2014 United Sports Car Championship

[cnd01]

What's not being said is that it wouldn't cost 5K to put a restrictor on the pc and gtlm class motors to make the DP work. Taking the pointless tc off of the alms classes paints another picture entirely.

 

[freshseth83]

You don't seem to understand. The 'pointless tc' is a part of the rules of these cars and they belong to a bigger class structure than GA. This is their LINK to LeMans, you don't just change the whole ruleset of GTE because DP's are only marginally faster.

 

[cnd01]

You don't seem to understand. The 'pointless tc' is a part of the rules of these cars and they belong to a bigger class structure than GA. This is their LINK to LeMans, you don't just change the whole ruleset of GTE because DP's are only marginally faster.

What you don't get is that it takes literally a different sd card in the car's ecu to put traction control on the car I could care less to a Le Mans link too. Gtlm is the class that's being protected like a crown jewel to keep that link.

 

[Mac K]

Here we go again..

 

[polarbear345]

Here we go again..

Oh, don't pretend you don't enjoy it! XD

 

[Mr.Skyline09]

Looks like my previous question has been answered

 

[hawkeye122]

What you don't get is that it takes literally a different sd card in the car's ecu to put traction control on the car I could care less to a Le Mans link too. Gtlm is the class that's being protected like a crown jewel to keep that link.

So yeah, maybe look outside your own country for once? There's an entire other planet full of racing, including the most important Endurance race for the past 80 years..

If traction control is pointless, why do the teams run it?

 

[cnd01]

So yeah, maybe look outside your own country for once? There's an entire other planet full of racing, including the most important Endurance race for the past 80 years..

If traction control is pointless, why do the teams run it?

Bc it's legal. Tc imo takes away from the race. It becomes less of a drivers race as a computer does all the finesse. We see how much European teams love to travel overseas and race Sebring every year, so we should conform to a sanctioning body that cannot keep a rule set for more than a few years. Grand am has had the same basic spec for 10 years except for about 100-200 pounds of ballast. In fact, the championship winning DP chassis last year was constructed in 2004. How many cars from the 2004 Le Mans 24 prototype class chassis are still racing in that series today? Point being: Grand am has actually created a formula that has produced damn good racing as well as longevity in the teams' investments in the cars. The only trade off is a slightly slower lap time, but how big of a difference does that make? At the Rolex 24 this year, the cars were about a second and a half faster than last year, and I had no clue they were until I heard the lap times. Unless we all hold stopwatches in the stands (all the power to you if you do ) it doesn't make a noticeable difference unless the cars are roughly 3 seconds fasrer than each other which is roughly the difference of the qualifying field at the Rolex 24.

 

[Snaeper]

So yeah, maybe look outside your own country for once? There's an entire other planet full of racing, including the most important Endurance race for the past 80 years..

If traction control is pointless, why do the teams run it?

I think the point he's trying to make is that the LMP2 cars can easily run without Traction Control while racing in the USCR, then re-activate it when they go to Le Mans.

The LMP2 technical regulations don't have to be the same as they are at Le Mans... just because that's the way Le Mans runs them. IMSA currently implements it's own BoP on ALMS cars, for example. This results in changes like the ALMS Corvette's losing 25kg for Le Mans on their way from the ALMS.

In my opinion, I think the P2 teams should be the ones that are a bit more flexible, as long as the demands being made of them are reasonable. The DP's should be open to making a few changes, too, of course, but they're the larger of the classes and generally have more sponsorship behind the programs. The sponsorships and team structure for the DP's are set around them being the top class. Target and Telmex most likely expect to be winning races and championships outright.

 

[Wilbur]

Why do folks who have anything to do with nascar (DP) seem to always have issues with moving forward? I get it cost money but it's not like they aren't running at the top levels and money wasn't being spent. It would be alot different if they had something like GT3 cup where someone with 2000 car had to buy brand new car totally to run which this isn't nearly like that.

I'm on the fence at how this will work but I have feeling DP owners will always complain.

 

[hawkeye122]

Bc it's legal. Tc imo takes away from the race. It becomes less of a drivers race as a computer does all the finesse.

