2014 Belgian Grand Prix

[niky]

whenever I bring up an implicit rule, they jump all over me.

Implicit to you, apparently, and not to any of the analysts, stewards or drivers... except, of course, Maldonado... because, in his mind, it's never his fault.

Bottom line:

Guy on the inside and with his nose ahead controls the corner. Period. That's how it is in racing.

As long as the rules do not explicitly state that a driver has to leave space throughout the entire corner, the liability rests solely on the overtaking driver to get his nose ahead enough to control the corner or simply cede the racing line.

 

[BHRxRacer]

Implicit to you, apparently, and not to any of the analysts, stewards or drivers... except, of course, Maldonado... because, in his mind, it's never his fault.

Bottom line:

Guy on the inside and with his nose ahead controls the corner. Period. That's how it is in racing.

As long as the rules do not explicitly state that a driver has to leave space throughout the entire corner, the liability rests solely on the overtaking driver to get his nose ahead enough to control the corner or simply cede the racing line.

That's how it is in your racing, my racing, Nico Rosberg's racing (before Hungary). That's not F1 racing. Why do you think there's been complaints of overstrictness? Why do you think they've been told to let them race lately?

20.5 says you can't hinder another driver. I remember Charlie, and other pundits saying that nowadays if you have as much of your front wing alongside a car anywhere in the corner(not just on the straight), you're allowed space as if there was a wall there. You're not required to brake and follow.

Let me guess, citation required?

 

[niky]

Nope. The rules say straights and braking zones. I've read everything Whiting has said regarding the rule clarification, and at no time did he mention mid-corner or corner exit. If you're saying he says it applies midcorner, too, citation required. I'm getting tired of looking things up for you.

Also:

That ladies and gentleman, is how to defend your line without breaking the rules. Brought to you by Schumacher almighty.

Raikkonen was ahead on corner entry, didn't over-brake, stayed perfectly parallel to Schumi. Schumi had no choice. Maldonado outbraked himself, slowed down too much, and ceded the corner exit, allowing Hamilton to control the corner. Not exactly the same. Especially since neither Kimi nor Michael went off the track, kept their foot down and speared into the other guy.

Also, we're citing Schumacher for clean driving... really?

 

[BHRxRacer]

Nope. The rules say straights and braking zones. I've read everything Whiting has said regarding the rule clarification, and at no time did he mention mid-corner or corner exit. If you're saying he says it applies midcorner, too, citation required. I'm getting tired of looking things up for you.

That's the thing, my citations are either from talking to people at the paddock, or 5GB+ files of several race feeds per GP for years. I'm not going to look through each one. I tried google, didn't help.

I'm getting tired of having to come up with something from the freakin' internet to support my claim. I've heard it from professionals in person and on TV. You either take my word for, understand why some would share my view, or say "I don't believe you", preferably in a nice way, and move on.

Maldonado outbraked himself, slowed down too much,

Nope. I don't see how it's difficult to see. If Hamilton was not there, he'd make the corner perfectly. If you can make the corner perfectly, you didn't outbrake yourself.

Also, we're citing Schumacher for clean driving... really?

Hey, if Senna and Hamilton are heroes, why not?

 

[niky]

You either take my word for, understand why some would share my view, or say "I don't believe you", preferably in a nice way, and move on.

And I've dug up video feeds for you, where you claim the presenter has said something he has not. I've trawled internet archives for twitter headers you remember that have turned out to be different from what you claimed.

So, yes, I do have a lot of reasons for not believing your appeal to authorities who don't actually agree with you.

I'd like to remind you: Here at GTPlanet, we expect truth and accuracy. Either you report truly and back up your claims, or you cease claiming people have said things they haven't.

Nope. I don't see how it's difficult to see. If Hamilton was not there, he'd make the corner perfectly. If you can make the corner perfectly, you didn't outbrake yourself.

Maldonado's exit was very, very slow. Which is why Hamilton came out in front. With Kimi v. Schumacher, Kimi had the line, he had the pace, and he kept right alongside Schumacher on the exit.

Obviously, he would have made the corner if Hamilton was not there. Because then he would be on the racing line.

Hey, if Senna and Hamilton are heroes, why not?

