2014 Belgian Grand Prix

[MonSpaNur]

Maldonado had to leave the track (because he was the following car and Hamilton took the racing line)

Yes, you are right.
But only now.
And not when I learned track etiquette.
No run-off areas at that time.
But a lot of respect for the other drivers.

Your words would sound like:
Maldonado had to commit suicide.

My comment was based in this values, pity they are no longer followed by many.
Then we have this ridiculous fracas, analysed frame by frame, inch by inch, instead of a good old fight for position.
But, to be fair, lately the situation is showing a very good improvement.

 

[Famine]

I still see no source that says the car ahead is entitled to the racing line.

Okay.

And for the record, Maldonado did not choose to leave the track, he was forced off.

He chose to keep his foot in and his steering open to leave the track. His alternative was to back off and slot in behind, which he chose not to do. He then chose to re-enter the circuit dangerously, cause a collision and end another driver's race.

Stop making this about me or Hamilton

You make it about Hamilton every time you post in an F1 thread.

I don't know what he did to you, but you've got a real problem with him. The fact you will never, by your own admission, absolve him of fault in any collision that involves him pretty much ends your participation in any rational discussion about him.

Yes, you are right.
But only now.
And not when I learned track etiquette.
No run-off areas at that time.
But a lot of respect for the other drivers.

Your words would sound like:
Maldonado had to commit suicide.

At Monaco, where they still have barriers and no run off areas, Maldonado's choices would have been "back off and slot in behind" or "crash".

I don't think we'd have to guess what Maldonado would have chosen


You're right that run-offs - while greatly improving the safety aspect - encourage drivers to take real liberties with the track limits and create incidents like this. If the white lines were walls, there's be a lot more respect for the track limits - and quite a few more deaths. I think a four foot wide strip of gravel would help them out a bit - or some big-ass sausage kerbs with occasional gaps for motorbikes to get through undamaged.

 

[Swagger897]

Indeed - because Grosjean was on the track and had a significant portion of his car alongside - he was required to leave room.

Maldonado was no longer on the track and was required to rejoin the circuit only when safe to do so. He failed.

how is that any different than in the case with Maldonado? He too was alongside, but does not mean he is required to give way at all to Lewis in this case...

And this racing line bogus crap-filled nonsense is ridiculous as well... Imaginary friends are ideas some people make up and choose to believe in, others not so much. Racing lines, as much as people think they exist, are just really good estimates, depending on the driver's specifications, as to where to point the car. You dont have to follow them, and they generally change a lot..

No, feel free to read the post again.

Umm... Lewis V Kimi should've been unnaceptable (EDIT: was unnaceptable... forgot)... otherwise, Kimi would've killed him.
Lewis V Rosberg should've been unnaceptable... Lewis has mirrors, and you can take 3 & 4 two wide..

 

[BHRxRacer]

Okay.

So where is it? Are you retracting what you said?

He chose to keep his foot in and his steering open to leave the track. His alternative was to back off and slot in behind, which he chose not to do.

He's not obliged to back off and slot behind. His real alternative was to stay within the track limits and get taken out, then report Hamilton to the (bias, ignorant) stewards.

What he does after he leaves the track is not the discussion.

You make it about Hamilton every time you post in an F1 thread.

Is that a scientific fact? hmm..

Massa didn't fade. "Alonso was faster than him" at some stage and he let him pass. After that he did a great job to stay close to Webber. Oh and Webber start wasn't that bad actually, he just lost out trying to fight Sebastian in the first corner IIRC.


@Pupik noted.

Nope. Since you're all about being accurate etc, retract your statement.

The fact you will never, by your own admission, absolve him of fault in any collision that involves him pretty much ends your participation in any rational discussion about him.

That was not a fact, that was a joke. Mocking how you much you think I hate him. @TenEightyOne got it.

Lewis V Kimi should've been unnaceptable

Absolutely unacceptable. -Wolffinator

 

[Swagger897]

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/report...ould-persuade-lewis-hamilton-to-quit-mercedes

 

[Famine]

how is that any different than in the case with Maldonado? He too was alongside, but does not mean he is required to give way at all to Lewis in this case...

