will go down as the most dramatic race this season, very exciting in a different way compared to last race.
Lewis got fastest lap at least and Michael finished a fitting 7th place matching the number of his WDCs.
I think that will go down as the most dramatic race this season, very exciting in a different way compared to last race.
He missed the apex by about a cars width.
Wiegert
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Honestly, I just saw it as a racing incident. No real point blaming one driver or the other for what happened, plus nothing appears to be coming in terms of penalties anyway. I do feel that it should warranted an investigation seeing as most other incidents of that nature would lead to one (from what I've seen at least), but I doubt it would have lead to a penalty.
I've never been fan of a Vettel or Alonso either, so I wouldn't have been upset regardless of the eventual winner.
I've never been fan of a Vettel or Alonso either, so I wouldn't have been upset regardless of the eventual winner.
Seismica
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Vettel took a wide entry and cut right back to the apex. When the cars are so bunched up on the first lap you can't do that, because somebody is going to fill that space (Which predictably, two cars did). Vettel didn't leave any space on the inside therefore it was his fault.
The Stewards consistently make decisions based on the consequences of an incident and not the causes. Vettel caused this incident, but the consequence was that he was pushed back to last place. The Stewards deemed this punishment enough, so decided not to investigate the incident as no penalty would have been applied regardless of the judgement.
With Hulkenberg it was a different story, he took out Hamilton but then carried on, losing no places in the process. There was no consequence to Nico because he was in the same position as he was before the incident, so the Stewards decided they needed to even things out a bit.
That is why I don't agree with the Stewards' approach, it introduces double standards because punishments are handed out based on how a driver comes out of an incident, which can end up with the 'victim' getting a penalty because his car survived the hit, or for wreckless driving going unpunished because they damaged their own race aswell as the person(s) they hit.
In other words, it's alright in the eyes of the Stewards if you take two drivers out as long as you lose a few places and take a bit of damage yourself.
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- SiiverArrow
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How can they come to a conclusion without an investigation?
When they investigate an incident and no punishment is given, both the investigation and the fact no punishment is given are announced. They didn't investigate.
As far as I'm aware, they've investigated every other incident where a collision has resulted in a vehicle retirement this season. They've announced "no further action" on a handful of occasions. This incident wasn't investigated. This is the inconsistency.
After watching the replay of the incident (for several times now) it seems more like a race incident IMO.
After Kimi's lock up there was a pretty big cloud of smoke, Vettel uses the same line that Kimi was using after Kimi went of the track, meaning that he would have to use another race line in which he has to cross the car a bit more into the apex, Vettel has two cars on his back, and there is no way in which Vettel could see all 3 cars surrounding him at the same time(he was a bit ahead of them, giving him only space to see the two cars behind him, Bruno was on a position much more close to the apex, position which Vettel can't see, at all). After the two cars found themselves nearly at the apex, Vettel keeps his raceline not being able to see the car besides him(Bruno), at the same time Bruno has not enough grip to close the apex on the corner on time.
The lack of grip by Bruno or him not being able to close his race line leaning more into the apex caused the crashed, Vettel was boxed and in a position in which he had to let the car go wide(which would give an underhand to the cars behind him) or follow his race line, Vettel followed his race-line, just as Bruno did, but neither could see the other one(Bruno was too distracted passing however was in the left side of the back of Vettel), which led to the crash.
Something that can't assign blames TBH, too many cars on the scene to actually blame Vettel for it, and they both were in a position in which it would be too hard for them to go out cleanly. This is a pretty big race incident IMO.
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Okey doke, last of these of the season from me.
Firstly, huge congrats to Vettel. It's no secret that I'm not his greatest fan, but he went from having a fairly average first half of the season to being genuinely competitive by the end, and although I still think he's a long, long way from being the best in traffic, he's still done a good job getting through the field at a few races towards the end.
Also, his interview with Lee McKenzie after the race was quite touching. It obviously means a hell of a lot to him, and it's always nice to see a driver who really appreciates what he does.
But anyway, on with 2013! And for now, Brazil:
Button - Not the first time we've seen him clean up in a changeable race, and won't be the last. Good start and end to the season - shame about the middle!
