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- gdwest1
2014 United Sports Car Championship
- Thread starter Earth
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- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
Well, at least GTLM (the old ALMS factory GT teams) keeps its choice in tire manufacturers.
We don't know how much money Continental Tires is bringing to the series.
Also, I find it interesting that the ALMS/IMSA group announced the tires rulings before Grand-Am...
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
What attitude? The Manufacturers make GT3 cars at a reasonable cost. They're more capable of keeping costs low than boutique outfits like Lola who just got rescued from the grave. Like I said, HPD (Honda) wouldn't be in P2 if what you and cnd are saying were true, nor would TRD (Toyota) have an interest.
Nissan supply engines. Toyota aren't in P2. If they were it would be a deal like HPD- Chassis and Engine (based off a production car). Chevy don't make the the 'Corvette' DP. It's a branding exercise running the car's likeness and a Chevy engine. Even Audi contracts Dallara to build their R18. Nothing excludes a manufacturer car in lmp2. It's a team and drivers, the 'factory' can't run the car.
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- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
Errrm, it's well known LMP2's are cost capped and manufacturer backing is not allowed, so it's true.
Also Continentals? Seriously this merger just sounds like "US shuts themselves away from the rest of the world". Not very inviting.
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
You still don't get it, do you? Never did I say a manufacturer could back the P2 cars. I said manufacturers are interested in having their cars in the top class! JUST like Audi is pushing for their GT3 cars in the latest stories. That's not hard to understand now, is it? 👍
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
Actually I do get it. Calm down Seth, no need for the extra's.
Err involvement is when you are with a team, if not directly running them but through technical partnerships, being given drivers, or money.
Pretty much every car has to have some degree of involvement from the factory of the manufacturer. There were many Lola's several years back. Lola might not have run any cars by themselves, but were still involved in the maintenance of the cars. Same for ORECA being the success story of the modern LMP2, and see Alpine, Caterham and Morgan as getting involved.
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
Just, No.Actually I do get it. Calm down Seth, no need for the extra's.
Like Nissan's GT Academy drivers in their P2 cars.
Your definition of involvement is obviously different from what I'm saying. It can't be a factory team. Simple as that. Their 'involvement' can't be on that scale where it's not run by a privateer team.
- 9,387
- Pittsburgh
- polarbear345
- 3,585
- Phoenix, AZ
- GTP_Snaeper
Spec Tires in the Prototype class makes no sense, LMPC and GTD it does, but why the Prototype class?
I believe the theory might be that the two specs are currently running a single brand of tire (P2 Michelin, DP Conti) anyways and since the Daytona Prototype teams are already investing to make their cars faster, it seems unfair for them to also have to invest in establishing tire partnerships to be competitive, especially with the P2's.
Also, by having one brand of tires on both specs of cars (and the Deltawing?) you have more control over performance and can adjust the tires (theorhetically) to keep the cars running closer together.
If you kept things open right now, the Continental tires would be run over by the Michelin-shod P2's... and that doesn't look good when you're Continental and you're dumping loads of cash into sponsoring a series. Again, as above, you could let the DP teams run their own tires, but that only adds to their already budget.
- 3,587
I assume that P2s, if extended an invitation, WOULD NOT run contis at Le Mans, because they simply wouldn't be competitive, based on what I have heard about them. They would have to readjust their setups/cars to running better tires (since I assume WEC would not change their rules at all next year regarding tires).
cnd, I can respect your opinion, but this spec tire crap, to me, is a huge blow that makes WEC immediately more appealing as a viewer, and diminishes the international appeal of USCR, because as I said on ALMS facebook post, are WEC p2 teams going to want to race at Sebring on continentals, when their cars and drivers are set up for something else? And P1s no longer get invitations to American races? It just gets sadder and sadder. It's obviously just my personal opinion, but to me, it's a crap deal to go for a crap tire for everyone. If conti isn't good, they don't deserve to look good. ALMS was always about finding the best innovation possible.