I've literally just posted this to the guy who'd blame Hamilton for any crash... why do I have to repeat it?

Grosjean is ahead of Hamilton at the apex of the corner. Hamilton is ahead of Maldonado at the apex of the corner. The leading driver gets to pick his line and the other guy has to take what he can get.

Now, let's keep that in mind and then read the post...

Grosjean was ahead of Hamilton going into the corner. That means he gets to choose his line and Hamilton has to position his car safely. With Grosjean still alongside him and on the track, he had to leave room into the next left-hander for Grosjean's car.

Maldonado was behind Hamilton going into the corner. That means he has to position his car safely while the other chooses his line. He chose to leave the track rather than cede the line, so Hamilton did not have to leave any room for the left hander. Maldonado then chose to drive back onto it without ensuring it was clear to do so.

See, the difference is that Grosjean was ahead on the apex and Hamilton effectively has to position his car where he thinks Grosjean won't be. In the case of Maldonado, Hamilton was ahead on the apex and Maldonado has to instead.

Grosjean made the corner and, though Hamilton was now slightly ahead on the bit before the next corner, Hamilton cannot squeeze him off the track - he's already there. What Maldonado did was run off the track and so no room is needed.

Of course Maldonado is Maldonado...


Let's fastforward two years. Hamilton is ahead on the apex and Rosberg has to position his car where he thinks Hamilton won't be. He apparently chooses to leave his car partially alongside Hamilton's, to "prove a point"...

And this racing line bogus crap-filled nonsense is ridiculous as well... Imaginary friends are ideas some people make up and choose to believe in, others not so much. Racing lines, as much as people think they exist, are just really good estimates, depending on the driver's specifications, as to where to point the car. You dont have to follow them, and they generally change a lot..

Never said anything about the racing line - although the FIA Sporting Regulations actually do, regarding positional defence on straights and in braking zones...

So where is it? Are you retracting what you said?

No.

He's not obliged to back off and slot behind.

Yes he is.

His real alternative was to stay within the track limits and get taken out, then report Hamilton to the (bias, ignorant) stewards.

As the driver behind at the apex, he would be deemed to have caused the collision.

What he does after he leaves the track is not the discussion.

Actually it is - he chose to re-enter dangerously and smash into Hamilton's sidepod.

Is that a scientific fact? hmm..

Nope. Since you're all about being accurate etc, retract your statement

Actually, that was a joke. Mocking how much you think I think you hate him. Sauce for the goose, Mr Saavik.

That was not a fact, that was a joke. Mocking how you much you think I hate him. @TenEightyOne got it.

Then answer the question with honesty.

 

[TenEightyOne]

That was not a fact, that was a joke. Mocking how you much you think I hate him. @TenEightyOne got it.

With friends like you I'm not sure I need enemies.

Regarding your question about 20.4;

Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.

I'm not sure why the TV team are surprised about this, it's the rule that covers overtaking and I think most of the fans are well aware of it.

Nontheless; "provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his". There's the crux. That's like a cross, but don't get ideas.

 

[Swagger897]

Roll the clip at 2:00

or watch it all.... It doesn't really help him that he still keeps these double standards from 3 years ago..

 

[Peasantslayer]

Hamilton drove like an idiot in 2011, this is nothing new. At first we were just talking about this incident being right or wrong, then how Nico and Lewis have been this season and now your showing clips from 2011 when Lewis was a very different driver, next you'll be posting videos of Lewis being aggressive as a kid in karting.

Massa backing up Button really.

http://thisisf1.com/2014/08/25/massa-rosberg-couldve-been-penalised-for-hamilton-crash/

 

[Bopop4]

Probably ignored it because there is no reason the cite something that is one of the basic racing laws.

Seeing this it's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Try racing with that metality in real life and see how far it gets you, first race you'd end up being black flagged after the first lap.

I still see no source that says the car ahead is entitled to the racing line.

