2014 United Sports Car Championship

[Wilbur]

How much faster is "fast" though?

Remember, grand am is buying the alms out, so it would be assumed that grand am would keep its priorities first. Grand am cars compete with each very well. Another note: grand am teams just shelled out 250K a car to upgrade gen 2 DP to gen 3 specs in the last 2 years. I can see why owners might have beef with extra changes.

I agree with you saying "if you don't like it, run another series." Well, that's my advice to anyone unhappy about the merger. Dyson is already getting ready to change his cars. I support upgrading DP as long as the formula doesn't change.

Well I don't know how much faster but how many tracks is HP really the issue and not a better aero package? I'm sure they could take a few DP/P2 to Daytona (which I think has highest speeds for the US side of things but I could be wrong) and test them there. You can take them to wind tunnel to see how difference is to come up with some sort of aero package to make DP faster and slow P2 down some.

I get Grand-AM is taken over more than a true merger so to speak but that doesn't mean we need to lose why ALMS was what it was either. Honestly to me as new fan, ALMS seem to take pride in building something different while Grand-AM likes spec racing almost.

I understand where owners have concerns to upgrade but it's not going to cost arm and leg to find out a better front end and rear wing (I know it's more than that) but that's where they need to find where to change some things to make the gap smaller. I don't believe it's an engine thing or those need to be even touched.

Shank seems to be one with biggest issue anyway, go race Indycar instead since it seems to be more up his alley sometimes.

 

[cnd01]

P2 was about a half second off DP pole time if I'm not mistaken. It made all its time n the infield. It was going slower than a gagt car on the high banks. Roughly 175 I believe. More efficient downforce would be the logical improvement to DP. Right now, DP to p2 is like a dragster to an f1 car. Carbon brakes, stickier tires for dp, and taking traction control off p2 is absolutely necessary.

 

[Jav]

P2 was about a half second off DP pole time if I'm not mistaken. It made all its time n the infield. It was going slower than a gagt car on the high banks. Roughly 175 I believe. More efficient downforce would be the logical improvement to DP. Right now, DP to p2 is like a dragster to an f1 car. Carbon brakes, stickier tires for dp, and taking traction control off p2 is absolutely necessary.

What you are forgetting here is that the car was using a high DF bodykit for that test which held the top speed down BIG time! DPs are going to need quite a bit more than carbon brakes to keep up with a trimmed out LMP2 car arround Daytona or any other track for that matter...

 

[cnd01]

What you are forgetting here is that the car was using a high DF bodykit for that test which held the top speed down BIG time! DPs are going to need quite a bit more than carbon brakes to keep up with a trimmed out LMP2 car arround Daytona or any other track for that matter...

You are correct, but a trimmed out LMP2 car won't achieve a magically quick lap time as the lack of df in the infield will cancel out the extra speed gained. It might make the gap 2 seconds at most with no traction control on LMP2. More efficient df amd carbon brakes added to DP will make them faster than you think.

 

[Jav]

The speed in the infield didn't come from DF as much as it came from low speed mechanical grip that comes with a lightweight efficient chassis, DPs have no problem going flat trough the infield and where the LMP2 is making the time is under braking and acceleration off of the low speed hairpins.
GT1 cars used TC(<== at one point for the TC) and Carbon brakes and while a lot faster than a DP they still couldn't keep up with LMP2s.

 

[cnd01]

The speed in the infield didn't come from DF as much as it came from low speed mechanical grip that comes with a lightweight efficient chassis, DPs have no problem going flat trough the infield and where the LMP2 is making the time is under braking and acceleration off of the low speed hairpins.
GT1 cars used TC(<== at one point for the TC) and Carbon brakes and while a lot faster than a DP they still couldn't keep up with LMP2s.

Very valid points. The main reason why the DP doesn't have the extra mechanical grip is due to parts of the DP being spec. Grand am uses that to keep the field competitive and cut costs. No doubts LMP2 is quicker than DP.

My (very biased) opinion is that grand am shouldn't bend over backwards for 4 LMP2 cars when 13-15 DP a race are already there especially since grand am is buying the alms out. I understand the sentiment, but if it was 13-15 LMP2 to 4 DP then I would be questioning why LMP2 would be bending over for DP.

 

[Jav]

It isn't about anyone bending over for anyone, it's about a spec progressing to where it should have been in the first place, it's about the very real possibility of seeing american teams on DP chassis at LeMans on 2015, it's about the possibility of the DP chassis going beyond the american shores.