Whose heroes are they again?

Well-deserved penalty for Lewis Hamilton. That was a stupid move.

And regarding lie-gate:

But outright obstruction (Schumi's qualifying "glitch" which saw him blocking the track during the closing of qualifying... McLaren's slowing down in qualifying while others were hotlapping...), knocking opponents off track and other such behavior have no place in the sport.

I rate Hamilton. As a driver. As a person, I think he's a total dick. Just like I think Schumacher is a total dick, and Ayrton is a reckless, impulsive danger to his opponents. This does not stop them from being excellent drivers.

I'll give them praise where it is due, and I'll criticize where it is due.

I don't view the world through rose-tinted glasses. I simply call things as I see them.

Nico in Monaco: not intentional.

Nico here: not intentional, but very stupid.

 

[BHRxRacer]

And I've dug up video feeds for you, where you claim the presenter has said something he has not. I've trawled internet archives for twitter headers you remember that have turned out to be different from what you claimed.

I won't argue the times you've dug up something that's not in line with what I said because I have no energy/memory at the moment, but I do remember getting a bit pissed at the Murray Walker one then I had to quote him word for word to you.

I do genuinely appreciate your effort in trying to find things that confirm what I say though.

I'd like to remind you: Here at GTPlanet, we expect truth and accuracy. Either you report truly and back up your claims, or you cease claiming people have said things they haven't.

Citation required for having driven 300,000km+ in the past 10 years.


Know how I feel now?

Maldonado's exit was very, very slow.

No, it was as good as Hamilton's.

Which is why Hamilton came out in front.

In front at which point exactly, and by how much?

Because then he would be on the racing line.

No I mean if Hamilton was invisible and Maldonado applied the same amount of brake force at the same time, and the same turn in etc.

Whose heroes are they again?

Have you not seen the 1000000000000000000000000000000000000 ass kissing programs by sky and pretty much the majority of F1 fans during Senna week?

I rate Hamilton. As a driver. As a person, I think he's a total dick. Just like I think Schumacher is a total dick, and Ayrton is a reckless, impulsive danger to his opponents. This does not stop them from being excellent drivers.

Hey wait, so Lewis is a total dick, Schumi is a total dick....and Ayrton is not?

I'll give them praise where it is due, and I'll criticize where it is due.

Like I do then.

Nico in Monaco: not intentional.

Nico here: not intentional, but very stupid.

I agree. Try saying that to the fanboys, or to Johnny Herbert.


Goodnight GTP. I'll be back.

 

[niky]

Citation required for having driven 300,000km+ in the past 10 years.

Know how I feel now?

Nope.

If you would like odometer pictures, you'll have to wait a while. I'm currently working. Of course, that won't prove anything, because I'm not the only driver in the household, but we have two cars with 120k (though one has been through a flood, and the odometer is dead), and one with 250k.

We sold one a while back with 200k on the odometer, but that was purchased secondhand at 150k.

-

Beyond that, I average around 500-1,000 kilometers per test unit, and that's around one to two test units a month, or up to four a week, when I'm unlucky. For those I did from my first test drive until around 2010 or so, you'll have to check webarchive.org for bigbigcar.com (and even then, drives for 2010 were in the forums, not on the main page). After that, everything is available on kotse.com... and for the past two years, at Top Gear Philippines, on the website and in the print magazine... which you can download from buqo.com. It'll cost you, though.

I only put about two to three kilometers on the hundreds of others we've done for COTY, but those are easy to dig up... as it's a matter of public record.

http://caroftheyear.ph/

-

As for how you feel... I can and do research articles, videos and interviews to back my opinions up. If I can't find something, I don't use it or cite it.

Pretty simple way of doing things, really. Researching for a debate point is the quickest way to back up your arguments.

No, it was as good as Hamilton's.

Which is obviously why he ended up behind Hamilton despite reaching the apex nose to nose? Again, nope.

In front at which point exactly, and by how much?

Corner exit, by a nose, then a wheel, then half a car length. At which point Maldonado finally ceded the corner.

No I mean if Hamilton was invisible and Maldonado applied the same amount of brake force at the same time, and the same turn in etc.