You do realize that the Traction Control is basically a huge table of check-sums that the engineers have to program each race. It's not On and Off. IF they put a ton of work into it, it works well. If they dont really care to gather data on it, it doesnt work as well. It's just another part of setting up the car. The driver gives input to the team, and they make numerous adjustments per weekend.
Should we ban adjustable suspension while we're at it? Or brake balance?

That said, taking the traction control off isn't a big deal, I'll agree with that in principle.

We see how much European teams love to travel overseas and race Sebring every year, so we should conform to a sanctioning body that cannot keep a rule set for more than a few years. Grand am has had the same basic spec for 10 years except for about 100-200 pounds of ballast. In fact, the championship winning DP chassis last year was constructed in 2004. How many cars from the 2004 Le Mans 24 prototype class chassis are still racing in that series today?

Well, considering that the Lola chassis itself hasnt really changed in ages (Basically body kit updates), and the fact that the Oreca 03, 01, FLM 09, and HPD ARX chassis are essentially Courage LC70's underneath, which have been around in one shape or another since 2004 at the latest(Probably earlier, but still). In LMP2 especially, the category hasnt had a drastic re-work in ages. The chassis have remained remarkably similar. Only real changes have been tyres (Which Grand Am has done) as well as engines (Which Grand Am has also done).

Point being: Grand am has actually created a formula that has produced damn good racing as well as longevity in the teams' investments in the cars.

Have you seen any of the recent WEC, ELMS or even ALMS races? The LMP2 field is EXTREMELY competitive. Great drivers, great teams, all racing in the same class with minimal BOP. The ALMS P2 category is a bit of a joke at the moment, seeing that one team is VERY new to the class, and hasnt worked the kinks out, while the other has been doing it for ages and has Indy drivers fill seats. Look back at 2012, Conquest and Level 5 stood toe to toe for much of the season.

And don't even get me started on GT. Longevity? Lets talka bout how BMW ran the same M3 since 2009. Same with the Ferrari's, as well as the Corvette's.

Essentially you are saying that because DP provides such great racing (And you're right, it does), they shouldn't have to change their formula. By the same token, GT shouldn't have to change their cars either. I can understand the fact that LMP2 should slow the cars down, thats a given. But how "fair" is it that the DP teams want everyone else to slow down so that they don't have to spend any money?

I'm perfectly content with everyone saying "You don't want to spend the money? Fine. But dont complain to us when the GT class beats you".

I dont hate DP. I hate the pompous attitude held by their teams. An attitude which basically says to everyone else "Screw you guys, we're more important." I don't see what makes them so special that they shouldnt be required to change their class, but everyone else should.

If the GT teams shared your lack of regard for the most important endurance race of the season, 90% of them would pack up and leave, since they don't get much media exposure in domestic endurance racing anyway.

I'll agree that the LMP2 car needs to have changes made. Smaller rear wing? Fewer dive planes? Maybe throw on some ballast. Plus tyres and such.
But really, the DP teams have to play ball too. It's not a one-way street.

 

[cnd01]

DP teams have to change too. The only DP owner that's mad about changing is Michael Shank. Troy Flis (spirit of Daytona), Peter Baron (Starworks), and Enzo Potoliccio (8Star) have supported making the DP faster. I'm fine with it too as long as it doesn't break the bank. It's the elitist, condescending attitude I get from some of the alms and wec fans mainly on other boards, but I've gotten it a little on here.

Like I said before: whatever they decide to do needs to be done NOW!!!

 

[aarror]

This merger really isn't looking good, they need to get it together or this is going to be an embarrassment, if it even happens at all. IMO they should push back the merger for a year and use next year for extensive testing in order to get this thing right.

In regard to upgrades to certain cars, speed up the DPs, slow down the LMPs,, and keep the GT cars the same. (If it ain't broke don't fix).

In short, I really hope they get it done, but I'm losing faith quickly.

