- 7,938
- LMSCorvetteGT2's Mom's House
- GTP_LancerEvo7
To be honest, I think that was their intent from the beginning.
2014 United Sports Car Championship
- Thread starter Earth
- 6,133 comments
- 266,458 views
To be honest, I think that was their intent from the beginning.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Surely if it did, I know many GTE teams that may become American outfits in Europe racing.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
Furinkazen
There are many difficulties and a fair amount of risk in getting racecars and drivers overseas to race. Heck, there was a DP driver who got barred from America for years to come because he didn't have all the right info with him. (Cochet was his last name) Peter Baron has said that there's a large enough market in America alone that there is no need to run the same exact classes as the wec.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I don't get why people are accepting of this U.S. isolationism of racing. I mean I get the feeling that Nascar don't need to have international relations and will thrive without them.
- 3,019
- Essex
I'm just hoping the lmp2 teams decide to move to the WEC. May aswell take part in a series that supports them!
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to start...
This mentality is why companies rather back Nascar and groups with massive nascar influence than venture out into the world of international racing. It's also why most drivers stay in the states and settle for less technical technological auto sports. I guess the only hope for the US is IZOD.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
LMSCorvetteGT2
What's wrong with NASCAR? This attitude is why grand am was founded in the first place. Racing is about marketing these days. Thats why so many companies sponsor NASCAR. It's racing based on marketing rather than seeing which bored rich man has the deepest pockets.
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
In that case with this isolationism, why did ALMS fold and never attract big grids whereas the LMES / LMS / WEC did and still do?
I was sure racing was about getting your car on track and seeing who was fastest, not solely a marketing exercise. What are you talking about with "which bored rich man has the deepest pockets"?? That statement makes no sense.
- 3,587
The technology that helps our environment and betters racing across the globe...why do you think the EPA is bothering to work with ALMS? I'm sure they won't give much of a crap about the new series, because I'm sure there won't be that much of a focus on Green-X, etc.
Again, my point, why on earth do P2s have to compete with a SEPARATE class of DPs? NASCAR is just trying to make their DPs look good by bringing down how competitive P2s are, not the opposite, which would be to uplift the entire field. I would be surprised if they developed DPs to be faster, safer, more green, etc., when they don't need to, since they already provide a good show for the crowd.
You have to admit, cnd, that it is utterly unfair to turn the ALMS people love into Grand-AM. It is not, it cannot be, it will not survive the transition. There needs to be a lot more give and take, or else I'm convinced this is just a friggin take down. Also, every Le Mans series in the world is based on that one race at Sarthe. So yeah I do think it's important. I think it's important to maintain European viewership & relationships with ELMS/WEC. To open up American viewers to what some of the brilliant European tracks and teams are like. And I don't believe I'm alone in this.
Everyone loves close racing. And I can't think of a single ALMS race in its history, that I've watched, where there wasn't nail-bittingly close racing in at least one of the classes. Usually GTE, but sometimes P2, PC, GTC. I've never sat at an ALMS race, which favors technology over dumbing everyone down to the same level, and been bored. Not once, ever. There were certain cars that pulled away from the field. But you know what happened for most? They found ways to compete. By bettering their technology, tires, setups, strategies. Sure there is always a certain amount of concessions, but I don't think that's quite the same thing as speccing an entire field. The cars perform different at different tracks and come to their lap times in different ways. Their cars have strengths and weaknesses--as do the tires (think of Falken)--which as consumers is great to see.
I get it, ALMS is not going to get a lot of say in the new series. That's abundantly clear. I think GTE's tire range may just be a pity call, and perhaps a good one since it means a team like Falken can stay, and Corvette can go to Le Mans and just run different tires there. Because after Simonsen's crash, the worst thing you can do is go to Le Mans on anything but the best tires. I dunno. I have no issue with Grand-AM in the way they do things for their series--it works, and it works well. But applying it broad-stroke to a Le Mans series is just ludicrous. There has to be more dialogue between the way the two were run when separate.
EDIT: If it were up to me, I think I would take P2 the way it is, GT2 the way it is, DP the way it is, and the big GT field from Grand-AM the way it is, and just run them together. Cut the challenge classes (love them though I do), cut GT-X or whatever the heck that one car runs in. Four classes, doing their thing their way. Everyone wins, IMO.
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- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
There is plenty wrong with it, and I'm a massive Nascar fan and you can find my views on that in the proper thread. Also I wouldn't call GT racing boring, if anything it has become very competitive and to see it ruined with some of the best teams coming out of the U.S. by this merger is sad. Nascar companies sponsor these teams because it is easy and open.
