2014 United Sports Car Championship
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freshseth83
(Banned)
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- freshseth83
Youre joking right? GA subsidizes most the DP teams. Now they'll all of a sudden have to come up with money for upgrades for their cars? And you are way off the mark in terms of attendance and fan base. On top of it, they seem to be pushing their DP agenda, so P2 would last 2 seasons before reg rewrites begin. No, doesn't sound like a 'merger' when they eliminate the fastest class with potential to attract the 2 biggest names in LeMans history.How do you know the alms is more popular than grand am? Have you ever been to a grand am race? Have you ever seen any television numbers or seen any attendance records? It's not like grand am isn't giving up anything. Alms gt isn't going to be touched at all. Grand am gt teams are going to completely change their car specs and equipment. DP teams will have to buy tens of thousands of upgrades for their cars. P2 teams aren't having to spend near the amount of money getting their cars within the rules. Sounds a LOT like a merger to me
Really? So Porsche's rumored return to ALMS which had the potential of bringing Audi back, in addition to the 3 teams in lmp1, plus the renewed interest in lmp2 would be a 'GT only' series? I'd much rather see 2 Porsches 2 Audis 1 or 2 Rebellions an HPD and Dyson than 10 DP's. I think a majority would agree.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
freshseth83
Keep on thinking "out of the box" You have ZERO numbers on fan base. Where are the articles on grand am subsidizing teams too? What "renewed" interest in LMP2? How many new LMP2 chassis have been bought in America? Once again, have you even gone to a grand am race? Your basing everything off of speculation. We all know how true speculation is.
The WEC is why LMP is dead in the alms. That, and all but about 4 P1/P2 teams are overseas. Audi is "rumored" to build a DP too, so that's just enough evidence to me that they want to race regardless what class is the fastest class. If Porsche wants to, they can build cars to our rules rather than the USCR keeping a dead class with the possibility (not a sure thing) that maybe Audi and Porsche show up for 1 or 2 races. Welcome to the future
- 2,186
- W-S, NC
- WillyTwoScoops
Someone please explain why there is such a hatred for DP? Granted I've never been to ALMS race nor seen P2 in person but overall I really enjoyed my first Grand-AM race at Daytona.
I do think it's a tad silly to try to keep WEC alive as far as within the whole merger. Keep it to North America as the travel back and forth for teams for events (yes I know they don't ship cars over both ways) is expensive and doesn't truly seem to be worth the effort. If a team wants to run events on both sides of the ocean, then that's one thing too.
I do think it's a tad silly to try to keep WEC alive as far as within the whole merger. Keep it to North America as the travel back and forth for teams for events (yes I know they don't ship cars over both ways) is expensive and doesn't truly seem to be worth the effort. If a team wants to run events on both sides of the ocean, then that's one thing too.
- 24,619
- Anoka, MN
We've been over this before, you cannot successfully run a business on things that may happen. Sure Audi and Porsche may have well been planning on coming back, but you aren't going to get any investors or sponsors on board until they commit, which they have not.
As I've also mentioned, I'm sure they contacted Audi, Porsche and Toyota to see if they wanted to a part of the new series in LMP1. They are big money manufacturers and if they wanted to run in USCR they would be stupid to block them.
I wouldn't call 1 team that was afraid of Risi and a team that couldn't afford another WEC run a renewed interest.
So where are the sponsors? Certainly they would be flocking to Dyson, Rebellion and Muscle Milk if there was so much interest. Oh wait, they are all in the GTE class as that's what people watch ALMS for.
It's associated with NASCAR so it's instantly bad.
Granted I do think they need to make them faster and open the door for teams to innovate, but it's good racing.
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
Keep on thinking "out of the box" You have ZERO numbers on fan base. Where are the articles on grand am subsidizing teams too? What "renewed" interest in LMP2? How many new LMP2 chassis have been bought in America? Once again, have you even gone to a grand am race? Your basing everything off of speculation. We all know how true speculation is.