As the radio le mans guys said, open tires was one of the things that separated ALMS from other series. And if we only care about GT, let the series die and watch blancpain.
cnd, I can respect your opinion, but this spec tire crap, to me, is a huge blow that makes WEC immediately more appealing as a viewer, and diminishes the international appeal of USCR, because as I said on ALMS facebook post, are WEC p2 teams going to want to race at Sebring on continentals, when their cars and drivers are set up for something else? And P1s no longer get invitations to American races? It just gets sadder and sadder. It's obviously just my personal opinion, but to me, it's a crap deal to go for a crap tire for everyone. If conti isn't good, they don't deserve to look good. ALMS was always about finding the best innovation possible.
As the radio le mans guys said, open tires was one of the things that separated ALMS from other series. And if we only care about GT, let the series die and watch blancpain.
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- 7,177
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
My twitter account exploded today with tons of tweets from the sports cars world across the Atlantic, and I come here to check the news and I see lots of arguing. I'll try to keep it balanced and say this:
I don't like it. I dislike all aspects of spec racing and even BoP (what happened to Audi in the Blacpain Spa race is ridiculous, even the series organizer admits it) But I guess USCR is a series that tries to cover many grounds and ultimately risks failing them all. Any multi-class series need the "flagship cars". Does USCR have those ? ermmm .... not really, you get a supposed top class with three different kinds of cars (DP, DW, P2). Why? Not clear, but it seems that:
a) DP gets the Grand Am heritage and especially teams onboard. It's the logical choice for a "only in America" class, the sportscars equivalent to NASCAR cars;
b) DW is a meaningless addition, and a sad one at that (this from a Garage #56 Deltawing supporter). Panoz money and merger deal means it'll be around a bit more;
c) P2 ... a concession to the ALMS heritage, a litle reminder of a former "LE MANS" connection. They'll be Boped (slang term) in the USCR and I don't think we'll see many of those, if any, in 2015.
Another nail in their coffin is this spec tyre thing. This means that whoever chooses to race their P2 cars in America will never bring them over to La Sarthe. Then, what's the point of using them anyway?
DPs using spec tyres is normal, as is with PC obviously and even with GTD (GT3 cars in the Blancpain races use Pirelli). This leaves us with non-spec GT-LM, probably (if teams and drivers get interested) the most interesting class to watch in the entire USCR field.
I don't like it. I dislike all aspects of spec racing and even BoP (what happened to Audi in the Blacpain Spa race is ridiculous, even the series organizer admits it) But I guess USCR is a series that tries to cover many grounds and ultimately risks failing them all. Any multi-class series need the "flagship cars". Does USCR have those ? ermmm .... not really, you get a supposed top class with three different kinds of cars (DP, DW, P2). Why? Not clear, but it seems that:
a) DP gets the Grand Am heritage and especially teams onboard. It's the logical choice for a "only in America" class, the sportscars equivalent to NASCAR cars;
b) DW is a meaningless addition, and a sad one at that (this from a Garage #56 Deltawing supporter). Panoz money and merger deal means it'll be around a bit more;
c) P2 ... a concession to the ALMS heritage, a litle reminder of a former "LE MANS" connection. They'll be Boped (slang term) in the USCR and I don't think we'll see many of those, if any, in 2015.
Another nail in their coffin is this spec tyre thing. This means that whoever chooses to race their P2 cars in America will never bring them over to La Sarthe. Then, what's the point of using them anyway?
DPs using spec tyres is normal, as is with PC obviously and even with GTD (GT3 cars in the Blancpain races use Pirelli). This leaves us with non-spec GT-LM, probably (if teams and drivers get interested) the most interesting class to watch in the entire USCR field.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
I understand, but at the same time I think that the weak have already died in America being LMP1 and Gx classes from each series. The strong DP class is evolving to become faster(isn't that the main reason people don't like it?) I also don't understand the irrational hate of everything NASCAR as they have come up with a prototype formula on their first try that is providing a better on track product long term than what Don Panoz could come up with ever since founding Imsa. Ask Dyson and Pickett how tough the competition is in DP. Neither had much success. In fact, both teams were mid pack at best the majority of the time. With the WEC in play, the bored rich people would rather race the most prestigious race tracks in the world than a 24 hour race at a roval and a 12 hour on an abandoned airport. I don't like Audi coming in every year at Sebring and talking about the good test data they got after driving circles and peeing on the field the entire race. All the Le Mans series revolve around Le Mans only. That makes the big American endurance races second bill to Le Mans. The premier American sports car series shouldn't play second bill to anyone period. That's why grand am was able to exist along with really good DP car counts and close racing. There are 14 DP that are racing the remainder of the events this season in grand am. There are 14 or 15 prototypes split in 3 classes for the rest of the alms races. At least 7 are spec prototypes. That's why there's more of the Calvin Fish approved argy bargy in grand am. The cars are actually close enough on track where they can make contact. The few times the alms LMP1 and LMP2 cars have been close, argy bargy has happened there too.