Stop making this about me or Hamilton and provide a citation for the "car ahead" rule.

Thanks for proving my point yet again.

 

[Famine]

Roll the clip at 2:00

or watch it all.... It doesn't really help him that he still keeps these double standards from 3 years ago..

That's racing drivers for you - I mean, earlier on you've seen clips and gifs from Rosberg complaining he's being run off the road (with ten foot of road to his left) followed by Rosberg literally pushing Alonso off the side of the straight at Bahrain - which is actually against the section 20 rules everyone's been quoting for two days.

It's rare to find a driver who doesn't drive like a bell to others and then whine when they do it to him. Even Button has had a whine about others doing to him what he's done to others and he's just about the fairest guy on the grid.

Hamilton's a big whiny baby. But so is Alonso, Vettel, Rosberg, Webber, Raikkonen, Massa, Grosjean, Maldonado, Kobayashi (oh boy, Kamui ), Perez... and on and on. Not heard Magnussen or Bottas whinge much. Yet.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It doesn't really help him that he still keeps these double standards from 3 years ago..

Seriously?

They're on a fast straight, Hamilton is significantly alongside in space and Massa turns across. Completely different to being in a slow S-bend and driving into a gap that's already closing. And that's from a Massa/Ferrari fan.

 

[BHRxRacer]

I've literally just posted this to the guy who'd blame Hamilton for any crash... why do I have to repeat it?See, the difference is that Grosjean was ahead on the apex and Hamilton effectively has to position his car where he thinks Grosjean won't be. In the case of Maldonado, Hamilton was ahead on the apex and Maldonado has to instead.

Grosjean made the corner and, though Hamilton was now slightly ahead on the bit before the next corner, Hamilton cannot squeeze him off the track - he's already there. What Maldonado did was run off the track and so no room is needed.

Of course Maldonado is Maldonado...


Let's fastforward two years. Hamilton is ahead on the apex and Rosberg has to position his car where he thinks Hamilton won't be. He apparently chooses to leave his car partially alongside Hamilton's, to "prove a point"...Never said anything about the racing line - although the FIA Sporting Regulations actually do, regarding positional defence on straights and in braking zones...
No.Yes he is.As the driver behind at the apex, he would be deemed to have caused the collision.Actually it is - he chose to re-enter dangerously and smash into Hamilton's sidepod.Actually, that was a joke. Mocking how much you think I think you hate him. Sauce for the goose, Mr Saavik.Then answer the question with honesty.

Your question has no answer. It won't be his fault when it won't be his fault. When I see an incident that isn't his fault, I'll let you know.


AGAIN, how being ahead relevant? Give me a source that says in F1, it makes a difference if Grosjean/Maldonado are ahead. Do this and I'll wear a Hamilton avatar.

With friends like you I'm not sure I need enemies.

What do you mean?

If you're bothered I tagged you, sorry. I have to show some members that it's not my fault they don't understand me, because at least one other person did.

Roll the clip at 2:00

or watch it all.... It doesn't really help him that he still keeps these double standards from 3 years ago..

Demonstrates my first post here exactly. Thank you.

edit

Thanks for proving my point yet again.

Oi, I'm all for implicit rules but that's not what @niky said many times. If rules are rules (as written), then we must follow them to the word. In this case, there are NO WRITTEN RULES saying the car ahead has the power.

 

[Famine]

Your question has no answer. It won't be his fault when it won't be his fault. When I see an incident that isn't his fault, I'll let you know.

Really? Only we're discussing one and using another as an example and you're claiming both are in-part or in-whole his fault.

AGAIN, how being ahead relevant? Give me a source that says in F1, it makes a difference if Grosjean/Maldonado are ahead. Do this and I'll wear a Hamilton avatar.

Read through the Sporting Regulations if you like.

 

[niky]

provide a citation for the "car ahead" rule.

You've already read it a dozen times, without actually reading it. Let's go over it again:

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8683/fia.html

20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

As noted here:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/07/12/fia-issues-clarification-defensive-driving/

Emphasis is given to the portion "on a straight, and before any braking area"... ergo... not corners.