Welcome to the future
There is no future. Your series is a joke like most its participants. They get laughed at for their mediocrity, not by foreigners but even by their own participants. Stephane Sarrazin blasted them for canceling qualifying because of rain
You must have missed the Marshall Pruet article as well. Oh yeah, you want numbers! Too bad GA doesnt release numbers, even for the Daytona 24! Wonder why that is? You really need to look around and see the world. GA isn't popular at all compared to other forms of racing in the U.S. Even though its pumped up by the biggest racing series in America, Nascar. They struggle to find viewers and attendees, even on the back of a Nascar race. You talk bad of speculation but applaud cars being paid to race? Porsche has a history in ALMS, as does Audi. So that speculation is actual possibility. Your GA has teams who complain about making a minor update to their car to run faster. They have guys who call lmp cars 'fag cars' and are family of the owners of the series. More laughable crap to pile on. Audi wouldn't need a DP if not for GA's desire to keep their pet DP as the top class. You keep saying lmp is a dead class but yet thats where the manufacturers want to be. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Audi, Porsche, DOME and Rebellion will be in that "dead class". Whos in DP? Riley? A fake Corvette? Youre delusional to think that class is dead. America is lost to those brands in lmp1 because of the financial crisis and the lack of ROI over here. USCR isn't inviting to those makes in DP. Only GTE is because of the level of competition and, wait for it, manufacturer involvement.
I don't have a problem with DP cars. I have a problem with staleness. I have a problem with mediocrity. I have a problem with selfish 'team owners' who only look for a hand out. Thats the current GA. If you can't see that, you aren't looking.
- 24,619
- Anoka, MN
Factory teams on 2013 ALMS LMP1 grid apart from Sebring:
Toyota: 0
Honda: 0
Nissan: 0
Audi: 0
Porsche: 0
Dome: 0
Rebellion: 1
We are talking about ALMS, not WEC.
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
Save it. Please. They have no interest in those lmp teams showing up their "premiere DP class". They didn't ask if they wanted to run lmp1 cars in USCR. They put out their own vision and wanted their DP to run up front. This is common knowledge. Even the "e-mail" cnd posted highlighted this. The reason? GA is reliant on their current DP teams and vice versa. The attitude is not welcoming lmp1. Its keeping who they have. Nothing wrong with that, but if you believe they dropped lmp1 because of lack of interest, why then did they decide to keep the less populated lmp2 class? Because they could sell it to their teams easier by speeding up DP and slowing lmp2. They're even having trouble selling this idea!
This just proves you don't pay attention to the news. Thats why your comments are useless to reply to. http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/alms-level-5-commits-to-full-season-entries/
What? Rebellion has Shell, Lotus and Rebellion as their main sponsors. Pickett is owned by Muscle Milk. That company is huge. I can't even take you serious when you ask silly questions like this. Picket have ran a Porsche RS Spyder, an Aston Martin DBR1 and two different Hpd cars (said to be the most expensive customer car).
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
"We?" No. You. I am speaking of lmp1. Not which cars run in the series. Why run in alms in its last year of competition?
That makes no sense. ALMS died out for reasons I already stated. This is Nascar country. Even F1 lacked a race here for years. I'm done talking on this subject. Its apparent to me there are those who wont admit the actions of GA are to benefit themselves and not an "openness" like being portrayed.
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Just because I hate seeing claims about statistics made without statistics I did some quick Googling. These numbers aren't the easiest to find unless they are newsworthy, but here is what I got.
2011 Petit LeMans - 131,000+ attendance, 900,000 viewership.
http://www.racer.com/alms-claims-record-crowd-for-petit-le-mans/article/213892/
2009 Rolex 24-Hours at Daytona - one million households or 1.2 million viewers.
http://www.grand-am.com/tabid/141/a...-s-SPEED-Viewership-Increases-47-Percent.aspx
Households should most likely be looked at to keep comparisons fair, because Petit LeMans was Internet only.
I think if you factor in the larger race time at Daytona and the more accessible format it is essentially even.