With people catching on to WEC like the FIA wanted, and more groups jumping in the competitiveness is quite amazing and will gain further ground. If you want to look to the past 10 years as reason why Americans should invest in international racing like Le Mans that is the wrong outlook due to the rules vastly changing. I don't see how marketing is an exercise of racing.
You say that technology based racing isn't close and that is one reason you have issue with it but then go on to say it isn't marketable and that is why it isn't worth it... Obviously American auto groups want it their way and yet again think the international groups should come to them
As much as I love Nascar they should take an example from American car manufactures competing on the international level. Nascar rather live as a relic with a modern exterior then actually modernize and be more relevant to the supply side (every day road cars).
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
I'd rather see 14 relic DP's closely racing than 3 LMP1 cars when 2 of them break before the halfway point in every race and hold up the LMP2 field when they do finish. It's different overseas because sports car racing is vastly more popular than in America. 319 million in America. 2 million are sports car fans half of those being alms and half being grand am. 75 million are NASCAR fans btw
- 3,587
Ideally those P1 teams would now transition down, and hopefully a few DP teams up, to make the field better. P2 is potentially pretty competitive (probably due to more cost effective), just as competitive as DP if they can get a few more entrants.
As for the merger, I have no qualm with concessions being made by both series. But what you seem to be favoring (correct me if I'm wrong) is an entirely Grand-AM style of doing things in the new series. I don't think it's fair to alienate either side of the viewership. And in fact it may make more sense to do something entirely new, eventually, rather than just a mash-up. But for now do you not see it as a strong-arm into a one-way street? I could be seeing it wrong, but from what it seems like from the perspective of a Le Mans guy, is that the people running the show are taking away the integral things that made ALMS what it was, and saying "this is the way we do things."
Further, without technological innovation geared toward efficiency, what possible connection does our sport have to the rest of the world? To reality outside of the track? I'm not saying you are wrong to want close racing, but like I said I think the goal should be to elevate the racing to new heights.
I once said that, eventually, Le Mans style racing will host vehicles with alternate energy such as electric--and will be the flagship series to do it. I think the cars could go that direction, and are, in a sense, headed there. It would take a lot to convince me USCR is interested in anything of the like.
As for the merger, I have no qualm with concessions being made by both series. But what you seem to be favoring (correct me if I'm wrong) is an entirely Grand-AM style of doing things in the new series. I don't think it's fair to alienate either side of the viewership. And in fact it may make more sense to do something entirely new, eventually, rather than just a mash-up. But for now do you not see it as a strong-arm into a one-way street? I could be seeing it wrong, but from what it seems like from the perspective of a Le Mans guy, is that the people running the show are taking away the integral things that made ALMS what it was, and saying "this is the way we do things."
Further, without technological innovation geared toward efficiency, what possible connection does our sport have to the rest of the world? To reality outside of the track? I'm not saying you are wrong to want close racing, but like I said I think the goal should be to elevate the racing to new heights.
I once said that, eventually, Le Mans style racing will host vehicles with alternate energy such as electric--and will be the flagship series to do it. I think the cars could go that direction, and are, in a sense, headed there. It would take a lot to convince me USCR is interested in anything of the like.
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- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
Tower Turn 13
P2 would be the best racing in America no doubts if the DP and PC classes didn't exist. DP is cheaper operating cost than p2 plus it gets so much more tv air time being the fastest and flagship class of 2 or 3 classes (if you call gx a class, I dont), so it steals the majority of teams. PC is even cheaper, but it's not a flagship class and doesn't get near the air time on tv it deserves, so it's not as popular as the DP in terms of car counts.
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
In that case why did they even bother with P2 then?
- 3,019
- Essex
Well ofcourse p2 would be the best if the others didnt exist... it would have no competition ahaha
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
What the hell are you quoting those numbers of running cars from?
I don't need you telling me rating numbers, like you said one is promoted quite extremely. The reason it is more popular overseas is because it isn't treated like an alien planet it is given the same respect as other motorsports even when against F1 which is by far the number one marketed racing series of them all.
- 3,915
- California
- gdwest1
This isn't a debate about NASCAR vs Endurance Racing.
LMP isn't popular in America, but noone is giving it a chance. Who knows, it may have flourished under the new regs for 2014 (Porsche anyone?). Like it or not, the P2 car count DID go up from last year (Although the number of teams did not).