 

[cnd01]

It isn't about anyone bending over for anyone, it's about a spec progressing to where it should have been in the first place, it's about the very real possibility of seeing american teams on DP chassis at LeMans on 2015, it's about the possibility of the DP chassis going beyond the american shores.

I do like the possibilty of DP at le mans. 2016 will be the year we see DP in le mans imo. I don't know if a DP formula will work outside of borth America because of the different racing culture. I am very excited about the future of sports car racing.

 

[Jav]

I do like the possibilty of DP at le mans. 2016 will be the year we see DP in le mans imo. I don't know if a DP formula will work outside of borth America because of the different racing culture. I am very excited about the future of sports car racing.

Why not? Once the USCR has done a good enough job of balancing the performance the DP may very well become an ACO globally accepted platform, but this won't happen by just doing brakes and making the LMP2 cars slower. The DP is already slower than a GT-E car and minor upgrades will only make it marginally slower than the LMP-C cars, so in other words it would mess up the racing for all those classes and that will get the series nowhere very very quickly!

 

[cnd01]

Why not? Once the USCR has done a good enough job of balancing the performance the DP may very well become an ACO globally accepted platform, but this won't happen by just doing brakes and making the LMP2 cars slower. The DP is already slower than a GT-E car and minor upgrades will only make it marginally slower than the LMP-C cars, so in other words it would mess up the racing for all those classes and that will get the series nowhere very very quickly!

Actually, DP is faster than gte. At road atlanta, the pole time for alms gt was oliver gavin in his corvette who ran a 1.19.0. The DP race laps were 1.17s-low1.18s.

There is also part of me that wants DP to stay only in America. I'm also in the Wayne Taylor boat of avoiding running aco series like the plague. I don't want aco controlling the DP spec. That will make me dislike DP in a heartbeat especially if they allow full blown factory teams that build illegal cars but pay enough money to get it allowed. That changes the formula.

I think PC goes away in 2016 too or it becomes part of the ctscc.

 

[FoolKiller]

My (very biased) opinion is that grand am shouldn't bend over backwards for 4 LMP2 cars when 13-15 DP a race are already there especially since grand am is buying the alms out.

There is one very simple reason for this, and they said it in the article: They want the ALMS fans. To many LeMans prototypes are the defining characteristic and without it they will go away. And this isn't 15 years ago when you could look at those fans and say they have no other choice, so they should suck it up. Now there is an Internet, and that is where those fans will turn, illegally if necessary. But if ESPN has no broadcast rights to USCR and sees a demand for LeMans they could very well option US broadcast rights and USCR will be where Grand Am is now.

Don't forget the goal here is increased fan base and money. They will need to cater to ALMS fans early and then slowly merge the two or it will all just be a huge waste of money.

Actually, DP is faster than gte. At road atlanta, the pole time for alms gt was oliver gavin in his corvette who ran a 1.19.0. The DP race laps were 1.17s-low1.18s.

One course is not a good test, particularly one that is as high speed friendly as Road Atlanta. Put DP on a tight and windy course and you might have a totally different story. Long Beach saw GT cars performing better than prototypes in sections where the speed for prototypes to maintain grip wasn't possible. But at Road Atlanta, without split starts, ALMS prototypes will be flying past on their second lap not long after the last of the GT cars go by.

That's the first memorable experience I have of my Petit, seeing the last GT car go by and starting to relax, only to hear the prototypes coming back around.

 

[Wilbur]

Honestly the DP's should already be faster than they currently are and could been done but it didn't matter if they were blazing fast or faster than GT cars til now.

You bring up a point about 4 vs 13 but who is to say all those 13 will stick with DP class or more teams won't come aboard. We really have no idea who might jump up to different class nor do I see anything bad but trying to blend the classes to atleast hold their own in LeMan's! Isn't that one of main point of the merger to get America on the board as top LeMan's teams?!

We don't need to water down the field to where we are happy being slower than what we should be at. The way it seems based on things, DP has a better chance of running with LMP-C but we all know that won't happen because Grand-Am doesn't want to lose the top class and probably afraid of losing it to any of the LMP cars. They need to put egos aside and start looking at testing and some packages now to allow testing without some half thrown together crap for Daytona.