That said, I have a suggestion for everyone: quit arguing about better or worse because of your personal preference. I could go on all day about why my favorite to watch is LMP1 and what I love about ALMS as a frequent attendee of the Petit LeMans, but that only makes them better to me. It is subjective, just as sports car vs stock car is. Don't claim stats without backing them up. If you say a certain number backs up your point then you need to show that number.
To weigh in on the DP vs P2 debate; If LMP gets phased out, then so will my interest. If Petit survives after that, with international P1 interest, then I will still attend that. But it was LMP that drew me to ALMS and that is where my heart has been all along.
2011 Petit LeMans - 131,000+ attendance, 900,000 viewership.
http://www.racer.com/alms-claims-record-crowd-for-petit-le-mans/article/213892/
2009 Rolex 24-Hours at Daytona - one million households or 1.2 million viewers.
http://www.grand-am.com/tabid/141/a...-s-SPEED-Viewership-Increases-47-Percent.aspx
Households should most likely be looked at to keep comparisons fair, because Petit LeMans was Internet only.
I think if you factor in the larger race time at Daytona and the more accessible format it is essentially even.
That said, I have a suggestion for everyone: quit arguing about better or worse because of your personal preference. I could go on all day about why my favorite to watch is LMP1 and what I love about ALMS as a frequent attendee of the Petit LeMans, but that only makes them better to me. It is subjective, just as sports car vs stock car is. Don't claim stats without backing them up. If you say a certain number backs up your point then you need to show that number.
To weigh in on the DP vs P2 debate; If LMP gets phased out, then so will my interest. If Petit survives after that, with international P1 interest, then I will still attend that. But it was LMP that drew me to ALMS and that is where my heart has been all along.
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- 24,619
- Anoka, MN
So your just not going to actually reply and just keep spewing your typical crap?
Shell and Lotus were with Rebellion prior to ALMS so they probably just came along with them, it's not like they pounced after they announced their ALMS team. You also completely missed the point on Muscle Milk, if there was such an overwhelming majority of love for LMP1 they would have enough sponsorship for a non-self funded car.
What does that have to do with anything I said? I never said Pickett wasn't loaded.
I'm siding with FK now, this arguing is stupid and really accomplishes nothing. Reply if you like but I'm just going to ignore you like I do with every other troll here.
- 2,186
- W-S, NC
- WillyTwoScoops
It's associated with NASCAR so it's instantly bad.
Granted I do think they need to make them faster and open the door for teams to innovate, but it's good racing.
Well heaven forbid NASCAR actually is looked at doing something right, we can sit here and complain about all the redneck, turn left but they have loyal fans even with all the issues, car changes and all that. NASCAR is by far the hardest Motorsport to be catered to fans in general compared to GA if you ask me.
I've been in the pits once for Cup race but only way you get that is knowing someone on a team for most part. Now with GA, $35 bucks at Daytona and I got to be right there with no questions asked. They need to use things like that as an advantage over other series and the laid back causal atmosphere they provide vs cramped seating that oval has.
We can go back and forth of why we like what and all that jazz. The thing is even as cool, interesting as LMP1 is, it isn't cost effective for most to run it at all and WEC to me seems like some joke of series for super powers who can afford to ship cars/staff or whatever to a race. It really serves no real purpose to me and takes away from why series are weak. If the US wants to make a bigger push for their series, then start having some triple crown for teams who score points or wins these events.
I'm a little worried that the field will be held back because of DP, even if I have a love for them. They are the slower fatter cousin but nothing says we can add something to get them stronger while still being basically a fairly spec chassis. Hell right now we have the 01/02 who are usually always the class of the field and we see how much of a joke that is too.
Sorry for the rambling, I am fairly new to all this in general. There is no reason why GA should be section fiddle to NASCAR like it was at Indy, I'd rather it been run during Indy 500 week as they tend to be closer and cross over fans.
- 275
- Side 3
- BigNFL
Can there be a single page without a DP vs LMP or ALMS vs Grand Am argument in this thread?