 

[Wilbur]

DP teams have to change too. The only DP owner that's mad about changing is Michael Shank. Troy Flis (spirit of Daytona), Peter Baron (Starworks), and Enzo Potoliccio (8Star) have supported making the DP faster. I'm fine with it too as long as it doesn't break the bank. It's the elitist, condescending attitude I get from some of the alms and wec fans mainly on other boards, but I've gotten it a little on here.

Like I said before: whatever they decide to do needs to be done NOW!!!

I like MSR but I think overall he needs to just grow a set and stop being a crybaby about stuff.

 

[cnd01]

I like MSR but I think overall he needs to just grow a set and stop being a crybaby about stuff.

Yea. He needs to realize that he's going to have to spend a little money like everyone else (except gtlm because they're "a tie to Le mans")

Btw: http://www.planetlemans.com/2013/05/25/wolf-racing-cars-to-build-daytona-prototype-for-2014/

 

[R0ssingt0n]

Forgive me for not really following whats going on with this merger but surely the best way would be to meet in the middle. Speed the DP's up and bit, and slow down the LMP's too.

 

[RACECAR]

Yea. He needs to realize that he's going to have to spend a little money like everyone else (except gtlm because they're "a tie to Le mans")

And here's the ironic part: Doesn't everyone have to spend money just to stay competitive with Ganassi anyhow?

Btw: http://www.planetlemans.com/2013/05/25/wolf-racing-cars-to-build-daytona-prototype-for-2014/

Cool, a new Daytona Prototype constructor. I think that's now the ninth Daytona Prototype constructor for the series?

 

[hawkeye122]

And here's the ironic part: Doesn't everyone have to spend money just to stay competitive with Ganassi anyhow?

Cool, a new Daytona Prototype constructor. I think that's now the ninth Daytona Prototype constructor for the series?

Seems silly considering that the cars are pretty much spec.. Talk about an unsustainable, over saturated market.

 

[cnd01]

Seems silly considering that the cars are pretty much spec.. Talk about an unsustainable, over saturated market.

To me, that shows the direction that American sports car racing is going. DPs are popping up like children after winning the lottery Wayne Taylor, 8Star, and now spirit of Daytona has a second car race ready. SoD has a video to prove it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFMoZN1dbtI

I've posted a pic of the velocity worldwide #11 wtr car, and Enzo Potoliccio has pics of his second DP on Twitter.

Doesn't sound oversaturated to me.

My speculation is that Ganassi will be running the wolf after Daytona.

 

[RACECAR]

To me, that shows the direction that American sports car racing is going. DPs are popping up like children after winning the lottery Wayne Taylor, 8Star, and now spirit of Daytona has a second car race ready.

SoD has a video to prove it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFMoZN1dbtI

Got abit annoying trying to play the video from that page and either getting a long loading time or "This page cannot be displayed" so I prefer this:




Cool, though I can't quite make out the number on the second car.

My speculation is that Ganassi will be running the wolf after Daytona.

What makes you think so? Seems abit early to speculate on an so far not complete car.

 

[cnd01]

Well, Ivan bellarosa has said that it is being built for Bmw, but will fit any engine. Ivan has also said that wolf factory will be the team racing the car at the Rolex 24 next year, but another team will take over. I'm going off of the current Bmw teams. I don't think sahlens will jump ship right after buying 2 Riley chassis for this year. That leaves Ganassi.

 

[aarror]

Yea. He needs to realize that he's going to have to spend a little money like everyone else (except gtlm because they're "a tie to Le mans")

Btw: http://www.planetlemans.com/2013/05/25/wolf-racing-cars-to-build-daytona-prototype-for-2014/

What, you want the GTLM teams to spend more and go even faster? That will just exacerbate the problem.

Interesting news about the new DP chassis, (it is a chassis, right?). The more the merrier, this series desperately needs some good PR atm.

Edit: Walter Wolf Racing was a Canadian F1 team in the 70s, wonder if they're related.

 

[RACECAR]

Well, Ivan bellarosa has said that it is being built for Bmw, but will fit any engine. Ivan has also said that wolf factory will be the team racing the car at the Rolex 24 next year, but another team will take over. I'm going off of the current Bmw teams. I don't think sahlens will jump ship right after buying 2 Riley chassis for this year. That leaves Ganassi.