The onus is upon you to show us a rule emphasizing that the drivers are required to leave space midcorner. Because there isn't. 20.2 says you must leave space on the approach to the corner if you've already moved off the line to defend, but that's still not applicable midcorner.

The rule you so often quote:

20.5

Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

Is the only one applicable midcorner, and requires you to prove deliberate crowding. As in: The driver has no other reason to be on that part of the track other than to force the other guy off. Which is patently not true if you're ahead, on the racing line, and don't deviate from it.

If you move off the racing line, then back into it to force the other guy off, you're penalized for an abnormal change of direction.

If you move off the racing line to push a guy off the track, you're penalized for deliberate crowding.

If you follow the line and a car is trying to come up on the inside where there's no space, he gets penalized. If you follow the line and a car is trying to come up on the outside where there's no space, as your car drifts out on the exit, he will sometimes get penalized.

The following driver always has the responsibility to avoid a collision. If you know the racing line is going left, there's really no excuse to drive across it, when another car is already there.

He's not obliged to back off and slot behind.

Good luck ever talking your way out of a ticket when you nose into someone's rear fender when merging on the highway.

 

[BHRxRacer]

Really? Only we're discussing one and using another as an example and you're claiming both are in-part or in-whole his fault.

The crash with Massa at India 99% Massa's fault. Happy?

Read through the Sporting Regulations if you like.

I did, nothing in them about the guy ahead.

 

[Pupik]

It's difficult to see other competitors and racing lines when you're blinded by hate for another driver.

@BHRxRacer: Don't drag me into a discussion for which I have no part of.

 

[jtv90069]

AGAIN, how being ahead relevant? Give me a source that says in F1, it makes a difference if Grosjean/Maldonado are ahead. Do this and I'll wear a Hamilton avatar.

A driver trying to fend off an overtaking move from an opponent must rely on his ability to pick the correct braking points and cornering lines. A skilful driver can also hold off an opponent by adopting a defensive yet legal driving style. Typically this means reducing the angle available for the car behind to use going into corners where there is a substantial risk of being passed. Providing that the driver ahead only changes his line once going into a corner (not deliberately attempting to block the car behind) this is a perfectly justifiable form of racing, and with it a driver in an inferior car can successfully hold off a faster rival.

Narrowing the car behind's angle through corners can also force it to take a later apex and even run wide, even if it has successfully made the pass - and this can result in the slower car getting back in front again. A side-effect of this defensive driving is that it tends to slow both drivers down.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_f1_racing/5293.html

 

[Hun200kmh]

While we are at it ... why not go a bit further back?







Or even ...



From eras when brazilians weren't whiny underachievers, but ruthless overachievers!

 

[Swagger897]

Hamilton drove like an idiot in 2011, this is nothing new. At first we were just talking about this incident being right or wrong, then how Nico and Lewis have been this season and now your showing clips from 2011 when Lewis was a very different driver, next you'll be posting videos of Lewis being aggressive as a kid in karting.

Massa backing up Button really.

http://thisisf1.com/2014/08/25/massa-rosberg-couldve-been-penalised-for-hamilton-crash/

How do you explain him being a world champion in 2008?

That's racing drivers for you - I mean, earlier on you've seen clips and gifs from Rosberg complaining he's being run off the road (with ten foot of road to his left) followed by Rosberg literally pushing Alonso off the side of the straight at Bahrain - which is actually against the section 20 rules everyone's been quoting for two days.

It's rare to find a driver who doesn't drive like a bell to others and then whine when they do it to him. Even Button has had a whine about others doing to him what he's done to others and he's just about the fairest guy on the grid.

Hamilton's a big whiny baby. But so is Alonso, Vettel, Rosberg, Webber, Raikkonen, Massa, Grosjean, Maldonado, Kobayashi (oh boy, Kamui ), Perez... and on and on. Not heard Magnussen or Bottas whinge much. Yet.

Which stands to prove another point... people do anything for 17 million a year... If only people were like Lotterer, the world would be a lot better..