What does worry me is that history shows that a unified American sports car series does not work. I think the real winner in this buyout is Don Panoz. He got rid of his money pit in the alms, and I bet he's waiting for the massive poo storm to happen in the USCR if too much is done to please everyone.
What does worry me is that history shows that a unified American sports car series does not work. I think the real winner in this buyout is Don Panoz. He got rid of his money pit in the alms, and I bet he's waiting for the massive poo storm to happen in the USCR if too much is done to please everyone.
- 3,587
Well I suppose there's no point in me complaining about it. I don't like Audi using Sebring simply for some kind of testing/promotional thing, but it was a mutual existence--I imagine they pulled in a fair share of viewers with the kinds of exciting things they've done, technologically. And even if they don't come back, I'd still like to see some european P2 teams given an opportunity to race over here with USCR. I just don't think it would happen, given the way regulations are going. At best we could invite GT teams. I think the GTLM open spec is a saving grace, but like I said it isn't fair to say only one class matters. Oh well. I won't write the series off. I'll watch, I'll promote, I'll cheer. I'm more a believer in bringing everything up in quality rather than dumbing other classes down, so maybe that's my major beef. Why does DP need to be able to compete with P2? Who cares if they are different classes and thus different championships? It's like, Dyson can fall behind P2 cars and still get 2nd in class points. So I don't really get what they're doing with the points system, maybe.
I seriously hope you're wrong. I imagine you feel the same...
I seriously hope you're wrong. I imagine you feel the same...
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- 3,019
- Essex
I can't see the future of the p2 class being very bright, there's no point in a team running a LE MANS prototype car if they can't use it in the race it's named after!
Oh and cnd, le mans is regarded as the worlds most famous endurance race. Ofcourse the american races will be second best.
Oh and cnd, le mans is regarded as the worlds most famous endurance race. Ofcourse the american races will be second best.
- 3,019
- Essex
cnd01
Definitely disagree! That conversation is for another time though.
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
It's a poor poor move. There is NOTHING going for having an LMP2 going in this. Nothing.
- 8,016
- GTP_Royalton
Im looking over the 2013 Le Mans LMP1 entry list and all the cars are on Michelin tires. 17/22 LMP2 cars were on Dunlop tires.
Spec tires have made their way into most top motorsport categories, NASCAR, Indycar, F1, they've all been on the same tire for some years.
With so much change and new rules about to happen next year I think having a tire war would have just complicated it all needlessly. Im sure USCR, F1, Indycar etc would all love different tire makes, but its not quite possible for them right now.
Continental has to step their game up, though. The tires have to be capable of double stints.
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- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
- 8,016
- GTP_Royalton
It may get to that point in USCR, hopefully. I just dont think it was possible for them to do it year 1. They already have the Continental contract, and Continental tires are way behind Michelin tires in every way possible. I dont think Continental could catch up in one year. Im sure I remember reading somewhere they were interested in different tires...for the future. Hopefully they keep their word
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
Well teams who won't be able to race at Le Mans without major problems due to tyres being totally different for the US. Also cars need tyres to run on. Ask Goodyear what it means to have a bad set of tyres in NASCAR. Or Michelin in Formula One. Saying what you said is like saying "doesn't matter if they run on squares".
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
What is the attraction in running an LMP2 which is totally not designed for the rubber it will race on? And will be unable to race (competitively) overseas should the team wish?
Why could they not just use GT3? Easily the most popular GT class worldwide. Another example of "going our own way" that is just going to result in this series being attractive to anyone barring current Grand Am teams and maybe what remains of ALMS.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
Furinkazen
Once again: it only affects one team for one race, so I don't see the big deal especially when all the LMP2 cars race on the same tires.
Full gt3 would be a blessing. I'm all for that. I do want the prototypes to stay unique and as far away from the ACO as possible though.
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
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- LMSCorvetteGT2's Mom's House
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