Each track will have places where both cars can shine, just have to balance what will be best but slower isn't the answer so much nor is adding few lighter weight things. Just like GT classes aren't always equal but look at how they run but they need to level some of that class because Porsche seems to need some help with speed.

 

[Jav]

I said ACO globally accepted platform, not ACO governed. Since the glory days of the ALMS we have led the world of sports car racing, we've lost our standing a bit over the past few years but this series has the potential to once again be on that standing. But that's not gonna happen by butchering already existing and globally accepted formulas, we need to get acceptance first in order to on e again be the global leaders in sports car racing.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

You bring up a point about 4 vs 13 but who is to say all those 13 will stick with DP class or more teams won't come aboard?

I'll bite.

[pretty much] Confirmed DP for 2014:

- Sahlen's (they just bought the DP cars for 2013...)

Speculative:

- Spirit of Daytona (see above)

- Gainsco (they've been in DP for a long time, why mess with a good thing?)

- Wayne Taylor Racing (see above, for Gainsco)

- Ganassi (could they bring out an LMP car? Would they? I personally doubt it)

LMP:

Starworks (they already have LMP cars)

 

[cnd01]

I'll bite.

[pretty much] Confirmed DP for 2014:

- Sahlen's (they just bought the DP cars for 2013...)

Speculative:

- Spirit of Daytona (see above)

- Gainsco (they've been in DP for a long time, why mess with a good thing?)

- Wayne Taylor Racing (see above, for Gainsco)

- Ganassi (could they bring out an LMP car? Would they? I personally doubt it)

LMP:

Starworks (they already have LMP cars)

At least 13 DP next year. Peter Baron said he would never run an LMP in the uscr. He doesn't even own an LMP2. Enzo potoliccio owned the car they ran last year which is now being rented by esm for the alms.
So,

2 sahlens
2 michael shank
2 Starworks
2 action express
2 8Star
1 gainsco/stallings
1(more than likely 2) wayne taylor
1 Ganassi
1 spirit of Daytona
Not to mention part season teams like bte sport and doran racing for next season. I'm not including Audi either.

I'm no expert on LMP silly seasons, so I'll let you guys speculate on that one.

 

[jjaisli]

In lieu of the amount of money that the GA teams already have invested in the current DP cars, there is one important point I think needs to be brought up, and one which seems to be overlooked or misunderstood by a few people.

The rules governing LMP2 cars changed drastically in 2011. A few key points:

- Manufacturers are NOT allowed in LMP2 (privateers only).
- A cost cap is in place and an LMP2 chassis can not exceed EUR 345'000. (approx US$ 430,000)
- Only production based engines are allowed and can not exceed EUR 75'000 per unit.

That said, the specific engine and chassis regulations, cost aside, are relatively open and there is a good degree of flexibility. So long as somebody can manufacture and sell an LMP2 chassis under the cost cap. Many do. Although it's clear that the kind of performance advances and innovation we saw in LMP2 with cars like the Porsche Boxster Spyder are over.

So what I'm getting at is, for new teams, or for teams looking to move up from LMPC or current teams, from either series who are making an evaluation of their options in the WSC, LMP2 is a legitimate alternative and one that is potentially cheaper than comparable DP equipment, with the added benefit that they can run the Le Mans 24 with that car.

 

[Mac K]

What about allowing factory support for the LMP2s? Sort of like the Penske Porsche program when that used to run, I guess they could do the same for the DPs as well. I'm just thinking out loud here..

 

[jjaisli]

What about allowing factory support for the LMP2s? Sort of like the Penske Porsche program when that used to run, I guess they could do the same for the DPs as well. I'm just thinking out loud here..

I think it would be fair to say, that it was partially(Ed) because of de facto works teams, such as Penske with his Porsche Spyders, that the ACO introduced the cost cap and the privateer only clause. The ACO wanted to reduce costs and LMP2 post 2011 was their answer.

The ACO/ALMS was hoping that it would spur renewed privateer interest in LMP2. The actual result of this action has been a mixed bag (at least in the ALMS) but the reasons for that are rather complex. Suffice to say, the rules are fixed through 2015 so I can't see it changing in the immediate future.

 

[cnd01]

In lieu of the amount of money that the GA teams already have invested in the current DP cars, there is one important point I think needs to be brought up, and one which seems to be overlooked or misunderstood by a few people.