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
freshseth83There is no future. Your series is a joke like most its participants. They get laughed at for their mediocrity, not by foreigners but even by their own participants. Stephane Sarrazin blasted them for canceling qualifying because of rain
Oh yeah, you want numbers! Too bad GA doesnt release numbers, even for the Daytona 24! Wonder why that is? You really need to look around and see the world. GA isn't popular at all compared to other forms of racing in the U.S. Even though its pumped up by the biggest racing series in America, Nascar. They struggle to find viewers and attendees, even on the back of a Nascar race. You talk bad of speculation but applaud cars being paid to race? Porsche has a history in ALMS, as does Audi. So that speculation is actual possibility. Your GA has teams who complain about making a minor update to their car to run faster. They have guys who call lmp cars 'fag cars' and are family of the owners of the series. More laughable crap to pile on. Audi wouldn't need a DP if not for GA's desire to keep their pet DP as the top class. You keep saying lmp is a dead class but yet thats where the manufacturers want to be. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Audi, Porsche, DOME and Rebellion will be in that "dead class". Whos in DP? Riley? A fake Corvette? Youre delusional to think that class is dead. America is lost to those brands in lmp1 because of the financial crisis and the lack of ROI over here. USCR isn't inviting to those makes in DP. Only GTE is because of the level of competition and, wait for it, manufacturer involvement.
I don't have a problem with DP cars. I have a problem with staleness. I have a problem with mediocrity. I have a problem with selfish 'team owners' who only look for a hand out. Thats the current GA. If you can't see that, you aren't looking.
You still haven't told me if you've been to a race yet. You still haven't shown me articles saying grand am pays teams. I could care less if DP doesn't get invited to le mans. That would cause a problem with scheduling for the USCR. You still haven't told me how many new LMP2 chassis have been purchased this year in America.
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
Some guys here need an icebath.
LMP2 is a flourishing class. Proof? 22 teams in the Le Mans 24 Hours. Grand Am will be more popular stateside owing to the NASCAR connection. ALMS never had good grids ever but had good racing. All the flaming and baiting here is utterly stupid.
LMP died because of cost and little / no interest. Have any of you actually considered the flagship races in the markets? Daytona 24 Hours - was a GA race. Also DP was poor until the last few years in attendance. LMP in europe has Le Mans, Spa, Monza, Silverstone. ALMS had Petit Le Mans and Sebring. Of them Sebring was the only one with real international appeal and its expensive to get a team together for a one off race.
LMP2 is a flourishing class. Proof? 22 teams in the Le Mans 24 Hours. Grand Am will be more popular stateside owing to the NASCAR connection. ALMS never had good grids ever but had good racing. All the flaming and baiting here is utterly stupid.
LMP died because of cost and little / no interest. Have any of you actually considered the flagship races in the markets? Daytona 24 Hours - was a GA race. Also DP was poor until the last few years in attendance. LMP in europe has Le Mans, Spa, Monza, Silverstone. ALMS had Petit Le Mans and Sebring. Of them Sebring was the only one with real international appeal and its expensive to get a team together for a one off race.
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Petit had international appeal, at least for teams, with an invite to LeMans on the line.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
Wilbur
I agree that DP should be sped up. Grand am has the NAEC which is the Rolex 24, Sahlens 6 at the Glen, and the Indy race which is a championship itself in addition to the regular points championship. That will carry over to next year with the additions of Sebring and petit le mans.
I saw this on 8 star's Twitter recently https://mobile.twitter.com/8starmotor/status/329658586521280513/photo/1
01GTP
Premium
- 3,345
- East Canaan, CT
- GTP_01GTP
Unfortunately the ALMS invite to Le Mans has changed since the creation of the WEC.
WEC teams have an auto invite the the 24.
It may be more political now, with IMSA inviting 3 “At Large” teams.
A good article on the subject for those not sure about the ALMS 2013 invites.