Part of the reason P2 isn't popular is the PC class. I reckon if there wasnt a PC field, thenwe'd have as many as 3 or 4 more P2 cars from the likes of CORE Autosport among others.
I don't hate the DP formula, I think it works pretty well. But like everyone else is saying, I don't like close racing for the sake of being close. I like close racing because 2 companies want to be the best they can be.
There are alot of things the 24 Hours of Le Mans brought to the world- Disc brakes being a prime example. If a DP style of racing was set-up instead, I think it's fair to say those achievements would have taken longer.
Look at the fuel mileage you can get from a new Audi. TFSI and TDi have allowed consumers to go further on a tank of fuel than they were at one point able to, and it is (Somewhat) more affordable when you purchase it with a Volkswagen badge.
I think DP's are decent. Sure, they're visually very plain, but so are NASCARs. That's kinda the point though, isn't it?
The issue would be solved if Ford/Chrysler REALLY wanted to try some new stuff out. I'd like to think an EcoBoost Oreca/Oak would have done fantastically. Chevrolet have the Corvette, and look at them- Usually contenders for a win.
Try and tell me the ALMS doesn't produce close racing. I can dig for 30 minutes and find examples from races I've watched.
Close finish in P1
GTE
GTE
That was like 10 minutes of searching for highlights.
Did you watch the P2 class when Conquest was still running? Always exciting seeing them battle with Level 5 every race, on equal footing. Like it or not, the P2 class is somewhat like DP, not at the cutting edge of technology, but it still produces close racing every time they're raced.
- 3,587
At Mosport everyone was close except P1, which won't exist next year. I'm pretty sure every other class was nose-to-tail to the finish line, more or less. The GTC battle was super close until one got punted off the track...
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
You do realize why Nascar is being talked about Hawkeye, don't you? I have a feeling you do not.
I agree with the rest though.
I agree with the rest though.
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- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
Bottom line is this merger could have been great, but instead Grand-Am / NASCAR are just intent on sealing themselves off from everyone. Won't work.
- 3,587
Yes if the word "merger" were true.
- 3,019
- Essex
I think "takeover" is more appropriate.
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
I agree. Auto racing is the one sport where it is internationally accepted on a wide scale. ALMS bridged the US/Everyone else divide better than anything else, for all its faults. It may not have been hugely famous, but they didn't have small audience numbers either. I've been to two different tracks, Mid-Ohio and Road Atlanta, and seen a sprint and endurance race. Neither crowd was small. I booked my hotel for this year's Petit LeMans in March. The best room I could find was over ten miles away, despite multiple hotels right there in Braselton. And that was the last room available in that hotel.
ALMS is not unpopular.
How I see this going is that most similarities to international series will be phased out over time. If that happens the only large market sports car series in the US will be as different as all our other sports.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
Furinkazen
Grand am sealed itself off for 10 years, and it's done just as well as the alms. It's a bailout of the alms, not a merger btw. What else do you expect? Grand am isn't going to bailout the alms and adopt its mediocre system. NASCAR sees money to be made, and it isn't the way of the alms.
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
I said the same sentiments months ago. ALMS lost it's luster because an old man gave up and sold out. This is no merger. It's GA 2.0 with GTE added. Then GTE won't be running the WEC BOP on top of it. Screwing teams like Viper and Vette again. This time it's not tires but the performance balance factors.
GA has NOT done well on it's own merit! It's kept afloat by NASCAR. It's teams are subsidized and catered to by using outdated technology for years on end and money given to them for staying.
GA has NOT done well on it's own merit! It's kept afloat by NASCAR. It's teams are subsidized and catered to by using outdated technology for years on end and money given to them for staying.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Which has been the case for a long time now, NASCAR think they have the best formula and like some of their fans they use the ratings number to justify that point. Though the drivers would tell you that NASCAR could do plenty more.
Thanks and you expanded on it better than I can, I've only been to tracks on the west coast and not that often. It's frustrating but to me I think that is the key part to the two year rule change, to drift further and further away. Maybe the V8 Supercars is what NASCAR is looking at but if NASCAR make this an American based International Series, they need to make it worth it and expand to other countries. Strictly U.S. isn't going to work.
Also you're correct ALMS wasn't unpopular at all, it was given up on though by Panoz.
Thank you! Yet his notions of GA and its greatness have been seen. The same guys that run massive teams in NASCAR are that same big names that make GA known, that isn't coincidence as Seth shows.
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