Let's be clear... Maldonado got it wrong because he did not get the cleanest braking and exit for his given vector. Which is why Lewis was able to push him out.

Have you not seen the 1000000000000000000000000000000000000 ass kissing programs by sky and pretty much the majority of F1 fans during Senna week?

I have. But you're debating with me.

Hey wait, so Lewis is a total dick, Schumi is a total dick....and Ayrton is not?

I'm not saying Ayrton didn't do dickish things. The difference here is that Schumacher and Hamilton, when they've bent and broken the rules, they did it in a very calculated manner. Ayrton... he did stupid things out of emotion, really. Though that's not to say some of his more infamous incidents were not done without some forethought.

Like I do then.

In the past, you have criticized Lewis Hamilton for every single incident he's been involved in, whether the rules, the stewards and the analysts have deemed him the perpetrator or victim. Excuse me for not being impressed with your supposed impartiality without being presented with evidence to the contrary.

I have given him the benefit of the doubt when there was doubt, then criticized him when doubt was removed.

The true test of impartiality is the ability to change your mind when presented with new evidence.

You should try it, sometime.

Goodnight GTP. I'll be back.

We tremble in anticipation. Truly.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@BHRxRacer, there are 21 other accidents awaiting each driver at the start of a race. Sometimes one of those is visited on a driver completely outside their own fault and irregardless of the statistical probability that the driver will cause such an incident themselves.

Each driver is pushing the bounds of legal acceptability in the technical and sporting regulations in order to take the biggest advantage over their rivals... at least those heading for WDCs often are.

The idea that Driver X (no relation to Malcolm, it's not what you think) is more to blame in an incident because they caused a similar one themselves is irrelevant. Each case is judged on the position and movement of the cars above all else.

You don't seem to be able employ that same impartiality, at least not from what I've read in here in recent pages.

It's a long time since I saw a 24 Months of Spa thread though, who's winning?

 

[Famine]

@Famine no comment on me not blaming Hamilton for an incident?

Looked like you were still putting some blame on Hamilton:

The crash with Massa at India 99% Massa's fault.

Which proved my earlier point. No comment necessary.

 

[Peasantslayer]

Hamilton's car moved mid corner.... how else did his tire get blown?

Probably from Rosberg turning right into his tyre.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

While Rosbergs move was awful and should have resulted in a penatly, I doubt that he did it on purpose. We overanalyze things while watching slow mo footage but tend to forget that Rosberg would have to make that split aecond decision in the middle of the corner after a failed overtaking attempt while doing race speed... Lets not forget the sheer amount of pressure he has on his shoulders as a championship contender.

IMO the incident (and his overtaking attempt at Vettel later) proofed what a terrible wheel to wheel racer Rosberg is. Still, I was impressed by his recovery and the fact that he still tried to go for the race win, eventhough P2 was secured.

I think Nico is a nice bloke and I feel sorry for him that he is taking the flak from the whole F1.

What depresses me even more is that merc lost another race and Ric is getting closer and closer. They could have won every race so far with that car, yet failed so many times

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

There's such a thing as not liking a driver, and then there's having an agenda that knows no boundries. It's a shame these F1 threads get filled with the same manure after every single race due to uncompromising hatred of one driver.

 

[Grayfox]

There's such a thing as not liking a driver, and then there's having an agenda that knows no boundries. It's a shame these F1 threads get filled with the same manure after every single race due to uncompromising hatred of one driver.

These drivers.

Are either idiots that crash into everything.

Or think so highly of them self's they act like gods when they are winning and babies when they are losing.

 

[peter_vod69]

No No No No No No No

Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[Famine]

These drivers.

Are either idiots that crash into everything.

Or think so highly of them self's they act like gods when they are winning and babies when they are losing.

Yes - these are Formula 1 threads after all.

 

[VolkswagenX]

While Rosbergs move was awful and should have resulted in a penatly, I doubt that he did it on purpose. We overanalyze things while watching slow mo footage but tend to forget that Rosberg would have to make that split aecond decision in the middle of the corner after a failed overtaking attempt while doing race speed... Lets not forget the sheer amount of pressure he has on his shoulders as a championship contender.