- 283
- Chesapeake, VA
No. But I believe the reason is Grand Am and ALMS are working more on regulations than a PR campaign to bring the polarized fan bases together. I can't wait til Daytona when everyone hopefully shuts up.
- 7,594
- Ontario,Canada
- macospet1
- My What?
ALMS has more fans attending races for sure, I've been to numerous Grand-Am and ALMS races, both have a decent amount of people but no where near what they should. I'm a big fan of both series. I just wish the blind fanboyism would stop, and Seth's posts are so condescending I can't agree or disagree with any of his points... way to much snobbery and arguing going on in here, it's one thing to disagree with someone but spewing out crap and insulting people who disagree with you isn't cool.
- 8,016
- GTP_Royalton
To be honest, if USCR was just the Daytona Prototypes and the GT Le Mans and GT Daytona cars I'd be happy. I just looked over the ALMS Long Beach race results. Just 3 LMP2 cars? And people are going to be upset if they're gone next year? And only 3 P1 cars.
In 2016 there will be new rules for the top class anyway. Im sure LMP2 will be phased out then (if its still around). I believe the 2016 rules will allow for faster and more appealing cars, both visual and technological, in the top class.
What matters is 2016. LMP2 or DP, dont really care right now to be honest. GT Le Mans and GT Daytona will put on a good show.
In 2016 there will be new rules for the top class anyway. Im sure LMP2 will be phased out then (if its still around). I believe the 2016 rules will allow for faster and more appealing cars, both visual and technological, in the top class.
What matters is 2016. LMP2 or DP, dont really care right now to be honest. GT Le Mans and GT Daytona will put on a good show.
- 3,321
- United States
- GTP_Sam48
I'd agree on the basis of GT racing and eliminating GX while maintaining GT-LM and GT-D, but I believe we can't let the prototype category become DP only (Even until 2016 when the rules change).
What USCR needs to do is allow much more manufacturer presence in prototypes by opening the door to new technology via setting down less regulations (Similar to how WEC LMP1 regulations work). You're never going to balance LMP2 and DP, so personally, I believe they should be separate classes until 2016, but in the mean time, the USCR, if they're not already doing, should be formulating a single set of prototype regulations that will allow much in the way of manufacturer presence and experimentation. I don't want to see the officials dolling out extra HP to the manufacture that wines the most about how much slower they are then their competition in some spec style prototype racing like we had at the Daytona 24 Hour earlier this year.
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
We've been upset since the financial crisis made them start falling off. We are taking what we have because it is our only link to international style racing in the states. The attachment has to do with what the prototypes are. When I last went to the Petit they let fans on the track pre-race to meet the drivers and see the cars. It's when I met Lucas Ordonez. They had to start a few minutes late because everyone was crowded around the Audis and ignoring the announcer asking everyone to clear the track. Those cars show up twice a year and still are the most popular. They are the race cars for the engineer and technology minded fans. That is why there are ALMS fans already not happy with USCR for dropping LMP1 and why dropping LMP2 would possibly run another large chunk off. LMP has represented technology and engineering prowess, and if DP teams really are complaining about making their cars faster and more technical those are not people that LMP fans can cheer for or will want to financially support.
- 3,915
- California
- gdwest1
I'm ok with LMP2 getting phased out in 2016, as long as they get the DP's to be more visually appealing.
- 9,055
- Murica
- BasedAckbar
When they say provide bodywork, do they mean that each manufacturer will spend time in the wind tunnel and CAD instead of just applying visual aesthetics?
- 1,326
- SC
I am all for combining DP and LMP classes if the formula is right and it allows for ingenuity and development of new technology that translates over to street cars. The thing I don't understand is why the GT classes need to be so divided? Why we can't make the GT class names univeral. GT1,GT2 GT3. THis can't be that hard to tweak. ALMS GT pro/AM should just be called GT2, and Grand-AM GT is basically GT3 category. There should never have been a GT2 amateur class in my opinion. Amateurs should stay in the lower level GT3. With the demise of P1 and the influx of new revenue into the combines series might lead to the return of a proper GT1 class.
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