Good luck ever talking your way out of a ticket when you nose into someone's rear fender when merging on the highway.

You haven't driven enough then..

Seriously?

They're on a fast straight, Hamilton is significantly alongside in space and Massa turns across. Completely different to being in a slow S-bend and driving into a gap that's already closing. And that's from a Massa/Ferrari fan.

Apparently discussed above, whoever is in front owns the road, and whoever is behind must bow down... Rules are rules apparently..

 

[niky]

You haven't driven enough then..

Having logged over 300,000 kilometers over the past ten years in something like 200 different cars, I beg to differ.

In traffic accidents, the driver with the last clear chance to avoid the collision has the most liability.

If your excuse, after barging into someone, is "he should have left me more space," when you had the chance to brake to a stop to avoid the collision, you're not going to impress the judge much.

Roll the clip at 2:00

or watch it all.... It doesn't really help him that he still keeps these double standards from 3 years ago..

Lewis from three years ago is not Lewis today. Okay, he's still whiny, but he doesn't make the same bargeboard mistakes.

And just so we're clear on my personal "bias," here's something I wrote back in 2011:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/whats-eating-at-lewis-hamilton.224492/#post-5934118

Hamilton collided with Kobayashi because he wasn't checking his mirrors. He collided with Massa because he wasn't looking where he was going... then he almost did the same thing to Rosberg because he made the exact same mistake. You know where the racing line is. You know where the car in front of you is going to drive. He was well clear of Massa and then he adds a little extra steering and punches straight through Massa's rear tire. That was stupid, either way you look at it.

Oi, look, I'm putting the blame squarely on Hamilton. And why? Because he was the overtaking driver (except where he simply blundered into Kamui's path), and the onus was on him to perform the safe overtake. Not on the other guy to get the hell out of his way.

But 2011 was a terrible season for him, in general. Love life issues, dumped his dad/manager. Had trouble matching Button's race results. Can't judge Hamilton 2014 by Hamilton 2011. Just as you can't judge Raikkonen 2014 by Raikkonen back-when-he-was-still-fantastic or Raikkonen when Ferrari was trying to dump him like a hot potato.

Doesn't matter if you were a world champion once. You get judged this season by what you do this season. Finis.

 

[Legro]

How do you explain him being a world champion in 2008?

He was an idiot also back then.

 

[BHRxRacer]

@BHRxRacer: Don't drag me into a discussion for which I have no part of.

I didn't. Your tag is in an old post that I quoted. I didn't tag you in a new post. Read again. Sorry the tag system is broken and can't distinguish a new tag from an old one.

TBC I gotta go.

 

[Famine]

He was an idiot also back then.

That's still quite high on the list of dumbest things I've seen in F1

 

[Hun200kmh]

Aaaaaand now, although I tried to steer this thread away to older/retired or even dead drivers, we're back to Canada 2008! Amazing!!!!

 

[Ninners]

He was an idiot also back then.
View attachment 212052

Rosberg got in the act too.

 

[SilverArrow]

Rosberg got in the act too.

The circle is complete.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I think you meant circus!

 

[Legro]

Rosberg got in the act too.

I completely forgot that.

 

[Swagger897]

Hamilton collided with Kobayashi because he wasn't checking his mirrors. He collided with Massa because he wasn't looking where he was going... then he almost did the same thing to Rosberg because he made the exact same mistake.

So why isn't that the case with the whole issue (first sentence of quote) and it be put down, as obviously mirrors are used for something...?

Having logged over 300,000 kilometers over the past ten years in something like 200 different cars, I beg to differ.

was a joke.. a friend of mine had this actually happen. Two lorry's (in the far right lane where i drive) trapped a car in between them. She was coming up on the entrance ramp and was looking for the lorry behind her, accelerating past, but paid no attention to the car behind the other lorry, and smashed into her.

Camera's got the 2nd lorry and she was negated the ticket..

He was an idiot also back then.
View attachment 212052

Wasnt into F1 till 2010 so that went over me.. I only know a little facts before that and the outstanding issues most people know about..