Good point about that. Thing is though, will Ganassi really be willing to leave the tried and true Riley (which has pretty much been there trusted chassis since their first season in 2004) for a brand new, unproven car?

 

[cnd01]

What, you want the GTLM teams to spend more and go even faster? That will just exacerbate the problem.

Interesting news about the new DP chassis, (it is a chassis, right?). The more the merrier, this series desperately needs some good PR atm.

Edit: Walter Wolf Racing was a Canadian F1 team in the 70s, wonder if they're related.

Wolf is an Italian chassis maker if I'm not mistaken. It is a chassis for the series. Gtlm is being treated like it's untouchable from aco spec. Thats what I mean. That means 9 constructors have made a chassis now assuming wolf gets the licensing from grand am.

 

[freshseth83]

Wolf is an Italian chassis maker if I'm not mistaken. It is a chassis for the series. Gtlm is being treated like it's untouchable from aco spec. Thats what I mean. That means 9 constructors have made a chassis now assuming wolf gets the licensing from grand am.

This is what Im talking about when I say "what don't you get", well this is it.

GTE/GTLM is ACO SPEC! They even put LM in the title to signify LeMans. You don't change the spec of the GTE class cars if you want to keep the link to LeMans. Which they do! Its bad enough they want to slow P2 (PC to a lesser extent but not a LeMans class) when that is a class linked to LeMans as well. So you're killing the link that you press for by purposely hampering the most successful class in GTE. Thats not going to sit well with arguably the most popular class/cars. If they wanted their own gt class rules, they could just stick with GTD. But they want the relationship with the ACO, so no, changing regulations to cars that go compete at LeMans is not going to happen without repercussions.

 

[cnd01]

This is what Im talking about when I say "what don't you get", well this is it.

GTE/GTLM is ACO SPEC! They even put LM in the title to signify LeMans. You don't change the spec of the GTE class cars if you want to keep the link to LeMans. Which they do! Its bad enough they want to slow P2 (PC to a lesser extent but not a LeMans class) when that is a class linked to LeMans as well. So you're killing the link that you press for by purposely hampering the most successful class in GTE. Thats not going to sit well with arguably the most popular class/cars. If they wanted their own gt class rules, they could just stick with GTD. But they want the relationship with the ACO, so no, changing regulations to cars that go compete at LeMans is not going to happen without repercussions.

What are they going to do, put imsa in sports car jail? Aco could care less about ties to America. Don panoz used his ties to get bids so people would actually show up to races. Gte class is going away in 5 years anyway due to manufacturer teams causing costs to skyrocket.

 

[LancerEvo7]

Gte class is going away in 5 years anyway due to manufacturer teams causing costs to skyrocket.

I very highly doubt that. Maybe it'll change, but it'll be around in one form or another.

 

[cnd01]

I very highly doubt that. Maybe it'll change, but it'll be around in one form or another.

That's basically what I'm saying. It's going to have a rule book bonfire in 5 years to stay as a class.

 

[hawkeye122]

That's basically what I'm saying. It's going to have a rule book bonfire in 5 years to stay as a class.

I kinda doubt it. GT racing is really the last bastion of "Real" cars going racing on the professional stage, not counting the BTCC. Pretty much all the race cars have nothing to do with their road-going counterparts any more.

 

[freshseth83]

What are they going to do, put imsa in sports car jail? Aco could care less about ties to America. Don panoz used his ties to get bids so people would actually show up to races. Gte class is going away in 5 years anyway due to manufacturer teams causing costs to skyrocket.

The more things you say the more its apparent that you just don't know what youre talking about. The ACO could "care less" about GM? Chrysler SRT (Fiat)? BMW? Chevy brags about their LM victories, commercials commemorating that race. Theyre one of the most decorated names in LeMans.

Not only that but your timeline is off, as is your ALMS attendance justification. GTE is not going away in 5 years. The only thing is a rumored unified GTE and GT3 ruleset. No radical rewrite, just more open for the competition to grow. Quite the opposite of your thinking.