Alonso - Gutted for him. Driven like a demon all year. No hesitation in saying he's done the best job of anyone on the grid, even though he's lost out to Vettel - he's simply done more with less. Also, wicked car control on that lap he stayed out a little too long in the rain - was sure he'd stack it into the barriers there but awesome save.
Massa - Whatever Ferrari has fed him for the last five or six races, I want some. If he starts next season like he's ended this one, I'd not put it past him being a championship contender. In fact, I might put a cheeky few quid on him, just in case.
The rest
Hamilton - Great drive, scuppered in a racing incident. Hopefully he has better luck next year.
Hulkenburg - No hard feelings, really. He drove bloody well, and a simple error which anybody could have made helped end Hamilton's race.
Vettel - Have to come back to him here. Still a deserving champ, but by 'eck the boy is lucky - how many times has he clouted the car heavily this year and still been able to continue? Red Bull should start making military vehicles, given the punishment they seem to be able to take...
Schuey - Good drive in his last race. Real shame he's not managed a win during his comeback years.
di Resta - Scary incident. Another good race up until then, save for the spin earlier on.
Senna - Shame to see him have another crash. Think he has to admit fault there, but I'd be generous and say it was a racing incident. There was little other place he could go, and Vettel turned across him unsighted. Just one of those things.
Kobayashi - Some pretty damn good racing out there again, until his incident with Schumacher. I'd like to see him get a drive next year, but it's looking unlikely.
The race as a whole...
Really enjoyed it. Proper end of season nail-biter. Anyone else just prefer races at old tracks like Brazil to the characterless Tilke-designed circuits?...
Firstly, huge congrats to Vettel. It's no secret that I'm not his greatest fan, but he went from having a fairly average first half of the season to being genuinely competitive by the end, and although I still think he's a long, long way from being the best in traffic, he's still done a good job getting through the field at a few races towards the end.
Also, his interview with Lee McKenzie after the race was quite touching. It obviously means a hell of a lot to him, and it's always nice to see a driver who really appreciates what he does.
But anyway, on with 2013! And for now, Brazil:
Button - Not the first time we've seen him clean up in a changeable race, and won't be the last. Good start and end to the season - shame about the middle!
Alonso - Gutted for him. Driven like a demon all year. No hesitation in saying he's done the best job of anyone on the grid, even though he's lost out to Vettel - he's simply done more with less. Also, wicked car control on that lap he stayed out a little too long in the rain - was sure he'd stack it into the barriers there but awesome save.
Massa - Whatever Ferrari has fed him for the last five or six races, I want some. If he starts next season like he's ended this one, I'd not put it past him being a championship contender. In fact, I might put a cheeky few quid on him, just in case.
The rest
Hamilton - Great drive, scuppered in a racing incident. Hopefully he has better luck next year.
Hulkenburg - No hard feelings, really. He drove bloody well, and a simple error which anybody could have made helped end Hamilton's race.
Vettel - Have to come back to him here. Still a deserving champ, but by 'eck the boy is lucky - how many times has he clouted the car heavily this year and still been able to continue? Red Bull should start making military vehicles, given the punishment they seem to be able to take...
Schuey - Good drive in his last race. Real shame he's not managed a win during his comeback years.
di Resta - Scary incident. Another good race up until then, save for the spin earlier on.
Senna - Shame to see him have another crash. Think he has to admit fault there, but I'd be generous and say it was a racing incident. There was little other place he could go, and Vettel turned across him unsighted. Just one of those things.
Kobayashi - Some pretty damn good racing out there again, until his incident with Schumacher. I'd like to see him get a drive next year, but it's looking unlikely.
The race as a whole...
Really enjoyed it. Proper end of season nail-biter. Anyone else just prefer races at old tracks like Brazil to the characterless Tilke-designed circuits?...
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- Ardius_
I think he did use them, saw Di Resta but didn't see Senna. It was mere split seconds between the car in his mirrors being Di Resta to suddenly Senna making a duck out and dive move.
Plus Vettel had Raikkonen getting a bit messy on the brakes to his right to distract him and he had to avoid running into Webber in front.
Maybe he should drive staring in the mirrors all the time but thats probably not a great way to go motor racing.