The rules governing LMP2 cars changed drastically in 2011. A few key points:

- Manufacturers are NOT allowed in LMP2 (privateers only).
- A cost cap is in place and an LMP2 chassis can not exceed EUR 345'000. (approx US$ 430,000)
- Only production based engines are allowed and can not exceed EUR 75'000 per unit.

That said, the specific engine and chassis regulations, cost aside, are relatively open and there is a good degree of flexibility. So long as somebody can manufacture and sell an LMP2 chassis under the cost cap. Many do. Although it's clear that the kind of performance advances and innovation we saw in LMP2 with cars like the Porsche Boxster Spyder are over.

So what I'm getting at is, for new teams, or for teams looking to move up from LMPC or current teams, from either series who are making an evaluation of their options in the WSC, LMP2 is a legitimate alternative and one that is potentially cheaper than comparable DP equipment, with the added benefit that they can run the Le Mans 24 with that car.

Cost capped or not, LMP2 has a higher operating cost than DP. It's fixed cost is about even and in some cases lower than DP, but it takes much more equipment, crew members, and expensive technology to operate a LMP2 team.

@Mac K: Most DP teams do receive plenty of factory support from Ford, Chevrolet, BMW, Riley Technologies, Pratt and Miller (Coyote), and Dallara. It's not millions of dollars by any stretch though like a complete factory run team would.

 

[jjaisli]

Cost capped or not, LMP2 has a higher operating cost than DP. It's fixed cost is about even and in some cases lower than DP, but it takes much more equipment, crew members, and expensive technology to operate a LMP2 team.

Does it? Why? I don't have any hard numbers in front of me but I really don't think this is correct. Certainly not since the 2011 rules came into play. LMP2 cars that are limited to one evolution per season. They have production based engines. If you would have said that kickbacks and subsidies from the engine suppliers or series, lower the cost of running a DP team over-all, you may have had a point. But exactly what 'expensive technology' is required to run an LMP2 car as compared to a DP? And why would you necessary need more crew members?

 

[cnd01]

Does it? Why? I don't have any hard numbers in front of me but I really don't think this is correct. Certainly not since the 2011 rules came into play. LMP2 cars that are limited to one evolution per season. They have production based engines. If you would have said that kickbacks and subsidies from the engine suppliers or series, lower the cost of running a DP team over-all, you may have had a point. But exactly what 'expensive technology' is required to run an LMP2 car as compared to a DP? And why would you necessary need more crew members?

I mentioned the manufacturer support in reference to mac k. It's a couple of posts back. Peter Baron has said that it takes 10 guys for his 2 car DP team opposed to 12 guys for his 1 car LMP2 team. Both are definitely more affordable than LMP1 though.

 

[hawkeye122]

Here's a thought- have LMP2 cars run DP spec engines, and slow them down to PC level also. PC cars are essentially underpowered P2's. I think that may keep everyone mostly happy

With regards to aero on the DP... I can see that getting a bit expensive given what shape it already is. Maybe some type of ground effect should be used?

Also, Starworks no longer has P2 cars. It was sold to ESM.

 

[Mac K]

@Mac K: Most DP teams do receive plenty of factory support from Ford, Chevrolet, BMW, Riley Technologies, Pratt and Miller (Coyote), and Dallara. It's not millions of dollars by any stretch though like a complete factory run team would.

I don't just mean financial support, I'm talking about in house development, engineers from the actual companies, etc. So, for example Level 5 and ESM receiving financial support from Honda/HPD, obviously their sponsors, and the gentlemen driver (Tucker and Brown) as required by the LMP2 rules. This would be the same for DP's as well, but support from the actual factories such as GM or Ford not just from Riley or Dallara, think the current ALMS Viper program, Riley runs the team but a lot of his funding comes in from Chrysler/Dodge. Seeing as LMP1 will no longer exist in North America in 2014 and they plan on making the LMP2/DP class the top tier class in the merger, why not go all out, bend the rules a bit (I'm just saying..) and get both financial and development backing from whoever. Personally I'd love to see Porsche back in LMP2 and DP, a GM engine in an LMP2, and HPD in a DP, etc. The possibilities are intriguing..