IMO the incident (and his overtaking attempt at Vettel later) proofed what a terrible wheel to wheel racer Rosberg is. Still, I was impressed by his recovery and the fact that he still tried to go for the race win, eventhough P2 was secured.

I think Nico is a nice bloke and I feel sorry for him that he is taking the flak from the whole F1.

What depresses me even more is that merc lost another race and Ric is getting closer and closer. They could have won every race so far with that car, yet failed so many times

I think most people in this thread agree that this was a racing incident ( a stupid mistake by Rosberg) that cost Mercedes a 1-2 result. The problem with some in here is that instead of seeing this for what it is ( a racing incident), they try to turn it around and put all of the blame on Hamilton.

I'm not a fan of Hamilton, but this guy has had a lot of bad luck this season and I can't understand why some here try to blame him for everything.

Just imagine what would happen if the move Rosberg made on Hamilton was the way to go and the car in front has to move out of the way. No need for drs if this is the new way to go.

 

[Swagger897]

Probably from Rosberg turning right into his tyre.

in a left turn.... yeah i think not..

 

[Peasantslayer]

in a left turn.... yeah i think not..

Sorry I assumed that you had seen the on board.

http://wtf1.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/hamiltonrosbercrash.gif

 

[G.T.Ace]

Definitely not how you overtake at Les Combes.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Having ignored a particular user, my browser gives the appearance that niky is having a long and difficult argument with himself.

 

[Ninners]

Having ignored a particular user, my browser gives the appearance that niky is having a long and difficult argument with himself.

Same here.

 

[Roflwaffle]

That's why I don't use the ignore function. It just looks weird.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

I think most people in this thread agree that this was a racing incident ( a stupid mistake by Rosberg) that cost Mercedes a 1-2 result. The problem with some in here is that instead of seeing this for what it is ( a racing incident), they try to turn it around and put all of the blame on Hamilton.

I'm not a fan of Hamilton, but this guy has had a lot of bad luck this season and I can't understand why some here try to blame him for everything.

Just imagine what would happen if the move Rosberg made on Hamilton was the way to go and the car in front has to move out of the way. No need for drs if this is the new way to go.

I totally aggree with you about Hamiltons bad luck. So many lost points through car issues, his recovery at hungary was simply amazing.

Rosberg is -in my opinion- not as great and complete driver als Alonso, Hamilton or Ric (I would also include Vet, but he seems to somehow lost his mojo). We saw it last race with his clumsy overtakes. Yet I appreciate the fact that this guy seems to give his heart and soul for the championship, maybe knowing that this will be his only chance to win it at all.

Rosberg would make an great champion, but now the title got tainted for the majority of fans and press because of this incident.

 

[niky]

Having ignored a particular user, my browser gives the appearance that niky is having a long and difficult argument with himself.

Damn your sorcerous Staff Emeritus powers!

 

[TenEightyOne]

in a left turn.... yeah i think not..

I'll go over it again, read it more slowly this time. You can still go to the right in a left hand turn. It's confusing, I admit, but that's how steering has worked on all my cars*. I imagine F1 calibration differs little.

*Partial retraction.... not on my Scalextric...

 

[Grayfox]

Damn your sorcerous Staff Emeritus powers!

If a mod ignores a member and that member posts something against the AUP, can that mod still see the post or does another mod have to act.

 

[niky]

If a mod ignores a member and that member posts something against the AUP, can that mod still see the post or does another mod have to act.

The only staff who can ignore posts are the Staff Emeritus.

Or so I've heard. I've never used an ignore button, myself. I am physically incapable of ignoring incorrect information.

 

[Swagger897]

Sorry I assumed that you had seen the on board.

http://wtf1.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/hamiltonrosbercrash.gif

what I see is an obvious attempt not to cause an incident, yet Hamilton still shut the door on him... I cannont take a screenshot of it though.

I'll go over it again, read it more slowly this time. You can still go to the right in a left hand turn. It's confusing, I admit, but that's how steering has worked on all my cars*. I imagine F1 calibration differs little.

*Partial retraction.... not on my Scalextric...

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

Do people in America really find this man funny?

 

[Grayfox]

Do people in America really find this man funny?

British Humor is not funny to an Australia.
Australian humor is not funny to a British.
US humor is not funny to either British or Australia.