 

[cnd01]

I don't just mean financial support, I'm talking about in house development, engineers from the actual companies, etc. So, for example Level 5 and ESM receiving financial support from Honda/HPD, obviously their sponsors, and the gentlemen driver (Tucker and Brown) as required by the LMP2 rules. This would be the same for DP's as well, but support from the actual factories such as GM or Ford not just from Riley or Dallara, think the current ALMS Viper program, Riley runs the team but a lot of his funding comes in from Chrysler/Dodge. Seeing as LMP1 will no longer exist in North America in 2014 and they plan on making the LMP2/DP class the top tier class in the merger, why not go all out, bend the rules a bit (I'm just saying..) and get both financial and development backing from whoever. Personally I'd love to see Porsche back in LMP2 and DP, a GM engine in an LMP2, and HPD in a DP, etc. The possibilities are intriguing..

Possibilities are endless. Actually, the engine companies do give support to each team. Earnhardt-Childress engines (Chevrolet) sends people for support to all the Chevrolet teams. Same goes with Roush-Yates (Ford) and Dinan (BMW). It's a great system as everyone gets the same support which helps even the field out.

The only thing wrong with those endless possibilities is if rule bending is allowed. Allowing rule bending is why the rule books are tossed out and re-written every 10 years or so in sports car racing. I honestly don't think the manufacturers would all jump in. Maybe 2 or 3 would at most. The other teams without all that extra funding would then have zero chance of winning which would drive the majority out the door as not many people like showing up to a race knowing the best result possible barring some miracle is 5th.

 

[RACECAR]

I mentioned the manufacturer support in reference to mac k. It's a couple of posts back. Peter Baron has said that it takes 10 guys for his 2 car DP team opposed to 12 guys for his 1 car LMP2 team. Both are definitely more affordable than LMP1 though.

So one type of car takes two more crew members then the other, hardly seems like a huge difference. If it took for instance 10 more members, then I'd understand, but a 2 crew member difference hardly seems like a huge enough deal.

 

[cnd01]

So one type of car takes two more crew members then the other, hardly seems like a huge difference. If it took for instance 10 more members, then I'd understand, but a 2 crew member difference hardly seems like a huge enough deal.

That's 10 people combined for 2 DP.

It takes 12 people to work a single LMP2 car.

 

[polarbear345]

That's 10 people combined for 2 DP.

It takes 12 people to work a single LMP2 car.

Didn't he win the LMP2 WEC championship?

 

[jjaisli]

That's 10 people combined for 2 DP.

It takes 12 people to work a single LMP2 car.

But doing what? You can employ a hundred people at a well funded team to do everything from stir somebody's coffee to clean the driver's helmet. That doesn't mean that they NEED 12 mechanics to prep a car for the race. And considering only 5 crew members (excluding the driver but including the guy holding the fire equipment) are allowed over the pit wall at any one time, I think it's more a question of wants and possibilities than needs. If a team can afford to hire more crew members and they feel it gives them an advantage, they'll do it.

But it's not factually accurate to say, in general terms, you "need" a dozen mechanics to work an LMP2 car.

 

[cnd01]

But doing what? You can employ a hundred people at a well funded team to do everything from stir somebody's coffee to clean the driver's helmet. That doesn't mean that they NEED 12 mechanics to prep a car for the race. And considering only 5 crew members (excluding the driver but including the guy holding the fire equipment) are allowed over the pit wall at any one time, I think it's more a question of wants and possibilities than needs. If a team can afford to hire more crew members and they feel it gives them an advantage, they'll do it.

But it's not factually accurate to say, in general terms, you "need" a dozen mechanics to work an LMP2 car.

You're very much right. Yourself and I could buy, put together, drive, and service a car all by ourselves

That did happen at the CTSCC race at Daytona basically. A team drove their Jetta to the track in a standard flatbed trailer with no spares and basically no tools.

I do want to see some DP/P2 hard racing. We won't know who has what until next year at Daytona to be brutally honest.

 

[jjaisli]

Point taken.

I fully expect to see an overwhelming majority of DP vs LMP2 cars, at least in 2014. It makes sense. There are a lot of established GA teams who already have the equipment. And I think with the pending merger, there was a lot of uncertainty in the ALMS this year in the Prototype class. Mazda delaying it's proposed LMP2 skyactive engine didn't help matters. But I suspect things could and likely will change the following year. The fact that the two series are merging into one, in and of itself, creates an interesting dynamic. There will be less competition to sign sponsors, potentially more TV and ad revenue and more opportunities for former or existing motorsports teams in other series to join in. I think you'll see the healthier, better funded teams (from both series) will flourish and the weaker teams will quickly fade into obscurity.